Tomorrow, December 7th, 2010, every unmarried Jew in the world will marry a gentile. Instantly, the Jewish people are doomed: their kids will lose their identity as Jews. A generation or two later, they’ll become gentiles.
Voila! No more Jews.
That’s the fear among religious Jews, at least.
Intermarriage, as it’s called, will destroy the Jewish people by assimilation.
And while it’s not going to happen tomorrow, it’s happening at a staggering rate, with some commentators suggesting a 50% intermarriage and assimilation rate in Western nations, with some places as high as 90%.
In other words, 1 of every 2 Jewish people will marry a gentile and their kids will be assimilated into the nations as gentiles, thus losing Jewish identity in a generation or two.
James Pyles, a gentile Messianic married to a non-believing Jewish wife, asks tongue-and-cheek:
I'm a Gentile and my wife is Jewish! Should I divorce her for the sake of her Judaism?
I am a Gentile Christian (I consider myself "Messianic" but my wife thinks of me as a "Christian") and my wife is genetically, ethnically, and religiously (non-Messianic) Jewish.
James details a his marriage to his wife 30 years ago – when both were secular – and how they’ve changed their paths since then: him becoming Messianic, her going Chabad.
Go read James’ post. Go read it, now.
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Back already?
Ok.
Still not convinced intermarriage is a real problem? Stats back this up:
During the Soviet era, there was a steady decline in the official Jewish population from 2,267,800 in 1959 to 1,450,500 Jews in 1989. Then, from 1990-2000 period, a further 980,000 Jews (1.4 million by the Law of Return definition of a Jew) emigrated from the FSU (Former Soviet Union). Meanwhile, in Russia, there were then about 2.8 Jewish births and 30.0 deaths per 1,000 Jewish population. Intermarriage was about 70 percent. and close to 80 percent in Ukraine and Latvia in 1996; furthermore a non-Jewish nationality was generally preferred for the children of outmarried.
Other world statistics are a bit more optimistic, but still not that good, suggesting about 1/3rd of all Jews intermarry:
Religious Jews freak out about this stuff. No, really, some religious Jews say this is the worst thing to happen since the Holocaust:
Six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, 12 million were left afterwards. Today there are only 13 million Jews in the world. Where are the rest that by natural increase should number close to 20 million? The answer is that the silent holocaust of assimilation has caused them to disappear as Jews.
While that’s from a biased source, note the staggering statistic: he’s saying there are 13 million Jews today when there should be 20 million.
In other words, 7 million Jews have been lost to assimilation since 1945.
That’s more Jews than died in the Holocaust.
Ouch.
I do wonder whether these statistics account for the inverse scenario of gentiles who rediscover Jewish ancestry, thus creating Jews out of thin air, and also those gentile proselytes. But let’s set that a side for a moment and ask, who cares? Does God care?
Is it important for Messianic Jews to avoid marrying gentiles?
Obviously for traditional Judaism, intermarriage is a problem. If Jews disappear, Judaism does, too, so it’s a matter of survival. Duh.
And for Christianity, no one gives a turd. We’re all One In Jesus, blahbity blah blah.
But for Messianics, there’s something interesting here.
We Messianics are certain God intended for the survival of his special people, Israel. It’s all over the Bible, including the New Testament. So we should side with the Orthodox Jews, right? No intermarriage. Frown on that shih-tzu with a righteous frown!
After all, God told Israel not to marry gentiles.
In the famous 613 commandments list compiled by a medieval Jewish scribe, commandment #162 is “not to marry non-Jews”. It’s taken from Deuteronomy 7:3:
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.
-Deuteronomy 7:1-4
Although the commandment is not to intermarry with the nations occupying the Canaan area, modern religious Jews extend this to mean “don’t intermarry with gentiles, period.”
So, do we follow the Orthodox Jewish route and frown on Jews marrying gentiles?
Look at the commandment. Unlike most commandments, God actually gives a reason for this commandment. The reason is:
They [the gentile spouse] will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods.
Christians may be misguided about many things, but they are not serving other gods.
Christians are worshiping the God of Israel. Jesus is not a 2nd god. (Can I get an ‘amen’?! 
If we can agree that gentile disciples of Messiah are not worshiping other gods, then we must concede that the “no intermarriage” commandment does not apply to Christians.
Yep. It follows: there is a commandment against marrying pagans, but Christians are not the old pagans of yesteryear. (Sorry to all you paganoid demon-under-every-stone types!) Even the strictest Messianic Jew will concede gentiles in Messiah are part of the commonwealth of Israel; this commandment, then, could not work against them, seeing they are co-heirs and fellow citizens.
Jewish Messianics may object, “But what about the preservation of the Jewish people?”, and they have a point, but we must concede that that goal is a given, not a commandment. There is no commandment that says a Jew cannot marry a gentile follower of Yeshua.
To claim Deuteronomy 7 applies to gentiles in Messiah is to claim such people are following other gods, in essence, claiming Christians are idolaters and deserve death through stoning.
My Personal Intermarriage Story
You might say I’m biased. I’m part Jewish, and I married a beautiful and lovely and sweet and kind gentile Christian woman, Kristin. (Hold back your righteous frowns, you ivory-tower-dwelling religious butt-heads!)
I’m part Jewish, you see, and my wife is a gentile Christian.
My dad is Jewish, now certified as such by an Chabad Orthodox rabbi, and I have been raised as a son of the commandments and a servant of the God of Israel since I was a child. I have been keeping God’s commandments for 2 decades. I attended a church with my wife the other week, and someone asked if we had put our Christmas tree up yet; I responded, “As a Jew, I celebrate Hanukkah”. I love the people and land of Israel. I defend our people against anti-Semitism wherever I see it, public or private. I identify as a Jew.
Granted, I’m no thoroughbred. Modern religious Jews trace descent through the mother, and not the father; strict religious Jews may consider me a gentile. And the state of Israel has yet a different, broader standard for determining who is a Jew. Ultimately, I don’t care about what those groups think; I’m not looking for Orthodox Jewish approval, praise God.
More importantly, I identify myself as a follower of the Messiah, the only real Jewish Messiah, the future King of Israel, the person who showed us how to live the Torah: Yeshua. My identity lies first in Yeshua, before all other affiliations.
Does being Messianic get in the way?
When I married my wife, Kristin, the thought never occurred to me, “should you be marrying a gentile?”
Seriously, it never once crossed my mind.
Even if it had, it wouldn’t have made a difference. I knew there would be religious differences, but, as they say, love conquers all. And romantic love ain’t no exception, boy!
It wasn’t until being surrounded with and subjected to voices in the Messianic Jewish/Proselyte blogosphere telling me how evil it is to intermarry; only then did this question cross my mind. Should I prepare my face for a big honkin’ righteous frown when it comes to sweet forbidden Jew-gentile lovin’?
So here I am, 7 years into a kind of intermarriage, and folks on my side of the religious aisle more than ever are frowning on this kind of thing.
There have been problems in my marriage. Hey, I’m being honest. There have been problems as a result of our religious differences. Yep. But love really has conquered here. I mean, despite our religious differences, I really love my wife. I have no desire to marry anyone else. Religious pedants be damned. I love her.
Will my kids grow up following other gods? Ha. If any person can answer that with certainty, he has a career in fortune telling.
I will do everything in my power to ensure they won’t follow other gods, or No-God.
And I think I’m doing alright in that regard in raising my kids.
Will my kids grow up to be Christian, totally abandoning all their Jewish heritage, rejecting the commandments, identifying not as Israel but as Church?
Ha. That’s a hard question to answer.
I will do everything in my power to ensure my kids live a Godly life, with an understanding that they are part of Israel, and that the commandments are good and will lead towards a life of real joy in the Lord.
I concede that intermarriage weakens Jewish identity. It certainly will in my kids, no matter how much I protest.
The question is, how much does intermarriage matter?
- Utmost Importance - A silent Holocaust that erases Jewish people, as some stringent religious Jews claim it to be.
- Irrelevant – It doesn’t matter because we are all one body in Christ, as some Christians claim.
Or somewhere in between?
I am convinced: when my life is over, God will have plenty of sins to wash, but none of them will be my marriage to Kristin. It is not a sin for a Jew to marry a gentile follower of Yeshua.
I can’t imagine any of the disciples of Yeshua commanding us, “…if a believer among you is a Jew, let him not marry any gentile believer…”
That sounds more like a nightmare out of an MJTI conference than anything the disciples wrote.
But we don’t really have any great examples of intermarriage, for or against, in the New Testament, perhaps because the Jewish culture of the time itself forbade it. So it’s hard to say with any certainty whether intermarriage is at all important for us as disciples of Yeshua.
But what about Jews disappearing?
It’s a given that God will preserve Israel, one way or another. So relax. God can raise up sons of Abraham from little pebbles on the ground; is it too much for him to do the same for Jacob? Maybe that’s why the disciples found no need to issue such a clarification on Jew-gentile intermarriage, it just wasn’t a major issue. If that’s the case, we too should avoid making it a major issue.
Orthodox Judaism has been trying to preserve Israel by shunning intermarriages, and they’ve failed. Miserably. Intermarriage will happen when Jews are around gentiles. For Messianic Judaism, where Jews and gentiles are going to worship together, of course there’s gonna be a little Jew-gentile lovin’ going on.
Perhaps a deeper problem is the exile. Israel is in exile. When in exile, you tend to pick up the surrounding culture’s…uh, culture.
Intermarriage, then, isn’t the problem, but rather a vehicle and side-effect of the real problem of being exiled.
Perhaps that’s why God re-established the State of Israel. Exile now has a solution, intermarriage largely goes away, Israel is preserved, and God’s plans move forward.
Shunning intermarriage is a proven failure. Messianic Judaism would do well to avoid that failure.
How do you think Messianics should treat intermarriage? Should we consider it a grave sin like the Orthodox Jewish world does? Treat it as irrelevant like the Christian world does? Something in between?
Wow! You really tackled this topic head on. I'm surprised you haven't begun to "gather comments" already.
ReplyDeleteMessianic Judaism certainly has a problem if it approaches intermarriage with the same zeal as the Orthodox and the Ultra Orthodox. Gene was kind enough to give me his assessment on this matter on my own blog and (I don't know if these figures are "official" or can be substantiated) he said that the occurrence of intermarriage of Gentiles and Jews in MJ is up to about 90%! Wow!
Further, among the middle-aged leadership of MJ, a significant percentage of the Jewish men are married to Gentile wives. Again, I don't know how verifiable this statement is, but I don't have a lot of problems believing it's true.
Assuming that such information is completely factual, then Messianic Judaism would appear a tad "two-faced" if on the one hand, it vehemently opposed Jew/Gentile intermarriage within the Messianic lifestyle context and, on the other hand, the majority of its members including its leadership actively practiced intermarriage.
The Orthodox didn't fail at preventing intermarriage - you've got your facts wrong, Judah. They have the least intermarriage of any Jewish groups and at the rate they are procreating they may very well one day become the largest Jewish group of all. Who failed then? The Jews who didn't give two cents about their heritage. It's their progeny who will pay for this (if they will even care).
ReplyDeleteYou are correct about one thing - G-d will preserve Israel, without anyone's help. I don't worry about the "intermarriage holocaust" destroying Israel. Jews can intermarry all they want, they can adopt/convert to whatever culture and religion they prefer. But if a Jew chooses to despise his heritage like Esau did, if they choose to opt out through intermarriage and assimilation it produces in vast majority of cases, it's THAT Jew's and his/her family's loss.
The Jewish nation will survive regardless, true. But as Mordecai told to Esther: "relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another quarter, but you and your father’s family will perish." If you as a Jew choose to forgo your participation in the Jewish nation, someone else will take your place.
There's always hope for the intermarried Jew, but it's mistake to think that a Jew's (yes, even Messianic one) intermarriage and is not a sin (or at least a mistake) against one's heritage and G-d's plan for Israel. Therefore I would strongly urge all single Jewish followers of Yeshua to find themselves a Jewish mate who shares your faith. Those who are already intermarried can work on strengthening their family's bond to the Jewish people and heritage.
Am Yisrael Chai.
"Messianic Judaism would appear a tad "two-faced" if on the one hand, it vehemently opposed Jew/Gentile intermarriage within the Messianic lifestyle context and, on the other hand, the majority of its members including its leadership actively practiced intermarriage."
ReplyDeleteJames, it's not "two-faced" of them to oppose intermarriage today. Most of the current intermarried senior leadership got married well prior to their involvement in Messianic Judaism or where messianic world early on was even more a church with a talit than it's now. Remember, most MJs were seculars who at first ended up in the churches. They were very much assimilated to begin with. They did not care about their Jewish heritage until their involvement in Messianic Jewish world. The fact that some do care now only speaks of their maturity as Jews.
Nice one Judah!
ReplyDeleteHave you read David Rudolph (MJTI)'s book on Messianic Jews marrying Gentiles?
The olive tree marriage - it's quite brilliant.
@Gene,
ReplyDeleteYou think it's a sin for a Messianic Jew to marry a gentile believer. Ok. We disagree.
We agree on one thing: it is preferable for Jews to marry Jews, if only for the fact of less religious stress and disagreements. I can attest to that. :-)
That said, if a Messianic Jew marries a Messianic gentile or a Christian, I would not stop them, I'd just make sure they understand there is additional pains to be endured there. :-)
By the way, Gene, you're married, aren't you? Does your wife share your beliefs?
ReplyDelete@Joe,
ReplyDeleteNice. I like Rudolph. I wasn't aware he was married to a gentile. I will look at his book, that sounds like something I'd be sincerely interested in. (I've been meaning to get some reading material for my new iPad, ha. :-))
"You think it's a sin for a Messianic Jew to marry a gentile believer. Ok. We disagree."
ReplyDeleteIt's not a sin in the same sense as marrying a idolater. However, it is a sin of despising (not caring about) one's heritage. With few exceptions, a Christian/gentile partner will most likely not share in Jew's allegiance to Torah, and that sets up a Jew to fall away from Torah and life as obedient Jew. So, perhaps not idolatry, but in my book that's still sinning.
Also, if a Jew intermarries, most of the time it is because he/she doesn't care much about his heritage as a Jew to begin with. I can give you countless examples of just such Jews that I personally encountered, including in MJ circles not to mention Christian ones. Esau didn't care about his heritage and sold his birthright for temporary physical satisfaction. Was it a sin for Esau to not care about his heritage and if it was, which law did he break? Is not caring about one's Jewish heritage a sin against G-d? I think so.
To each his own though.
"Does your wife share your beliefs?"
ReplyDeleteJudah, yes - and I thank G-d she does.
Gene said: James, it's not "two-faced" of them to oppose intermarriage today. Most of the current intermarried senior leadership got married well prior to their involvement in Messianic Judaism or where messianic world early on was even more a church with a talit than it's now. Remember, most MJs were seculars who at first ended up in the churches. They were very much assimilated to begin with. They did not care about their Jewish heritage until their involvement in Messianic Jewish world. The fact that some do care now only speaks of their maturity as Jews.
ReplyDeleteIt still puts people like Judah and me in a bind in that we're criticized for being intermarried by at least some of the MJ formal leadership who themselves are largely intermarried. Also, if a young couple, one Jew and one Gentile, in the Messianic movement wants to marry and the MJ leadership either strongly discourages it or just flatly says "no", how can said-leadership justify saying, "No, you can't be intermarried, but it's OK for me"? I know that may seem like a cheap shot on my part, but from the young couple's point of view, it will certainly appear to be a double standard.
"how can said-leadership justify saying, "No, you can't be intermarried, but it's OK for me"? I know that may seem like a cheap shot on my part, but from the young couple's point of view, it will certainly appear to be a double standard."
ReplyDeleteJames, same as any "transgression" out there - just because someone used to be an alcoholic in his early life, doesn't mean that he should allow his kids to get drunk and even supply the booze (or else be a hypocrite). We are suppose to learn from our mistakes and teach others - so, it's not a double standard to oppose something one did himself, but an indication that one learned from his/her follies.
I understand what you're saying in principle, but I can hardly look at my wife as if she is a "mistake". I can only hope and pray she doesn't see me that way.
ReplyDeleteI understand what you're saying in principle, but I can hardly look at my wife as if she is a "mistake". I can only hope and pray she doesn't see me that way.
ReplyDeleteLol, exactly...
Gene, if the issue is over an inheritance, what are you inheriting and are gentiles also going to inherit or are they left out?
@ Joseph W. David Rudolph is and isn't intermarried. His wife converted before they got married.
ReplyDelete"Gene, if the issue is over an inheritance, what are you inheriting and are gentiles also going to inherit or are they left out?"
ReplyDeleteI have my opinions on this which I am not going to get into here at this time, but ultimately it will be for G-d to decide. However, inheriting "being a Jew" is enough for me and a responsibility and a reward in of itself.
Thanks Michael. I'm not commenting on Dr Rudolph's personal life other than to say I wish him a happy and prosperous marriage. I just found the book a great read in general, and would recommend it to others.
ReplyDelete@ Joseph W. David Rudolph is and isn't intermarried. His wife converted before they got married.
ReplyDeleteThen, depending on how MJ views conversion, he's not intermarried. If she converted, she should be considered a Jew (there are additional complications depending on whether she converted within Messianic Judaism or within the larger body of Judaism, but for the sake of this discussion, that's beside the point).
I recently read Choosing Judaism by Lydia Kukoff and based on what she wrote, I got the distinct impression that the number one reason why Gentiles (including Kukoff) convert to Judaism is because they are married to or about to get married to a Jew.
By the way, let's hear it for this guy: R. Yaakov Ariel. Good for him!
ReplyDeleteWhen my paternal grandparents were married in 1949, my grandmother was ex-communicated from her family because as a Roman Catholic she married a Protestant. Because of this, there is an entire quarter (and a very *large* quarter at that) of my entire family that I know little or nothing about. My grandparents, while only married for twelve years or so (my grandmother died of a sudden heart attack in 1960) did love one another a great deal, but it came with a cost that my father himself later had to consider when he married (Protestant, most fortunately). To a degree, I would not be here if it were not for a kind of "intermarriage," but my dear Grandad was always bitter toward Catholics as a result of what happened to his wife.
ReplyDeleteAs I discuss in my Acts 15 commentary, I do not only discourage Jewish/non-Jewish intermarriage in most cases, but would discourage other forms of intermarriage when there are significant social and ethnic clashes likely to occur. Spiritual leaders must clearly lay forth the challenges that a potential married couple must face in the Twenty-First Century--now including the long-term effects of the 2008 financial crisis. A man and a woman might think that they are in love, but when they come from (very) different backgrounds--and certainly when children are involved--there can frequently be a price to be paid.
I'm not Jewish at all, but I have seen a similar situation. As a member of a black family, growing up in a white and Hispanic neighborhood, I've never really connected with other blacks. And in fact, all of my nieces and nephews are racially-mixed. My sons are both white (mothers had them when I met them).
ReplyDeleteWhat I've seen is that the kids seem to come to a different view of who they are--their identities come from the mixture, more than from either ancestry-group--and I think that is good.
Perhaps believing Jews should try and avoid marrying believing Gentiles, but to make it an iron rule--as in you're sinning or insensitive to the importance of your heritage if you do--is only going to chase young couples out of the congregation, and possibly completely out of fellowship with Jews (Messianic or not) and Christians both.
That this issue has come up, however, means that it is time for Messianic groups as a whole to tackle the conversion issue.
(Personal footnote: I recently decided not to pursue a cross-ethnic relationship, solely because I felt that one family member's response would unjustly hurt someone I care about.)
The conversation seems to be moving more into the general area of mixed marriages and not just those pertaining to Messianic Judaism. I'm reminded that there was a time in the U.S. when interracial marriage was illegal, and those laws were no doubt based, in part, on some of the concerns being raised in this conversation.
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm a husband in a mixed marriage, I can't speak for everyone who is involved in other mixed relationships. I have to conclude though, that the reason it is no longer illegal to marry someone of a different race in this country is because there was enough of a desire among mixed race couples to marry and establish life-long relationships.
That doesn't address some of the special issues involved in Jews "marrying out", but the final arbiters of who gets married or who does not get married must be the couple, not an external authority. Unfortuately, all of the advice and education in the world won't show a young couple what life will be like together 20 or 30 years down the road, so no outside authority can always "protect" a couple from their own decisions.
"unequally yoked" has nothing to do with ethnicity. I am Jewish, so is my wife. She was a believer when we were married, it took me 22 years after we got married to become a believer. For 22 years we were "unequally yoked" and we both are Jews.
ReplyDeleteTo apply this term to ethnicity is just a joke. My son who is a believer, he is married to an unbeliving Israeli girl, so should they get divorced? My daughter, a believer, is married to an Unbeliving Gentile, should they get divorced?
since there has been talk about Dr. Rudolph...
ReplyDeletehere is a great short read regarding intermarriage.
http://www.intermarrieds.com/files/Intermarriage%20Statistics%20May09%20rev1.pdf
I can't find it at the moment, but he also published statistics about the continuation of Jewish practice within intermarriages. He broke it down by "denomination" (within Judaism).
MJism was among the highest ranking in valuing and continuing Jewish practice.
I'll post it when I find it.
"My daughter, a believer, is married to an Unbeliving Gentile, should they get divorced?"
ReplyDeleteDan, it's not a question of whether should such couples get divorced. No one here brought this up or even implied. Once the couple is married, whether they should have or not, they should do their best to preserve harmony in their marriage (in traditional Judaism intermarriages can be saved through conversion). Instead, the question is whether such pairings are the right thing to begin with. Are they to be supported, encouraged and lifted up as normative, or are they to be discouraged as harmful?
To give an example from the Bible, let's look at David and Bathsheba. Few would disagree that David SHOULD NOT have married her - she was someone else's wife and he murdered her husband. Starting a relationship with such grave sins is not a good start for anyone, much less marrying someone who you are not even allowed to even covet.
Nonetheless, G-d was still able to salvage that improper marriage, although the consequences were very severe for David and his children.
"MJism was among the highest ranking in valuing and continuing Jewish practice."
ReplyDeleteI hate to sound pessimistic about the above statistic, but while it MAY sound like great news at first glace, one is reminded that MJism also has the highest intermarriage rates of any Jewish group, Messianic Jews are a tiny fraction of the total number of Jewish believers out there (most of whom are still in churches and practice nothing), MJ would suffers from extremely poor Jewish education for both the children and adults (believe me, I know from first hand experience with children who were raised in some of the oldest and most established MJ congregations), and that according to the traditional halachic status many of the MJ children are Gentiles.
So Gene, are you in the business fo salvaging marriages, or salvaging a race? Both ways you lose....
ReplyDeleteGene: To give an example from the Bible, let's look at David and Bathsheba. Few would disagree that David SHOULD NOT have married her - she was someone else's wife and he murdered her husband. Starting a relationship with such grave sins is not a good start for anyone, much less marrying someone who you are not even allowed to even covet.
ReplyDeleteNonetheless, G-d was still able to salvage that improper marriage, although the consequences were very severe for David and his children.
David and Bathsheba are a pretty extreme example, given David's behavior (seduction, murder), but Bathsheba was also the mother of Solomon. As you say Gene, God took a relationship that was not only sub-optimal but a total disaster, and created a completely unforeseen set of circumstances. We should consider that the vast majority of Gentile/Jew intermarriages in MJ are hardly brought about by conditions nearly as dramatic as David and Bathsheba's.
As far as whether or not certain people should marry, Yeshua said this:
‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” -Mark 10:7-9
"So Gene, are you in the business fo salvaging marriages, or salvaging a race? Both ways you lose...."
ReplyDeleteDan, I hope you have a nice day:)
"Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” -Mark 10:7-9"
ReplyDeleteJames, I suppose Ezra (e.g. Ezra 9 and 10) would disagree that EVERY marriage out there is G-d-joined.
After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, “The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.” -Ezra 9:1-2
ReplyDeleteThat only applies if you think Messianic Gentiles are idol worshiping pagans like the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. If we are, we can't possibly be in the body of Messiah and our faith is in vain.
This is one of the problems I think BI/MJ has with Gentiles. On the one hand, we are welcomed as fellow disciples of Yeshua, but on the other hand, we are considered (protestations aside) like back woods cousins who are acknowledged as family members, but not included at family gatherings because we're such an embarrassment.
I know I'm overstating the point, but I'm doing so to make a point. Either Yeshua's death and resurrection enabled Gentiles to become covenant members while retaining our Gentile identity, or it didn't. If it didn't and we remain like the Canaanites, et al, then we have no hope.
"but on the other hand, we are considered (protestations aside) like back woods cousins who are acknowledged as family members, but not included at family gatherings because we're such an embarrassment."
ReplyDeleteIs not marrying one's cousins, back woods or not, outlawed in many U.S. states?:) I read that this is because of the risk of severe defects for the resulting progeny.
"Either Yeshua's death and resurrection enabled Gentiles to become covenant members while retaining our Gentile identity, or it didn't."
Of course they share in Israel's blessing through Yeshua. The question is not about that, but whether or not G-d cares if Jews freely intermarry with Gentiles who happen to be believers in Israel's G-d, but who have not converted and taken on the yoke of Torah as given through Moses (officially joined the Jewish people, e.g. circumcised if males, etc.)
If G-d doesn't care about intermarriage, and if He's OK with all Jews intermarrying, I would like to see scriptural support for that view.
On the other hand, if G-d now approves of intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles because we are all "one" anyway (or all Israel, per One-Law and TH theology), then we should actively encourage Jewish people to intermarry, citing such benefits as need to demonstrate the reality of messianic faith's "Olive-Tree" theology in action to the uninitiated Jews and Gentiles, as well educate Jews about the decreased risk of genetic diseases and richness of multiculturalism.
Likewise, I'd like to see Scriptural support for your position that a Messianic Jew marrying a gentile follower of Yeshua is a sin.
ReplyDelete"Likewise, I'd like to see Scriptural support for your position that a Messianic Jew marrying a gentile follower of Yeshua is a sin."
ReplyDeleteJudah, I already covered Jew choosing to marry a Gentile instead of looking for a Jewish mate in my earlier "despising one's heritage like Esau" comment. There are other scriptures I can site, but Esau is a good start.
Another one is that a Gentile believer in Yeshua who is nonetheless is unconverted to Judaism may lead a Jewish believer away from Torah observance, away from Jewish lifestyle and worship, which can be cited as similar to foreign worship Jews were warned against.
BTW, in mainstream Judaism Noahides who, like Christians, also believe in the G-d of Israel and like Gentiles One-Law folks even observe parts of Torah to varying degree are STILL prohibited from marrying Jews. I will do more research on how Jewish thinkers justify this. Should be interesting.
Gene, I was using "back woods cousin" as a metaphor rather than a literal suggestion that cousins should marry (yuk).
ReplyDeleteI was more responding to your suggestion that Messianic Gentiles are like pagan Canaanites, etc. since you were referencing those chapters from Ezra. I was trying to express how the Jews in Messianic Judaism don't seem to know what to do with the Gentiles in their midst and even seem to be embarrassed by our existence.
Ezra was talking about intermarriage between Jews and idol worshipers, not non-Jewish members of the covenant. Of course (as far as we know), Ezra couldn't have anticipated Yeshua the Messiah allowing Gentiles to become part of the Kingdom without being Jewish, so I don't know if his statements can be applied to the current topic.
While I can agree that it is ideal for Jews to only marry other Jews and Gentiles to only marry Gentiles, you're not going to get that to happen 100 percent of the time in the general worldwide population, much less in the Messianic movement. Some provision needs to be made in Messianic organizations for how to address intermarried couples and their children.
"Some provision needs to be made in Messianic organizations for how to address intermarried couples and their children."
ReplyDeleteJames, it's one thing to deal with problems AFTER the fact (and mainstream Judaism does that through education and conversions), but it's wholly other issue to be permissive and not be pro-actively discouraging of intermarriage. With over 90% intermarriage rate (VERY conservatively speaking) within MJism, should not the Messianic Jewish leaders speak out against the phenomenon - or will this be met with protestations of racism, the classic slander of "rebuilding of wall of partition", and accusations of meddling in private lives?
Just to be clear, Gene says a Jewish follower of Jesus who marries a gentile follower of Jesus is sinning, because the Jewish spouse has contempt for his heritage, like the Biblical Esau.
ReplyDeleteMy response:
I do not have contempt for my heritage, nor did I when I married my Christian wife 7 years ago. It is insulting to suggest that because I married a gentile Christian, I must have contempt for my heritage.
"I do not have contempt for my heritage, nor did I when I married my Christian wife 7 years ago. It is insulting to suggest that because I married a gentile Christian, I must have contempt for my heritage."
ReplyDeleteJudah, I tried to avoid getting personal in any way, but since you are - didn't you just mentioned on this blog that your father just recently got confirmation from Chabad rabbi about him being Jewish? With that in mind (and your own halachic Jewish status notwithstanding) I find it hard to imagine that you at the time cared about marrying a Jewess vs. a Gentile. As they say: just saying:)
Gene said: James, it's one thing to deal with problems AFTER the fact (and mainstream Judaism does that through education and conversions), but it's wholly other issue to be permissive and not be pro-actively discouraging of intermarriage. With over 90% intermarriage rate (VERY conservatively speaking) within MJism, should not the Messianic Jewish leaders speak out against the phenomenon...
ReplyDeleteMJ leadership is caught in a Catch-22. On the one hand, they have a legitimate concern regarding the disappearance of Jews due to intermarriage and assimilation and on the other hand, most of them are intermarried. Since all of them got married (to Gentiles) "back in the day", I can only assume they have subsequently learned to esteem their Jewish background. But what do they say to the next generation? "Do as I say but not as I do?"
It's quite a puzzle.
"On the one hand, they have a legitimate concern regarding the disappearance of Jews due to intermarriage and assimilation"
ReplyDeleteIf they do, I have not heard ANY of them express it at any time. Have you? May be they do not care much themselves or I missed something. If they do not, what are we talking about? Perhaps it is only individual MJs that expressed concern, but the majority, including leadership, do not care very much one way or other. Seems so to me...
May I introduce some Burt Bacharach into this heated blog-comment debate?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_trdrLewNho
If they do, I have not heard ANY of them express it at any time. Have you? May be they do not care much themselves or I missed something. If they do not, what are we talking about? Perhaps it is only individual MJs that expressed concern, but the majority, including leadership, do not care very much one way or other. Seems so to me...
ReplyDeleteIf they don't, I guess this is a dead issue and very few Jews in MJ really care about it. On the other hand, when I brought the matter up on this blog post last summer, Derek Leman accused me of supporting replacement theology and Joshua Brumbach said this:
Although I do not believe G-d will allow that to happen, the point is that statistically speaking – Jewish continuity is in trouble! The population of the Jewish people has been shrinking. An intermarriage rate of over 50% does not help (but is hardly the sole cause, either).
The point is that theologically Jews and non-Jews can marry each other. BUT, it is also not necessarily the ideal. In order for the Jewish people to exist into the future, we need to still be around.
They sound concerned to me. Of course, they may represent a minority opinion in MJ and not represent Messianic Jewish leadership. I'm not sure how the leadership organization is structured.
If they do, I have not heard ANY of them express it at any time. Have you? May be they do not care much themselves or I missed something. If they do not, what are we talking about? Perhaps it is only individual MJs that expressed concern, but the majority, including leadership, do not care very much one way or other. Seems so to me...
ReplyDeleteIf you're right, I guess we don't have much to base a conversation on. On the other hand, when I brought the matter up last summer on this blog post Derek Leman accused me of supporting replacement theology and Joshua Brumbach said this:
We must love one another – but not to death! G-d’s role for the Jewish people continues. G-d still has a very clear unfolding plan for the Jewish people into the future. As such, that purpose cannot happen if we cease to exist.
Although I do not believe G-d will allow that to happen, the point is that statistically speaking – Jewish continuity is in trouble! The population of the Jewish people has been shrinking. An intermarriage rate of over 50% does not help (but is hardly the sole cause, either).
The point is that theologically Jews and non-Jews can marry each other. BUT, it is also not necessarily the ideal. In order for the Jewish people to exist into the future, we need to still be around.
They seem pretty concerned to me, but perhaps they represent a minority opinion in MJ and of course, they may not speak for the Messianic Jewish leadership. I'm not actually sure how leadership is defined in MJ, though.
NOTE: I posted a very similar comment a few minutes ago, but it completely vanished. Trying again.
"They seem pretty concerned to me, but perhaps they represent a minority opinion in MJ and of course, they may not speak for the Messianic Jewish leadership. I'm not actually sure how leadership is defined in MJ, though."
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is, since there's no clear consistent guideline from whoever in MJ thinks they are in charge and NT doesn't speak on this subject (I assume in deference to Jewish attitudes towards intermarriage and general respect for law and tradition apostles claimed to uphold), each Jew must decide for themselves. I side with the traditional Jewish halacha when it comes to intermarriage and in most other matters.
>> I find it hard to imagine that you at the time cared about marrying a Jewess vs. a Gentile
ReplyDeleteIt didn't matter enough to influence my decision to marry my wife.
That doesn't mean I "despise my heritage". It means intermarriage, even with its problems, isn't that important.
God's going to preserve Israel. So relax! He's already provided a solution for the exile; intermarriage is just a product of the exile, not the problem itself.
"God's going to preserve Israel. So relax!"
ReplyDeleteI am quite relaxed and I do not worry about it when it come to Israel as a whole (as I already wrote in my very first comment.) However, intermarriage and resulting assimilation is a proven destroyer of individual Jewish people and communities. Even losing one Jew to assimilation is too much in my book.
BTW, among Hebrew Christians/Messianic Jews in Israel there's quite a problem with intermarriage as well (over 50%, in Israel of all places!). Israeli MJ theologian Tzvi Sadan wrote quite a bit about the pervasive attitude of "as long as it is in the L-rd it's OK". The children of such intermarriages, especially those with Gentile mothers (i.e. not Jewish halachicly) have a major problem fitting in with the rest of the Israeli society and their Jewish peers. Not to mention they are raised with little to no Jewish education. A sad testimony indeed if this continues unabated. Some end up seeking conversions from Orthodox establishment.
Gene, your whole premise is held together simply by Gentiles who might not follow Torah and are pagan.
ReplyDeleteBut what would you say to a Jew marrying a Gentile who observes Torah?
* The gentile will not be leading the jew away from Torah.
* And the gentile is worshiping the same God as the Jew.
Is there still a problem with this?
The bottom line is, since there's no clear consistent guideline from whoever in MJ thinks they are in charge and NT doesn't speak on this subject (I assume in deference to Jewish attitudes towards intermarriage and general respect for law and tradition apostles claimed to uphold), each Jew must decide for themselves. I side with the traditional Jewish halacha when it comes to intermarriage and in most other matters.
ReplyDeleteI can live with that (assuming my comment doesn't disappear again...darn Blogger comment bug).
"But what would you say to a Jew marrying a Gentile who observes Torah?"
ReplyDeleteIn Judaism a Jew has no problem marrying a Gentile who observes Torah (the Jewish halachic way) - as long as he/she officially converts before marriage. Noahides and One-Law Christians would not qualify just because they happen to observe some elements of Torah. That's what I would say.
"In Judaism a Jew has no problem marrying a Gentile who observes Torah (the Jewish halachic way) - as long as he/she officially converts before marriage"
ReplyDeleteRight that is exactly what Joseph did with Asnat.... But who are we to confuse Gene with the facts?
Right that is exactly what Joseph did with Asnat....
ReplyDeleteAnd this leads us back to my blog on the topic (where this whole thing started) which drew a very similar conclusion about Joseph and Asenath.
One could consider a follower of the Greek "Jesus" idolatry! Yeshua never instituted "sunday worship, pork, x-mess, lent, and easter" If you believe in that person, YOU ARE AN IDOLATER...
ReplyDelete-Jesse
Great conversation of the men studying and sharing at the gates of the temple... I can almost visualize it. And It is good! We learn from debates done respectably. As a grandmother and a Gentile Christian, I respect the religious beliefs of my children and their spouses, and will try my best to strengthen those when teaching my grandchildren about the Lord (just like Timothy's grandmother did). Thank you, Judah, for who you are. May the Lord bless and keep you and your family healthy and safe from worldly evils.
ReplyDeleteA sister in Christ
"Right that is exactly what Joseph did with Asnat...."
ReplyDeleteRight, and the written Torah was not yet given to Israel (that's why Abraham, for example, could marry his sister, something later forbidden in Torah), and the Jewish nation was yet to appoint its leaders and judges. But I supposed everyone knows that.
Judah, interesting blog indeed.
ReplyDeleteI think the most important thing is that people are seeking HaShem entirely.
I really have come to the huge realization of something both through logic based on my unshakable belief in the Tora, and what I believe to be divine assistance and guidance through my personal/spiritual connection and relationship with the Creator.
Via these things, the realization I came to, can be summed up in: Judaism contains an ancient, ancient masora (tradition) which runs right through the Prophets, back to Dawidh, back to Shmuel, Yahoshua` bin Nun, and to Moshe. However, Judaism as it is today, has deviated from the Tora of the Sages (to varying degrees depending on form of modern-day 'Orthodox' Judaism), the Sages who were first headed by the final three Prophets (Zakharya, Malakhi, and Hhagai).
I was just studying Mishne Tora with a friend, and we came across a section in the text which indicated a certain gazera (legal enactment) that Dawidh and his Beith Din enacted. Another place in 'rabbinic' literature mentions the Prophet Malakhi, how when he was alive and a member of the Sanhedrin, his prophetic awareness made him able to render halakhic judgments. Halakha is legal, it is logical, having to do with details of Tora observance. Spirituality is not to be separated from such, because prophecy and the Tora are intertwined and go together. Moshe was the greatest of all prophets, and the revealer of the Tora in much practical and logical detail.
I don't believe that offshoot religions, largely adhered to by people who are not very aware of authentic Judaism (some religious Jews are not even so aware of authentic Judaism), are religions that anyone should hold on to.
My main problem with Christianity and different Messianic strains, is that many or most place emphasis on worshiping and praying to someone they hold to be God, yet God's son, yet a unified entity with God, or something along these lines. Even 'Kabbalah' today is often heretical and includes forms of `avodha zara (idolatry, foreign worship), because it may include ideas of pantheism, or that the Creator is in part, or in some way corporeal. Such is not true, and such an idea is not found nor reinforced in [authentic] texts and traditions of the Sages.
In continuation...
ReplyDeleteWhat is of concern is whether of not people adhere to what the Creator requires of them. All the world must believe that the Creator is One, and no one may worship or pray to another - that is the main and primary concept which is so important.
I don't believe Christianity, Islam, or any other religion of the nations accurately provides a true path based on the universal commands of Torah that are applicable to all. We are truly living in dark times, and have been, since Judaism and the Jewish people were subject to the unrighteous nations and their unrighteous religions which include Christianity and Islam.
Things are changing with the appearance of Jewish sovereignty and power in the world.
When Jews intermix with the nations who do not share these ideas, heritage, tradition of Tora, etc, it may take a One-God-believing-Jew and make him a Christian or atheist, or just some average secular person on the street. This will annul his place in the next world, his eternal life, because he may not believe in the One Creator, or not believe solely in Him, or live to do His will, or he may just not care about any such ideals whatsoever.
If the non-Jew being intermarried with cares about God and Tora in at least some way, it is a little different story. It would take looking at such things case by case to determine just how good or bad such things are. It can't be generalized. But what can and should be emphasized, and was even emphasized in the Tanakh, is Jews marrying Jews. `Ezra rent his clothes at Jews marrying non-Jews in the land of Israel. The Jews who did such put their gentile wives away and did a serious and stern repentance for their sin.
This obviously poses a huge problem to Tora, righteousness, and unique goal of the Jewish people in this world. I hope you agree with this, and honestly, I don't see how you can't, being someone who sincerely tries to serve the Creator and knows some about His commands.
Right, and the written Torah was not yet given to Israel (that's why Abraham, for example, could marry his sister, something later forbidden in Torah), and the Jewish nation was yet to appoint its leaders and judges. But I supposed everyone knows that.
ReplyDeleteI didn't think it was quite that straightforward, Gene. Christians have a tendency to read the Bible in a linear fashion, but I thought I recalled something that said Judaism believes the Patriarchs were flawless in their Torah observance. One example is the beginning of Genesis 18, when Abraham served a meal to his three visitors. The plain meaning of the text indicates that he served meat and milk together, but the sages interpret this passage to say that they were two separate servings because Abraham wouldn't have violated the Torah restriction.
Of course, I could be wrong.
We are truly living in dark times, and have been, since Judaism and the Jewish people were subject to the unrighteous nations and their unrighteous religions which include Christianity and Islam.
As a non-Jewish believer (i.e. a Christian and therefore unrighteous), that doesn't bode well for me, does it, Jewzilla?
James, you're not just a regular Christian, I don't think. Christianity is a religion, a system based on belief that has a core set of doctrines and beliefs, as do all religions. But some of those core beliefs are flawed and are not in line according to Tora. There are Christians who, because of an emerging sense inside of them, begin to differ from normative Christian doctrine. Christians/Messianics with an affinity to Tora and the Jewish people should follow through and eventually discard every belief and deed which is foreign to the Tora. Messianics seem to me to be those who are further in the process, than a regular church-going Christian.
ReplyDeleteI realize that someone who is Christian/Messianic might say "well my beliefs do align with Tora". But this is only true in that person's personal interpretation of Tora, or their misguided view based on "NT" texts.
ReplyDeleteI believe it not to be intentionally done by most people, but the fact is that it is very arrogant when people think they can re-interpret the Tora or any of the Tanakh in a way foreign to the tradition of interpretation (which is not just a tradition but is logical, true, and based on truly understanding the Hebrew language); that tradition which stems directly from the final 3 Prophets, whose students and 'descendants' were the Sages.
Christianity and Islam deviate from this in very major ways. Even some elements of modern-day 'orthodox' Judaism do the same. Someone cannot be stagnant and not change according to the truth. One's family, religious community, and one's own laziness are all things which inhibit someone from being intellectually honest with themselves and change according to the truth which is found in the Tora, the whole Tanakh, and the rulings of the Kings, Prophets, and Sages of Israel throughout the ages whom we are to adhere to, according to the command in the written Tora.
"I didn't think it was quite that straightforward, Gene. Christians have a tendency to read the Bible in a linear fashion, but I thought I recalled something that said Judaism believes the Patriarchs were flawless in their Torah observance."
ReplyDeleteJames, it IS NOT as straightforward as you may have thought. Some sages have held a view that Asenath was actually the daughter of Joseph's sister Dinah born of rape by Shechem (and adopted by Potipherah), therefore not a convert but an Israelite. Another tradition holds that Asenath fully converted to Judaism before she married Joseph (Joseph, being the man of G-d and prophet that he was, persuaded her about the G-d of Israel - may be even while still a slave in Potipherah house!).
There's a lot we don't know about the relationship between Joseph and Asenath. Certainly, once she saw he was circumcised, the cat would be out of the bag, so to speak. What did they talk about? How did they relate to each other? Did she continue to worship the Egyptian gods or did Joseph "convert" her to Judaism?
ReplyDeleteThe fact remains that a Jewish Joseph was given an alternate identity as an Egyptian lord, married an Egyptian noblewoman, had children with her in Egypt, and lived and died in Egypt...and yet remained continually devoted to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These aren't exact circumstances that could happen to day, but it is an illustration that a Jew could "marry out", live a life in a foreign land disguised as an Egyptian, and still be bound to God.
"These aren't exact circumstances that could happen to day, but it is an illustration that a Jew could "marry out", live a life in a foreign land disguised as an Egyptian, and still be bound to God."
ReplyDeleteYes, G-d miraculously preserves Jewish people even as others try to destroy them. I can testify to that as a Jew born in Ukraine (country that gave birth to "pogroms"). The difference is that Joseph never lost his devotion to G-d of Israel as a Jew even while OTHERS have tried to assimilate him. He did't choose to intermarry (assuming that Asenath was not a convert or a Jewess). He was "disguised" - and that's the key word. The same, sadly, cannot be said of many Jews today who assimilate and intermarry (or their parents did) quite willingly.
I can't speak to the Jews to choose to toss their identity or heritage aside like a pile of old clothes. It has always been my heartfelt desire that my children continue to not just be Jewish halachically but to live as Jews. They've shown various degrees of pursuing this so far, but I can only hope and pray for more as time progresses.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, I can't go around beating myself up (or letting others beat me up) for being a Gentile who married a Jew. I've already outlined the history of my relationship with my wife, so I won't rehash it. I, and others like me, can only move forward as husbands, fathers, and grandfathers doing our admittedly flawed best to serve the will of God.
God is my Judge for good or for ill. My soul in in His hands and if I have sinned, then His will be done with my life and my being.
"God is my Judge for good or for ill. My soul in in His hands and if I have sinned, then His will be done with my life and my being."
ReplyDeleteMay we all share in this sentiment when it comes to our own lives. Thanks friend.
I just wanted to let everyone know that I've posted the second article in this series on my blog just now: But Will the Children be Jewish? Gene's already commented. Who else wants to join in?
ReplyDeleteThank you Judah for posting on this important issue.
ReplyDeleteI think to treat inter-marriage exactly as Orthodox or Coservative Judaism do would not be wise for the Messianic Jewish community.
The question is whether or not the children are raised as Jews (as you brought up). I think the whole thing is a mixed bag and depends on the couple.
I know you would not likely agree, but I feel the biggest threat of assimilation in our movement is not loss of Jews to Judaism but loss of Jewish distinction based in Torah due to Gentile assimilation into Judaism.
In any event, I have no desire to argue that here. I only bring it up to say that we are more likely to keep it "Jewish"-even controversially so!
Our movement is actually a haven for many inter-married couples and children of inter-marriage (I am one of those children). As long as we are doing our part to raise every ethnically "half-Jew" as a Jew, three generations down the line we'll be back to more "full-Jews"!
I wouldn't throw a big fit over it, but our movement does have a role to play in Jewish survival, and I think a particularly positive one. All of us have different ideas about how to do it, and those who are most afraid of inter-arriage are certainly not as encouraged by us as we are!
"I can't speak to the Jews to choose to toss their identity or heritage aside like a pile of old clothes. It has always been my heartfelt desire that my children continue to not just be Jewish halachically but to live as Jews. They've shown various degrees of pursuing this so far, but I can only hope and pray for more as time progresses."
ReplyDeleteB"H, James, beautiful.
BS"D - It may all seem sweet until your kids grow up and realize what a mess you've left them.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous posted this comment, but to the a different post. Adding it here:
ReplyDelete---
so what do you have to say about the fact that the founder of the Jewish faith, Moses, was married to a Cushite (she was black) woman? also, you even admit that it's the later Jewish interpretation that says that Jews aren't allowed to marry non-ethnic Jews. the Scripture doesn't actually say that. it says not to marry PAGANS. a big reason why Israel went into exile was because they were so into themselves, and weren't concerned with fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant, which was to incorporate all nations (Gen 15).
"later Jewish interpretation that says that Jews aren't allowed to marry non-ethnic Jews."
ReplyDeleteIgnorant statement. Jews accept and marry Gentile/not-ethnically Jewish converts to Judaism - ALL THE TIME, historically and today. There's no systemic built-in racism/xenophobia in Judaism, and even if some individuals display it (as does just about every single person on this planet, to a degree) it's not part of Judaism which permits marriage to Gentiles converts for all Jews (except for priests).
"A big reason why Israel went into exile was because they were so into themselves, and weren't concerned with fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant, which was to incorporate all nations"
Another ignorant and also anti-semitic statement. Show me from scripture where "not incorporating all nations" (whatever that means!!!) is ever cited as reason for exile? The reasons for the exile are many, chief among them profaning G-d's name by not keeping the Torah.
I think the unspoken assumption here is that Believing Christians are not part of Israel. Therefore they are pagans and the commandment not to intermarry applies.
ReplyDeleteIf, however, Christians are in fact grafted in to the Commenwealth of Israel, and are therefore fellow heirs with the Jews, then there is no problem with intermarriage because it isn't really intermarriage -- it is one Israelite marrying another.
"there is no problem with intermarriage because it isn't really intermarriage -- it is one Israelite marrying another."
ReplyDeleteShow me in the Bible where Gentiles who believe in Jesus are ever referred to as "Israelites" or spoken of as "Israel"? Replacement theology teaches that Christians are now "Israel", that the church is now "New Israel." It's almost classic!
Oh, just saw your blog, David. No wonder you believe that Gentiles are "Israelites" - after all, you're a "Two-House-r", and that belief is built-in in the Batya faith.
ReplyDelete@Gene - it is hardly "replacement theology" - nobody is being replaced - it is "inclusion theology." The Kingdom of Judah (later called the Jews) was never all of Israel. They have had 2500 years to spin it that way though so almost everyone believes it.
ReplyDeleteHere are a couple of Bible verses:
Ephesians 3:6 (New American Standard Bible)
"to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,"
Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
BTW, are you aware that you are forbidden to believe rumors by the Talmud? If you wish to critisize the so-called "Two-House Movement" you should study both sides. I recommend "http://www.tnnonline.net/two-housenews/judah/ee-ce/index.html" for some light reading.
God Bless.
"The Kingdom of Judah (later called the Jews) was never all of Israel. They have had 2500 years to spin it that way though so almost everyone believes it."
ReplyDeleteDavid, your words are a showcase of Two-House historical ignorance as well as ill attitude toward the Jewish people as some supposed supplanters bent on denying the "Israelite" identity to the imaginary "Lost Tribes" of Batya Wooten.
@Gene - I have met many people who use the terms "Jew" and "Israelite" interchangably.
ReplyDeleteIf I offended, please forgive me.
May I assume that you and I agree that it would be OK for a Jew to marry a non-jewish Israelite if there was some way to determine the geneology of the latter?
"...non-jewish Israelite..."
ReplyDeleteDavid, with all due respect, that's an oxymoronic statement found only in the Two-House faith (well, the Mormon faith and British Israelism teaches that as well).
"May I assume that you and I agree that it would be OK for a Jew to marry a non-jewish Israelite if there was some way to determine the geneology of the latter?"
It's OK for a Jew (except for cohanim/priests) to marry a Gentile (i.e. a non-Jewish, non-Israelite person), provided she/he converted to Judaism under the supervision of recognized Jewish authorities. That's the Jewish Law. Jewish authorities sometimes have to look closely at genealogies of those claiming Jewish halachic ancestry (through one's Jewish mother, like Yeshua himself), but they require hard documented proof of descent. If that proof is not available or if there is even a slightest doubt, a person in question is always required to undergo some type of conversion (there are different levels for different situations).
"It's OK for a Jew (except for cohanim/priests) to marry a Gentile (i.e. a non-Jewish, non-Israelite person), provided she/he converted to Judaism under the supervision of recognized Jewish authorities."
ReplyDeleteCould you give me a reference of where this is found in the Bible? I haven't found it.
Also, you didn't answer my question about a Jew (descendent of Judah) marrying a non-Jewish Israelite (descendent of one of the other 11 tribes.) It is irrelevent what Mormons believe, I'm more interested in what YOU believe.