The folks at First Fruits of Zion have a wonderful commentary on this bit of Torah and how it applies to both Jews and Gentiles:
Our Master Yeshua kept all the commandments. If we desire to imitate Him in discipleship, it would behoove us to walk in obedience to the same laws that He did.
A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40)
Commentary
There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. (Numbers 15:16)
The Torah says there is to be only one law for both Jews and aliens sojourning with the Jewish people. Most Gentile Christians do not keep the Torah's ritual laws: Sabbaths, festivals, dietary laws and ritual symbols like wearing tassels, phylacteries, or putting up a mezuzah scroll on the doorpost. This does not mean that Gentile Christians are godless or even lawless. Jewish believers are certainly bound to keep the whole Torah, but Gentile believers have never felt bound to the Torah's external signs in the way that Jews are. After all, Jews should be Jews and Gentiles should be Gentiles.
But does the Torah really make different laws for Jews and Gentiles? According to Numbers 15:15-16, there is to be only one law for both Jews and Gentiles:
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD. There is to be one Torah and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. (Numbers 15:15-16)
This seems simple enough. According to these verses, there is one law for both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, Gentile believers should keep the whole Torah. One might suppose that the Gentile believers who were fellowshipping in the apostolic communities should fit into the category of "the alien who sojourns with you." When the apostles considered this question in Acts 15, they left the matter open. They gave the Gentile believers four minimum standards for fellowship within the Jewish synagogue communities, but they did not issue a mandate clarifying Gentile obligation to the whole Torah.
The same open posture of Acts 15 seems to be reflected in the Didache. The Didache is allegedly a collection of apostolic instructions for Gentile believers. When discussing the question of how much Torah a Gentile is obligated to keep, the Didache recommends keeping all of it, but leaves the matter up to an individual's capacity:
If you are able to bear all the yoke of the Lord [i.e., Torah], you will be perfect; but if you are not able, do as much as you are able to do. (Didache 6:2)
The Didache agrees with Numbers 15:15-16. There is not supposed to be a different Torah for Gentile believers. The Gentile believers are not supposed to have a different type of worship or religion. There is only one Torah for God's people. The only question left open is to what extent the Gentile believer is obligated. At First Fruits of Zion we push the envelope and choose to err on the side of obedience to God. There is life and reward in God's commandments. The more we apply the commandments, the more life we experience. Therefore, we encourage all believers to "go all the way!" You can't go wrong by being too obedient to God.
Hi Judah,
ReplyDeleteAm I wrong in assessing that portion of scripture relating to non-Jews living amongst Jews? If so this brings up a problem with me that I have touched on with you before. I have no problem with Jewish holidays or other outward observances but they are not a part of my culture and if I were to try to adopt them, I would be celebrating all alone. I also cling to the fact that as a Gentile believer, I am being made holy apart from the Law. Even if I don't understand how to weave Jewish custom into my life, I already have the fulfillment of what they foreshadow in Jesus. That doesn't mean that I should look down my nose at Jewish Christians who maintain customs given to them by God but you must admit that Jews and Gentiles come at this from very different perspectives. However, I am sure that when God Kingdom is fully established upon the earth and if we are celebrating holy days and oberserving laws, they will be those given to the Chosen People directly from God.
I guess that in the end, I see no reason to rush what God is accomplishing in Christ. No matter how different our background, Judah we have unity in Jesus and in Him alone.
I would like to hear your take on the book of Galatians.:0)
Hey Pam, thanks as always for the good stuff you add to these discussions.
ReplyDeleteAh, so many things to respond to. I could fill a book! I'll try to keep it short and sweet.
First, you're right, it is talking about gentiles living in Israel. Gentiles living outside of Israel weren't addressed, yet.
You said something that raised a red flag real quick to me! :-) You said,
I have no problem with Jewish holidays
NOOOOOOO, Pam, that's the gentile talkin'!
:-)
What if I told you they weren't Jewish? Scripture doesn't say anywhere that they're Jewish. Here's what God had to say about the Feasts,
"These are My appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as holy."
Now let me ask, if they are God's, does that change your mind about them at all?
Pam, you said,
Jewish Christians who maintain customs given to them by God
I'd say you're looking at it wrong. I mean, these aren't customs -- they're commandments! If God commanded something and we don't do it, what can it be called short of disobedience?
Maybe that's where we differ: you see keeping of the Law as optional practice of Jewish customs, whereas I see keeping of Torah as obedience to God's commands. Would you say that's a fair contrast, Pam?
I would like to hear your take on the book of Galatians.
Yeah, absolutely, we should discuss this. Perhaps a new blog post here or on your blog would be the right place for a talk about Galatians.
Hi Judah,
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant by 'no problem' is that I don't expect Jewish Christians to have my viewpoint as some gentile Christians do. I agree that they are commandments but they were not given to all of us, they were delivered to God's Chosen and would never have been known to me except for Jesus. When I read about them, I see Jesus in them and I am awed by the wisdom of God. Jesus is my festivals and holy days. The things they represent are mine in fullness in Christ with me not even really knowing them or experiencing them. I really have only been made aware of them recently. I am not saying that is a good thing for the more I know about Hebrew thought and custom the better I understand scripture and the more I understand about scripture the more I know Jesus, the Living Word.
I think that 'keeping Laws' is also a cultural divide for us. When I hear this I think of myself struggling in my own strength to keep God's Law and not only keeping it but living by it. If I seek to live by the Law, I will also die by it for I am not equipped from birth to keep it. I was born spiritually dead to God and His Law is Spiritual. Now I am born again according to the Spirit and when I live according to the Spirit, God's Laws are natural to my new nature. However, my old nature is still also present and daily, it is being slowly but surely put to death under the Law that I might live according to the Spirit. None of this is mine outside of Christ and when I live according to the Spirit the Law can't condemn me. All of us are convicted of sin, under the Law, that God by His own Grace could have Mercy upon all of us. I am not ever saying that the Law is bad but rather I am bad and the Law can't change that. It can only show me my need for God and prepare me for that which does have the power to make me holy, faith in Jesus Christ.
I hope you know that I'm not trying to argue, Judah. I think I am trying to cross a bridge that is already there between gentile and Jew, that bridge is Jesus Christ but because you are on one side of the bridge and I another, we get confused about what the other is saying. I accept you fully as a Jew and a Christian. I guess I would like that same acceptance from you as a Gentile. I don't find anything in scripture that commands me to become a Jew as a requirement to my faith in Christ; quite the opposite actually, I believe I am to remain a gentile, one who catches the crumbs from the table set for God's Chosen People. If He did not desire to save every one of you, I would not have been grafted in at all.
Hello Pam,
ReplyDeleteAs a Jewish believer in Messiah, I truly appreciate my gentiles brothers and sisters who were made one with me in Jesus. I believe that G-d feels the same away - He loves and accept anyone who loves His Son. At the same time, I cannot find anywhere in the Word, and especially in the New Testament scriptures where Gentiles are even remotely encouraged or especially required to observe Jewish laws (circumcision, kosher diet as given to Moses, no Noah, or even the Shabbat of Israel) or Jewish national customs and traditions (which a too numerous to count). One could argue that these laws are not Jewish, but G-d's. But if you look objectively, everything is G-d's on this earth - but He GAVE to each nation their own gifts, land and blessings that belong to that nation alone. Abel, Noah and even Abraham were declared righteous by G-d, even though they didn't observe the Law of G-d in the form given to Israel. Of course, they did observe G-d's Law - but, as you noted, the Law they observed was a spiritual one. It's essence was to love G-d and fellow man, and wait for G-d's redemption.
Why did G-d give Israel laws unique and different from any other laws? This is because it was His desire to create a holy and consecrated nation, His special possession through which He would bring about the Messiah, and through Whom, the Salvation of all vessels of mercy (Jew or Gentile). Many of these laws were given to Israel as a sign of the covenant. Gentiles who lived in Israel had to follow some laws given to Israel (Shabbat, for example), but not other laws (like holy days or kosher diet).
I believe that G-d loves TRUE Christian gentiles, and if they love G-d and their fellow man they are already doing G-d's will as given to them. Israel must follow the laws given to it through the covenant made with their forefathers, while not forgetting the weightier matters of the Law.
May the L-rd of Israel and the whole World richly bless my gentiles brothers and sisters.
Shalom,
Gene
Gene,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for your comment and your wisdom. You have blessed me.
I am often so awed at what God has done to keep His Chosen people special in the world and separated to Him. It is a miracle, you know. Something that makes the Jewish people quite unique. I am further awed by God blessing the entire human family by raising a Messiah from them. It is a plan that no human being could imagine and His ways truly are past our finding out...except for the portion He reveals to, in, and through each of us.
Pam,
ReplyDeleteI think we actually agree on some parts if you dig deep. For example, you are not required to keep the Law in order to be saved, this point was made clear in the Christian Scriptures. However, if one's life is living opposite to the Torah -- no mercy, no love, adultery, idolatry, sexual immorality -- one must question whether that unrepentant person is saved at all.
Take this bit you said,
Now I am born again according to the Spirit and when I live according to the Spirit, God's Laws are natural to my new nature.
Yeah. Isn't it interesting that the Spirit will never be against the Word? If you're perfectly living by the Spirit, you will never break a single commandment in Torah. (This is precisely as Messiah did.)
The Law comes in because we are flesh, and without some physical definition of right and wrong, our flesh could convince us that anything goes: idolatry, sexual immorality, homosexuality, you name it. (Indeed, the modern Church is on its way towards making such things acceptable, laregly in part because of its rejection of Torah.)
We need the Law because the Spirit is, well, spiritual, and we are not. We need the physical definition of right and wrong.
What are we saying, then, when we command "live by the Spirit, but not the Word"? It is making the Word out to be in opposition to the Spirit.
One bit that raised red flags was something spoken by Gene, God bless him, and I want you to read it and prove it to yourself. He said,
I cannot find anywhere in the Word, and especially in the New Testament scriptures where Gentiles are even remotely encouraged or especially required to observe Jewish laws
We must not be searching too hard, for it's all over Scripture, including the New Testament.
In Acts, all the disciples and Paul gathered and decided that new gentile believers should start by following 4 laws from Torah.
(Laws which modern Christians do not keep, by the way.)
The rest of the Torah? Well, they responded, "Moses is preached in every synagogue on Sabbath".
Paul says in Romans that if it wasn't for the Law, we wouldn't know what sin is.
The Law defines sin. Do you agree with this conclusion, Pam and Gene?
Yes, I do agree, Judah. I was raised a complete heathen and I know from experience how backward, even upside down, to God that my thinking was before I was born again. Even with the Ten Commandments being hung up everywhere when I was a child and the culture I was raised in being heavily influenced by Judeo/Christian morals, I had no regard for them until God quickened my spirit and I accepted Jesus as my savior. When I became spiritual (as well as flesh), I began to want to know what God thought about things and how I could please Him. We have to be born of water(physical birth) and of Spirit before we can even begin to really live according to the Spirit. Before that the best we could do is imperfect outward observance. Those who have not been reborn according to the Spirit are still under the Law (which is what I think of when someone says 'Keep the Law') but we who are reborn in Christ who walk according to the Spirit fulfill the Law naturally in actions that flow from within. The cup has to be scrubbed inside first. It does me no good to force my flesh to do what it does not want to do because outward observence only is not good enough for God.
ReplyDeleteI think we agree completely upon the moral law. Where we butt heads a bit is the rest of the Law, mostly holidays. Still if they are fulfilled in Christ, and I have the mind of Christ then I have in fullness what those holidays only foreshadowed. Isn't the spirit of the Law more important than the form?
Isn't the spirit of the Law more important than the form?
ReplyDeleteGreat question, Pam. Thanks for bringing this up. I appreciate the way you've discussed this so far with me and Gene.
I had to chuckle when I realized that the reverse of your argument is also used against the Law,
"The Law is just a shadow. Messiah is the real form! The form is more important than the shadow. Therefore, the Law is abolished."
Heheh. :-)
Here's the reality: Messiah is more important than the written Torah, because He's the Torah in the flesh, the only person to keep Torah perfectly.
That said, we ought not use that as an excuse for abolishing the form in favor of the spirit. Were we to do so, we may as well rid ourselves of all other outward forms, such as baptism and circumcision.
I like how the folks at First Fruits of Zion put it: "There is life and reward in God's commandments. You can't go wrong by being too obedient to God!"
Pam...
ReplyDelete"I am further awed by God blessing the entire human family by raising a Messiah from them."
Amen. For now, however, we remain a dysfunctional family, held together by G-d's grace alone.
Judah...
"We need the Law because the Spirit is, well, spiritual, and we are not. We need the physical definition of right and wrong."
I agree. However, it doesn't mean that G-d has not already put His Laws into every person, Jew or Gentile, and without the Law of Moses. As it's written:
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them (Romans 2:14-15)."
It is interesting that G-d has declared righteous men like Noah, Abraham, and Lot, gave life to and sustained Isaac and the 12 patriarchs of Israel, all without first giving them the "Law of Moses" first. With this in mind, seeing that G-d accepted these individuals, why insist that Gentiles must now follow the Law as given through Moses to Israel?
About Law of Moses for Gentiles "We must not be searching too hard, for it's all over Scripture, including the New Testament."
What I see over and over, are warnings (to Gentiles only) that they are not to become circumcised (I guess that part of the Law is not the same for everyone), for example. As far as following the WHOLE Law of the Jews, it's is obvious from plain meaning of scripture, that the Gentiles Paul was speaking to were not expected to do so:
"Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law."
So, are Gentiles to follow the "whole law" if they are not cicumised? (which Paul forbids in the scriptures, for Gentiles only - WITHOUT ANY DISCLAIMERS).
Never does Paul admonished the Gentile believers that they are not to break Shabbat, or scolds them for not following the Jewish holidays, or for eating pork.
"In Acts, all the disciples and Paul gathered and decided that new gentile believers should start by following 4 laws from Torah."
I would like to mention that it DOESN'T say that following the 4 laws from Torah is a "start". That is adding to the scripture what one wants it to say. Also, the law about not drinking animal blood clearly predates the Law of Moses (it actually given to all nations). I believe that Christian should abstain from violating those 4 requirements.
"The rest of the Torah? Well, they responded, "Moses is preached in every synagogue on Sabbath"."
It doesn't say or imply "the rest of the Torah". For example, one (noted as most likely) explanation put forth by David H. Stern in his Jewish New Testament Commentary is that the Law of Moses as preached has failed to reach the Gentiles, but the Gospel of Jesus has (this is why Paul said that he is no longer "preaching circumcision" (Galatians 5:11).
"Here's the reality: Messiah is more important than the written Torah, because He's the Torah in the flesh, the only person to keep Torah perfectly."
Amen!
Pam...
"Still if they are fulfilled in Christ, and I have the mind of Christ then I have in fullness what those holidays only foreshadowed."
Yes, Christ is everything. But fulfilled doesn't mean "nullified". If this was so, how one would explain the fact, for example, that in Christ Kingdom all nations (which attacked Israel) would be required to come to Jerusalem every year for the feast of Tabernacles? (Zechariah 14:16)
Be bless,
Gene
All,
ReplyDeleteVery good discussion! I commend you all keeping it civil. I have such strong beliefs about the subject matter and I have had difficulty in the past to keep from becoming frustrated. Judah knows where I am coming from, but maybe the rest of you don't. Judah and I have been discussing grace and law for several years now.
Gene,
I admire and respect the wisdom that God has given you. I would be interested in your take on Ephesians 2:11-22 (especially v14-15) and Galatians 3:28-29. To me it seems unambiguous, but I also know that we tend to read things from our own "bias," even to the point of spinning them to say something radically different than a "plain sense" interpretation.
In Christ,
Gary
Gary...
ReplyDeleteFirst, I'd like to thank Judah for not shying away from such controversial issues, and as Gary said, thank you to everyone's for keeping it civil.
"I would be interested in your take on Ephesians 2:11-22 (especially v14-15)"
Gary... I came to realize by comparing the Greek scriptures as well as various English and other language translations that a lot of Christian bias (against Law and Israel) has crept in because many (but not all) of the translators were biased themselves (against Israel and the Law).
Here's my very short summary of the Ephesians verses you gave (following the Greek text):
Remember that in the past, you who are Gentiles by birth (note: not former Gentiles as commonly mistranslated), were looked down upon by the covenanted people of G-d (Israel), excluded from the Commonwealth of Israel (my analogy: Canada is part of Commonwealth of Britain, but not England itself, yet can travel freely), having nothing to do with its blessings, without any hope. But G-d through Christ has broken down the wall that divided Jews and Gentiles, and did away the enmity that Torah has caused with it's commandments (note: Law wasn't done away with, rather the enmity against Gentiles caused by the Law - laws that in Torah forbid Jews from closely associating with Gentiles for fear of idolatry). Now, Jews and Gentiles become one in the Body of Messiah (my note: in the Body, different members have different functions, but still need each other to survive).
Now, let's look at Galatians 3:28-29. Here's my understanding:
In Christ, we are all made equal - G-d is no respecter of persons. You (Gentiles) are now children of Abraham (my note: not of Jacob/Israel).
My note on the above: when most people quote this verse to support their view that Jews and Israel have been done away with and are no longer distinct in the Body, they stop at "There is neither Jew nor Greek". However, if one were to ask them, should Christian men start frequenting women's bathrooms, or should Christian women marry other women, should women become pastors of churches and start teaching men, (or, are "women-only" retreats in keeping with the new "male nor female" reality in that verse), most would say that "NO!" and that G-d has clearly made men and women different, that New Testament speaks of them as having different responsibilities and roles, and that such things shouldn't be allowed! Are there no longer any difference between men and women in Christ, as the verse says, just as there are no more difference between Jews and Gentiles (if one interprets that verse so)? Do you see how this verse is being misapplied by singling out the Jewish people in the Body?
Shalom and blessings to you!
Gene
Hey Judah,
ReplyDeleteYou can tease me, kid but don't put words in my mouth. I never ever said that the Law was abolished. If we're not under the Law then we're on top of it right? Because I have been born again, I love God, I don't want to kill anyone, I don't want to steal, I don't want to lie, I don't want to covet,etc. I want what God wants. The Law has no hold over me when I do that which the Holy Spirit, Who now lives in me, desires. Also, when I do what the old me (my flesh) wants to do, then the Law serves as a reminder to put the brakes on and turn back to Jesus. Jesus is the Living Word/Torah and He keeps me. Everything I need is found in Him.
I really appreciate you too, Judah. I learn a lot from you and I always enjoy what I read here even when I keep my own mouth shut! You are doing a good thing here.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the reply. I agree with your interpretation that Jews should not cease to be Jews. It also doesn't say that Gentiles should become "Jewish," wouldn't you say? We are all different, but we are all part of the same Body.
Would you say that "forcing" the Gentiles to get circumcised or to keep the feasts or Sabbath is an attempt to rebuild a wall that God has already torn down? Or even basing your acceptance of them as your brother on how they keep the law?
In Christ,
Gary
Gary....
ReplyDelete"It also doesn't say that Gentiles should become "Jewish," wouldn't you say? We are all different, but we are all part of the same Body."
100% in agreement with you.
"Would you say that "forcing" the Gentiles to get circumcised or to keep the feasts or Sabbath is an attempt to rebuild a wall that God has already torn down?"
First of all, I believe that Gentiles should not HAVE to keep any Jewish feasts (they can if they want to, and I believe that they WILL have to keep the feast of Tabernacles in the Kingdom), and they definitely SHOULD NOT get circumcised (per Paul).
However, I must make one thing clear - the wall can't ever be rebuilt even if one (Jew or Gentile) wanted to - Jews didn't build it up in the first place - G-d did. G-d torn it down - and the Bible never ever accuses anyone of trying to rebuild it - that's a modern accusation against the Jewish believers. As I explained earlier, the WALL is the enmity that divided us. If anything, many Jewish believers feel "the wall" as built up against THEM when they are encouraged to abandon the Jewish laws, customs and identity in the name of unity.
"Or even basing your acceptance of them as your brother on how they keep the law? "
I don't even base my acceptance of Jews based on their keeping of certain aspects of the Law.
Shalom,
Gene
Whoa, I wake up in the morning and see like 5 new comments to this post. Heheh. Great stuff.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad things have been kept civil despite a wide variety of backgrounds here...Gene being a classic Messianic Jew, Gary being a wise old Christian gospel old-timer ;-), Pam coming here with her experience from sin-filled person to all grace and love Christian, and of course myself being a member of a false religion (wink, wink, Gene). I think this discussion has been beneficial.
@Pam,
Oh, gosh, I wasn't teasing you or saying that the you claimed the Law was abolished, sorry I wasn't clear. I was just thinking out loud how the opposite of your argument is also used against the Torah. I'm glad you don't believe the Torah is abolished.
To clarify again, I wasn't teasing you or mocking your belief.
@Gene,
Good point about Romans 2 there. You know, Paul follows up to say how the Law is not abolished, but rather confirmed by gentiles naturally keeping the Law, more or less. (More or less, because they reject certain laws such as the Sabbath, the Feasts, etc.)
And while on the topic of Sabbath, you note that the 4 Laws from Torah that new gentile believers are told to keep (the "Noahide laws") are laws that predate the Law of Moses at Sinai. Great point.
Isn't it interesting that Sabbath also predates Sinai? In fact, Sabbath is the oldest commandment and was given to all humanity, not just Israel.
Another interesting point to consider is that since the Feasts are God's, not belonging to the Jews, one must concede the Feasts predate Sinai as well. Indeed, Israel celebrated Passover in Egypt before the commandment was given at Sinai.
Here's another one:
Clean and unclean animals was also a law that predates Sinai: look at how Noah knew which animals were clean and which were unclean.
Many of the blood sacrifices predate Sinai as well; we have Abel, Noah, Abraham, and plenty of other pre-Moses folks who offered sacrifices.
It was as if God had this all planned out, all part of his law, only to be later revealed to Moses in written form. We must admit the Law of Moses aligns with God's law, for the Law given to Moses was, in fact, God's own laws.
To sum up,
*sacrifices
*the Noahide laws from the New Testament (the ones new gentile beleivers are to keep)
*the Feasts
*Sabbath
*clean/unclean animals
These are all laws that predate Sinai and were given to all mankind, not just Israel! Wow!
FWIW, I don't believe gentiles must keep all the Law of Moses first. I do believe that if you're walking in God's Spirit perfectly, you would never break a commandment from God's Law, which is revealed to us explicitly as the Torah.
One other thing, Gene. You cite Paul as an example of "don't circumcise gentiles". Acts 15, I think, tells us you don't need to be circumcised to be saved. Paul reiterates this in his letters. Paul also refused to circumcise a gentile, Titus, because folks were saying he had to be circumcised to be saved. All stuff you agree with.
But here's an old monkey wrench in the machine: Paul circumcised Timothy, also a gentile by his father.
Paul should not be used as an example to never circumcise or always circumcise, for he did both!
I believe like Paul did: gentiles don't need to be circumcised to be saved, but once again, there is joy and health and righteousness in following God's laws, even the ones that are socially unacceptable in the modern age, such as celebrating God's feasts instead of man's feasts, or circumcision, or eating only clean foods.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the reply. I wasn't meaning to say that the WALL was being built back or even could be built. So I am not making accusations or addressing anything to you personally. It was more figurative in that the "enmity" is the division caused by one group’s expectations of the other. Like you say, it is the Jew placing requirements on the Gentile that God didn't intend and it is the Gentile trying to get the Jewish believer to stop being "Jewish."
It seems we are in agreement, at least on this :)
In Christ,
Gary
Gary...
ReplyDelete"I wasn't meaning to say that the WALL was being built back or even could be built. So I am not making accusations or addressing anything to you personally."
I know you didn't so I didn't take it that way (nor am I so easily offended, brother!:). But you've raised an important issue for discussion (and for the benefit of others reading this).
"It was more figurative in that the "enmity" is the division caused by one group’s expectations of the other. "
How true - we expect of each other to behave in a certain way, instead of being loving and accepting of our G-d given differences. When Christ comes, he will balance everything out. Can't wait!
"It seems we are in agreement, at least on this :)"
Yes, we are - and that's great!
Gene
Judah... you last reply was fun to read. A few comments:
ReplyDelete"myself being a member of a false religion (wink, wink, Gene)"
Judah... not a religion, but the movement you're part of is based on "not so correct" premises (Gentiles as Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and Ephraim and must observe Mosaic Law). Your religion may be OK for all I know. And from what I can determine, as far as salvation goes, you don't deviate from the mainstream. He-heh:)
"Law is not abolished, but rather confirmed by gentiles naturally keeping the Law, more or less. (More or less, because they reject certain laws such as the Sabbath, the Feasts, etc.)"
That's a very good point for Gentile Christians to realize: that even without Law they are already expected to follow its basic precepts. It's just that Jews have it laid out to the literal letter of what these requirements exactly are (in addition to Israel-specific-ONLY covenant laws.)
"Isn't it interesting that Sabbath also predates Sinai? In fact, Sabbath is the oldest commandment and was given to all humanity, not just Israel."
I do not completely agree with you on this (a gentle way to say that I don't think you can back this up in the scripture - SHOW ME!).
Just because G-d rested on the 7th day, didn't make this into a automatic commandment for ALL of humanity. There's no single reference in the Bible that non-Israelites observed Shabbat. However, the Bible is very specific about Shabbat and Israel ONLY:
"It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever." (Exod. 31:17 cf. Deut. 5:15)
Judah, in the light of the above scripture, show me that Shabbat observance (by man) predated Israel (and wasn't give to Israel ONLY).
"Indeed, Israel celebrated Passover in Egypt before the commandment was given at Sinai."
Judah... Passover is a holiday celebrating G-d's passing over Israelites (specifically) in Egypt. It was not a holiday for all nations and peoples "There shall no stranger eat thereof". Pre-dating Sinai doesn't make it a non-Jewish holiday for all nations - a lot of things happened to Jews BEFORE Sinai that are still observed. However, I would submit that with Jesus' sacrifice, this holiday is commanded in the NT to be observed by ALL (but the Gentiles have a NEW meaning in this holidays, different from what Israelites have. Gentiles do not celebrate being led out of Egypt, but out of sin).
"Clean and unclean animals was also a law that predates Sinai: look at how Noah knew which animals were clean and which were unclean."
Noah knew what was clean and unclean, but it is ONLY with Moses did G-d specifically said that those animals are not to be eaten. There's no record of prohibition of eating any specific animal before that. In fact, it seems that people didn't even eat ANY MEAT before Noah, since G-d specifically gave what seems to be a new command to him:
"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. (Genesis 9:3)
Please note: "EVERYTHING that lives and moves for FOOD". No prohibition of any kind. To imply otherwise is to ADD to the Bible what it doesn't say. I think that clean and unclean distinction only applied to sacrifices (which Noah performed to G-d).
"These are all laws that predate Sinai and were given to all mankind, not just Israel! Wow!"
Again, let's review Laws given ONLY to Israel (with no record of ANYONE else commanded to observe them BEFORE they were given to Israel):
1) Shabbat
2) Biblical Feasts
3) Dietary Laws
4) Sacrifices in the Temple for purification (to enter the presence of G-d as a congregation)
5) Cleanliness Laws that have to do with purity
6) Relational laws (laws against marriage to one's half-sister, for example.)
7) Circumcision ("This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. Genesis 17:10-11) This was passed to Israel through their forefathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and again restated in Genesis. Of course, non-Hebrews were also circumcised, but ONLY if they lived in the household of a Hebrew or belonged to the Israelite community.
"Paul also refused to circumcise a gentile, Titus, because folks were saying he had to be circumcised to be saved. All stuff you agree with."
Why refuse to circumcise if that such an important commandment for EVERYONE? Why not say "Look, you Gentiles must do this, but don't do this for salvation"? Why is not this disclaimer for Gentiles ever presented? I think its absence is quite glaring for those today insisting on Gentiles undergoing the procedure.
"Paul circumcised Timothy, also a gentile by his father."
Yes, Timothy was a Gentile by his father (I agree with that). However, he DID have a Jewish mother and grandmother and you can say was ADOPTED as a son by the "super-Jew" Paul (1 Timothy 1:2). One could argue that both of these circumstances allowed for Timothy's circumsion.
However, notice the MAIN REASON he was circumised - and it was not for COVENNANT FAITHFULLNESS and as example for all Gentiles:
"Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him BECAUSE OF THE JEWS who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek." (Acts 16:3)
So, it's quite clear WHY Paul had Timothy circumcised and it wasn't to give an example for all of the Gentiles but to take Timothy to serve among the Jews with Paul - that's all!
"There is joy and health and righteousness in following God's laws..."
Amen - AGREED!
Gene
Ok, let's take this a piece at a time. This is good stuff.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Sabbath, you asked,
Just because G-d rested on the 7th day, didn't make this into a automatic commandment for ALL of humanity. There's no single reference in the Bible that non-Israelites observed Shabbat.
God set the example himself through resting and made the Sabbath holy by his own doing. If that were only for Israel, why this example for all mankind long before Israel existed?
What it comes down to, Gene, is that I cannot, in good conscience, tell people to treat as ordinary something God himself made holy and set-apart.
Once God revealed to us explicitly that he wants us to keep his Sabbath holy, it is elitist of us to say, "Well, you gentiles are different, God doesn't care if you keep His Sabbath." I firmly believe that God desires all his children to respect and honor the thing He made holy!
I cannot, in good conscience, tell people to disregard the actions of our Messiah who kept the Sabbath and the Feasts. Neither could Paul, for he commanded the Corinthians to keep the Passover.
Now that God has called out the gentiles as His own people, granting no special favors to Jew over gentile, why should His standards for His people change?
God does not have 2 standards of right and wrong, 2 standards of sin. What was sin before Sinai (unclean sacrifices, sexual immorality at S'dom, murder at Eden, etc.) was the same as sin after Sinai. Sinai only made it more explicit to a people God called out for himself. Why should we expect any different now that the gentiles have come to know the God of Israel?
Judah...
ReplyDelete"God set the example himself through resting and made the Sabbath holy by his own doing. If that were only for Israel, why this example for all mankind long before Israel existed?"
I asked you for scripture references which you seemed to overlook - can you give me an example in the scripture where people (anyone) kept the Sabbath holy BEFORE G-d made it a requirements for Israel to do so and made it a sign of covenant specifically with Israel? Did Noah or Avram keep it holy, did Yitzhak or Yaakov, or did the 12 patriarchs?
"Now that God has called out the gentiles as His own people, granting no special favors to Jew over gentile, why should His standards for His people change?"
My friend, this is what an acquittance of my would call a "mitzvot envy". Judah... there are no special favors to Jews (although I would say that G-d calling Jews "beloved" because of their forefathers is pretty special, don't you think?) - however, there are different purposes and requirements. Just as in the example I gave you earlier - G-d has different purposes and requirements for men and women. Just because they are different, doesn't mean that one is more or less favored! Equal before G-d, but with different plans, purposes and obligations. Different members of the Body have different functions - that's biblical, right?
"Why should we expect any different now that the gentiles have come to know the God of Israel?"
Because Gentiles are not Jews, and Jews are not Gentiles. We ARE different (but equals in sin and salvation - although Jews, scriptures say, should get a first shot at the latter - discrimination?), and to ignore this is to ignore history and scriptures. Each member of Messiah's Body has a different function. These are differences that G-d himself created.
Remember how scriptures proclaim that 10 men of every nation will grab a tzit-tzit of a Jew - in Yeshua's Kingdom of all places?(Zechariah 8:23). How dare G-d preserve Jews as Jews and continue to give them such an honor!!!? Elitism! Inequality! Right??
Shalom,
Gene
Ok Gene, you got me, Genesis doesn't say whether they did.
ReplyDeleteI don't know whether you read the Talmud -- I know many Messianics poo-poo it -- you'll find the rabbis state that certain patriarchs did keep it, and also that the Feasts played a role in many of the events in Genesis.
Now that I've answered your question best I can, here's a question for you: is there Scripture that specifically tells gentiles to disregard the sabbath or the Feasts?
This post from First Fruits of Zion indicate how there was one Torah for both the Israelites and the foreigners living among them. The New Testament suggests a favorable view of both Feasts and Sabbath as well:
Paul told gentiles from Corinth to keep the Feast of Passover, after all, Messiah is the Passover lamb for the whole world, not just Jews.
The New Testament also suggests "There remains a Sabbath for the people of God."
While celebrating the Passover, Messiah himself said, "When you do this, do it in remembrance of Me." Is it only the Jews that ought to remember Messiah? Passover is more than the Exodus story; indeed, it is a picture of the spotless Lamb whose blood causes death to passover each of us -- both Jew and gentile.
Messiah himself, again setting the example as did his Father, kept the Sabbath rest.
Messiah also said, "Anyone who breaks even the least of the commandments in the Torah and teaches others to do so will be considered least in the kingdom of heaven." Notice he did not limit this warning to Jews only! And the commandment of the Sabbath is hardly a least commandment -- instead, it's so important it found it's way into the Decalogue.
Gene, let's step back for a moment. We are both in agreement that there is joy and blessing in keeping God's commandments. The Psalmist said, blessed is the man who delights in the law of the Lord.
If the Torah is such a delight, joy, blessing, and we both agree that it is, why not recommend this same joy and blessings to gentiles?
Hi Judah...
ReplyDelete"I don't know whether you read the Talmud -- I know many Messianics poo-poo it"
Judah... I respect Talmud as a work of my Jewish ancestors. At the same time, I do not place on it the same value as I do on Torah and Tanakh (as OJs do). I read (small) parts of it in my research. The same Talmud explicitly states that children of a Jewish father and gentile mother are gentiles (which I know YOUR don't agree with). There are other issues like that, so I take everything I read in Talmud with a grain of salt (but with respect).
"...is there Scripture that specifically tells gentiles to disregard the sabbath or the Feasts?"
No, there's not. My personal view is that if they choose to do so, that's definitely not something sinful or wrong. I would definitely prefer THAT to celebration of X-mas and Easter (which are historically Catholic holidays). The differences here is that I don't see the scripture placing a requirement on Gentiles to observe these as it does on the Jews. They are free to observe or not observe, but Jews MUST observe them because it's part of the covenant made with Israel - for them not to do so is sin (in my reading of scriptures). I hope that this explains where I stand on the issue.
"This post from First Fruits of Zion indicate how there was one Torah for both the Israelites and the foreigners living among them."
Judah... one Torah, but this Torah contains different obligations for the various groups that lived in Israel at the time. Different obligations fell on priests, levites, fathers, mothers, slaves, children, relatives, and yes, foreigners living among Israelites.
Judah, is the above not so? Foretermore, when you claim that the Law was to be applied the same for Israelites and foreginers living among the, how would you explain the fact that a Jew could sell a non-kosher mean to the alien? Let's take a look at this scripture:
"You shall not eat anything which dies of itself. You may give it to the ALIEN who is in YOUR TOWN, so that he may eat it, or you may SELL it to a FOREIGNER, for you are a holy people to the LORD your God." (Deuteronomy 14:21)
At the same time, laws punishing murder, theft, rape, blasphemy, and violation of Shabbat (while within the walls of Israeli city) is punishable upon all. The difference here is that THOSE violations are criminal violations and are PUBLIC in nature and affected the whole society. Employing a Gentile to do work for a Jew or do business with a Jew on Shabbat (shabbos goy) would cause Israelites to sin(and is an example of trying to circumvent G-d's Law), so Gentiles were not allowed to work in Israel on Shabbat. Those foreigners who wanted to enter the Jewish city on Shabbat to trade were locked out and had to stay outside of the walls until next day for this very reason (see Nehemiah).
"The New Testament also suggests "There remains a Sabbath for the people of God.""
This a difficult verse to analyze. In the context is seem to speak of a "spiritual" type of rest we find in Yeshua, the rest that only He gives. Also, since the preceding paragraph talk about Israel, Paul could have simply talked about Israel as "People of G-d".
In any case, as I said before, Gentile CAN keep Shabbat if they choose (and it may be good for them). Definitely better then calling Sunday the "New Shabbat".
"Notice he did not limit this warning to Jews only!"
Judah... his audience was his fellow Jews. Remember that most things in the Torah are directed at Jews and the Yeshua stated that he was sent only to the "lost sheep of Israel". His missions was expanded to Gentiles only after his resurrection, and the requirements of Gentile observances are stated in Acts 15.
"If the Torah is such a delight, joy, blessing, and we both agree that it is, why not recommend this same joy and blessings to gentiles?"
Because the Holy Spirit, Paul, and the apostles didn't find it necessary to do so. Paul doesn't admonish Gentiles for not observing Shabbat, eating pork, for not doing the ritual washings, and many other Jewish things. Is this not so?
Again, there's a Law that G-d has already established for all people - to love Him and fellow men. Mosaic laws are an extrapolation on the same theme, but for Israel specifically.
Thanks Judah... good discussion!
Gene,
ReplyDeleteBecause the Holy Spirit, Paul, and the apostles didn't find it necessary to do so. Paul doesn't admonish Gentiles for not observing Shabbat, eating pork, for not doing the ritual washings, and many other Jewish things. Is this not so?
Yes and no. Yes, not specifically about observing shabbat, but Acts 15 tells us they all agreed to make new gentile converts keep some of the Torah and ended their ruling with, "For Moses is preached in every city on the Sabbath."
Acts 15 leads me to believe 3 things:
1. You do not have to be circumcised to be a follower of Messiah.
2. At least some of the Torah is good for gentile believers in Messiah.
3. The apostles where hinting that as the rest of the Torah is preached everywhere, gentiles will pick up more as God leads. (I'm extrapolating this from their statement about Moses being preached.)
Anyways, very good discussion. It is obvious we won't convince each other entirely, but at least there is clarity where we stand.
Judah...
ReplyDelete"1. You do not have to be circumcised to be a follower of Messiah."
Agreed!
"2. At least some of the Torah is good for gentile believers in Messiah."
Agreed!!!
"3. The apostles where hinting that as the rest of the Torah is preached everywhere, gentiles will pick up more as God leads. (I'm extrapolating this from their statement about Moses being preached.)"
Hard to tell what the true meaning is here, at what exactly they were hinting (I submitted an alternate explanation before). So, without looking elsewhere in the scripture for support (meaning just going by this verse alone), one of us may be correct.
In any case, it's WISE and I would say REQUIRED of Gentiles to study the Torah and Tanakh scriptures - they are all that Yeshua, Paul and others had. Not everything in scriptures is applicable to everyone (as far as observances & obligations go - I think this part is established and common sense), but ALL of it is beneficial to KNOW and take to heart, for both Jew and Gentile alike.
If that's what the apostles meant when they spoke of Moses being preached and Gentiles hearing it, then I agree.
Shalom and have a nice one.
Gene
The Torah is for gentiles, too, but the way the gentiles follow the Torah is different. Moses gave the Torah to the Jews, not the gentiles. The gentiles follow the Torah by following the laws for gentiles as laid out by the orthodox rabbis. Neither gentile nor jew follows the Torah by believing in yoshka/JC.
ReplyDeleteVery cool topic, although not much of a writer, but I do want to say to my knowledge Sunday is not supposed to be the Christians version of the Sabbath but the day of the
ReplyDeletelord the empty tomb his DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION. Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread.
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe first day of the week would be Saturday at sundown. This is because Hebrew days start and end at sundown, not at 12:00 midnight.
so at what times are sundown is sunset included?
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your question.
ReplyDeletesorry I mean then what time is shabbat over? when does the first day of the week begin?
ReplyDeleteShabbat ends when the sun goes down on the 7th day of the week, which is our Saturday.
ReplyDeleteThe first day of the week begins when Shabbat ends.
In plain English :), the first day of the week starts Saturday night.
Most Christians think this Hebrew system backwards, but if you think about it, beginning a day at 12:00am doesn't make much sense either! :-)