[The book of] Revelation is a bad place for those who deny the deity of Jesus.
Not only do you have him identified as the First and the Last, Beginning and End, Alpha and Omega, but he is explicitly worshiped along with God in Revelation, the 5th chapter.
The very same worship that goes to God the Father goes to Jesus; either he is God, or that’s idolatry. […] And when you get to the end of Revelation, 22:3, the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city and his servants will serve Him. God and the Lamb are one entity.
-Dr. Michael Brown, in the deity of Yeshua podcast.
Poppycock!
ReplyDeleteThe book of Revelations is a mystical Jewish writing, on par with other books of Kabbalah.
For example, quoting an article, the Zohar says such about the figure Metatron:
In the Soncino Zohar glossary, Metatron is given the following two definitions:
-The chief of the Chieftains, the power charged with the sustenance of mankind
-The head of the "world of creation," called also the "servant" or the "body" of the Shekinah
As seen in the citations below, Metatron also bears a great likeness to Yeshua in that:
-The heavenly Temple is His
He is compared to Joshua and to God
He teaches Jews the mysteries of the Torah
-He performs an atoning work for Israel
To read some of the verses from the Zohar which say this, read the rest of the article quoted above.
There is even more said about Metatron in the Zohar, for example..
Who is Metatron? He is the highest archangel, esteemed more than any other of God’s hosts.
…He [Metraton] is the very first. Nobody can understand anything higher than this. Why? Because it is closed for the mind. God’s mind is a closed mystery from above. The mind of man can be connected with things, but no one can connect God’s mind from above, the more His thoughts. He is without end.
And Abraham said to his servant. Why to his servant? He looked at his wisdom. Rabbi Mehorai says, He looked only at what he said. God’s servant and who is he? This is Metatron, as we said. He will be the one who will give life to the bodies in the graves.
Abraham spoke to his servant. He is Metatron, the elder in his house, the first of God’s creatures, who rules all His house. God, blessed be his name, gave him to rule over his hosts.
Yet, worshiping Metatron as the Creator Himself is idolatry. Why all the parallels between Metatron and Yehoshua`? Because they're the same.
Aharon,
ReplyDeleteSeem to me that you are kind'a lost out there in the weeds brother.
Perhaps listening to too many crazy ideas from unbelievers is spinning your head?
Why don't you come back in from the rain and let Judah help you through this rough spot.
Shalom,
Efrayim
Popcorn chicken.
ReplyDeleteOk, so I'm familiar with the Yeshua-Metatron likening.
What's your take on Revelation? The Lamb -- the Messiah -- is worshiped, and is one with God.
Efrayim,
ReplyDeleteHaha, if getting into authentic Judaism is "lost out there in the weeds", then that's where Yehoshua` was, and that's where I want to be.
Its completely backwards when people are fine with considering the "NT" writings to be freelance and a departure from Judaism--but think you're crazy when you parallel them like mad with other Jewish writings. In fact its asinine how backward that is.
Damning observant Jews by calling them "unbelievers" and thus unqualified for `olam haba is also backwards and severely messed up.
In fact, observant Jews are what Yehoshua` was, but unfortunately a MASSIVE minority of those who name him actually follow after.
Judah,
ReplyDelete"One-with" or "one" or "same as" or "united with"? "One with", implying "united with", means different than but in one accord or essence. "One" can also mean that, or it can mean "same as" or "same being". And where can the infinite, limitless Creator be contained in the dimensions of time, space, and matter--which are things He Himself created from nothing, by His speech, in wisdom.
Adham Qadhmon (same as Metatron/Yehoshua`), the "Original Adam" is the first and head of all creation. Yet, HaShem is the First and the Last. How can this be? Metatron/Yehoshua` is the speech/word by which the universe was created, not the actual Creator Himself, he is the head malakh and placed as authority over all creation. Still, we don't even pray to him, we pray only to the Creator not to any malakh. Yet, by way of his authority we can pray, i.e., "in the authority of..." which is what "in the name of..." actually means, it being a Hebrew idiom..
And you can pray in the authority of other malakhim as well as different aspects of the Creator according to which Name you use (the Sacred Namers will get angry to know the Creator has many names, Y-H-W-H, which isn't pronounced "Yahweh" nor "Yehovah", is just one of them and there are even longer and shorter versions of that same name).
Nothing in the book of Revelations means Metatron is the Creator Himself, or that we're to worship him as the Creator.
The Problem with comparing the Zohar to the NT, is that the Zohar was written in the midevil era and Revelation in the late first century. A better comparison would be the writings of the Psdeupagrapha writings of Enoch, etc. In which a Messiah figure is worshiped. However that being said I have no problem what so ever comparing the Zohar to the NT, I just think we need to be careful to not go down the path which teaches that the NT must agree with later Rabbinical writings to be "Kosher." Or assuming because something sounds the same in Rabbinic Literature to something in the NT, that the two are agreeing. Now that being said I really have no issue with the worship of Yeshua for a few reasons.
ReplyDeleteA. He is worshiped by the disciples.
B. He is worthy of Worship according to the christologies of Paul and John.
C. He is accorded Worship in Revelation.
As well there is a place in the Talmud (R' Lichtenstein quotes it, I can't remember the source I think somewhere in Bava Kamma) that the Messiah is worshiped.
However even if the Talmud/Zohar did not support such an idea the support of the NT is sufficient.
Efrayim,
ReplyDeleteAnd btw, the whole concept of `olam haba, the next world, is that of Oral-Torah believing Judaism.
People can't legitimately come along and say "oh, this Jewish Rabbi from the first century took this Jewish concept of the next world and said that all we need to do is believe he exists and is who he says he is to get to this next world, thus having eternal life". That's ridiculous, and not even what Rabi Yehoshua` said.
Rabi Yehoshua` says in order to have a place in the next world, one must follow after the commands which are incumbent upon him to do. "Trusting" in a Rabi means living according to his Torah. The two aren't different. But Galatians will confuse you from this when you read later on in the "NT".
Jeremiah,
ReplyDeleteAccording to some, the Zohar was written in the second century. According to others, not until the medieval period.
I would be more careful about translations or versions of the "NT" which come from texts that have been admittedly edited later by those of non-Jewish, Hellenistic belief.
One may ascribe greatness to the highest of all created beings throughout all the physical and spiritual worlds, sure. The only problem is naming that highest creation as the Creator Himself.
Hey! Jeremiah, what a nice surprise to see you in these comments.
ReplyDeleteAaron,
This is what I'm getting at:
"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Notice that worship of God is worship of the Lamb, the Messiah. Worshiped as one. That's a model for us.
Look man. We're brothers. You believe Yeshua is above all creation. You believe he's at the right hand of God. You believe he's raised from the dead. That he's our atonement. He's in the heavenly temple. He's far above any malakh.
You get all that, and we agree.
I'm asking you to believe -- because Yeshua's disciples testified with their lives -- that Messiah and the Father are to be worshiped as one. Is Messiah the Creator? Maybe it's complex, more than we can understand. I get that. But I do know that, from the writings of Yeshua's closest disciples, Yeshua is worshiped, is Lord, is Aleph and Tov. Worthy of worship.
Of course, we can talk about this in person, since you're sitting in the room next to me typing away at your keyboard. ;-)
Aharon,
ReplyDeleteI expected some dust from you, thanks for delivering.
I would suppose that since you are attempting to justify yourself through specific observances of specific portions of Torah, and you can't, that instead you have chosen to try and bring Messiah down to your level so as to have a better chance of qualifying for the "olam haba".
If I may ask - since you seem intent on gaining the greatest distance humanly possible away from the teachings of the "NT", as they seem to have become suspect in your eyes, how will you reconcile the agreement of the testimony of the Torah and the Prophets regarding Messiah with the "NT" revelations about His life, ministry and ultimate victory over this entire creation? A creation which He testifies that He brought into being with own Word?
I can appreciate some of the benefits of what might be called by some as "true Judaism", but I wouldn't want to neglect the spiritual realities that exist in Messiah in the process.
Yeshua was YHWH in the flesh when He walked the earth. Deny that and you deny Him. Deny Him and the next world will not be available for you to live in.
Your thinking is not complex, rather it is confused. As I said, input from unbelievers will produce unbelief. No matter how well they observe Torah. Because we both know that observing Torah in unbelief is not acceptable to YHWH.
If I have misunderstood you based on what you wrote I apologize. But if what you wrote is actually what you believe, then I stand by my comments.
Shalom,
Efrayim
The bottom line is, the huge huge majority of Messianics don't keep Torah and therefore don't follow in the footsteps of Rabi Yehoshua`.
ReplyDeleteIf you worship a man as if he is the Creator, you're defying the Tanakh (Numbers 23:19, Psalm 146:3). In fact, those verses are so good, let me type them out:
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
Psalm 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
In fact, Messianic theology is just like that of Christianity in that it is the right way and Jews are still damned for "unbelief", and they still mostly hold to gnostic beliefs like that of "thinking something will get me salvation", even though Rabi Yehoshua` clearly linked life in the next world to observance of the misswoth, as does his religion, Judaism. Messianism and Christianity do not believe this.
The laws of Shaboth are neglected frequently, laws of kashruth are neglected, the explanations and wisdoms of the Torah passed down orally from Moshe through to the Prophets, the final 3 (Malakhi, Zekharyah, Hhagai) who were the fathers of the Rabim, are neglected for simplistic, western, no-knowledge-of-the-Hebrew-language, Karaite-style interpretations of the Torah which are just incorrect. Sorry, but I just don't call that real Torah observance.
To Messianics like Efrayim and others, 'Messiah' brings the Torah to nothing, while they complain all day that observance of the Torah in the correct manner is an infringement on 'the Messiahship of Yeshua'. Or that, "we're not saved by works of the law", thus adhering to the gnostic belief that believing in some fact automatically assures you reward of eternal life. What happens when Rabi Yehoshua` is asked what assures the reward of eternal life? He repeats qeriyath shema`, the twice-daily thing every Torah observer is supposed to recite evening and morning to remind himself that we are commanded to be literally obsessed with the commands of Torah in our rising, retiring, walking along the path, sitting in our home, to bind the words of Torah upon our hearts and our souls, and bind tefillin on our heads and arms and bind mezuzoth, etc. That is what will assure a Jew eternal life!!
And all this touchy touchy behavior is annoying. Its no secret, you think I'm going to hell by believing what I clearly proved is the truth, and I think you are committing idolatry. Doesn't mean I hate you, just the fact of the matter.
-Aharon
I think it should be apparent, while conflicting opinions are always out there wherever you go and that's just the norm, what you have in the Christian and Messianic world is bad: people damning each other to hell for not believing something exactly the way they supposedly need to.
ReplyDeleteA better thing to argue about is how you are or aren't keeping the Torah. And even if one side is doing something incorrect, very few offenses in Torah disqualify one from life in the next world, and there's always teshuva.
Ahron
And let my clarify, Torah is ONLY for Israel and those who are becoming part of Israel.
ReplyDeleteמַגִּיד דְּבָרָו לְיַעֲקֹב; חֻקָּיו וּמִשְׁפָּטָיו, לְיִשְׂרָאֵל
לֹא עָשָׂה כֵן, לְכָל-גּוֹי-- וּמִשְׁפָּטִים בַּל-יְדָעוּם:
הַלְלוּ-יָהּ.
He tells his word to Jacob; His statutes and ordinances to Israel
He didn't do this for any other nation-- and his ordinances they do not know:
Give praise to Yoh -Psalm 147:19-20
Jewzilla - Aharon,
ReplyDeletePlease consider the following:
"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Messiah Yeshua, and have no confidence in the flesh;
though I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If any other man thinks that he has confidence in the flesh, I yet more:
circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Yisra'el, of the tribe of Binyamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; concerning the law, a Parush;
concerning zeal, persecuting the assembly; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, found blameless.
However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Messiah.
Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Messiah Yeshua, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Messiah
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Messiah, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;
if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."
While you may want to put your trust in your ability to observe certain portions of Torah, you will find in the end that it is not possible to reach the goal of obtaining eternal life in YHWH through your own efforts.
And saying that Yeshua is an archangel is not only a lie, but a dangerous heresy that can lead many astray. While I can't imagine that it is your intention to do so, it will nevertheless be the result.
It is sad for me to see you so close to the truth and yet you fail to grasp it.
Shalom,
Efrayim
Only putting trust in HaShem and Rabi Yehoshua` by doing my utmost to keep the misswoth. That's what the word "faith" means, emuna, believing that HaShem and His Torah are true and doing them to the utmost. That's why I'm in a constant strive to learn more Torah as time goes on, obey more misswoth, understand the Written and Oral Torahs more, and praying the daily prayers along with hithbodeduth in order to draw closer to my Creator. As I've done that, I've drifted farther and farther away from Christianity and Messianism and into authentic Torah-Judaism, may it ever increase.
ReplyDeleteSaying that Rabi Yehoshua` is now the highest divine being created isn't heresy. By what standard do you say that? A misojudaic view of "NT" texts? Seriously, going against the Tanakh and saying God is a man is heresy to the utmost, and to the Creator you owe repentance.
I think you've helped me quite plainly prove that Messianics adhere to gnostic/Christian theology, at times, over the Tanakh. Serious flaw, that's why a good amount of Messianism is going nowhere, its another failed "Protestant reformation". A million self-righteous denominations all damning each other to hell. Have fun!
Ahron
Aaron, I guess you didn't see my question. I gave a bit of Revelation -- which you believe to be a mystical Jewish book -- where Messiah and God are worshiped as one. What's your take?
ReplyDeleteHere it is again in case you missed it:
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The creatures said amen, and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Dear Mr. Jewzilla,
ReplyDeleteI do not condemn you. By your rejecting the truth about YHWH's only Son you have condemned yourself.
I am not your judge and you are not mine. There is one who judges and His judgement is just and right.
I am simply pointing out the inevitable consequences that would befall any man who denies the truth of YHWH and the testimony of His Son, Messiah Yeshua.
Yeshua receives worship as Elohim from those who love Him and keep His commandments.
Consider this:
"YHWH, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.
His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
having become so much better than the angels, as he has inherited a more excellent name than they have.
For to which of the angels did he say at any time, "You are my Son, Today have I become your father?" and again, "I will be to him a Father, And he will be to me a Son?"
Again, when he brings in the firstborn into the world he says, "Let all the angels of God worship him."
Of the angels he says, "Who makes his angels winds, And his servants a flame of fire."
but of the Son he says, "Your throne, O YHWH, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore YHWH, your Father, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows."
And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the eretz. The heavens are the works of your hands.
They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.
As a mantle you will roll them up, And they will be changed; But you are the same. Your years will not fail."
But of which of the angels has he said at any time, "Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet?"
Aren't they all ministering spirits, sent out to do service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"
It gets pretty obvious when you search for the truth rather than trying to establish the truth on your own terms.
Can you answer Judah's question?
Shalom,
Efrayim
Judah,
ReplyDeleteI saw your question and answered. First, what would you call the book of Revelation? Not Jewish, not written by a Jew who was practicing Judaism? Not mystical? Come on..
Not only did I quote Kabbalistic sources mentioning Metatron being established above all creation, and certainly being given due praise as the head of all creation, but I also cited the Tanakh upon which all truth stems. Clearly you're placing your understanding of Revelation over the truth of the Tanakh, and so you're in error.
I see this happen all the time, in fact, Efrayim just did it by quoting a redacted text, but not only that, but his own personal non-Jewish understanding of that text, in the contextual thought that his man-god "savior" created something contrary to Written+Oral Torah believing and adhering Judaism.
That exact context created in the minds of Christians and a variety of Messianics is what leads to their theology being nothing but western, modern-day, self-created theology. Which would be fine and dandy if one didn't need to read the writings of Oral Torah believing Jews in the context of their own religion and culture. Thus, lack of understanding the Oral Torah (and thus lack of understanding the Written Torah since the Oral Torah is its explanation and guide), and lack of understanding Jewish culture and way of life in the depth needed, makes it impossible for somebody to understand "NT" writings. The redactions made to them, not to mention faulty translations and erroneous Greek texts makes the misunderstanding all the worse...
Efrayim,
Your ridiculous "I don't condemn you, your failure to blah blah blah condemns you" statement doesn't even follow basic logic. YOUR [dafuq] theology condemns me.
Read what I just wrote, above, in this same reply. You have no understanding of the things you're trying to talk to about, you're sorely mistaken because of your lack of knowledge and understanding of the right topics.
Without a deep understanding of the issues, debates, happenings, and culture in general of Judaism in that time--you won't understand the various "NT" texts, you'll just end up misunderstanding them a very Christian fashion.
Jewzilla,
ReplyDeleteIn the first place you are only guessing as what the extent of my knowledge and understanding may be.
In the second place you have obviously been lead astray by the mystical writings of unbelievers. By unbelievers I mean those people who have rejected the salvation of YHWH that comes through His only Son, Yeshua.
In the third place you seem to have very little knowledge or understanding about the texts of the current covenant in which followers of Messiah Yeshua derive their understanding of their relationship with YHWH through their trusting in Yeshua.
Since you appear to be content to choose darkness and call it light, and to reject the light and call it darkness, I really don't think there is anything left to say at this point.
May YHWH grant you mercy that you may see His truth and find rest for your soul.
Moving on...
Not really guessing, Efrayim, your responses tell a lot.
ReplyDeleteYou're way off. You believe in a man-god, you're defying the Tanakh and are involved in `avodha zara. You condemn to hell people who are obedient to the Creator and are involved in no such idolatry. You are deceived by the gnostic teaching that a mere belief grants you eternal life. So instead of going around in circles, might as well leave it at that.
-Ahron
ReplyDeleteדֶּרֶךְ-שֶׁקֶר, הָסֵר מִמֶּנִּי; וְתוֹרָתְךָ חָנֵּנִי
דֶּרֶךְ-אֱמוּנָה בָחָרְתִּי; מִשְׁפָּטֶיךָ שִׁוִּיתִי
Remove from me the way of falsehood,
An favor me with Your Torah.
I have chosen the way of FAITH;
Your right-rulings I have held level."
Psalm 119:29-30
The way of faith in the one-and-only Creator who is not a man is the way of Torah!? Christian/Messianic theology be damned! hahaha
Its only a matter of time before a "well, jayzeus changed it" comment comes...
>> Clearly you're placing your understanding of Revelation over the truth of the Tanakh, and so you're in error.
ReplyDeleteClearly you're interpreting my words in the worst way possible. :-)
Let's summarize the arguments so far:
Dr. Brown: Yeshua is divine.
Aaron: poppycock
Judah: No, it's true. The Lamb is worshipped in Rev.
Aaron: Yeshua is Metatron.
Judah: Uh, ok. The Lamb is worshipped as God.
Aaron: Messianics suck.
Judah: What about Revelation? Messiah is worshiped as God.
Aaron: Metatron is given praise as head of creation.
(If any of this is inaccurate, please show me and I will correct it.)
Now my response is: you're saying it's OK to praise Yeshua as the head of creation, but not OK to praise him as creator. Is that accurate?