- Real Observance – Michael Schiffman laments that controversial Messianic posts generate the most traffic, but ethical matters are often laid aside.
Keeping Shabbat and Kashrut are great, and in fact, very important, but what good are they if I don’t honor my parents? How can I treat people like crap and claim to love God?
- How Eli Got His Name, Part 1 and part 2 – You’ll be amused with this one. UMJC leader Russ Resnik interviews…himself! That is, the younger, hippie version of himself from 30 years ago. You’ll like this one!
- Judaism: A Non-Non-Christian Religion – Rabbi Dauermann on how we, as followers of Yeshua, ought to approach Judaism.
- A Father's Day Tribute – Yahnatan has a great post up for Father’s day: the role and importance of fathers in our movement:
Growing up in a Messianic Jewish synagogue and attending a Messianic Jewish day school gave me a love of Torah--which my dad nurtured through regular conversations about life, God, and Torah (a practice we continue to this day). I remember many times hearing my dad exhort me to be a mensch.
- Devastating Consequences of Promiscuity: Real & Imagined – Nate Long highlights old-but-credible scientific research that suggests “cultures that practiced strict monogamy in marital bonds exhibited what he called creative social energy, and reached the zenith of production. Cultures that had no restraint on sexuality, without exception, deteriorated into mediocrity and chaos.”
- Does it matter to God if Christians keep the dietary laws? – Oh boy. Speaking of controversial topics, get a load of some of the comments on this one: “The entire 613 laws comprising the Law of Moses was rendered obsolete upon the death of Messiah” or “Paul’s argument to both Jews and Gentiles in Galatia was to not return to the elementary things that had bound them. For the Jews it was the Law, for the Gentiles it was pagan religions”.
- Gates of Hades – First Fruits of Zion suggests that Messiah’s phrase, “Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not overcome it” may not have been referring to the place of eternal fire and torment, but rather, Banyas, a pagan cult center in northern Israel.
- The Bad News Gospel – Rabbi Dauermann, blogging up a storm this past week, has another post on how Yeshua ought to be good news for Israel, when Christianity’s “good news” has been “bad news” for the Jews.
Weekly Bracha 27
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"Does it matter to God if Christians keep the dietary laws?"
ReplyDeleteI am going to go stir the pot a little!
James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he has become guilty of all."
ReplyDeleteDoes it matter to YHWH if anyone keeps Torah?
If something was important to YHWH then, is it still important today? Or has He changed His mind again?
Efrayim
""Does it matter to God if Christians keep the dietary laws?"
ReplyDeleteOf course! Christians should abstain from eating blood, from eating animals that have been strangled or sacrificed to idols.
Other then that, no G-d doesn't want Christians (Gentiles) to keep Jewish dietary laws or other Jewish identity markers. Nonetheless, I think it's good if Gentiles buy Kosher products for their quality and as a way to bless Jewish businesses.
"Other then that, no G-d doesn't want Christians (Gentiles) to keep Jewish dietary laws or other Jewish identity markers. Nonetheless, I think it's good if Gentiles buy Kosher products for their quality and as a way to bless Jewish businesses."
ReplyDeleteWhere does it say gentiles are not to keep "Jewish" dietary laws? Are they not the commandments of God?
The problem with saying Gentiles only need to keep these laws, creates a hypocritical position, it is too simplistic...
For example, should gentiles honor their father and mother? Or are they free not to?
Acts 15 is all that is required of gentiles. Now, go about your raping and pillaging in the name of Christ -- there's no prohibition against it. Have fun!
ReplyDelete"Acts 15 is all that is required of gentiles. Now, go about your raping and pillaging in the name of Christ -- there's no prohibition against it. Have fun!"
ReplyDeleteJudah, no need for dramatics - you know exactly what I meant and what the Word of G-d says.
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who DO NOT HAVE the Torah, do by nature things required by the Torah, they are a Torah for themselves, even though THEY DO NOT HAVE THE TORAH, since they show that the requirements of the Torah are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." (Romans 2:14-15)
The above tells me that apart from the Written Torah that G-d gave to Israel as inheritance to possess and obey, there's also a natural "Torah" that G-d placed into the heart of every person on the planet who ever lived. As such, any Gentile with a conscience will know that "raping and pillaging" is wrong, without ever reading a single word from the Torah of Moses.
"Where does it say gentiles are not to keep "Jewish" dietary laws? Are they not the commandments of God? "
ReplyDeleteWell, let's see:
"You shall not eat anything that has died naturally. You MAY GIVE IT TO THE SOJOURNER who is within your towns, that he may eat it, or YOU MAY SELL IT TO A FOREIGNER. For YOU are a people holy [set apart] to the L-RD your G-d." (Deuteronomy 14:21)
According to "One-Law" proponents G-d would never tell the Jews to encourage Gentiles to break the same Torah he gave to Israel, and that G-d Laws are for EVERYBODY and have always been so? However, that flies in the face of both scripture and traditional Jewish interpretation of it. As can be plainly seen, the reason verse like Deuteronomy 14:21 even exist is because when it comes to Gentiles, not observing Jewish dietary laws is not a sin for them nor is it a requirement.
So, eat up my Gentile brothers and sisters, enjoy everything with thanksgiving, and do not let anyone judge when it comes to food or drink (Colossians 2:16)!
That "natural" Torah aligns with the Torah's requirements. If anything, that enforces my view on things.
ReplyDeleteDeuteronomy 14 does not deal with gentiles grafted into the commonwealth of Israel through Messiah.
D'varim says that the animal may be eaten by a stranger who is staying with you, or sold to a foreigner.
ReplyDeleteThere isn't a reference in the text to a sojourner, as that would be someone who had been circumcised and partook of the Pesach lamb, and was keeping the commandments of YHWH. Someone who would no longer be considered a stranger or a foreigner, but rather as an Israelite that is no different than a native born. Same book, different verse.
We are no longer strangers and foreigners are we?
I certainly hope not, unless Sha'ul was mistaken about what it means to have a relationship with Messiah.
And one more thing; if Torah is written on the hearts of the believers, why would they do something other than what Torah says? Or did they have a different Torah written on their hearts, kind of an abbreviated version that would keep them from being mixed up with and confused into thinking they were Jews?
Does that make sense to anyone beside Gene?
Efrayim
"Does that make sense to anyone beside Gene?"
ReplyDeleteHow about the whole of MJ movement (the Jewish one), and the generations of Jewish sages, and FFOZ (the former originators and chief promoters of One-Law doctrine), and the apostles (Acts 15 and elsewhere) - basically it makes sense to MOST people but a few holdouts, that Gentiles are not obligated, expected or urged to live as Jews according to Mosaic Torah.
Well, sure, lots of people can be wrong. I didn't mean to single you out Gene, but you are the only one here saying that scripture says something other than what is written.
ReplyDeleteIf those other folks you mentioned would show up and defend their position, I'm sure we can come to the logical conclusion. Which is this: anyone who is outside of the nation of Israel, in other words they do not know Messiah, then of course it doesn't matter if they keep Torah or not.
So the question becomes - "Who is Israel?"
Efrayim
"Deuteronomy 14 does not deal with gentiles grafted into the commonwealth of Israel through Messiah."
ReplyDeleteExactly, it ignores Leviticus 17:15, and not only, but many more verses.
"So the question becomes - "Who is Israel?"
ReplyDeleteWhy is that a question? The Jewish people, and only the Jewish people, of course - always has been, and always will be - for all eternity.
Now, there's of course a so called "Commonwealth of Israel" - which is a union of the nations of the righteous, nations who have joined Israel as the head of all nations.
"Leviticus 17:15"
ReplyDeleteThat's why out sages interpret this verse to mean quite a different type of alien - a convert to Judaism (same person who got himself circumcised to observe Pesach, for example).
Last time I checked NT, Gentiles were not only NOT required to convert to Judaism, they were strongly discouraged from and warned against taking on the "whole Torah" (through circumcision). One-Law Christians today need to realize that G-d has accepted and granted them citizenship in the Commonwealth of Israel WITHOUT obligation to Mosaic Torah. This is miraculous in itself, and it was even more incredulous to the Jews of the first century who witnessed it. Let's not pervert G-d's plan for the nations.
"That's why our sages interpret this verse to mean quite a different type of alien - a convert to Judaism (same person who got himself circumcised to observe Pesach, for example)."
ReplyDeleteOf course this is where the disagreement comes in, it is not a question of whether a gentile who converts has to keep Torah, we both agree, the question or argument is over how one converts to the Faith of Israel... is it by a circumcision ritual or is it by Faith?
"Last time I checked NT, Gentiles were not only NOT required to convert to Judaism, they were strongly discouraged from and warned against taking on the "whole Torah" (through circumcision)."
Obviously this is your interpretation, something that not everyone agrees with... If you are referring to Acts 15, I would consider that they were not discouraged to keeping Torah, but being saved by a ritual instead of Faith.
"One-Law Christians today need to realize that G-d has accepted and granted them citizenship in the Commonwealth of Israel"
Correct.
"WITHOUT obligation to Mosaic Torah."
This is nowhere in the scriptures, but you are free to believe whatever you like!
Allow me to add something. In Acts 15:20, the gentiles are given a few instructions they must comply with immediately to get them started. Then, in the next verse, it says that they, the gentiles, will hear the words of Moses every sabbath.
ReplyDeleteSo, from this, I conclude that, it was meant that they would begin a process of understanding the law,as they continue to attend sabbath services, and begin to implement it in their lives.
Wasn't this meant to bring them into observance slowly, so they understand why they do these things?
Thoughts anyone?
"Allow me to add something. In Acts 15:20, the gentiles are given a few instructions they must comply with immediately to get them started. Then, in the next verse, it says that they, the gentiles, will hear the words of Moses every sabbath.
ReplyDeleteSo, from this, I conclude that, it was meant that they would begin a process of understanding the law,as they continue to attend sabbath services, and begin to implement it in their lives.
Wasn't this meant to bring them into observance slowly, so they understand why they do these things?
Thoughts anyone?"
Your interpretation is definitely reasonable, but debatable...
The point is that people who make the claim that gentiles are to not follow the Torah, all developed their own list of what gentiles are to do and not do... thus the point of why it is hypocritical to state such a thing.
Something I read somewhere regarding the now famous Acts chapter 15:
ReplyDelete"It took many years of contemplation on Kefa’s part to come to the place where he could say no to the Jews who were unyielding in their position that the Gentiles must be circumcised to be saved. He knew that it was not right in the sight of YHWH to place this burden on the new disciples. The results of this meeting to clear up the matter became a permanent point of contention and disagreement among the believing Jews. Why? Because if the Gentiles were receiving eternal life through Messiah by faith without the Torah of Moshe being applied to their lives, it meant the same for them. They were also receiving eternal life through trusting in Yeshua. Not because of their observance of Torah. This was deeply troubling because, heaven forbid! it had become obvious that there was no difference in the eyes of YHWH between them and everyone else when it came to obtaining the promises made to Israel.
The Gentiles would walk in the fulfillment of Torah by the power of the Ruach HaKodesh and so would the Jews. This is the new man."
The "new man" is made after the image of Messiah Yeshua and becomes a son of YHWH through the adoption process provided in Yehsua. This same adoption process is for Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no difference, no special treatment or requirements for either one.
Which should make it obvious to everyone that, if the entrance requirements are the same for all, then the walk after requirements are the same for all.
And in the end, if the judgement applied to all is the same, then, again, the walk requirements must be the same for there to be justice.
To argue to the contrary is to accuse YHWH of being a respecter of persons.
Is that a position that someone would want to take?
Efrayim
"Wasn't this meant to bring them into observance slowly, so they understand why they do these things?"
ReplyDeleteI think that if one takes in the WHOLE context of those verse, the following interpretation makes a whole lot MORE sense (also note that the council never mentions anything about synagogues in the actual letter that they sent to the Gentile believers):
Here's how I (and most other MJs I know, including MJ scholars) interpret that verse:
Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest time and that has not resulted in Gentiles coming to G-d en mass, but ONLY NOW through Yeshua has the Gentiles everywhere been drawn to the G-d of Israel. So, do not make it hard for them to come to G-d by putting them under the yoke of living a Jewish life that is required of Jews (that neither us or other fathers were able to bear as history of Israel testifies).
I think the above makes a heck of a lot more sense that claiming that the apostles actually meant the opposite of what the plain meaning of the text says: Gentiles are not to get circumcised or start observe Jewish Torah and traditions. One-Law folks reverse that to say they actually encouraged Gentiles to all that, but take it slowly (nowhere does it say that).
"The "new man" is made after the image of Messiah Yeshua and becomes a son of YHWH through the adoption process provided in Yehsua. This same adoption process is for Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no difference, no special treatment or requirements for either one."
ReplyDeleteThe one "New Man" is not some generic being, indistinguishable from another generic being. G-d doesn't work that way, Efrayim. He always gave people different responsibilities and duties, and he will require each one to give an account.
You know the NT saying: "to whom much is given, much will be required?" That saying is bogus according to your idea that there "is no difference, no special treatment or requirements."
As far a special treatment for the Jewish people goes, yes - there will indeed be one (according to G-d's special promises to our fathers).
"but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: FIRST for the Jew, then for the Gentile." (Romans 2:10)
Not only that, Jews will be first to get punished as well, "There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;" (Romans 2:9)
So you see, G-d still makes a difference, because it's his choice, not ours. There's no need to envy. Is it not enough that G-d has given you an opportunity to eternal life and blessings by way of Israel's temporary fall?
Ephayim, please note how Paul always divides his audience into Jews and Gentiles. Nothing about "Israelites" and "Gentiles". This is one good indicator that Paul always equated Jews and ONLY Jews with Israelites, and never, ever he considered the Gentiles he ministered to as some supposed "lost Tribes" of Israel.
ReplyDeleteGene,
ReplyDeleteTrying to put the entire conversation into the context of "pre-salvation" dynamics quite misses the point.
Yes, prior to receiving Yehsua as Messiah there is a distinction between the people of Israel and the rest of the world. What we were discussing was the condition of the believer after the initial salvation experience.
And, of course, Sha'ul did not call the Gentiles who were coming to Messiah "Israelites" in the sense that they would be considered by the Jews as returning members of the lost tribes.
Once again, the period of time YHWH had determined for punishment for the House of Israel to be lost among the nations had not yet expired. Receive mercy through Messiah resulting in salvation, yes. Knowing who they were as a people, not yet.
Sha'ul did explain quite clearly that those who come to trust in Messiah are joined to the new covenant YHWH made with both Houses of Israel. A covenant is made with the living, not the dead. The terms of the covenant apply equally to all who are joined to it, Jew first or Gentile second.
Let's keep this in the proper context of the walk that is required of all believers.
Or is YHWH a respecter of persons?
The entrance requirements are the same and the judgement at the end is the same.
Why try to make the middle different?
Efrayim