The ending of that blog post, I wrote,
If any of you fine blog readers believe I've misrepresented John Hagee in any way, please let me know in the comments; I don't mean to spread lies about anyone, but only to bring things to light, resulting in clarity.
Well, it turns out Hagee is not so far off after all: one commenter, Lou Vasquez, noted,
He [Hagee] is stating the issue poorly, probably for the shock value of it.
He is trying to say that Yeshua (Jesus) did not come as the perceived Messiah by most Jews but came as the suffering servant. Most Rabbinical Jews that I know only know of the Messiah as the coming King (Meshiach ben David).
What Hagee is trying to say here, but it is offensive, is that He did not come as King but as the servant, “Meshiach ben Yoseph”.
To clarify, the idea of 2 Messiahs is a very old, very common idea in Judaism:
- Moshiach Ben David: The Messiah son of David who, like David, becomes physical, political king over Israel, conquers all the nations, and finally brings lasting peace. This is the Messiah prophesied of in Scriptures like Isaiah 2.
- Moshiach Ben Yosef: The Messiah son of Joseph who, like Joseph, suffered through many hardships, only to bring about the salvation of the whole world. This is the Messiah prophesied of in Scriptures like Isaiah 53.
According to Lou's comment, John Hagee may be merely saying Jesus was not Moshaich Ben David the Jews were expecting. Indeed, Jesus did not conquer the nations, judge the world, or bring lasting peace, as is prophesied of the Messiah son of David.
On the contrary, Jesus fits the Moshiach Ben Yosef perfectly and fulfilled the prophecies concerning him to a tee.
Therefore, it is believed Jesus was Moshaich Ben Yosef. New Testament prophecy in Revelation has it that Messiah will return as Moshaich Ben David, and will conquer the nations and bring lasting peace to the world.
Getting back to Hagee, I realized I need more information about what Hagee is really saying in order to have correct discernment on this matter. Is Hagee really saying Jesus wasn't the Messiah, at all? Or was he saying Jesus merely wasn't the Messiah the Jews were looking for, Messiah Ben David?
Well, I decided the best way would be to buy the book and give it a read. (I'm such a tool, I know!)
Turns out, Hagee is saying Jesus wasn't the Messiah son of David. He doesn't quite put it in those words, but rather, he says Jews were looking for the Messiah who would throw off the Roman Empire and make Israel independent and great once again, and who would bring peace finally. Jesus wasn't that person.
Hagee makes his case by saying, even the disciples thought Jesus was Messiah son of David, even up to the last moment Jesus was here on earth. From Acts 1 in the New Testament,
So when they met together, they asked him, "Master, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
From this, we see even the disciples didn't understand; they still thought Jesus was going to become physical king of Israel, throw off the Roman bondage, restore Israel to its once-great status, righteously judge all nations, and finally bring lasting peace to humanity. But Messiah responded by saying it isn't for us to know when that time is. We don't get to know.
John Hagee is correct in saying Jesus was not the Messiah the Jews were looking for. Jesus was not Moshaich Ben David. Instead, Jesus was the Moshaich Ben Yosef -- the suffering servant who would bring salvation to the whole world.
In an ironic twist, most modern Christians today are ignorant of the different roles of Messiah, and believe that when Jesus returns, he'll still be the same pacifist, hippy, peacenik, Greek-looking adonis we've been led to believe he was.
On the opposing side, Jews are *still* waiting for Moshiach Ben David.
And this time, Jews will get what they're expecting, while the gentile world will get something totally radical and foreign: a Jewish revolutionary who becomes ruler of Israel and who righteously judges all nations.
Interesting times!
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Now playing: Steve McConnell - Lord Knows and Remembers
via FoxyTunes
Whatever he was trying to say, it sure has confused things...
ReplyDeleteI have always been taught (and I find it reinforced in scripture)that the Jews looked for an earthly rule and were blinded to the spiritual foundation of that Kingdom in Jesus Christ. Of course, they had to be blinded in order for the Gentiles to be brought in to the Kingdom. If they had not been largely blind to Him and had accepted Him as Messiah then His earthly rule would have begun right then but it would be a Kingdom for the Jews only and not a true fulfillment of God's plan. Yet, it still remains that when God removes the blindness of the Jewish people and they accept Jesus as Messiah His earthly Kingdom rule will begin.
This is what I've been taught as a Gentile Christian. I am sure there are many cultural nuances of which I am not aware.
One big thing that most churches teach that I believe is in error is that it was the Jews who crucified Jesus. They did not do so alone. The Pagan Romans could have stopped them but did not. Jews and Gentiles together crucified Jesus. He became the curse for us all and in Him only can any of us find Salvation.
Pam
I agree Pam, his statement was confusing and shocking, and this probably was intentional.
ReplyDeleteI do agree many Jews are blinded to Messiah's spiritual kingdom, the Moshiach Ben Yosef, if you will. We Jews were, and still are, expecting the earthly ruler. Fortunately, the earthy ruler, Messiah himself, will come one day.
As far as Jews crucifying Jesus, I've never understood why it mattered; Jesus had to die as the sacrifice Passover lamb, so why are we playing a deific whodunnit? :-)
But the ignorance and the antisemitism behind that line about Jews being God-murderers is staggering.
It's ignorant because all of Messiah's first followers, as well as Messiah himself, were Jews. Did we forget that the thousands in Jerusalem -- Jews! -- were shouting "Hosanna" as he entered the city? Generally, the common people in Israel loved Messiah.
It's antisemitic because this "Jews killed Jesus" line has been used as an excuse to murder Jews in the name of Jesus over the centuries.
But it doesn't matter who killed Messiah; he came here to be the sacrifice for our sin.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteGood post, thank you for clarifying. In my response to your last post, I was probably less than gracious toward Hagee. I dislike most of the TV preachers I hear, especially those who twist the Word for their personal gain. Hagee may ultimately be right in what he is claiming, but I don't like the use of shock tactics in order to sell something.
In an ironic twist, most modern Christians today are ignorant of the different roles of Messiah
I am aware of the different roles. I don't think that I know of anyone who doesn't. Maybe it's a Catholic thing. :)
pacifist, hippy, peacenik, Greek-looking adonis
I have never thought of Him that way.
In Christ,
Gary
Gary, I'm on the same page: I don't like TV preachers in general because they ask for money in order to be blessed by God.
ReplyDeleteDid you know my parents led praise and worship for a large church in Illinois led by a TV preacher, their services still televised to this day? My parents were booted from that church after they rejected the televangelist's demands that they play happier music and less solemn worship. :-)
Anyways...I think many Christians don't know of the different roles of Messiah. Not everyone, obviously. But certainly some; even one poster who commented to the first John Hagee post said he wasn't aware of the different roles.
Regarding the "pacifist, hippy, peacenik, Greek-looking adonis" Jesus, hehehe, pardon my venting. :-)
I think back to most every painting of Jesus I see. He looks like a white-skinned, bearded Greek man with a halo (borrowed from Sol Invicuts, thanks Constantine) around his head. It's such a false picture, it drives me nuts! When was the last time you saw a painting of Jesus wearing a talit, tzitzit, traditional Jewish garb, teaching in the Temple as a Jewish rabbi?
Judah,
ReplyDeleteI agree that the common portrayal of Jesus is antisemetic and Christians who divorce the faith from its semetic roots have no idea who they are in Christ.
Pam
Gary said "maybe its a catholic thing." This catholic knows about messiah ben joseph and ben david. Most don't. But I also know lots of protestants who don't.
ReplyDeleteJudah said, "When was the last time you saw a painting of Jesus
wearing a talit, tzitzit, traditional Jewish garb". My answer would be the last time I looked at the cover leaf for a book by a Hebrew Catholic called The Revelation of The Son of Man by Levi Khamor. See link.
http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?item=39
Judah,
ReplyDeleteNo, I didn't know that about your parents. Is it a nationally know preacher?
Our church is blessed to have a wonderful worship leader. I having talked to both our pastor and worship leader and I find that our pastor has absolutely no input into the selection of songs for each service. The pastor preaches what God lays on his heart and the Worship leader plays the songs that God lays on his heart. It is a blessing to see how each one complements the other. It is just another of those wonderful "coincidences" that just seem to happen in the life of a Christian.
Gary,
ReplyDeleteYes, his show is televised on TBN, I believe, so he is known nationally in that sense.
Gary, what type of church do you go to?
Adoremus, that link doesn't seem to be working.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteI attend a Baptist Church. In many ways it is not like the typical southern Baptist church, in some ways we are. Most everything in our church is faith based. You would think that would be a given for any church, but sadly it isn't. Our pastor hardly ever preaches about giving; maybe two times in the four years I have been there. Our budgets are based on each ministry leader praying and seeking God's guidance. God has always provided what we have needed, not only for the budget, but also for our building project. Most southern Baptist churches I have attended are always beating on you to give more money. To me that is coercion, not faith. Most budgets are prepared by examining what was spent last year and making adjustments for growth. To me, that is presumption, not faith.
In Christ,
Gary
Sorry...just copy the entire string and paste into explorer. worked for me.
ReplyDeleteBlessings,
Adoremus
thanks for posting this. someone had just asked if i had seen the clip of hagee.
ReplyDelete"I agree Pam, his statement was confusing and shocking, and this probably was intentional."
ReplyDeleteOf course it was intentional. The promo you're discussing wasn't some off-the-cuff comment made without careful consideration of what one is saying; it was a carefully scripted, produced, edited, reviewed promo.
"I think back to most every painting of Jesus I see. He looks like a white-skinned, bearded Greek man with a halo (borrowed from Sol Invicuts, thanks Constantine) around his head. It's such a false picture, it drives me nuts! When was the last time you saw a painting of Jesus wearing a talit, tzitzit, traditional Jewish garb, teaching in the Temple as a Jewish rabbi?"
ReplyDeleteActually, the common -- and commonly recognized -- depiction of Jesus can be traced back to the Shroud of Turin ... or, to be more precise, to the plausible conjecture of its early history in the East before it re-surfaced in the West following the Crusades.
Just *look* at a photo-negative (which is to say, eye-positive) image of the Shroud of Turin. You immediately recognize it as the picture of Jesus you've grown up seeing.
As for depicting Jesus as a Rabbi, go for it. Just recognize that it's an anachronism, as Rabbinical Judaism didn't exist at the time.
I've seen reproductions of paintings made by Chinese Christians in times past that depict Jesus and his circumstances as Chinese. Big deal.
Some modern Africans depict him as black and his circumstances as African. Big deal.
That is, if one is not trying to reduce Christ in order to score points of some sort (political, racial, etc), it really doesn't matter how one depicts him -- much as it doesn't matter whether one calls him the Anglicized 'Jesus,' or a more Judaic 'Yeshua' (so long as one isn't trying to *use* Christ to advance one's own agenda). Jesus is God's Christ for all peoples.
Hey Ilion, thanks for visiting and commenting as always.
ReplyDeleteYou said,
As for depicting Jesus as a Rabbi, go for it. Just recognize that it's an anachronism, as Rabbinical Judaism didn't exist at the time.
Rabbinical Judaism most certainly did exist at the time; the Pharisees and Sadducees were both manifestations of this form of Judaism. Indeed, they were the roots of those that created the modern Jewish religion after the Temple was destroyed and true Judaism could no longer be practiced according to Torah.
Remember that the gospels have many folks calling Jesus rabbi. The gospels also record Jesus teaching the Temple as a rabbi, being in the Temple during the Feasts of the Lord, and being in the Temple for his passage into adulthood. He most certainly was a rabbi.
One last thing. You said,
paintings of [...] Jesus as Chinese...or depicted as African black[...] Big deal.
Except Jesus wasn't black, or Chinese. He was Jewish, had a Jewish name, Jewish parents, lived a Jewish life in the land of Israel. In short, I am only depicting Yeshua as he was, whereas your examples depict him as something he wasn't.
I'm not condemning such depictions, but we should be aware they are inaccurate. It's good to get back to reality sometimes, and reality is not a Greek-looking adonis peacenik named Iesus Kristos, no matter how much the western world wishes it so.
I am a former Christian who does not want to be known as a Christian because I believe that Christians as a general rule act nothing like the way in which Christ commanded us to. Yet I do believe with all my heart and soul that Yeshua was and is Meschiach! (pardon spelling?) Hagee makes me laugh so I like him but more importantly, in my mind at least, he seems to have a better graps on what the Bible really teaches than any other "Televangist". Yeshua's ministry was distinctly Jewish! He taught in the synagogues and he said that not one jot or tittle of the law would dissapear until all is fulfilled, Yeshua did not set out to create a new religeon, he came to enforce and give clarification to what was and is still the only true religeon to follow Yahwey. With help from Paul, COnstantine and the Church in Roman deliberately divorced the fledgeling Christianity from its Judaic roots and intentionally broke the commandments which Yeshua said would live forever by refusing to honor the Sabbath.
ReplyDeleteHagee is not trying to say that Jesus was not the messiah, only that He was not the Messiah that the people who were alive at that time had been expecting!
In his Kingdom parables, Yeshua clearly told that everyone would be confused and not understand,... take for example the prophesy of Messiah riding into Jerusalem on a colt, the foal of an ass. On that day MANY hundreds, maybe even thousands of Jews sang Hosannah and Blessed is He who COmes in the name of the Lord but about ten paragraphs later you realize that this mulititude of people were no longer around or believeing Him to be God's annoited one anymore. Why? It's explained in the parable of the sewer sewing his seeds. "Some fell by the way side and were gobbled up by the birds of the air" The birds as explained are emmisaries of Satan who snatch away the truth before it has time to grow and take root! Caught up in the excitement of the moment it was easy to believe that Yeshua was the Messiah and the prophesy of riding into town on a donkey was proof positive but after being arrested and whipped, it was just as easy to convince themselves that this particular verse was not prophetic to begin with, after all, Messiah, Gods Annoited one SHOULD be riding a glorious white stallion, not some pathetic donkey! "Gee, what were we thinking?"
Although he doesn't say so, I believe that this explains the Point that Pastor Hagee was trying to make in his book.
James
I am a former Christian who does not want to be known as a Christian because I believe that Christians as a general rule act nothing like the way in which Christ commanded us to. Yet I do believe with all my heart and soul that Yeshua was and is Meschiach! (pardon spelling?) Hagee makes me laugh so I like him but more importantly, in my mind at least, he seems to have a better graps on what the Bible really teaches than any other "Televangist". Yeshua's ministry was distinctly Jewish! He taught in the synagogues and he said that not one jot or tittle of the law would dissapear until all is fulfilled, Yeshua did not set out to create a new religeon, he came to enforce and give clarification to what was and is still the only true religeon to follow Yahwey. With help from Paul, COnstantine and the Church in Roman deliberately divorced the fledgeling Christianity from its Judaic roots and intentionally broke the commandments which Yeshua said would live forever by refusing to honor the Sabbath.
ReplyDeleteHagee is not trying to say that Jesus was not the messiah, only that He was not the Messiah that the people who were alive at that time had been expecting!
In his Kingdom parables, Yeshua clearly told that everyone would be confused and not understand,... take for example the prophesy of Messiah riding into Jerusalem on a colt, the foal of an ass. On that day MANY hundreds, maybe even thousands of Jews sang Hosannah and Blessed is He who COmes in the name of the Lord but about ten paragraphs later you realize that this mulititude of people were no longer around or believeing Him to be God's annoited one anymore. Why? It's explained in the parable of the sewer sewing his seeds. "Some fell by the way side and were gobbled up by the birds of the air" The birds as explained are emmisaries of Satan who snatch away the truth before it has time to grow and take root! Caught up in the excitement of the moment it was easy to believe that Yeshua was the Messiah and the prophesy of riding into town on a donkey was proof positive but after being arrested and whipped, it was just as easy to convince themselves that this particular verse was not prophetic to begin with, after all, Messiah, Gods Annoited one SHOULD be riding a glorious white stallion, not some pathetic donkey! "Gee, what were we thinking?"
Although he doesn't say so, I believe that this explains the Point that Pastor Hagee was trying to make in his book.
James
Interesting, James. Thanks for your take on this. I hope you hang around and enjoy the blog.
ReplyDeleteBlessings in Moshiach Y'shua.