This week, the world's most popular podcast, the Joe Rogan Experience (JRE), hosted Christian apologist Wesley Huff.
Wes is a historian, author, researcher, expert in Biblical manuscripts and early Christian writings, PhD candidate, and defender of the authenticity of the Gospel accounts. I've followed Wes' writings and videos for years, so I'm happy to see him get some major exposure on JRE.
Here's the full episode:
Why is this significant? Protestia explains that this episode is likely to be the furthest reaching gospel broadcast in history.
Huff’s message went out to Joe Rogan’s 14 million regular listeners. Even moderately popular episodes enjoy over 11 million downloads, and some far more. In a month’s time, Rogan’s downloads exceed 190 million in the course of a month (which is more than the number of Americans who watched the moon landing). It’s more than those who watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. It’s more than those who watched Nixon’s resignation speech. It’s more than those who watched the Chiefs beat the Eagles at ‘23 Super Bowl. It’s more than those watched the O.J. Simpson verdict. It’s more than those who watched JFK’s funeral, or the wedding of Prince William and Kate Middleton.
As an example of the podcast's influence, just before days before the 2024 election, President Trump appeared on JRE, and it resulted in a last minute bump towards Trump, leading to an election victory.
These unscripted, long form conversations are powerful. The podcast has some 14 million listeners and avid followers from a variety of backgrounds and persuasions.
Wesley Huff appears on the podcast to talk about God and the truth of the Bible. He did a fantastic job of defending common objections to the historicity of Jesus, specifically his death and resurrection. Questions like, "How do we know Jesus really died when he was crucified?", "How do we know Jesus appeared to people alive after his crucifixion?", Wes handles it well and gives the evidence.
I want to zero in on a question where the Torah comes up and dive a bit deeper on it. (After all, friends, this is the Kineti blog!)
Wes argues in this clip that Jesus was against moralism:
"Jesus condemns moralism. If Jesus is nothing but a moral example, then you can save yourself, and you don't actually need a Savior."
— Jon Root (@JonnyRoot_) January 7, 2025
- Wesley Huff on The Joe Rogan Podcast 🔥 👏
pic.twitter.com/bOj99XlXqy
Here's the interesting bits:
Huff: I actually think that Jesus condemns moralism. And ultimately what I see [Jordan] Peterson doing is looking at Jesus as a moral example. And if Jesus is nothing but a moral example, then you can save yourself and you don't need a Savior. I think Jesus would critique that, because Jesus is very against moralism.
Rogan: How do you define Jesus being against moralism? What do you mean by that?
Huff: Jesus looks at the religiosity of his day, with particular groups like... the Pharisees who are like lay scholars, and Sadducees who are professional priest scholars, and he's constantly critiquing the fact they have this hypocritical religiosity to them. They're constantly doing things like, uh, tithing their mint leaves to make sure they get all...this is where we get letter of the law vs. intention of the law. Jesus critiques them for that because he says, 'You're trying to do everything right, and you're missing the point.' One of the things he says is, if one of your donkeys falls in a ravine on the sabbath, do you pull it out? Or is that work? What's the point of the sabbath?
Rogan: Hmmm.
Huff: Is it to not do any work? Like, is it to make sure you're not working too hard, because you might be breaking the sabbath? Or like, what is the point? And he says, the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. And there's this intention -- and this is the whole Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapter 5 -- is he keeps saying, "You have heard it said, but I say..." and he's referring to the Mosaic Law. And it looks like he's critiquing the Mosaic Law, but he's not actually. He's getting back to the intention of the Law. So when he says, "You've heard it said, 'Do not commit murder', but I say to you anybody who harbors hate for their brother in their heart has committed murder." - what he's getting at is, what is the intention, what's the meaning of the Law that God gives to you?
This is really great and I applaud Wesley for telling millions of listeners God is real, the Bible is true, and giving evidence for Jesus' resurrection. I love that Wes explained that Jesus isn't critiquing the Law, he's getting to the purpose of the Law. This is a profound truth and many lay people in Christianity miss it.
Wes' comments on Jesus and the Law goes well with my recent teaching, The Law of Christ is the Law of Moses Kept in a Christlike Way. Jesus isn't critiquing "You shall not murder", he's saying that the true goal of that law was to prevent hatred in your heart, and that having hatred in your heart is actually breaking the Torah. Likewise for the law against committing adultery: its true aim was to prevent sexual immorality even in the mind and the heart; merely lusting after someone other than your spouse is actually breaking the Torah.
OK! But there's a wriggle here. I don't blame Huff for not addressing it, because the Rogan podcast audience is not ready for deep theology. But maybe you are, dear reader.
The wriggle is the sabbath and its true meaning.
Huff says,
"One of the things [Jesus] says is, if your donkey falls in a ravine on the sabbath, do you pull it out? Or is that work? What's the point of the sabbath? Is it to not do any work? Like, is it to make sure you're not working too hard, because you might break the sabbath?"
Let's put these in a table to illuminate the issue:
| Torah commandment | True meaning | True meaning aligns with plain meaning |
|---|---|---|
| Do not commit murder | Do not have hatred in your heart. | ✅ |
| Do not commit adultery. | Do not lust in your heart. | ✅ |
| Do not work on the sabbath; keep it holy. | ❓ | ❓ |
See the issue? Huff states there's a true meaning behind the commandments in the Law. But note that the commandments' plain meaning cannot be cancelled by their true intention:
- No hatred in the heart doesn't mean we're now free to commit murder, of course.
- Likewise, no lust in the heart doesn't mean we're free to commit adultery.
- No work on the sabbath doesn't mean we're free to work on the sabbath or treat it like any other day.
That's the wriggle: Christianity largely does work on the sabbath and treats it like any other day.
If I'm being charitable, Christianity keeps the 1st day of the week, Sunday, as the new sabbath. That also contradicts the plain meaning of the commandment in Exodus 20:9-11. But even if we grant Sunday is the new sabbath and is considered holy by meeting with other Christians on the sabbath, work is still permitted on Sunday. There are notable exceptions, like Chik-Fil-A restaurants. But it's the exception that proves the rule. The Christian world, whether Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, works on the sabbath even if we move the sabbath to Sunday. This again cancels the plain meaning of the text.
And there's another mystery here. What is the true meaning, the real intention, of the law about resting on the sabbath and keeping it holy? Is there a true meaning, one deeper than the plain meaning?
Jesus doesn't explicitly give us one like he does for murder and adultery.
He gives an example that saving the life of an animal on the sabbath is permissible. (Judaism's concept of pikuach nefesh.) He heals a man on the sabbath and tells us that it's permissible to do good on the sabbath. Jesus says the sabbath is made for man. Here are the prominent sayings of Jesus on the sabbath. Make good note of what is, and isn't, there:
| Jesus' statement | Implied true meaning |
|---|---|
| "Which of you, with a son, or even an ox, falling into a well on the sabbath, will not immediately pull him out?" | Healing a person or saving their life is permissible on the sabbath. |
| "Haven’t you read in the Torah that on the sabbath the priests in the Temple break the sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the Temple is here." | A divine priority: Messiah is greater than the Temple, and the Temple is greater than sabbath. "Violating" lesser priorities in service to a higher priority is no violation at all. |
| "Therefore it is permitted to do good on the sabbath." | The sabbath is meant for good. |
| "The Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath." | Messiah created the sabbath. The creator of the sabbath has authority to say what is permissible on it. |
| "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." | The sabbath is intended for the benefit of humanity. The sabbath should be a joy and a delight, not a burden. |
Is there deeper meaning to the sabbath commandments? Certainly. But I think these are a good start.
Notably missing from Jesus' sabbath statements are any claims that all work is permissible on the sabbath, or that the sabbath is done away with.
My conviction remains and is strengthened: Jesus did not wish his followers to do away with the sabbath. He wished to tell us that preserving life trumps not working on the sabbath. He wished to tell us that sabbath was created for us. He wished to tell us that doing good on the sabbath is permissible. But I'm convinced Jesus did not intend for a non-existent sabbath where anything is permissible.
Jesus' disciples should have a day of rest. It should be on the 7th day. You can do good works on it, and you can save someone's life on it. It should be a joy and not a burden; it was created for us. But it's a day of rest, not a day to work or catch up on your shopping. Christianity needs reform in this area.
