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Judaism: Unlike all non-Christian religions?

Did you see Stuart Dauermann’s Judaism – A Non-Non-Christian Religion? If you want your theological coals stoked, go read.

If you’re lazy like me, let me summarize his premise for you, fine blog reader: you know how we view Judaism as just-another-deceived-religion invented by men? Turns out we’re wrong, says the good rabbi; our thinking there is just remnants of old replacement theology. Judaism is not just another deceived religion, it’s unlike the pagan religions of the world, he says.

Many Christians, many of us, and many of our constituents, act and think as if the seed of Jacob is a nation like any other, and Judaism a religion like any other religion, except for Christianity. This attitude is a legacy from supersessionism, infused like dye throughout the warp and woof of much of our theologizing. According to such assumptions, Jews no longer enjoy the status they once did now that Christ has come “and his own received him not.” (John 1:12)

While most Messianics are not so openly hostile towards Judaism as our Christian brothers, most of us still regard Judaism as a fruitless religion, “dead, false, devoid of the Spirit” and those who practice Judaism, “wasting their time on a religion that can neither save them, commend them to God, nor mediate to them any measure of true knowledge and experience with Him.”

Is that how you look at Judaism? Or maybe you agree with some of those views?

Well, I sure do! The way I see it,

  1. Judaism cannot save a person.
  2. Practicing Judaism won’t change a person’s status with God.
  3. Judaism has placed a heavy burden of increasingly-strict traditions upon the people, and in some cases have negated God’s commandments in doing so.

(Of course, I must concede the same is true of Christianity, and the Messianic movement for that matter, but that’s another story.)

Rabbi Dauermann says there is something very wrong with this approach that treats Judaism like just-another-false-religion:

But something is very wrong here. Judaism is not a religion just like all the others, any more than Israel is simply a people like all the others. Just as the Jews remain the chosen people, Judaism remains the context of this people’s trans-generational communal devotion to the God and Father of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and their covenantal bond with him.  Can this be said of any other people and their religion? Of course not! No, the Jewish people are in a different category from any other people, and their religion is not simply just another non-Christian religion.

I sympathize with this sentiment, and I think he’s basically right. Judaism is not just another non-Christian religion, there is something unique here – the people, the owners of the Scripture, the people God chose for himself irrevocably.

That counts for something.

The thing I don’t get is, what implication does this have? Judaism still rejects Yeshua, and he is the way, truth, and life, and no one comes to God except through Him. I’m left scratching my head – Judaism may be unique, but if it’s missing Messiah, what does it matter? Isn’t that the most important issue?


  1. Judaism reject Yeshua, by and large, because the Christian Jesus has little to no resemblance to the Jewish Messiah. Add on the fact that, from a traditional Jewish point of view, the Trinity smacks of polytheism, and you make Jewish acceptance of the Christian Jesus all but impossible.

    However, many devout Jewish sincerely and authentically love God and await the coming of the Messiah. From a Messianic viewpoint, the awaited Messiah, for traditional Jews and for Messianics, is the same guy. He will come (or come again, from our viewpoint) as the Jewish Messiah, looking and acting in accordance with his Jewish nature and character and in accordance with the Torah (this will probably confuse some traditional Christians who really believe when he died on the cross, his Jewishness died with him and he arose a Goy).

    I don't think you can dismiss thousands of years of Jewish devotion to God and say that Yeshua changed the "rules" for Jews when he came to make it possible for Gentiles to join as covenant members. I don't know exactly how it works and I don't want to open the "two paths to salvation" can of worms, but I'm not sure where else to go with it.

  2. Official Disclaimer - I will probably get HAMMERED for this, but here goes!!

    I think (not believe, but think) that the only group of people who have a shot at salvation without our Messiah is the Jews. They are the chosen people, have turned their back on God, but he has time and time again saved them.

    They are a stiff necked people, perhaps they will never believe that a man has lived and died for their sins.

    Therefore, in my bizarre logic, I see it that the Jewish people are the only ones who can get by not acknowledging our messiah. I just cannot see God turning his back on them.

    There it is.. Fire away!!!!


  3. Mike,

    Your thinking would be fine if it didn't run contrary to scripture. Either Yeshua meant what He said about life and death or He was just kiddin' around, or worse, an outright liar.

    Please point me to the scripture that confirms your hypothesis and I will listen.


  4. Efrayim, I can't do that to the satisfaction of most, hence my warning. I probably don't know the scriptures as well as most who comment on these blogs, which is why I said I would get hammered.

    However.. I do know a bit, and without quoting, the Jewish people have been spared many times after behaving badly. I guess I draw that conclusion from seeing Gods grace upon the people after their disobedience in the books of Kings and others.

    That being said, I should go back and re-read the teachings of Yeshua to get more perspective.

    I am not opposed to correction, and I wish at this moment I could reference something which would validate my argument, but I will do some homework. I know I can get a good argument together, but I am ill prepared at the moment.

    In short.. you got me. I will be back tho!!!


  5. Mike,

    Try this for starters:

    Amos 9:7&8 "Are you not like the children of the Kushim to me, children of Yisra'el?" says YHWH. "Haven't I brought up Yisra'el out of the land of Mitzrayim, and the Pelishtim from Kaftor, and the Aram from Kir? Behold, the eyes of YHWH Elohim are on the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the surface of the eretz; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Ya`akov," says YHWH."

    There has always been and always will be until the end of this age a remnant that He bring to His set-apart mountain.

    Yochanan 6:37-40 "All those who the Father gives me will come to me. Him who comes to me I will in no way throw out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    He will not lose one single seed that belongs to Him from the whole House of Israel. And keep in mind that the fullness of the nations, Efrayim, is part of the House of Israel. And thus shall all Israel be saved.

    I look forward to your findings.



  6. Israel can simultaneously be God's people but still be lost. It's always been that way, always seems to be rebellious Israel + a righteous remnant.

    I'm with Efrayim on this one -- the language of the apostles and their actions are a guarantee that Jews need Messiah. Some disciples were killed for preaching Yeshua in the synagogues.

    I don't think Mr. Dauermann was suggesting Jews don't need Messiah, but rather that Judaism is distinct from the pagan religions of the nations, a non-non-Christian religion.

  7. I should explain my comments another way. I'm with you that without the Messiah, Judaism seems fruitless.

    However, if the skies were to bust open right now, where would those who practice Judaism stand? I would hope that because Judaism is different from all other pagan religions, that it would count for something.

    I suppose if that were true, one could convert to Judaism, knowing about the Messiah, and at the same time rejecting him. Thus I have just blown up my own argument!!

    See James "two paths to salvation" (I don't want to open it either), and I think many people feel that way, its just hard to argue, so its not brought up much.

  8. I think one of the problems with this debate is the whole issue of replacement theology. The Israelites were without question the chosen people. But are the Jews the Israelites? I would argue they are not. If the Jews of Yeshua's day were no longer the Israelites, then they were (are) as guilty of replacement theology as the Christian church is today.

    Maybe the reason the messianic movement is in such disarray is that it keeps trying to figure out where on the Jewish-to-Christian scale it should be, when in reality it should be on a totally different plane.

  9. Judah,

    I really really disagree with the way you see this, in general. For your 3 points on Judaism, I want to respond with my own 3 points.

    1. Belief that Jesus, Yeshua, or any other version of Yehoshua` existed and was the/a Messiah does not "save" anyone. By the teaching of that very same Yehoshua` nothing other than abiding by the commands of Torah brings a person eternal life. How can you make a claim "Judaism" doesn't "save" anyone in light of that teaching?

    2. Practicing Torah Judaism, for an Israelite, is doing what one is obligated to. It would "change" an Israelite's status to servant of HaShem, following in the path of truth.

    3. The "heavy burden" criticism is always made by people who've never observed the so-called "heavy burden" that they claim it is. I used to believe the same until I started doing "it" (Torah-Judaism). "Its not too hard" whatsoever, its a pleasure to "bless God in everything", its "not too hard" whatsoever.

    In my last blog post, I begin explaining how one cannot truly keep the Written Torah without the instruction, background, insight, and truth of the Oral Torah, and I give solid examples. In the next few blog posts I will write, I will continue on the subject with more and more topics.

  10. Above, at the very end, I mean "...with more and more examples"

  11. "Some disciples were killed for preaching Yeshua in the synagogues."

    Actually the Sadducees killed the followers of Yehoshua` (and Yehoshua` himself) for preaching such doctrines tehhiath hamethim (resurrection of the dead) and other such things which were beliefs of those Jews who correctly held to the Oral Torah, unlike the Sadducees. Go ahead, take a look and see for yourself that its the case in probably almost every instance.

    In fact, Ya`aqov, the brother of Yehoshua` was killed by Sadducees on Har HaBayith for preaching the same Oral Torah doctrines.

    Paul who was brought on trial by the political Sanhedrin, actually for an Oral Torah belief, and appeals to the Pharisaic half of the Sanhedrin by stating "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee". Why? Because the Pharisees believed in what he was preaching, while the Sadducees did not.

  12. I would assert that the many of the jewish people do and have believed in messiah- fervently in fact. They have believed in him since the times of the prophets and perhaps before. Simply because their eyes are closed to the actual identity of their messiah doesn't mean they will never have salvation through him. If that were the case, David, Moses, the prophets, and all righteous men in torah would not have eternal life- Because they didn't didn't call on the Messiah by his name- yeshua. In reality, the looked toward the coming of messiah and placed their faith in him. Today many of the jewish people still look toward the coming of messiah to save them.

  13. >> Belief that Jesus, Yeshua, or any other version of Yehoshua` existed and was the/a Messiah does not "save" anyone.

    The apostles died speaking otherwise. I'm not ready to throw out their testimony in order to better align with Judaism's current stance.

    Aaron, what do you think about Rabbi Dauermann's post?

  14. Ouch! I agree with Dauermann (or at least your summary of Dauermann - sorry, I couldn't bring myself to read him).

    Seriously, "Judaism" (not the monolith that Christianity assumes) is essentially the religion of the Bible. Christianity certainly isn't. With the exception of their basic view of Messiah, and certainly the Person of Messiah, they are artfully dodge the real religion of Scripture.

    When the sky parts, Judaism will be ready to embrace Yeshua as Messiah. I am not so sure that the majority of Christians will recognize the JEWISH Messiah.

  15. Judah,

    I liked reading the way you wrestle through Dr. Dauermann's article here: on this hand, disagreeing...on the other hand, agreeing.

    You wrote: "Of course, I must concede the same is true of Christianity, and the Messianic movement for that matter, but that’s another story."

    I'm not sure how it's another story, if many of the most substantial critiques we apply to Judaism apply equally to Christianity and the Messianic movement.

    "The thing I don’t get is, what implication does this have?"

    One possible implication is that, instead of seeing Judaism as "another deceived religion," we might begin to see Judaism as evidence of God's continuing work within and through the Jewish people, despite their "hardening" or "stumbling" (to use Paul's words) with regards to Messiah.

  16. Some further thoughts:

    "1. Judaism cannot save a person."

    I support clear statements with regard to beliefs about salvation, and I believe in the importance of this doctrine. But I'm not a fan of making "will it save you?" the only litmus test of something's value or legitimacy. Just as the Torah is God-given but can't, in and of itself, save a person from God's judgment, mightn't Judaism exist by God's design for a specific purpose?

    "2. Practicing Judaism won’t change a person’s status with God."

    Again, is this the purpose of practicing Judaism? Eating kosher won't change a person's status with God either...

    "3. Judaism has placed a heavy burden of increasingly-strict traditions upon the people, and in some cases have negated God’s commandments in doing so."

    The only problem I have with this statement is what it doesn't say: it doesn't acknowledge the immense good that has come from Judaism's traditions and history, and instead only focuses on the negative. I see great value in things like the kindling of Shabbat and holiday candles, the many prayers which have come down to us, even the entire halakhic/communal approach to Torah (vs an "every person just do what they think is best" approach).

    We can never escape the glorious truth that Judaism has been God's vehicle for preserving not only key truths about himself, but of keeping his promise to preserve Israel as a people apart. We may question the ways this happened, or criticize what we see as mistakes along the way, but if we fail to acknowledge the good at a foundational level, then it shows our perspective to be biased..

    I'm not trying to be overly contentious here--I really like the fact that you're interacting with Dauermann, and thought I should do my best to try to cobble together some thoughtful comments. :-)

  17. I am thinking in terms of corporate vs. individual salvation. Israel is the only nation on earth that is guaranteed salvation despite her beliefs. That is a given and undisputable. Individuals on the other hand can only go through Yeshua.

  18. I have to say, I agree with Dauermann (at least your summary of him). I also agree with James & Mike, and to a degree Mr. Benzvi (will I ever live this one down?)...

    I once heard a very wise person say that Judaism's rejection of the Christian Jesus is an embrace of Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah. Because in their rejection of the version of Jesus which abrogates the Torah, they are upholding the Torah in a way in which Yeshua, the true Messiah affirmed and teaches us to affirm.

  19. ps - I think if we really had our definitions of Salvation, Faith and Gospel correct, these would be pointless arguments.

  20. So this guy with the message of the Good News in his heart walks up to two guys on the street and says, "are either one of you Jewish?"

    One guy says, "yeah, I'm Jewish."

    So the Good News guy says, "OK, you first."

    Go too far beyond that and you will have nothing but confusion and trouble. See?

    If we do not know what salvation is and how it is accomplished in this life than we are not able ministers of the Good News and are not useful for the Kingdom of YHWH.


  21. Judah,

    You're basing your view on what the apostles said/did outside of the proper context.
    The apostles died proclaiming tehhiath hamethim (resurrection of the dead), meviath hamashiahh (bringing of the messiah), hhayei ha`olam haba (life in the next world), and other teachings. All of such things are subjects of the Oral Torah. At least the first and last ones that I just mentioned were NOT believed by the Sadducees, the non-Oral-Torah-believers. And because the Sadducees opposed such teachings, they killed Oral-Torah-believing Jews such as the followers of Rabi Yehoshua`.

  22. "I am thinking in terms of corporate vs. individual salvation. Israel is the only nation on earth that is guaranteed salvation despite her beliefs. That is a given and undisputable."

    Fantastic point, Dan.

  23. I'll clarify that I don't oppose the message of the talmidhei Yehoshua`, but that I don't think what they said in any way contradicts a "faith" in Yehoshua`. After all, Yehoshua` taught correctly to apply the Toroth (Written and Oral) in proper manner, never contradicting Moshe, the Neviim (prophets), nor the Sanhedrin--who all possessed the same authority.

    Faith in this way; faith in one who taught such, means doing those teachings, or at least honestly striving towards them. In Judaism, a Hhakham is remembered by his teachings, that is which carries his name and memory. This is so because this is what is important and truly worth anything.

    I think there's plenty of sincere Christians, tons of sincere Messianics. It is good to me if they have personal relationships with the Creator, since this is most important, and that has the power to take them out of any misunderstand or wrong belief or deed, and bring them to what the Creator specifically wants them to do.
    Hopefully, people will drop more of their inherited doctrines and theologies as they honesty find out that they're wrong, in light of honest study of the Truth.
    I think a lot of people are in a transitional state, and that is why I don't like nor want to judge. I do, however, want to speak the truth of the whole Torah, and hopefully some will listen.

  24. Dan,

    Please correct me if I am wrong but, is a nation not made up of individuals?

    How can YHWh say that He will save Israel as a nation regardless of the individuals of which it is comprised, and then at the same time say that He will save only those individuals that put their trust in His Son, regardless of which nation they are from?

    Without a good understanding of the two House of Israel, and YHWH's plan for them, there seems to be confusion as a result.

    If a Jew rejects the Christian Messiah because he thinks that it is only a Christian construct, he is still rejecting the Messiah of YHWH. With or without Hebrew roots attached, Messiah is still Messiah.


  25. Anonymous,

    Rom. 11:26: "and thus all Israel will be saved..."
    It does not say: "All the individuals of israel will be saved." Get my drift?

    BTW, are you Jewish?

  26. Efrayim (and everyone else),

    Yehoshua` says that what one must do to have eternal life is keep the misswoth. Its clear, its true, and you either accept that or you don't. When people have no idea what "emuna" means and say it means the concept "faith" exactly, i.e. that one "believes J-man is ____", they are completely misunderstanding the concept of emuna.

    THE POINT: "Believing" in Yehoshua`, or better said, having emuna in him is in no way opposed or anything above and beyond adhering to the whole Torah (as is applicable to Israelites). These two are not only just unopposed to each other, but are actually one in the same thing.
    This is where Messianic theology is severely handicapped by Christian theology, and people can't seem to get out of the kooky mindset about a mere belief alone being a source of eternal life. PLUS ITS AGAINST WHAT YEHOSHUA` SAID. Ayayay, does anyone get it yet? Its REALLY simple.

  27. And I don't want to hear any "faith with action, Jews have action, Christians have faith, WE have both and are therefore possibly the only saved people. Maybe some Christians, but Jews aren't". That's asinine, ridiculous, sick, and just plain stupid on so many levels. Get real, none of this theology exists anywhere among authentic Torah. This is Christian fluff aimed at wiping the Jews out of the picture, and you're blindly buying into it.

    Yehoshua` said TORAH is life and that salvation is of/from the Jews. I just don't believe that people who name and claim belief in Yehoshua` believe any of that. I really don't.

  28. Jewzilla - "Christian fluff aimed at wiping the jews out"...

    Seriously, I am on a journey. I have contact with many different schools of thought in MJ, from one "extreme" to another. If you read many of like minded blogs, you see that few agree on any one thing.

    BUT - I cannot see how you draw some anti-Jew sentiment from any of them. I can understand being angry at one persons POV, or not agreeing in whole with the MJ movement.. which I am not really a part of I guess (Gray Area).. But to slam everyone the way you do to be anti-Jew seems really extreme.

    Perhaps you like to come off that way, but you wont win anyone over by insulting what they consider - in their hearts- to be truthful.

    Ive read your blog info.. i understand you like to argue. Its not that we are thin skinned, but the way you comment, you leave little room for dissent. Perhaps I am wrong. Any thoughts?


  29. Mike,

    What could be more anti-Semitic than saying the vast majority of Jews are going to hell? Not only is that anti-Semitic, that's just outright contrary to the Torah, and to what Yehoshua` taught. Its such a plain truth, but not even one seems to consider it, because of being brainwashed by Christian theology which the majority of Messianics believe in.

    BTW, part II in my blogs on Oral Torah. Thanks for your recent comment.

  30. Dan,

    You are misreading the scripture regarding "all Israel" being saved. It is not a national salvation that disregards the clear message of Messiah.

    There is no indication in scripture that at some point He would say, "all Jews are now saved without having to have trust in Me or be obedient to my Word."

    To believe otherwise goes against the revealed will of YHWH as demonstrated in His Son.

    And the "fullness of the nations" that must come to Messiah first, prior to "all Israel" being saved, are those of the House of Judah and the House of Israel with whom the covenant was made.

    Whether I am "Jewish" or not has nothing to do with this dialog.


  31. anonymos,

    And who are the "fulness of the nations?"

  32. Dan,

    The answer to your question is quite involved, starting in Genesis and going all the way to Revelation, and can't be adequately covered in this small space.

    But if you were to follow Efrayim from his childhood in Egypt through all the prophetic references about him, and on to the vast multitude standing before the throne of YHWH at the end, you will begin to see the picture of how YHWH fills His House with the "fullness of the nations" by the stick of Yosef that is in the hand of Efrayim.

    It is a scriptural journey worth taking.


  33. But didn't you say that Ephraim don't know yet who they are?

    Having the cake and eat it too? Or maybe just confusion?

  34. No, I said that now is the time that Efrayim is coming back to YHWH and knowing who they are in Messiah as the House of Israel.

    There isn't any confusion on that point.

    What is difficult to understand is the amount and type of animosity that is coming from some in the House of Judah towards returning Efrayim.

    Yet scripture says that there will be a time when Efrayim no longer envies Judah and Judah will no longer vex (aggravate) Efrayim.

    I am hoping that the day comes soon.


  35. "There isn't any confusion on that point."


  36. Gene I have always been impressed with your willingness to be open and honest about your confusion and misunderstanding regarding the two houses of Israel.

    And few have matched your dedication of effort to cast those who do see this truth in scripture as liars and thieves.

    Yet, somehow, I hold out hope for you, against all odds, that one day you will also leave your confusion behind and join the whole House of Israel.

    Shabbat Shalom


  37. Anonymous,

    So one more time: who are these "Ephrayim"? Can you identify them? Or maybe you can identify who is Judah? I guess you have all the documents to prove who is who?

  38. It's in the bible Dan. If you want to start at the division of Israel into the northern and southern tribes, read in Kings beginning at the end of Solomon's reign.

    If you want to find out what happened to the northern tribes (all 10 of them), keep reading Kings and then read Chronicles 1 & 2.

    If you want to know who Efrayim is and what YHWH plans for them, read Hoshea, Yirmeyahu, Yechezk'el, Amos, Z'kharyah and so on.

    If you want to see how the two houses begin to come back together, read Sha'ul's letter to the congregation in Ephesus, especially chapter two.

    If you are asking for documents outside of scripture, you will have to find them yourself as I am not interested in what a man or men have to say about it.

    YHWH will complete His Word and none can stay His hand.

    This isn't very complicated. I am a little surprised that you don't know these things. Perhaps you rely on the Talmud?


  39. So, we can assume that you have no idea who Ephrayim is and you are just guessing, Right?

    By your refusal to tell us we can conclude that all this is your invention, no? Historically you have no proof, right?

    Say Hi to Batya Wooten, she does not have any idea either....LOL!

  40. "Perhaps you rely on the Talmud?"

    Yeah, throw a little of standard Two-House anti-Judaism into the mix, for good measure.

    "By your refusal to tell us we can conclude that all this is your invention, no? "

    I think it's much more comforting for Ephrayim to believe in Batya's fairy tales that tickle his ears, to eat them up. He's attracted to being a Jew/Israelite because he's not happy that he was born a Gentile by G-d's design. Although I am sure that he doesn't regret having missed 2000 years of pogroms and massacres that befell the Jews. Funny that Ephraimites didn't and do not want to claim their "special" status during times or in places when being Jewish sucked or sucks even today. What a joke!

  41. Efrayim said, "Perhaps you rely on the Talmud?"

    To which Gene replied, "Yeah, throw a little of standard Two-House anti-Judaism into the mix, for good measure."

    Its quite telling of the ignorance of such anti-Judaists, who think that the Talmud is intended to be the same, or on par with the Tanakh. If they'd taken any time to understand first what it is, and then learn some of it, they would realize that's absolutely not what it is nor is intended to be.

    You'll end up looking like an idiot when you talk smack about something you have no idea about.

    What's the verse that the anti-Judaists like to quote to their Christian counterparts? Oh yeah.. "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge", that's it... hmm, should take their own advice I guess...

  42. Unfortunately I have once again run into the arrogant ignorance of those who trust in the flesh.

    Dan, I almost feel sorry for you, but not quite.

    Gene you are never a surprise. Such a shame.

    And as for you, I know more about the Talmud than you will allow yourself to think.

    Since it appears that none of you know what scripture says, I must be speaking to the air.


  43. Oh and by the way, nice counter-argument guys. Well thought out, plenty of substance, good use of scripture. Perhaps the three of you should get together and write a book that will put all us "two house" folks to shame.

    Shouldn't be too hard, right?

  44. Still don't know who the "ephramites" are, do you?+

    You want a sound argument? Here it is:Historically you have none. You couldn't come through the door with the armsrong stuff, so you are trying to get in through the window with Batya's stuff...And you feel sorry for me?

    FYI, I have an Israeli passport, where is yours? You guys deny my heritage, you want to take my land, as an Israeli to me you are just like the Hizzbulla.

    What are you guys going to do? Organize a flotila to come take over our land? Go home!!!

  45. Well Dan I must say I'm sorry. I did not realize you are such an unstable individual.

    But really, do think making up lies about me, or others like me is going to cause anyone to take you seriously?

    For your information, the Land does not belong to the Jews or anyone else. The Land belongs to YHWH (see the book called the bible)and He will have whomever He wants living there based on their obedience to Him.

    And once again you make incorrect assumptions about me. And you have no idea what my passport says, nor will I ever tell someone like you.

    You can call yourself a Jew if you want, but I'm fairly certain at this point that you have no idea what that really means.

    Take care. Try not to hurt yourself or others.

    This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned.

  46. As long as you keep hijacking every conversation on the blogs with your Micky Mouse 2 house doctrine, you can rest assure this conversation is not over. We will keep exposing you on every corner.....

  47. Efrayim,

    Instead of getting all personally offended because someone attacked your theology and argument methods, look at this situation rationally.

    If the two house theology is correct, it will survive the time among the ever-changing Messianic movement and all its splinters, and it will end in something fruitful. It will end in the event of ten goyim grasping hold of an ish Yehudhi (a Jewish man) and to be taken with "you" in the plural, meaning the whole Jewish people (i.e. not merely this one "Jewish man"). That is exactly how Zekharyah 8:22 is written in the Hebrew text as opposed to an English translation where you won't find that plural "you" ("take us with you [plural]"), lest you be deceived and say this gives you a reason to make your own religion based on your Karaite Yeshu.

    There you have it. Now you see, I don't hate you, think you're evil. I just think you're a bit misled and could learn more. You got a Tanakh lesson from a Jew, now please consider Torah Judaism, see my blogs on the necessity of the Oral Torah for Torah observance. At least check out this video about 40 Biblical Verifications of Oral Torah.

    Shavua` tov!

  48. I know this topic is ancient history in internet time, but I have been stewing over this for awhile now and ready to enter my $0.02 into the discussion. Rather than focus on the discussion this post has generated, I would like to focus on Dr. Dauermann's original post and of his concepts expressed therein.

    First of all, to me, the Judaism of today, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox is very different from that of the time of Scripture. Even though the adherents of both are called Jews, I think a Jew of Scripture times would not easily recognize the Judaism of today and vice-a-versa.

    That being said, it seems to me that Dr. Dauermann is making a comparison that is just not valid. When he quotes Paul as saying "our religion," I do not think that means we need to make the same comparison today. To me the Judaism of Paul's day was basically that of Scripture. The Judaism of today is that of Talmud. This is not to argue right or wrong about what Judaism is today, just that it is very, very different that it was back then. I think the connection of an early follower of Yeshua to the Judaism of the day would be much stronger than it would be today, as the path of both Judaism and the early followers has diverged a great deal in the passing millennia.

    I would say if the Judaism of today is closely equal to the Judaism of Scripture, then Dr. Dauermann would have a point, but I personally do not think that to be the case and thus I do think that todays Judaism is more like any other non-Christian religion that it is not.

    The second thought I take away from Dr. Dauermann's post is an air of elitism for Judaism that I have trouble seeing, especially since, as Judah has pointed out, that it is a faith that rejects the Messiahship of Yeshua.

    While I hold a great deal of pride in my Jewish heritage, to me that does not translate into considering the faith of my recent fathers as really any different in any real way from other faiths that reject Yeshua. And in the end I come away agreeing with Judah that without Messiah any uniqueness that Judaism has really is of little meaning or difference.

  49. Bryan,

    Thanks for offering your [belated] thoughts. I am now going to stew over yours. :-)


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