For those that don’t know, Messianics almost universally don’t celebrate Christmas. (Why not?)
What followed really showed the diversity within the Messianic movement – wide range of answers, from “It’s idolatry”, to “I say ‘Merry Christmas’ to my Christian friends.”
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Joseph Robert Applegate I tend to put lights on my Sukkah and play Mendlessons Angels we have heard on high to all my neighbors but I like them to think I am a harmless lunatic
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Judah Gabriel Himango My wife, a wonderful Christian woman, decided this year to do the full out Christmas stuff. I'm uncomfortable with it. It's caused some strain.
Furthermore, I run Chavah Messianic Radio, and several folks have complained that Marty Goetz has a few songs on there, like "O Come, O Come, Immanuel", which have become associated with Christmas.
As it stands, my house is decorated with both Hanukkah lights, menorah, etc. but also Christmas elements like pine wrap, Christmas ornaments. I objected to a tree, otherwise that'd be up, too.
Still curious to hear what others think about this.
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Rod Emmert Timmons I think it can be a great tool to share with each and come together in the Spirit of Yeshua, My house is in the boat and we are slowly removing some old items that we hold dear. But my wife and I will not do a tree thing, it has been a few years now, and it's nice not having to spending the monies a spruce :)
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Judah Gabriel Himango Yeah, the tree is an offence to me. I currently believe it's a kind of idol. I'm not one to find a demon under every stone, but I strongly objected to the tree in my house, which caused some additional headaches.
Gosh, I hate this time of year! :-p
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Slade Henson We do not do Christmas but I don't care if anyone else does. I don't see the pagan baggage that some websites espouse.
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Judah Gabriel Himango It seems to me there's a lot of "paganoid" folks out there. I used to be in that camp, too. Even with the exaggeration of the pagan connections, I still feel uncomfortable with decorating a tree with silver and gold, making it the centerpiece of the house, opening gifts under it, singing songs around it (or worse, to it, e.g. Oh Christmas Tree). Meh. Doesn't feel like something Messiah's disciples ought to be doing.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm overstating it. That's how I feel now, though. My wife vehemently disagreed, caused a lot of strain in our house. I'm not sure it's worth fighting over, you know?
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Slade Henson In a thousand years, archaeologists will dig up our houses and will write doctrinal dissertations on how the clock on the wall was an important idol of some kind.
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Dani'el Diegmann Heb 13:2 Do not forget to receive strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained messengers.
It's a time of choosing loyalities and showing evidence of whom one is loyal to. Not an easy time of year for sure.
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Dawn Sexton Pampel I live with my brother and Mother....they celebrate Christmas (but do not celebrate Chanukkah with me)....However my personal belief is that if you are raising up the name of Yeshua and worshiping Him...is that not what matters the most! As believers are we not to be all things to all men to show the love of Yeshua and to not offend others?
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MRav. Avner Solomon Jeremiah 10: 1-5 will give you my opinion of observing C-mas in any form.
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Judah Gabriel Himango I understand, Avner. But if your wife was determined to celebrate Christmas, deeming none of it idolatrous, how do you deal? I am telling you it is not easy.
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Michael Schiffman The way I understand Scripture, an idol is what you lift your heart to. If you have a tree but don't worship it, its just a tree with electric lights on it. Its a seasonal decoration to me, nothing more. Being a Yeshua follower doesn't mean being anti-Christmas. I don't celebrate it personally, but I feel no compulsion to denigrate those who do. I happen to like the music, because its great music. Some of it even contains the Gospel. I have no problem wishing non-Jews a Merry Christmas either. I'm secure enough in who I am to not worry about it. As for the tree being connected to Jeremiah 10, I honestly don't see the connection. Its anachronistic to make such a claim. I have never met anyone who worshipped the tree. If people feel differently about it, I respect their beliefs, but I don't buy it personally.
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Michael Schiffman Heres something I wrote on my blog about it last year.
Oh Tannenbaum, Oh Hanukkah Bush
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Steven A. Bernstein Your relationship with your wife is MUCH more important than banning Christmas. Love her and cherish her and guide her learning. When Mashiach returns Christmas won't be important anyway.
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Michael Schiffman Noel to that!
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Slade Henson I prefer his yartzeit over his birth anyway.
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Judah Gabriel Himango Thanks, guys.
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MRav. Avner Solomon You can always do the commercial Christmas thing and stress that Yeshua was born on Sukkot, not December 25 (if you need a teaching on that with Scripture references, I can send it to you). You can also show how Yeshua was conceived around Kislev 25 (the Light of the World conceived at the time of the Festival of Lights). Also.... make sure it's turkey, not chazer (ham). :)
Steven A. Bernstein Problems with the Sukkot idea are, 1) on Sukkot it is a sin not to be in Yerushalayim and Yeshua did not sin, and 2) the Romans did not take census during pilgrimage festivals. Rosh HaShana fits better as a birth date.
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Michael Mitchel personally, i view all the paganmas stuff nothing more than the 21st century version of the roman holiday of saturnalia. there really is not much of a difference and we have all been brainwashed to think all the trees and elves are all harmless.
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Steven A. Bernstein Nevertheless, millions of Gentiles have been lead to Yeshua through Christmas.
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Rod Emmert Timmons I agree with Schiffman and as one who is married as well, My wife understands, but likes to add her Christmas mix in every year, and outside of myself I can do nothing, but I can ad all my Hanukkah stuff and I can now feel the sway of doing that every year. I have my Mother in Law that like to tell my wife all the time that she not Jewish!... even to the point of naming my boy. She ask what did you name him?...hum? We name him ASHER!
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Dawn Sexton Pampel Dr. Michael Schiffman~Thank you for sharing your Blog....I found it to be of great help to me in this Season....
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Michael Schiffman thanks.
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Joseph Robert Applegate Okay since Chanukah roaching and falls on the winter Soltice this year, here is an early chanukah present from mattisyahu... a little YidHop video called MIRACLE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv-7WdpB72o&feature=player_embedded
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Linda Bedwell A parable for those clinging to Xmas instead of Sukkot:
The cheerful little girl with bouncy golden curls was almost five. Waiting with her mother at the checkout stand, she saw them, a circle of glistening white pearls in a pink foil box..
"Oh Mommy please, Mommy. Can I have them? Please, Mommy, please?"
Quickly the mother checked the back of the little foil box and then looked back into the pleading blue eyes of her little girl's upturned face.
"A dollar ninety-five. That's almost $2.00. If you really want them, I'll think of some extra chores for you and in no time you can save enough money to buy them for yourself.. Your birthday's only a week away and you might get another crisp dollar bill from Grandma."
As soon as Jenny got home, she emptied her penny bank and counted out 17 pennies. After dinner, she did more than her share of chores and she went to the neighbor and asked Mrs. McJames if she could pick dandelions for ten cents. On her birthday, Grandma did give her another new dollar bill and at last she had enough money to buy the necklace.
Jenny loved her pearls. They made her feel dressed up and grown up. She wore them everywhere, Sunday school, kindergarten, even to bed. The only time she took them off was when she went swimming or had a bubble bath. Mother said if they got wet, they might turn her neck green.
Jenny had a very loving daddy and every night when she was ready for bed, he would stop whatever he was doing and come upstairs to read her a story. One night as he finished the story, he asked Jenny, "Do you love me?"
"Oh yes, Daddy. You know that I love you."
"Then give me your pearls."
"Oh, Daddy, not my pearls. But you can have Princess, the white horse from my collection, the one with the pink tail. Remember, Daddy? The one you gave me. She's my very favorite."
"That's okay, Honey, Daddy loves you. Good night." And he brushed her cheek with a kiss.
About a week later, after the story time, Jenny's daddy asked again, "Do you love me?"
"Daddy, you know I love you."
"Then give me your pearls."
"Oh Daddy, not my pearls. But you can have my baby doll. The brand new one I got for my birthday. She is beautiful and you can have the yellow blanket that matches her sleeper."
"That's okay. Sleep well. Yahua bless you, little one.. Daddy loves you."
And as always, he brushed her cheek with a gentle kiss.
A few nights later when her daddy came in, Jenny was sitting on her bed with her legs crossed Indian style.
As he came close, he noticed her chin was trembling and one silent tear rolled down her cheek.
"What is it, Jenny? What's the matter?"
Jenny didn't say anything but lifted her little hand up to her daddy. And when she opened it, there was her little pearl necklace . With a little quiver, she finally said, "Here Daddy, this is for you."
With tears gathering in his own eyes, Jenny's daddy reached out with one hand to take the dime store necklace, and with the other hand he reached into his pocket and pulled out a blue velvet case with a strand of genuine pearls and gave them to Jenny.
He had them all the time. He was just waiting for her to give up the dime-store stuff so he could give her the genuine treasure. So it is, with our Heavenly Father. He is waiting for us to give up the cheap things in our lives so that he can give us beautiful treasures.
Yahua will never take away something without giving you something better in its place.
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Michael Schiffman Yeshua didn't give Chrstmas, but he didnt take it away either. some of his followers are trying to do that.
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Steven A. Bernstein It can only be Sukkot if one believes Yeshua sinned.
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Michael Schiffman In the Jewish world, we don't celebrate birthdays, but Yartzeits. ITs the culmination of the life we celebrate, not the beginning
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Robert Rubenking Judah G. H.:
There is one Torah for both the native born and for the Christian convert... The ALMIGHTY tells us that we are to have nothing to do with vain celebrations and the practice of false religions.
December 25th is not the birthday of Yeshua; it is the traditional celebration of the birth of Mithras (the Greco-Roman sun-god), so why would any Bible-believing Christian or Jew want to have anything to do with that celebration. More than likely, Yeshua was born on the 15th Day of Tishrei, and Scripture and historical evidence seem to support this. So if you want to celebrate the birth of MESSIAH, then have fun at Sukkot, but have nothing to do with the foolish ways of pagan peoples...
Blessings,
Bob
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Joseph Robert Applegate Try not visualising the cup half full and realise that people are walking around shopping malls listening to Mendelsson's (a Jew) Angels we have heard on high and thinking about a messiah in a sukkah (even though they call it a manger! Your mission if you are ready to accept it is to tell them the difference!)
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Slade Henson @ Steven Bernstein: your post on the invalidity of a Sukkot timeframe have fallen on deaf ears. I wanted to let you know that some noticed.
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Joseph Robert Applegate Slade Achi, do you celebrate the festival of Saturnailia?
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Slade Henson No, Joseph, I do not. I don't celebrate Christmas either.
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Michael Schiffman I don't celebrate Xmas, but I might start doing it just to piss you guys off.
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Michael Schiffman Maybe I'll go to the Salvation Army and donate my time on Christmas, along with the many Jewish people who do it so their christian friends can have the time off to be with their families. Instead of a Christmas tree, how about a lit up palm tree... theres more room for presents. Doesn't make it a christmas tree.. its just a tree with lights on it.. but hey.. wait.. isn't that what a christmas tree is? Just a tree with lights on it? The Soviets had the same thing, only they called it a new years tree.... so is the tree a communist symbol? You guys need to get a grip on reality. How do you guys ever use the calendar.. after all, isn't Thursday named after THOR, the pagan god? how about months? weren't some of them named after pagan gods? if you knew the origins of everything, you would never do anything. Even some of the psalms borrowed words from the canaanites... the key is.. HOW DO WE use them? A tree is just a tree, a kiss is just a kiss, and a cigar is just a cigar.. and I'm going to light one up..... JEEZ! - just a statement of frustration..... not invoking any pagan deity... relax.
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Ruby Bender The scripture says not to cut a tree from the forest and decorate it. I think they viewed it as having a spirit- perhaps a reincarnated spirit of a dead person they considered a deity - and they did it in a worship form. A potted plant or tree doesn't oppose scripture as I see it - but to decorate it - might not be the thing to do. Do you want seasonal decorations to brighten up the time? How about white and blue lights around your window to celebrate Chanukah with Israelite colors?
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Michael Schiffman what about a palm tree.. they don't grow in forests....
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Michael Schiffman the scripture was referrring to a pagan rite that had nothing to do with christmas trees. they didn't even have fir trees in Israel, so it had to be some other kind of tree.
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Steven A. Bernstein Where does Scripture say that?
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Joseph Robert Applegate Jeremiah 10
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Slade Henson Ruby is making reference to Jer 10. This is a common attack against Xmas. However, if a decorated tree is an aveira, then substituting a window would likewise be so. I'm so glad G-d is far more merciful than His followers.
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Steven A. Bernstein Wow, Jer 10 doesn't say anything like that. Mitzvot only occur in Torah. The Prophets sometimes reiterate them.
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Steven A. Bernstein Jer states the practice is hevel and can cause neither good nor evil. It supports R. Schiffman.
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Robert Rubenking Michael S.
They did have cedars, and I have read archeological reports, showing that spruce were imported and decorated by some of the pagan priests... In fact, some reports state that the Asheriym of Jer. 10 were groves of decorated cedars... The term can be equally applied to trees and to obelisks...
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Slade Henson Mitzvot only occur in Torah. Excellent point!
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Steven A. Bernstein If the practice can cause neither good nor evil, then who cares?
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Agudat Bris here is what I think about it. Listen to this http://nazarenespace.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2182335%3ABlogPost%3A161326&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_post
The Clear Truth about Christmas - Nazarene Space
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Steven A. Bernstein Here is the problem. If Christmas is rejected because it is pagan, then all of Christianity must be rejected for the same reason. Practices such as once weekly services, Communion, pulpit facing the congregation, choir robes, holding hands during prayer, bowing head during prayer, praying before eating, all originate in paganism.
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Michael Schiffman robert R.. it still doesnt make it a christmas tree.. totally anachronistic. If pagans ate steak, it doesnt make eating steak pagan.. sorry, its too contrived. We all have our axes to grind, and we all try to make it seem like ours are holy ones, but one thing doesn't equal another. Pagans offered cows on their altars.. it didn't stop God from commanding Israel to offer cows on theirs.
