Interview with Messianic Rabbi Derek Leman

A couple weeks back, I mentioned an upcoming blog interview with Derek Leman, Messianic Rabbi of Congregation Tikvat David in Atlanta, Georgia.

This was facilitated by the folks over at ThreadsMedia, who are publishing a Feasts of the Lord kit, containing some great materials for Christians interested in the Feasts:

  • Derek's short and easy-to-read book, Feast: Finding Your Place at the Table of Tradition
  • A Feast-oriented music CD from some gentile Christian artists and some down-to-earth personal stories from gentile Christians who started celebrating the Feasts of the Lord.
  • A DVD of Derek and some friends celebrating a sabbath meal.

If you're a Christian the least bit interested in the Feasts of the Lord, please check out Derek's book, or the whole Feast kit. Both are geared towards gentile Christians who don't know where to begin in keeping God's feasts, a great starting point.

Below is a few questions from myself, some friends, and some questions from you fine blog readers, asking Derek questions about his book and why gentile Christians ought to keep the Feasts of the Lord.

Derek and I don't see quite eye-to-eye on everything, and you can see some of that in this interview. That's OK. We come from different backgrounds and different theologies to end up where we are today. To each his own.

Without further ado, the interview with Messianic Rabbi Derek Leman.

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Q. In your preface to Feast, you introduce yourself as someone who is "converting to Judaism". In the same breath, you say, "Yes, I am a Christian." I must admit, I was surprised to read this! I can hear my gentile Christian friends saying, "We don't need anything but Jesus. What's this 'converting to Judaism' stuff?"

A. Converting to Judaism is a misleading expression. It gives the idea that someone like me is changing religions. That's not it at all. I am joining a people, the people of Israel. Israel has always been a people you could join. Caleb and Ruth are biblical examples of non-Jews who joined Israel.

That said, conversion is not for most people. There is no reason in Christ to convert. My family and I are converting because our life calling and destiny is with the Jewish people. We believe God has called us to convert. It has nothing to do with being holier than someone else or thinking that being Jewish makes someone better. All such thinking is false.

Q. You said that your act of converting to Judaism is "not for everybody." What about the Feasts themselves - are they only for people interested in Judaism?

A. The premise of my book is that Christians have the freedom to celebrate the Biblical feasts. I do not believe that they are commandments for non-Jews. I think there are many reasons why Christians would want to keep the feasts that Jesus and the apostles kept which point to Messiah.


Q. A Christian recently related to me, "I know certain Christians are wrong for trying to turn Jews into gentiles. But you're doing the reverse! You're trying to turn me into a Jew with all these Jewish feasts and Jewish sabbath."

A. I do not think it is right to compel Christians to keep the Sabbath and the feasts of Israel. But this is theology you and I disagree about. I think Acts 15 is very clear and reflects what the Torah itself teaches: God has special commands for Israel to separate them from the nations and these commands are not required of non-Jews.

Q. How would you answer a Christian critic who says you are "Judaizing" by your preaching to gentiles of the Feasts and the Sabbath?

A. My message is, "These feasts are your heritage and you didn't know it." The truth is that the historical separation of Christianity from its Jewish heritage is a sad example of prejudice. The Romans were not favorable to the Jewishness of Jesus and they distorted his image and removed Biblical traditions from the church. I am not compelling Christians to be Jews, but encouraging them to discover their roots.



Q. A Messianic Jewish friend tells me that the Feasts are for the Jews only. Sure, gentiles can celebrate them if they so choose, but they belong to Israel only; he says Passover is an Israelite festival only, for example, and is not meant for Christians. What do you say to this?

A. Passover is unique and different from the other holidays in terms of a Christian's relation to it. When Jesus said, "As often as you do this, do it in remembrance of me," he did not mean "as often as you eat a cracker and drink a thimble of juice." He meant, "as often as you celebrate Passover." I think Passover is something Christians should celebrate. As for the other holidays, they are requirements for Jews and heritage for Christians.


Q. One of my blog readers, Pam, asks,
"The question I have is...if I start doing this do I have to cook? I want to think about this and come back to it when I have more time but you know, I'm pretty much a person to whom one day is like another and holidays interrupt my routine and make a lot more work for me and it is usually work I don't enjoy that much, like cooking. People who are into Christmas would call me a Scrooge. It was easy for me to bag those celebrations but in honesty, this is probably one reason that I drag my feet on adopting Jewish holidays. I also don't think it is necessary so I lack motivation. I know that in the Kingdom, if there are holidays to celebrate, they will be the Jewish feasts and festivals but I'm hoping that when I am glorified, I won't have to cook, clean, or clean up after."

A. I don't think Pam should feel compelled to keep the Jewish feasts, other than observing the Passover Seder and remembering the body and blood of Messiah. I'm sad that she doesn't get the joy of cooking and preparing and feasting, but people all have different pleasures I suppose.


Q. Sabbath might be called the first of God's Feasts, since God instituted it long before Sinai, long before Israel even existed. There seems to be a lot of confusion about this feast -- Sunday? Saturday? A Christian friend asks, "is going to church on Sunday an acceptable sabbath celebration?"

A. I do not agree with those Christian writers who turn the Sabbath into a principle (get more rest). The Sabbath is what it is: Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. You either keep it or you don't. As I have said, non-Jews are not required to keep the Sabbath, so your friend need not worry about whether Sunday church is keeping the Sabbath.


Q. You discussed Hanukkah as the last chapter in Feast. Blog reader J. Gabrielle asks,
"I see from the New Testament that Jesus celebrated Hanukkah. Can you explain the significance of that holiday?"

A. Wow, that's what my chapter in the book is all about. I hope Gabrielle will buy it.


Q. In Feast, you talk about the importance of tradition. When many Christians look down on tradition as stuffy, superfluous ritual, and even many Messianic Jews look at some traditions, such as the Talmud, as unnecessary. In a world that frowns on tradition, can you sum up why you place so much importance on it?

A. People who say they hate tradition don't realize how much tradition plays a part in their lives. Even the most vanilla Protestant evangelical church service has some tradition in it (I address this in the book). We have replaced tradition with entertainment in our world. Our children are much the poorer for it. In a traditional home, children feel secure and learn from the observances. Another reason people dislike rituals and traditions is because they buy into the unbiblical idea that physical things are unimportant. There is no such thing as spirituality divorced from the physical. Spirituality is physical and the sooner people realize that, the sooner worship will get deeper in those vanilla churches.


Q. There are some Feasts that are straight from God ("God's Feasts"), commanded in the Torah to be kept eternally, and then there are other Feasts that are Jewish tradition ("Jewish feasts"). Hanukkah, and Purim are examples of Jewish traditions. Do you distinguish between these? In light of how you place importance on tradition, how do you approach national Jewish traditions compared to Scriptural commandments?

A. Hanukkah and Purim are different from the feasts of Leviticus. They are not symbolic of God's work in the world on the same level as the primary feasts. Still, they are valuable traditions and our family celebrates them religiously, as festivals reminding us how many times God has saved his people from destruction.


Q. On a related note, your Feast book contains chapters dedicated to all but 2 of the Feasts of the Lord: Unleavened Bread and First Fruits. Additionally, it includes a chapter on Hanukkah. Can you describe why you chose to address these particular feasts?

A. I don't see Unleavened Bread as separate from Passover. As for Firstfruits, I had to choose six feasts. Firstfruits is really just one observance in the midst of Passover week. By itself, it does not have enough symbolism to go into the length and depth I went into for the other feasts. I felt that teaching Christians about Hanukkah would be more valuable.


Q. A Christian friend relates, "All the feasts and sabbath sound good, and it's fine for Jews to keep, but I'm not under the Law, so why put myself under it by keeping them?"
Paul says in Romans 14 that while some consider one day more holy than others, other folks consider every day alike, and he finishes by saying, "Each one should be convinced in his own mind...do so for the Lord and give thanks to God."

A. I have already mentioned several times that I do not believe non-Jews are required to keep the identifiers of Torah (Sabbath, dietary law, circumcision, fringes). My interpretation of Romans 14 is very much along those line. I think it is about Paul rebuking the Roman Christians (non-Jews) for mocking Judaism. Paul is using rhetoric and we should not assume from his words that Paul thinks any less of the Sabbath than his fellow Jews. He is simply telling Gentiles, "The one who keeps the Sabbath does it for God; who are you to judge God's servant obeying what God commanded him?" Romans 14 is yet another text in the New Testament that affirms Jewish observance of Torah and Gentile freedom.


Q. To the outside observer, it seems you are considering the Feasts holy, yet it goes without saying that many Christians do not consider them holy. Do Paul's words in Romans 14 apply here, meaning that it doesn't matter if some Christians do not consider the Feasts of the Lord to be holy?

A. Christians should consider Jewish observance of God's commands holy, even when those commands do not apply to them. If I know God commanded someone else to do something, if I stand in the way of their obedience, I am fighting with God.


Q. Can you sum up why you encourage Messiah-followers, even gentile Christians, to keep the Feasts?

A. Passover, Firstfruits, and Weeks we celebrate the death, resurrection, of our Messiah and his imparting the Holy Spirit to us. Rosh HaShanah, Yom Kippur, and Tabernacles celebrate the return of Jesus, the coming judgment of God, and the World to Come where we will dwell with God. The themes and truths of the Jewish holidays follow God's complete plan for this world. They are the root from which Christianity sprang and the history reasons the church had for leaving them behind were unsound.

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Thanks Derek! And thanks for the questions all you fine blog readers and friends.

50 comments:

  1. Excellent interview, Judah and Derek. I really enjoyed it.

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  2. This was awesome; I applaud your boldness and openness in bringing this to light.
    I have been to Derek's website and have had dialogue with him. I appreciate his honesty and committment to what he believes.
    thank you, Judah,
    mid
    theisraelconnection.blogspot.com

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  3. Derek Leman is teaching heresy! One law is for Jew and Gentile alike, says Torah! Isaiah 56 addresses Gentiles keeping the covenant and Sabbath! I felt there was a problem with Derek a few years ago and this proves it! What about the words of Yeshua in Matthew 5, concerning doing and teaching Torah? REPENT DEREK!

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  4. Banner,

    Derek and I disagree about this. I think gentiles ought to keep Torah, especially the Feasts.

    Derek kind of disagrees. He believes gentiles should keep the Feasts too (in fact, he's written a book to this end), but he believes they aren't required to.

    Even though we disagree, it's OK, because we both believe that Torah is good, holy, righteous. There is delight in keeping the Torah, even for gentiles.

    We both agree on that.

    We merely disagree on semantics. I believe "should" and "must", Derek and Gene believe "ought to", "can".

    I'm tired of the heretic talk. I've been called one by fellow believers in Messiah way too many times now. We can find God even if our theology isn't perfect.

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  5. Judith,
    The concept of saying we believe in Yeshua and that is common ground can only be founded in who we say HE is. HE is not a teacher of obedience to Torah for one of HIS followers and a teacher of rebellion to Torah to another. There is one Torah for all. Teaching that the commandments are suggestions instead of commandments is heresy. Again, what does Yeshua say in Matthew 5? What do we do with the clear teaching of Torah? Derek is going the way of the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis who espouse that Gentiles only keep the Noahide commandments. But let Yah be True and every man a liar. I just came out of the professing Christian movement that says we all believe in Jesus so we're all OK while teaching lawlessness. Rebellion and lawlessness is condemned by Messiah. HE said clearly in Matthew 7 that those whom HE did not know and would not enter HIS kingdom are those who practice lawlessness. So Derek's teaching allows one to think they can stay in lawlessness and be in Yah's kingdom. It cannot be! With all due respect; It is heresy.

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  6. I'm sorry I called you "Judith" in my last post. Didn't mean to. My hands type faster than I think sometimes. Brother I pray you will really think about this. We are not all on the same page when one teaches rebellion and the other does not. We have to stand for the Truth. Torah is Truth and beside Torah there is not Truth. All statements are verified as true based on whether they reflect Torah or not. If we are not careful we will allow our flesh's desire to be a part of something that is bigger than ourselves and link arms with non-scriptural teachings and be led down the path to heresy and rebellion. We don't have to belong to the messianic movement and it's bent to the teaching of the Rabbis. They got it wrong when Yeshua came the first time and they still do. We do too. The only way we will know if we are wrong is to take every thought captive to the Truth of Torah! Please understand, I am not trying to be disrespectful or divisive. I am simply called by Yah to take a stand in proclaiming the Truth. People are dying believing and practicing a lie. -Rev 22

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  7. Who's "Yah"? (In Russian it means "I"). Who's "Judith":)!?

    No, Banner Kidd - I don't believe that Gentile believers practice lawlessness by not following specific laws as given to Israel. This is because they DO follow G-d's laws by loving G-d and fellow man (when they do, of course).

    The Hebrew patriarchs didn't have the Torah and Laws of Moses, but they were not lawless, heretics, or enemies of G-d, were they??? Was Noah? This is because G-d didn't expect them to follow what He has not given them - their righteousness was imputed to them because of their trust and love for G-d and what they were given to observe.

    However, G-d has put His laws in ALL men (Jews or Gentiles) even without Torah (the book). Gentiles will be judged by the law in their hearts (see Romans 2:14), while Jews will be judged by both (that's why Jews will have greater condemnation when they transgress and will be judged first). See Romans 2:9.

    In the past, I think me and Judah agreed on that much - Gentiles are free to follow Torah as given to Israel by Moses if they so choose - I believe there's freedom in that. It's between them and their G-d. But, if they do not follow Torah as given by G-d through Moses. But if they love Yeshua and G-d, and their fellow man - I don't believe G-d will condemn them for not following the laws and customs of Israel.

    Oy!

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  8. Banner,

    Most I'll say is, Derek isn't encouraging gentiles to move away from Torah. Quite the opposite. He's encouraging gentiles to keep the Feasts. He wrote a book to that end.

    If Derek told his congregation's gentiles to stop keeping the Feasts and the Sabbath and the commandments, then I would side with you, then he would be teaching disobedience.

    Beyond that, I will let Derek defend himself. I don't agree with him, so I don't fancy defending him. :-)

    Shalom.

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  9. I believe Torah preceded Sinai, and I believe Scripture bears that out. HE did not give different laws for different people. There is one law for Jew and Gentile alike, so Torah tells us.

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  10. @Banner,

    Yep, I agree. God's commandments pre-date Sinai. Gene and I had a big long debate about this already. See Torah and the Gentiles.

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  11. I understand how you would be hesitant to defend him because there is no defense. I welcome his attempt to defend himself. But Judah, quite honestly, think about it. By saying that for a Gentile believer to keep Torah is just a good idea if they want to and if they don't want to they don't have to, he has, in effect told them they don't have to and that is false teaching! If you believe we are all to keep Torah you must agree with that. Take a stand for the Truth. It won't make you popular but it will make Yah pleased with you.

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  12. Amen, brother. We must stand for the Truth. There is a lawlessness afoot in Messianic circles just as there is the professing Christian circles and both are a stench in the nostrils of Yah! Additions and subtractions from Torah are the very thing Yah forbade!

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  13. I regret that I must break off the conversation for now. I have to leave for our men's gathering tonight. This will definitely be a topic of discussion. The Truth is worth contending for. We are told to do so in Jude. Contend for the faith. The Word, Torah is faith, since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word (Torah) of Yah!

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  14. Banner,

    I've taken a stand for Torah more than you know! And have been called a heretic for it many times. A graceless, saved-by-works heretic. :-)

    I'm coming to believe that no one is going to agree with one's theology 100%. They don't have to. And they're not a heretic because of it. Derek's deviation from my own theologies is not enough to abandon loving him as a brother in Messiah.

    Shalom.

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  15. Judah,

    Very good interview, I enjoyed that as well.

    Mr. Kidd, get a grip.

    In Christ,
    The Heretic

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  16. "@Gene....

    Hallelu-Yah

    :)"

    I know, Judah... it's just that crazy sacred-namers people get to me... and of course, they accuse Jews of corrupting G-d's "real" name while THEY (who don't know a lick of Hebrew apart from their own catch-phrase lingo) have restored them.

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  17. Banner Kidd:

    Is that your name or a handle?

    Some people with a small amount of study and little knowledge like to call others heretics. If you knew the very Torah you proclaim to be a requirement for Gentiles you would know the Torah itself teaches otherwise and the New Testament agrees.

    I'd debate you, but your aggressive rhetoric suggests you are always the teacher and never the student. Such a shame.

    Derek Leman
    derek4messiah.wordpress.com

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  18. Derek,
    You said, "If you knew the very Torah you proclaim to be a requirement for Gentiles you would know the Torah itself teaches otherwise and the New Testament agrees."

    My response is: show me in Scripture, in context, that this is true. I can't see it in Scripture anywhere. You may call me aggressive if you like. That's OK. I am aggressive in getting at the Truth. You are a teacher who affects many people. I am too. Our accountability is greater and is public.

    I stand by what I say. I believe it is heresy to teach that Yahweh changes when Scripture says HE doesn't. I believe it is the arrogance of the nation of Israel that always makes a difference or shows partiality between Jew and Gentile when Yahweh never does. All are guilty by the same Torah!

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  19. By the way, Banner Kidd is my given name, not just a handle. I was named for my dad.

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  20. Judah,
    very interesting post, although I haven't read 100% of it right now.

    Sounds like a pretty cool step in the right direction for Christians. Of course, as I'm sure is the case with you Judah, I disagree with lots of things said in the Q&A.

    I definitely don't see Acts 15 as being some sort of ruling that goyim believing in Rebbe Yehoshua are bound only by the Noachide Laws. Clearly, as in modern Pharisaic/Rabbinic Judaism, Noachide Laws are implemented as a precursor to eventual conversion to Judaism. This conversion takes place after the Noachide Goy understands the Torah enough to make the decision to convert to Judaism.

    This is the same thing outlined in Acts 15 - that the returning goyim will hear the Torah preached in the synagogues according to the custom. Therefore, so as not to burden them with all the mitzvot at once, they will hear them and apply them over time. And after a full year, the whole Torah they will have heard, and they should by then implement all the basics of Torah observance in their lives. The last sentence is just my opinion.


    Also, the word Judaize is used incorrectly here (as it is commonly incorrectly used). The word Judaize, as seen in the original contexts where the word is used, is ACTUALLY referring to an action by a goy of converting to Judaism, i.e. becoming Jewish. And that is actually the correct usage of the term Judaize in Gal. 2:14 - in other words, the goyim in that passage were Judaizing themselves - i.e. converting to Judaism.

    -Aaron

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  21. Banner Kidd...

    Don't you just wish sometimes that those arrogant Jews (the oppressors of the Gentiles) are done away with? It must make your blood boil to see such pride, such partiality in Jews - the boastful Israel, still thinking they have something special, trying to keep the Gentiles down. Who do Jews think they are - do they think they are still "chosen"?!

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  22. Stop right there, Gene. You're baiting and not asking an honest question.

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  23. @Aaron,

    It is interesting to note that in Acts 15, 3 of the laws new gentile believers in Moshaich are to keep are dietary. So, I reject the idea that dietary laws are for Jews only.

    I think the end of the interesting bit in Acts 15 is when the apostles say, paraphrasing, "Hey, the Torah is preached everywhere, every Sabbath." I think that hints at what the apostles were getting at.

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  24. Judah,
    What you say about Acts 15 is true. The ones listed are starting points so that the new Gentile believers would be able to have fellowship with their new Jewish brethren who believed in Yeshua. The rest they would get as they encountered Torah taught weekly in Synagogue.

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  25. Banner Kidd & Judah Bro,

    You're both exactly right.
    And Banner Kidd, what you just said is exactly right, exactly what I said - right on.

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  26. Aharon:

    And you know this interpretation of Acts 15 is right because? Are you aware of other interpretations? How deeply have you thought about this?

    Derek

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  27. Derek,

    Because the text makes perfect sense that way, especially in light of Judaism's method. We all must remember that Shaul was a Pharisee (Acts 26:3) of the House of Hillel, and that this same method is applied by modern Rabbinic Judaism which descends from Hillel-Pharisaism.

    So it is no surprise both Rabbinic Judaism of today and Shaul had the same method of going about things.

    However, this is not to say there is no place in olam haba for those who do not convert to Judaism.

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  28. Aharon:

    I'm a little confused. I thought you were arguing for the position that the apostles in Acts 15 were saying start with these four commands and you will learn the rest in synagogue.

    If that is what you are arguing for, then I have no idea why you would say both 2nd Temple Judaism and modern Judaism follow the same method. That is certainly not true.

    In modern Judaism, you must conform to Torah prior to converting. In 2nd Temple Judaism those who did not fully conform to Torah were called God-fearers and were not yet ready to convert. Conversion implies taking on the full yoke of Torah and always has. Can you tell me if I am missing something (honestly)?

    Derek

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  29. Derek,

    Yes, I am arguing the point that Shaul outlined 4 simple Laws to keep before learning the rest of the Torah in the synagogues according to the custom, and eventually becoming fully Torah observant.

    I was saying Shaul, who was trained by Hillel's grandson, implemented that goyim understand Torah before converting (or so it appears) in Acts 15. It depends on if you're placing conversion before or after learning the Torah.

    In my opinion, I see those returning goyim as being "saved" (or rather, starting the process of salvation) by accepting the yoke of Torah. However, I do not think they were considered converts to [Nazarene] Judaism as of yet until they learned the rest of Torah in the synagogues. But maybe they were considered converts to Judaism before that, in that time?

    Either way, it doesn't matter. Modern Rabbinic Judaism, which descends from the 2nd Temple PHARISAIC Judaism (note that there were 3 main sects of Judaism in that time, and eventually there was the coalition-sect of Judaism called the Netzarim/Nazarenes who were probably mostly comprised of Pharisee and Essene Jews), follows the same type of pattern: starting with Noachide and making your way to Judaizing (i.e. converting yourself to Judaism).
    Where you place actual conversion may have varied from then and now - I'm not sure.

    Does this help at all?

    -Aaron

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  30. Derek,
    I don't presume to answer for Aaron, but I would like to address your statements.


    "If that is what you are arguing for, then I have no idea why you would say both 2nd Temple Judaism and modern Judaism follow the same method. That is certainly not true."

    Derek, you are right 2nd Temple Judaism and modern Judaism does not follow the same method. Bottom line - they are wrong! They are still looking for a city whose builder and maker is man, instead of a city whose builder and maker is Yahweh.

    "In modern Judaism, you must conform to Torah prior to converting. In 2nd Temple Judaism those who did not fully conform to Torah were called God-fearers and were not yet ready to convert. Conversion implies taking on the full yoke of Torah and always has. Can you tell me if I am missing something (honestly)?"

    Modern Judaism is in rebellion to Yahweh, rejecting HIS Messiah! Why would you want to convert to that? One can only keep Torah by grace through faith, the New Covenant being implemented in their life, being circumcised of the heart. Circumcision of the flesh to become a part of the nation Israel affords nothing but a backsliding move. What you are missing is that Israel was chosen but they have not performed what they were chosen for. Some have, but as a nation they have not. They are in rebellion to Yahweh and have been all along, just like the professing church. Torah is the great leveler of the playing field and shows all men guilty of transgression and need for Messiah. We are not to be grafted into Israel. We are to be grafted into Messiah Yeshua and we are to walk as HE walked not as Israel walks! We are all, as one man, to keep Torah. It is commanded.

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  31. Banner Kidd,

    You said,
    "Derek, you are right 2nd Temple Judaism and modern Judaism does not follow the same method. Bottom line - they are wrong! They are still looking for a city whose builder and maker is man, instead of a city whose builder and maker is Yahweh."

    I completely disagree with this Sadducee/Karaite view. In the words of Rabbi James Trimm:

    "In the Torah the Halachic authority was originally held by Moses himself (Ex. 18:13) but later a council of Elders were appointed (Ex. 18:13-26; Dt. 1:9-18) These Elders showed men "the way wherein they must walk" (i.e. Halacha) (Ex. 18:20) Their judgements were regarded as the judgement of G-d himself (Dt. 1:17) and were even called "Torah" (Dt. 17:11) At first these men had authority only in small matters (Ex. 18:22, 26; Dt. 1:17) but later their authority was expanded (Dt. 17:8). This council was later defined as seventy Elders whom G-d placed his Spirit upon (Num. 11:16-17; 24-25)."

    Now, I may not agree with all Rabbinic/Pharisaic halacha, as it all does not agree with Yeshua's halacha. However, Yeshua's halacha could be best defined as a mixture of Hillel-Pharisaic halacha and Essene halacha.
    So I may not agree with all Rabbinic/Pharisaic halacha, but I very much believe in halacha!

    You also said:
    "Modern Judaism is in rebellion to Yahweh, rejecting HIS Messiah! Why would you want to convert to that? One can only keep Torah by grace through faith, the New Covenant being implemented in their life, being circumcised of the heart.
    They are in rebellion to Yahweh and have been all along, just like the professing church.
    "

    Let's keep in mind that the righteous and faithful son in the parable of the prodigal son, is Judah - the Jewish people - who have maintained the Torah throughout all these generations. The unfaithful son is Ephraim. The cultivated olive tree of Romans 11 is the House of Judah. The un-cultivated one is Ephraim. Who is grafted into who? Ephraim grafted into Judaism.

    While in the matter of accepting Rebbe Yehoshua ben Yosef as Moshiach, yes, most of modern Judaism is in rebellion. However, there exist a good number of secret Orthodox Jewish believers in Yeshua. See the testimony of Reb. Simcha Pearlmutter.

    And, you lump all of modern Judaism as solely Pharisaic/Rabbinic or Karaite. Modern Netzari/Nazarene Judaism is a very valid expression of Judaism.

    Although I see where you are coming from, and I am not at all personally offended by your statements because I understand what you are trying to say, it is offensive to me to compare modern Judaism to the church. This is a common error made by the Ephraimites and/or returning goyim, and it is baggage from Christianity that needs to be dropped - IMHO.

    Again, I'm not angry at you or personally offended with you at all, "its just business" and disagreements shouldn't cause us resentment - they happen all the time.

    Shalom,
    -Aharon

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  32. Let me add to my last post that I doo believe in an Oral Torah/Oral Instruction.

    The Written Torah is incomplete with instructions on how to carry out many mitzvot, and clearly there would be no need for a Council of Elders that was established in the Torah if the Written Torah explained absolutely everything.

    Also, Yeshua would not have argued and discussed halachot with the Pharisees, nor would he have given the Halachic Key of David to Kefa, which eventually passed to the Netzari/Nazarene Beit Din.

    Yeshua was definitely not a Karaite!

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  33. Also, Banner Kidd, (sorry for failing to include this all into one post!!)

    I would like to have your email address, if you don't mind. I have an email I'd like to send you regarding the "New Covenant".

    Do you mind?

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  34. Aaron, My e-mail address is bfkidd@ligtel.com. I will read what you send me. Thanks. -Banner

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  35. Aaron, My e-mail address is bfkidd@ligtel.com. I will read what you send me. Thanks. -Banner

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  36. Judah,

    Thank you so much for this. I know it took quite a bit of time and is very helpful to me. I am very interested in this man's point of view and I agree with him. Gee...did you ever think you'd hear me say that???? I very much appreciate the way he shows that he highly esteems the Jews but also the gentiles. We are two separate peoples of God but we are one in Christ. God is glorified through each and one day, I know we will simply be the holy people of God.

    I think I sounded lazy about holidays when really, I'm not a very healthy person and I never have been. I have to pace myself in order to carry my own weight. This has been true all of my life and raising a family was difficult for me. Holidays would just about put me over the edge. Also, I grew up as a heathen and holidays were just days when my parents who were alcoholics,(they are saved now and no longer drink) would drink more and I have no warm cozy memories of childhood Christmases etc. Also, there are a few of us women who just aren't gifted in the kitchen and I am one of them. Yet, I have had to cook because I'm the girl for over thirty years now. (Well...that's not quite true both of my sons have become great cooks as adults and they, with ulterior motives, often take over in the kitchen now.) My point is that for many women holidays are stressful with a lot of added work and I'm not the only one who dreads it. When we are all in the Kingdom and I have my glorified body then maybe feasts and holy days will not make me overloaded and over tired and I'll have a more celebratory attitude. I also know that God knows my heart is for Him even I get a bit scroogish about special days. I feast upon Jesus every day and that sufficient celebration for me.

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  37. Judah,

    I just went back and read some of the comments. I agree that none of us can agree 100% and that our unity is in Christ not theology. I hope you will continue this stance because I learn so much from this site that is valuable to me. I can say that of only a very few. I know you love truth the way I do and you are very good at holding up what you believe to be true in a manner that is approachable and allows others to learn from you. This is Jesus working through you and most of the people who post here. This is a good thing and I don't want Satan to blow it up. I know that the tares will remain until Jesus comes for His church and those nasty tares try their best to choke out every healthy wheat plant that they can. The only way to beat them is to stay focused on Jesus and keep growing strong in Him. He is the Miracle Grow that tares can never receive. There is no need for us to take on weeding out the church. God has all under control.

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  38. I completely disagree with this Sadducee/Karaite view. In the words of Rabbi James Trimm:

    "In the Torah the Halachic authority was originally held by Moses himself (Ex. 18:13) but later a council of Elders were appointed (Ex. 18:13-26; Dt. 1:9-18) These Elders showed men "the way wherein they must walk" (i.e. Halacha) (Ex. 18:20) Their judgements were regarded as the judgement of G-d himself (Dt. 1:17) and were even called "Torah" (Dt. 17:11) At first these men had authority only in small matters (Ex. 18:22, 26; Dt. 1:17) but later their authority was expanded (Dt. 17:8). This council was later defined as seventy Elders whom G-d placed his Spirit upon (Num. 11:16-17; 24-25)."

    James Trimm? I've been looking around and trying to learn of this man. What I'm finding appears to reflect very poorly concerning him. The Rabbis who draw men to themselves (proven by the allegiance to their words over Torah) are the Judaizers that Paul spoke of. They taught that Gentiles needed to convert to Judaism and come under the authority of the Rabbis to be in right relationship with Yahweh. And now there are various twists to this, such as Gentiles don't have to convert and then don't have to keep Torah. Of course such a one who does not convert is not eligible for all the things that a Jew is eligible for. What about "out of the two, one new man?" This is absolute blasphemous heresy. People are following men rather than the Almighty! This has been the problem since the Beginning! You must see this! Carnal Zionism is at work drawing men/women away fro the Creator to themselves. They are in the sway of Satan and many are decieved. Why? Because they have not recieved a love for the Truth, but would rather embrace the lie. I am overwhelmed by what I am seeing as I continue this journey. The Messianic movement is as confused and decieved as the church movement. Sectarianism reigns in both arenas and men would rather follow their particular rabbi than follow The Rabbi, Yeshua, The Living Torah! Everything we need for life and godliness is in HIM. HE is the exact representation of Torah. Not the rabbis. This Carnal Zionism is why Israel is being propped up by the evangelicals in their unlawful existence in the land. Israel was cast out by Yahweh for disobedience and the return can only be through repentance to HIM, to unleavened Torah. But Carnal Zionism, with it's expressions in evangelical Christianity, Orthodox Judaism and Messianic Judaism is driving the agenda and it is false.

    LET YAHWEH BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR!

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  39. I completely disagree with this Sadducee/Karaite view. In the words of Rabbi James Trimm:

    "In the Torah the Halachic authority was originally held by Moses himself (Ex. 18:13) but later a council of Elders were appointed (Ex. 18:13-26; Dt. 1:9-18) These Elders showed men "the way wherein they must walk" (i.e. Halacha) (Ex. 18:20) Their judgements were regarded as the judgement of G-d himself (Dt. 1:17) and were even called "Torah" (Dt. 17:11) At first these men had authority only in small matters (Ex. 18:22, 26; Dt. 1:17) but later their authority was expanded (Dt. 17:8). This council was later defined as seventy Elders whom G-d placed his Spirit upon (Num. 11:16-17; 24-25)."

    James Trimm? I've been looking around and trying to learn of this man. What I'm finding appears to reflect very poorly concerning him. The Rabbis who draw men to themselves (proven by the allegiance to their words over Torah) are the Judaizers that Paul spoke of. They taught that Gentiles needed to convert to Judaism and come under the authority of the Rabbis to be in right relationship with Yahweh. And now there are various twists to this, such as Gentiles don't have to convert and then don't have to keep Torah. Of course such a one who does not convert is not eligible for all the things that a Jew is eligible for. What about "out of the two, one new man?" This is absolute blasphemous heresy. People are following men rather than the Almighty! This has been the problem since the Beginning! You must see this! Carnal Zionism is at work drawing men/women away fro the Creator to themselves. They are in the sway of Satan and many are decieved. Why? Because they have not recieved a love for the Truth, but would rather embrace the lie. I am overwhelmed by what I am seeing as I continue this journey. The Messianic movement is as confused and decieved as the church movement. Sectarianism reigns in both arenas and men would rather follow their particular rabbi than follow The Rabbi, Yeshua, The Living Torah! Everything we need for life and godliness is in HIM. HE is the exact representation of Torah. Not the rabbis. This Carnal Zionism is why Israel is being propped up by the evangelicals in their unlawful existence in the land. Israel was cast out by Yahweh for disobedience and the return can only be through repentance to HIM, to unleavened Torah. But Carnal Zionism, with it's expressions in evangelical Christianity, Orthodox Judaism and Messianic Judaism is driving the agenda and it is false.

    LET YAHWEH BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR!

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  40. "This Carnal Zionism is why Israel is being propped up by the evangelicals in their unlawful existence in the land."

    I thought you were a rabid anti-Semite/Jew hater after your first few comments ... and you confirmed it with your last one. Go spew your hatred in the Stormfront forums with your spiritual brethren. You have a wicked, evil heart full of malice toward all men who do not buy your twisted perverted understanding of scripture. You claim to follow the G-d of Israel, but you hate Israel and the Jewish people - you're no better than all the anti-semites that came before you. Luther would be proud!

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  41. Gene, you are wrong. I love Israel enough to tell Israel the truth. Israel is in the land unlawfully. The right of return is only through repentance from the dead works of men to the pure unleavened Torah. I am not of Luther. I despise the attitude of Luther. All men are liars. All means you and me too. Only Yahweh is true and His truth exposes our lies.

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  42. Banner Kidd,

    You might as well join the anti-Semites because you'd be a good mouthpiece for their anti-Semitic BS.

    How can you sit there and use the phrase "Carnal Zionism" and feel soo good with it, that you think there is no need to explain anything you meant.

    You don't love the Jewish State of Israel - far from it. You're anti-Zionist sentiment is nothing more than a form of anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism IS anti-Semitism.

    I have to entirely agree with Gene here, he's absolutely right!!

    You believe the anti-Semitic pieces of trash at that seekgod.org site who slander many people in the Messianic and Nazarene movements because they find them to be a threat to their beliefs. Just go ahead and side with them! I'm sure they'd welcome in an anti-Semite with arms wide open.

    Sickening, Kidd, sickening!
    -Aaron

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  43. BANNER KIDD,

    I want to thank you for arousing my zeal for Zion. Will be making another vid one like this and like this one, except about Zionism and Israel.

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  44. Aaron,
    You said, "You don't love the Jewish State of Israel - far from it. You're anti-Zionist sentiment is nothing more than a form of anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism IS anti-Semitism."

    Here is the underlying error in your position. The "Jewish State of Israel" is not the "Israel of Yahweh." The nation of Israel (and I did explain what I meant about Carnal Zionism) is in rebellion.

    Can you show me otherwise?

    Yahweh said He would re-establish Israel in the land when they repented and returned to Him, not to the land. Can you show me in Scripture where Israel is to re-establish himself in the land, especially by his attitude toward the stranger in the land that is in opposition to the commandment?

    No sir. Israel is occupying the land unlawfully, both in the law of the courts and the Torah!

    Show me Scripturally where I am wrong.

    Abraham was in the land and lived there as if he was just passing through. He knew that wasn't the land and city Yahweh spoke of. He was looking for a city whose builder and maker is Yahweh.

    Modern day Israel is just as the Zealots were when Yeshua came the first time. They wanted to use military might to set up a kingdom of Israel with Yeshua leading the charge. Yeshua didn't go for it. He said that was NOT His kingdom. His kingdom is not of this world. He didn't fight for it then.

    The men who fought to re-establish Israel were as much terrorists as the Palestinians are now. It might have been a different story if Israel had been content with the 17% they were given by the Balfour Declaration and then obeyed Torah, apart from their own Rabbinic tradtions, and allowed Yahweh to establish them in the land. They decided to take the kingdom by force. It will not work.

    I'm reminded of when they were at Kadesh Barnea and Yahweh said "go up and possess the land." They sent spies in first and whent the spies came back the fear of man overwhelmed their fear of Yahweh. When Yahweh pronounced judgment on them for rebellious unbelief they decided then they would obey. Too late! Now Yahweh said to them, "Do not go up. I am not with you." In further rebellion they disobeyed Yahweh, went up and were rounted by the enemy. It is the same now. He is saying, I believe, "Do not go in to possess the land. I am not with you."

    We know the blessing of remaining in the land is contingent upon repentance and obedience to Torah. Can you honestly say the State of Israel is right with Yahweh?

    I encourage you to take a step back and look at Torah through the eyes of Holy Ruach and not through the eyes of men that Yahweh said were faulty.

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  45. Banner Kidd,
    Sorry for the long delayed reply. I hope you read this soon and repent.

    You made the claim that the Jewish State of Israel is not the Israel of Elokim. Would you care to give some evidence? The burden of proof is on you.

    The SAME Jewish State that rose out of the ashes of the Holocaust; a weak and infant State that was immediately attacked by many Arab nations, each one much, much, much bigger than the State of Israel. The Jewish State of Israel survived MIRACULOUSLY and not only fended off the Arab invaders, but expanded their borders too. There are countless stories of miraculous happenings in those beginning wars, not only among Israeli soldiers but Arab soldiers too.

    And you want to sit there in your nice chair in your comfortable American home and tell me Elokim did not protect and defend Israel in its out-of-the-Holocaust infancy. You want to try to tell me all those miracles didn't happen or they're just coincidence?

    RIDICULOUS. And disgusting. Its interesting you talk about the spies who sent the bad report back to Israel, because you're on of them. I hope you never get a chance to set foot in Eretz HaKodesh, and I have a feeling I won't have to do much hoping, its probably already a done deal. When Babylon is tore down, don't come knocking on the door of the ark asking in!

    I notice how IMMEDIATELY you assume because I'm a Rabbinic/Pharisaic Jew I must have no connection or knowledge to the Ruach HaQodesh (a term which is found in Rabbinic writings more than it is anywhere else). On the contrary, not only do I have a connection with the Ruach HaQodesh, I understand it from the Torah thanks to the Zohar, Bahir, Sefer Yetzirah, and some of the Writings of the Netzarim. Little do you know the same Rabbis you hate came up with the ideas of the Resurrection, Mashiach, the Synagogue system, as well as other things. Sure, they're not perfect, no man is; but neither are you - and I'd chose a Rabbi over you, considering he knows the Torah a million times better than you or me.

    A talmid is a talmid.

    Shalom,
    -Talmid Aharon

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  46. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  47. Hello, anonymous Qaraite,

    It's rare when I have to delete blog comments. Yours is one I had to delete. The reasons are this: your post was almost entirely name-calling. This blog will not serve as a soapbox for that.

    You're welcome to stay here if you keep it civil.

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