If I could force every Messianic to read just a single blog post, it would be this one:
Should scholarship undermine experience?
What do I mean by this? I am referring to our brothers and sisters who study themselves out of belief in Yeshua as the Messiah, or study so that he becomes just another possible “candidate” for Messiah. This, I believe, is our most serious enemy in the Torah “movement.” I have seen countless people, all who truly love Hashem and pursue truth, yet the stone of stumbling, Yeshua, becomes the obstacle offense for a “true” Judaic theology.Yeshua and his identity as G-d’s Son are huge impediment to people who want to totally identify and become a part of today’s Judaism who has rejected him across the board. I can also attest to this because it happened to me, and only through a true miracle of G-d did I overcome this difficulty. During this time of struggle, I became a lame duck believer; a believer in name only but not in faith. I became an ineffectual and paralyzed part of the body of Messiah and wanted to leave this “messy- antic” movement so that I could blend in with Judaism who seems to have all the answers. It would have been easy; I am a Jew and I have the blood of Aaron coursing in my veins. It should have been easy; but it wasn’t at all, it was crippling.
I have seen this same transition among other Messianics, both Jew and gentile.
It goes like this:
- Torah is great!
- Torah is the truth!
- Judaism is the One True Religion!
- Judaism doesn’t like Christianity.
- Christianity is not from God!
- Christianity has false beliefs!
- The New Testament is heavily redacted!
- The New Testament isn’t reliable.
- Yeshua is a messiah.
- Yeshua might not be divine.
- Yeshua might not be the messiah.
- Jesus is a false messiah.
- Jesus is an idol, and Christianity is an idolatrous religion, the New Testament is a book of lies.
Ah, yet another post about the grave dangers of Judaism and getting dangerously too close to Jews...
ReplyDeleteThe danger here isn't Judaism. The danger here is in being influenced by certain voices within Judaism, voices that tear down the name of Messiah.
ReplyDelete"In our attempt to understand our roots in Torah we tend to read many things that are all but flattering about Yeshua. Scholarly materials, anti-Missionary websites, and a plethora of Judaic sources that affirm that Yeshua is not the Messiah, not sent of our Father, and a heretic of the past who met his fate because he was leading Israel away from Torah. Reading these materials will be inevitable when studying Jewish sources of law and philosophy and for the most part doesn’t deter the person doing the study, at first, because of the healthy relationship between reader and Hashem. However, it does plant little seeds of doubt in the mind which grow in time into a major obstacle to the faith and can really do damage to our faith if we are not prepared for that battle.
I've seen this with both Jews and gentiles. I've seen it with my own brother. This is an empirical problem. It is something we must be on guard about, not something to just shrug off as some anti-Judaism schtick. It's not that at all. It's a matter of faithfulness to our Master.
Yes, we must be on guard against falling away from Messiah. No disagreement here from me. However, shying away from hearing counterarguments and teachings contrary to our understanding of Messiah IS not the answer. It's not the answer for those Jews who wish to interact with their own people in ways other than Jews-for-Jesus style polemical confrontations.
ReplyDeleteIt's not the answer because if one spends ANY time in an actual flesh and blood Jewish community one will INVARIABLY be exposed to the fact that the Jewish people today 1). do not believe in Yeshua as Messiah and 2) view believing in Yeshua an idolatrous Gentile shtick that rips away any Jew from his own people. More than that, one will definitely hear some very good and even compelling reasons for this unbelief - by which I mean SOME of their reasons are INDEED valid because they hit back at how Yeshua was presented to Jews for the last 2K years, that is from a completely Gentilized and more often that not antithetical to Judaism and Jews as a people perspective.
However, I can testify to the fact that the more works of sages I read and the more I get away from polemics, the MORE Yeshua I actually see within their pages, including Yeshua who is not just another human being but an exalted King of Israel and the World, second only to the Father in greatness and whose spirit is called "Spirit of G-d", a Messiah with mighty supernatural powers one one hand, but one who suffered for the sins of others, willingly, on the other.
What is the answer then (besides the obvious sticking close to Yeshua one)? Study and search the scriptures daily, know your stuff and be ready with an answer. As importantly, associating with other strong and experienced followers of Yeshua who have found the right balance and voicing to them your doubts and fears, who have lived within a Jewish community and know their way around. Have them hold you up when doubts strike (and they will).
"If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up!"(Ecclesiastes 4:10)
"Torah is great!
ReplyDeleteTorah is the truth!
Judaism is the One True Religion!
Judaism doesn’t like Christianity.
Christianity is not from God!
Christianity has false beliefs!
The New Testament is heavily redacted!
The New Testament isn’t reliable.
Yeshua is a messiah.
Yeshua might not be divine.
Yeshua might not be the messiah.
Jesus is a false messiah.
Jesus is an idol, and Christianity is an idolatrous religion, the New Testament is a book of lies."
Faulty logic plus lack of faith (unbelief) results believing lies unto one's own condemnation.
ref Acts 17:10-11; 1 Thessalonians 5:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
The corollary is that once you love someone, you will always love them. (I have experienced challenges which prove this cliche.)
Yak
Good comment, Gene.
ReplyDeleteYou said,
shying away from hearing counterarguments and teachings contrary to our understanding of Messiah IS not the answer.
Agreed. And the author of the post agrees, too. His argument is not, "Don't read Jewish materials, you'll fall away from Messiah!"
Rather, his argument is, "Don't let your studies undermine your faith in Messiah. It's happened to many people, including myself; don't let it happen to you."
I am new to the "messy" anic movement. I heard someone have this same conversation yesterday. Thank you (and my brother who taught the same thing yesterday) for warning of the bumps in the road up ahead that one might encounter.
ReplyDeleteBlessings!
I've struggled with these issues myself. One BIG problem we seem to have is the lack of Yiddishkeit in many of our services. We water it down for the goyim in our midst. Thus, many congregations have more goyim than Jews, but still try to call it a synagogue.
ReplyDeleteI visited one havurah for erev shabbat. We lit candles, sang 3 Shabbat songs, and from then on it was a Xian Bible study. Those who came 10 minutes late missed the Jewish part.
If we claim to be authentically Jewish, then we need to genuinely embrace the Messiah of Judaism, not Xianity draped in a tallis.
The problem is not reading too many Jewish sources, for that is what we should be doing. The problem is having a movement that falls short of what it purports to be.
"The problem is having a movement that falls short of what it purports to be."
ReplyDeleteAnd that, in part, draws many people away seeking authenticity. Once they found what they think is "authentic", they are a lot more receptive to whatever their new teachers have to say, on ALL matters pertaining to spirituality (including and especially Yeshua).
Also, it should be remembered that the dynamics of Gentiles being drawn to Judaism vs born-Jews being drawn to Judaism are completely different, as are the chances of both groups leaving Yeshua behind. From my experience, those lacking Jewish identity or those who are not Jewish halachically are far more likely to leave Yeshua behind once embracing and immersing themselves into Judaism (especially those Gentile "messianics" who are seeking or have undergone conversions - and I personally met not a few), because their whole new identity now depends on the approval of their new teachers.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing my post. I wish I had as many comments on this post :-)
I think everyone that has posted has the idea down that I was trying to present. The last post of Gene is part is true when he says:
From my experience, those lacking Jewish identity or those who are not Jewish halachically are far more likely to leave Yeshua behind once embracing and immersing themselves into Judaism (especially those Gentile "messianics" who are seeking or have undergone conversions - and I personally met not a few), because their whole new identity now depends on the approval of their new teachers.
I would agree that many Gentiles have an issue with learning Judaism from Messianic sources because there are very few sources that really uphold a strong Judaism with spirit and understanding. They are not being taught is my experience. Most of the Messianics wave an Israeli flag and revel in Jewishness, but lack serious lifestyle and Torah keeping. That is part of the problem that I have seen. When it comes down to it, it is our fault as the Jews of the movement to step up and walk the walk instead of being a mildly observant, Zionist, Jew that really goes against what Judaism teaches. ( I guess that is a whole other topic, but you get the point.)
Nevertheless, it is true that it is the case that most of the "ship jumpers" are Gentiles, but I know several Jews that don't admit to believing in Yeshua because of what I mentioned above. We stand on a fence and try to stay there between Christianity and Judaism, when it does nothing but breed confusion to those who want to learn about Yeshua. The men and women who stay in the traditional Jewish community stay there for a good reason, which I can completely identify with. The Yeshua they love is not the Yeshua being proclaimed by the ones who claim him.
Perhaps we should talk less and act more?
Shalom and thanks... David
"We stand on a fence and try to stay there between Christianity and Judaism, when it does nothing but breed confusion to those who want to learn about Yeshua."
ReplyDeleteHi David... can you go a bit into detail on what you meant by above and then what do you propose as a possible solution?
"The Yeshua they love is not the Yeshua being proclaimed by the ones who claim him."
Same for above. Can you elaborate?
Thanks!
From my experience, those lacking Jewish identity or those who are not Jewish halachically are far more likely to leave Yeshua behind once embracing and immersing themselves into Judaism (especially those Gentile "messianics" who are seeking or have undergone conversions - and I personally met not a few), because their whole new identity now depends on the approval of their new teachers.
ReplyDeleteI think part of the problem is that non-Jews think they have to become a part of a Judaism in order to become a disciple of the Jewish Messiah. Nothing a non-Jew does, short of formal conversion, will make him or her a Jew. That doesn't mean you can't worship the Messiah in a completely acceptable covenant manner. After all, Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and did not require (see Galatians) Gentile conversion to Judaism as a pre-requisite for belonging and becoming adopted children of God.
Once you get past that, it's a little easier to connect to the writings of the Jewish sages and to attach that knowledge to the teachings of the Messiah and the Apostles without going "overboard", so to speak. For me, the answer was putting some distance between myself and the "Messianic" practice, at least in formal worship. I'm still reinventing myself, but I don't think I have to be Jewish or to "imitate" all of the outward Jewish practices to be a valid disciple of the "Word who became flesh and dwelt among us".
If the Messiah lived, died, and was resurrected for the sake of the nations of the world (i.e. everyone who isn't Jewish), then why can't I, as a non-Jew, accept him at that level and have it be "OK"?
I'm not sure authenticity is the real matter here.
ReplyDeleteDavid, you and I have both attended Beth Immanuel congregation in Hudson. That is perhaps the most strict observant and perhaps true-Judaism of all Messianic congregations I've seen, and yet, a number of families have, while attending BI, abandoned Yeshua or denied him in some way. This includes both gentiles and Jews.
This leads me to believe true-Judaism authenticity is not the problem.
"David, you and I have both attended Beth Immanuel congregation in Hudson."
ReplyDeleteHmm, was it not a One-Law congregation at one point? How "most true-Judaism" could it have possibly been?
You should visit there sometime, Gene.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the best way to describe Beth Immanuel is: very strict in their observance (they will pre-tear toilet paper squares prior to shabbat, to give you an idea), studious, traditional, Judaism as an "essential point of reference." Everyone dresses modestly, everyone wears a head covering. (And yes, this was a One Law congregation.)
And since BI has existed both as a One Law congregation and a Divine Invitation congregation, we can't really point to either as the cause of abandoning Yeshua.
We can, however, point to Beth Immanuel and say, "Here's a strictly observant, Judaism-honoring Messianic congregation, and it has perhaps the greatest numbers of people abandoning Yeshua."
This leads me to believe the problem isn't that our congregations need more Judaism. It might be the opposite. (Heresy, I know!)
"And since BI has existed both as a One Law congregation and a Divine Invitation congregation, we can't really point to either as the cause of abandoning Yeshua."
ReplyDeleteI believe that both One Law and Divine Invitation facilitated abandonment of Yeshua by One-Law Gentiles. Regardless, neither OL nor DI constitute "authentic Judaism" nor are they promoted by any Messianic Jewish body. BI itself is not an authentic Jewish congregation nor does it even bill itself as such, but rather a Sabbath Fellowship (which is fine). Therefore it is not a very good example to make a case for JEWS leaving Yeshua by drawing closer to Judaism, but a perfect one to make for One-Law Gentiles.
A much more Jewish example would have been R. Stuart Dauermann's congregation (I think Joshua Brumbach has took over that one recently) - I wonder about their rate of apostasy from Yeshua among their Jewish members (maybe Joshua can comment on that).
Gene, so much opinion on a congregation you've never attended!
ReplyDeleteI'd be curious to hear David's take on Beth Immanuel.
"Gene, so much opinion on a congregation you've never attended!"
ReplyDeleteMy opinion on them so far has been very limited and not "so much" - but, since you went there yourself, perhaps you can tell me where I got it wrong. That said, even without having visited them in person, I do know quite a bit about BI and their history. I also have personally met and talked face-to-face to a number of their members and teachers. So, I am not talking out of ignorance here. There were, until recently, the foremost One-Law congregation in existence.
Sometimes the reason people leave Yeshua is not the reason they say they leave for.
ReplyDeleteI get discouraged about the messy-antics, but having served on the board of a conservative synagogue, I know they have their own messi-antics without Yeshua.
Some people want so badly to be accepted by the Jewish community as genuine, that they will even turn from Yeshua to gain that acceptance. The problem is not with Judaism, but with the people's own unspoken desires.
Gene, (and everyone else)
ReplyDeleteGene said, "can you go a bit into detail on what you meant by above and then what do you propose as a possible solution?'
Well, most Messianic (including myself) are inevitably stuck between to worlds. Most live in one or the other for most part but still have a foot in one side or the other due lifestyle and/or theology...heck just believing in Yeshua puts you in the "christian" corner and keeping a version of Torah puts you in the Jewish corner. Do I have suggestions? Yes, but I don't think they would be accepted by most Messianics. I do think the established Messianic organizations are doing their best and it is probably the right thing to do right now.
As for my statement:
The Yeshua they love is not the Yeshua being proclaimed by the ones who claim him."
Well, as for me and many Jews who don't really identify with Messianic Judaism today, I would say a facade is not reality. Messianic Judaism (not all) as a majority, practices what I have heard as "Torah light." It tastes great... less fulfilling for people who wish to keep Torah as our people keep Torah. I mean in an orthodox way. I find my experience with Messianics proclaim Yeshua, but the one we read and study about seems to say to keep Torah as it is interpreted by the sages. So when we lighten it up so that it is more palatable (driving to shul, using electricity, playing instruments, being egalitarian, etc.) it looses much of what traditional Jews love about being Jewish.
Does that make sense? I think I rambled
Judah and Gene,
ReplyDeleteYour statement about non Jews abandoning Yeshua is a bit skewed. I have been in intimate contact withe Beth Immanuel and its people for years (5 or more) and in my experience there is only one family that has denied Yeshua as Messiah. There was a Jewish family that left, but both instances were due to prior issues on a personal level. I personally know both families and both have major issues.
As a matter of fact most families are very strong believers and some of the most well rounded and understanding people of faith I have found. They are lead by a very diverse eldership that really loves them.
As for the strictness... well that is because they see it as a biblical mandate to keep the Torah. The OL and DI are really distractions if you ask me. It has not really effected the direction of BI for the most part, but has given a place to express a viewpoint of theology and ecclesiology (is that a word? if it isn't I am coining it!)
So with all that said, the Jewishness of Beth Immanuel has actually strengthened the members there and if they can't handle, they go to a more liberal congregation (which is more of an issue at BI) I agree with Dr. Schiffman when he said,
"The problem is not with Judaism, but with the people's own unspoken desires."
Ok enough writing for now. Shalom
They are not being taught is my experience. Most of the Messianics wave an Israeli flag and revel in Jewishness, but lack serious lifestyle and Torah keeping.
ReplyDelete@דוד (always good to read you brother),
You are quite right. Sadly, it is not just the gentilish Messianics. Some of the worse "offenders" are the Jewish "Baptists with Talitot."
If you ever get a chance to come back to North Carolina, we would love to see you at Bella Torah Congregation. We are observant, and don't mix (if it isn't in the Siddur, it isn't part of what we do as a congregation).
Wisdom as always from Dr. Schiffman.
ReplyDelete@ Rick,
ReplyDeleteThanks you sir. I will definitely look you up if I am that way.
Judah, good post, it is much needed! The reason I believe places and groups like "Worst Fruits of Zion" (ffoz) and Beth Immanuel eventually lead people away from Messiah is that they serve a well mixed platter of truth and lies. So well mixed with the traditions of men/judaism that it appears seductive to the unsuspecting. Both of these groups teach that the only observance of Torah is that prescribed by pharisaic judaism, and that the oral torah is on the same level as the Torah and Brit Chadesha! Attending there is like playing in a pit of vipers, eventually you will get bit! Also it is important to note that modern day judaism directly stems from first century pharisee-ism. Think of what Messiah said about the pharisees and it applies to wfoz & bi!
ReplyDeleteAlso it is important to note that Judah and myself have experienced close relatives, and friends get bit by the wfoz snake, and see there walk with the Messiah decline and eventually the deny the Messiah altogether! It's funny how the "coldness" of there walk increases with direct correlation to the decreasing views of the Messiah! This is not a work of YHWH but rather a pit of man!
ReplyDeleteJesse... a fine example of classic Christian antisemitism mixed with pseudo-Torah "observance".
ReplyDeleteAmein Gene!
ReplyDeleteJesse, You obviously didn't understand the post (which I wrote) or my response to some of the misunderstandings of Beth Immanuel. Sir you speak Lashon HaRa and have misrepresented Yeshua and His people.
I think Jesse is reacting to something that both he and I have observed: we've seen several folks, including some family, involved in FFOZ and Beth Immanuel, and those people end up either denying Yeshua or shirking his status as the divine Son of G-d.
ReplyDeleteWhy is that?
David's original post suggests that some people study themselves out of belief in Yeshua, as he becomes the stone of stumbling for a "true" Judaic theology.
I think this might be what's happened to some folks at BI, and some involved with FFOZ.
A second reason might be, as Dr. Schiffman said, the desire to be accepted by the Jewish world, even if it means denying Yeshua. I call that the Messianic Inferiority Complex.
"we've seen several folks"
ReplyDeleteJudah, I've seen Christians, non-Jews AND those who were born Jewish and not "messianic", people I knew personally and had been friends with, fall away from Yeshua while being in a church practicing Christianity with no Judaism in sight. Why is that? Whose approval were they seeking?
"A second reason might be, as Dr. Schiffman said, the desire to be accepted by the Jewish world, even if it means denying Yeshua. I call that the Messianic Inferiority Complex."
I am a Jew who is already part of the Jewish world. It's not me vs the Jewish world, it's not ME vs THEM, it's not ME vs "them the Jews". Now, it's true that many Gentiles today indeed have the "inferiority complex" being not Jewish.
You're implying that apostasy rates inside the Messianic movement are no different than anywhere else. If that were the case, David would have no need to write the post he did.
ReplyDelete>> "But Judah, I am a Jew who is already part of the Jewish world"
I didn't say 'part of', I said 'accepted by'. Generally, Messianics are not accepted by the Jewish world. The Jewish world rejects Yeshua's Messiahship, so if you're a follower of his, you're not accepted. (I'm speaking in generalities.)
For some people, this non-acceptance is so great a problem that, as Dr. Schiffman says, it can lead them to deny our Master in order to gain that acceptance.
For you, Gene, that's not a problem. Praise G-d.
"We should exercise all diligence in our studies and be able to navigate the most complicated text and theological difficulties, but we should do this remembering that we came to this place of revelation and intellectual hunger on the merit and stripes of our King Yeshua. We must keep our face as flint in opposition to the anti Yeshua beliefs of scholarship and humanism through the love we hold for him and what he has done for us."
ReplyDeleteDavid, thank you for this piece. So encouraging to me.
Jesse said:
ReplyDeleteJudah, good post, it is much needed! The reason I believe places and groups like "Worst Fruits of Zion" (ffoz) and Beth Immanuel eventually lead people away from Messiah is that they serve a well mixed platter of truth and lies. So well mixed with the traditions of men/judaism that it appears seductive to the unsuspecting. Both of these groups teach that the only observance of Torah is that prescribed by pharisaic judaism, and that the oral torah is on the same level as the Torah and Brit Chadesha! Attending there is like playing in a pit of vipers, eventually you will get bit! Also it is important to note that modern day judaism directly stems from first century pharisee-ism. Think of what Messiah said about the pharisees and it applies to wfoz & bi!
I don't know from Beth Immanuel, but having reviewed quite a few of FFOZ's recent publications, I believe you are completely misunderstanding their message.
First off, there's nothing in FFOZ's publications that encourages believers to abandon the Jewish Messiah and pursue "pharisaic judaism" (I think that's supposed to be a slam against the Talmud, but it's hard to tell). Lancaster's recent book about Galatians, which I recently reviewed on my blog, is certainly from a Messianic point of view and certainly encourages discipleship of Jews and non-Jews under the Jewish Messiah. Promoting Yeshua is at the forefront of most of their publications.
Personally, I don't see an inconsistency between learning and studying the Talmudic and Chasidic writings and Messianic discipleship (i.e. Christianity). My current blog (my name is a link to the blog..just click it) frequently incorporates my understanding of these writings and my faith in Christ and I think studying the sages actually enhances my knowledge of the Messiah.
I no longer consider myself "Messianic" for too many reasons to list here, but I consider looking at the Messiah through a Jewish lens essential in order to come to an understanding of his life, death, resurrection, and teachings. My perception of the Master and of God would be much dimmer without a basic exposure to the Torah, Talmud, and the "Chasidic tales".
I don't believe FFOZ is lying to anyone. I think the best (or worst) you could say under the circumstances, is that they have taken a theological position with which you disagree, Jesse. Nothing I've read that they've published has suggested to me in the slightest that I should abandon my faith in Messiah.
James,
ReplyDeleteNobody's suggesting FFOZ or Beth Immanuel or any other Messianic org is deliberately trying to lead people away from Messiah.
The question is, why are there a number of people that have abandoned Yeshua after being involved with FFOZ or Beth Immanuel? (And yes, both Jews and gentiles, and yes, I can name names.)
Circling back to the author's post, some people study themselves out of belief in Yeshua. Perhaps that is one explanation for those folks who, after being involved with FFOZ or Beth Immanuel, abandon the Master. It may be more prevalent among that group because of its focus on intellectual study. Is it possible to study yourself out of belief in Yeshua?
As David said, 'study is a great attribute in our spiritual journey, but how far should we let it go? Can we study so much that we downplay essential aspects of our faith in Hashem and our belief in the Master? Are we giving ourselves an outlet for sin and rationalizing it until Yeshua becomes a mere by-word to help keep us comfortable in the fact that we haven't denied him totally? Should scholarship undermine experience?'
Truth be told, James, I've been praying that doesn't happen to you; now that you have no fellowship with other believers, and being married to a woman who has already denied Yeshua, and you're attending a Chabad synagogue - isn't the same possible for you, isn't it possible you'll study yourself out of belief in Yeshua?
Jesse,
ReplyDeleteI hope that my straight forward comment is not taken wrong. I just hate this kind of thing and I now that I realize you have personal ties to BI, then I understand your position much better. (Especially if you THE Jessie C that I know.)
Even if you are not, BI has done more good than bad, and it seems your bad experience helps paint a broad brush stroke that is not really true for the majority of the people and families that have attended and still attend the there.
As for FFOZ, that have done a lot for the people of Yeshua. They may not line up with your ideals or theology, but overall they are striving to equip the body of Messiah which is more than I can say for many Messianic organizations. (FYI, I don't agree with FFOZ's stances on many things) I am particularliy impressed with their translations of Levertoff, Lichtenstein, and other classic sources. They are true to Messiah in all their dealings and try to tow a very tight line.
Shalom in Messiah
Nobody's suggesting FFOZ or Beth Immanuel or any other Messianic org is deliberately trying to lead people away from Messiah.
ReplyDeleteJesse did say "The reason I believe places and groups like "Worst Fruits of Zion" (ffoz) and Beth Immanuel eventually lead people away from Messiah is that they serve a well mixed platter of truth and lies", which seems to indicate that he believes there's deliberate intent. Maybe Jesse just poorly worded his statement, but I can't know for sure.
Circling back to the author's post, some people study themselves out of belief in Yeshua. Perhaps that is one explanation for those folks who, after being involved with FFOZ or Beth Immanuel, abandon the Master. It may be more prevalent among that group because of its focus on intellectual study. Is it possible to study yourself out of belief in Yeshua?
I wonder if the real question is, "why do people convert to Judaism?" Not everyone who converts (probably not even most of the people who convert) to Judaism has been involved in the Messianic movement. Maybe what attracts some Christians to MJ is what would have attracted them to Judaism anyway and MJ is just a stepping stone. I know one woman who used to worship at our local MJ congregation. Her husband is Jewish and she was a goy. Eventually, she left us because she wanted to worship with her husband (I know..sounds familiar), who had started going to the Chabad (he was never Messianic or Christian). After a number of years of being involved with both the Chabad and Reform shuls, she converted.
It's possible that the reason some people convert is because they have a Jewish spouse and they want to share their faith life with them. Others may convert because they find a special beauty and order in Judaism, at least in principle. It may not be all MJ's fault, Beth Immanuel's fault, or FFOZ's fault.
Truth be told, James, I've been praying that doesn't happen to you; now that you have no fellowship with other believers, and being married to a woman who has already denied Yeshua, and you're attending a Chabad synagogue - isn't the same possible for you, isn't it possible you'll study yourself out of belief in Yeshua?
I appreciate your concern, Judah. Really.
I'm not currently attending the Chabad. Just because I no longer attend my local MJ/OL congregation, doesn't mean there's an automatic green light for me to join her when she attends classes and synagogue. She has to feel comfortable with me entering that part of her world, and I'm going to give her the space she needs. At this point, it's up to her and God.
Could I study myself out of my faith in the Jewish Messiah? Anything is possible and I'm not going to make any grand pronouncements one way or the other. I can say that I find a lot of agreement and parallels between my studies and the teachings of the Messiah. I find him more often in the Talmud or in a Chasidic story than I do in the standard Christian texts. I feel as if the Messiah is whitewashed and packaged in plain, white butcher paper when I read Christian commentaries. It's as if he has no dimension..like a piece of cardboard.
In the writings of the sages, I see depth of substance and a dynamic texture and when applied to the Messiah, he finally comes to life as Rabbi, Master, Messiah, and King. Where that will ultimately lead me, I can't say, but you're more than welcome to follow along on my "adventure" and to put your 2 cents in if you think I'm going astray.
@David,
ReplyDeleteThe Jesse C that you know is not the Jesse that commented here. (However, both Jesse's have attended BI, I know both of them. :-))
Jesse C is an acquaintance. I share many views with him, particularly on FFOZ and BI. He attended the Shavuot gathering we had a few weeks ago, and we spoke a good while on all the things we're discussing here. He's a good guy, I really feel for him with his family situation.
@James,
ReplyDeleteI'm not telling you to shy away from those texts, and neither is David.
I'm asking you to remember that you came to this place of revelation and intellectual hunger on the merit and stripes of our King Yeshua.
Any fool can see that a life without fellowship among believers is not healthy. Your wife denied Yeshua some years ago, you recently left your position of leadership at your congregation, you've abandoned your congregation altogether, and now don't call yourself Messianic. And when asked whether you are studying yourself out of Yeshua, you said you'll make no grand pronouncement either way?
My God, James.
Where will this lead? Denial of the One who brought you here? I'm asking this as a friend. Please, look at what you're doing.
Judah, before you start telling James what he's doing wrong, look at yourself! Set against Christianity, set against Judaism, set against Messianic Judaism, set against FFOZ (organization that respects both Judaism, Messianic Judaism AND works to counteract centuries of Christian anti-Judaism and anti-semitism). Part of your own comfy tiny little click.
ReplyDeleteListen to yourself, man! Everybody is wrong, everybody on the wrong path, but you! Something is wrong here...
Gene, I love ya, buddy. :-) If I abandoned my congregation, left my position of leadership, stopped fellowshiping with other believers, I hope you'd call me on that, too, and that you'd tell me to remember my first love, Yeshua, the one who took my sins on his back, my Savior.
ReplyDeleteBlessings, buddy.
"If I abandoned my congregation, left my position of leadership"
ReplyDeleteJudah, James has come to a realization that the One-Law Judaizing Theology is contradictory to what Yeshua and apostles taught and very harmful to the Body of Messiah. Many believers fully agree with that.
He tried to teach that much to his fellow congregants, but that would have meant going against the leadership and sowing discord. Sticking to his conviction, he has made, what I believe, a very right and honorable decision, respectful of the wishes and the direction of his former community. What's more, if you have been following him at any length, he has transitioning out of his congregation for many months now and fully prepared the congregation for his departure.
That's kind, fair, thoughtful, caring... and FAR... FAAAR from what constitutes an "abandonment". Thousands of believers and leaders move on to greener pastures every day, sometimes because their convictions no longer allow them to remain where they are. They transition unto whatever else G-d has prepared for them.
"stopped fellowshiping with other believers"
Well, my idea of fellowshipping among believers goes well beyond singing worship songs together or listening together to what the pastor/rabbi preaches on today. Has James stopped associating with other believers? How can you make this determination from your vantage point? Besides, most believers nowadays (including yourself), for better or worse, spend more times together on online, be it on FB and blogs, than being physically present next to each other. I am sure, though, that James will keep up and seek out face-to-face fellowship as well.
Blogs are not a substitute for fellowship. Most of the stuff that goes on in the blogs is discouraging, fighting and nitpicking and religious battles over subjective theology.
ReplyDeleteI mean, your last post was just another example of that.
I've said my peace to James. James, I hope you take it to heart, buddy. I'm continually bringing you up before God in prayer.
Thanks for all the input Judah and Gene.
ReplyDeleteAs I mentioned before Judah, I appreciate all of your concern and I realize I'm walking something of a tightrope here, but a couple of things you've said kind of bother me.
I haven't "abandoned" my congregation. You make it sound like I deserted a four-year old child in the middle of the forest and just walked away, leaving the poor kid to be raised by wolves, or something. I made arrangements so that every function I performed was taken up by another individual or group within the congregation. These people aren't children, and there's a board of directors that is in leadership, not just little ol' me. The previous congregational leader also moved on after a time, in his case, moving to another state and eventually getting married, which is when I picked up the responsibility for the congregation. Change happens.
Not all people in a teaching or leadership position stay in that position forever. I took on the responsibility because the opportunity presented itself and I was the most likely candidate to fill the role, but as time passed, another path presented itself. As Gene said, my decision (I don't want to rehash the whole thing..you've read all of my blogs for the past year) was designed to be a responsible one and was hardly casual or ill-considered. I had both ethical and personal reasons for resigning, as you well know.
Also, while my wife was formerly Christian and then Messianic, she's made a personal decision to embrace her Judaism. I won't say that it doesn't bother me that she's no longer a believer in Yeshua, but what would you suggest...that I just order her to return to the fold or take up a separate residence until she "sees the light"?
Although it grieves me that she no longer has faith in Yeshua, in an odd sort of way, I'm also proud of her for having the courage to enter the Jewish world and embrace the Jewish community. She wasn't raised a Jew and it was difficult for her to overcome a sense of intimidation and fears of rejection to become integrated into Judaism. And after all, it's not like we're the only intermarried couple on earth. As I recall, Moses was intermarried and he turned out OK.
When I said I didn't want to make any big pronouncements about my faith in Yeshua, I didn't mean I was wishy-washy. I just want to avoid sounding like I'm swearing some sort of "big deal" oath of fealty. My choice of words was a poor attempt on my part to let my "yes" be "yes" and my "no" be "no". I can't abandon my faith and trust in the Master because he has never abandoned me.
The question of community bothers me, but for now, I have to put that concern aside and wait to see what happens next. If push comes to shove, for the sake of the need of fellowship, I may end up having to turn to a church group, but I want to see if God will open the door into a community of faith I can actually share with my wife. Is that so wrong?
Judah, you have the luxury of sharing a single faith with your wife, but what if you didn't? What if your wife was Jewish and you weren't? What if she absolutely *needed* to be a part of a community of Jews and everything that means, including separating from Yeshua? Over the long haul, what would you do?
Life's decisions aren't always so easy. I know I'm not perfect, but give me credit for trying to do the best I can.
Here is one of the main issues I have with wfoz, and this is directly from the horses mouth "the only way to be Torah observant is to follow the rabbis interpretation, any thing else is raping the Torah" also "the talmud is on the same level as the Brit Chadesha" these statements are heresy by Yeshua's standard! But as most of you embrace the worthless traditions of men, I dont expect you to see the fault or why wfoz & bi are infusing lies with truth and misleading many astray!
ReplyDeleteIt seems like a lot of the issue over what does FFOZ & BI teach with respect to people deserting Messiah has been discussed like blind men describing an elephant:
ReplyDeletehttp://wordinfo.info/Blind-Men-and-Elephant-crop.html
All truths, but not the whole truth. Mainline Christians will affirm they are Bible-believing... yet their teaching, practices, and traditions include those of Greco-Roman paganism. Those of rabbinic Judaism affirm they believe the TaNaKh... yet their teaching, practices, and traditions include those of the oral law (some of which transgress the divine "written" Instructions).
Generally, it appears that the stated and published professions of FFOZ & BI are scripturally based (a few of their interpretations which border on exceptions may be found). OK, but there are other influences which detract from the Gospel of the Messiah - imho (and my experience at FFOZ's 'Pray in the Spirit' conference in the Poconos a few years ago), they prefer rabbinic Halacha to the basic Torah vis-à-vis Matthew 11:28-30.
Yak
Yak, I agree. Also James, Gene, and Jewish Carp. I realize the original post, what im saying is that there is more to it than just "scholastically" studying yourself out of Yeshua, it's the pharisaic stuff intermixed with the truth that causes people at wfoz & bi to stumble... It is not intentional just a side effect of following traditions of men and not יהוה
ReplyDeleteThose Gentiles/Christians who think that they can "observe" Torah by eschewing historic Jewish interpretation of what it means to observe Torah are:
ReplyDelete1) both delusional in thinking they are not following THEIR OWN interpretation while deriding the Jewish one and disturbingly arrogant toward Jews to whom the Torah was given as an inheritance,
and
2) willfully ignore Yeshua's own acknowledgment of authority of Jewish leaders (specifically, Pharisees that folks like Jesse love to hate) to establish norms of Torah observance (Matthew 23:2-3).
Pre-torn tp is a luxury, a Sabbath delight! Albeit not Commanded. 'Been there, done that. (Try it, you may like it.)
ReplyDeleteYak
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ReplyDelete@ Gene,
ReplyDeleteMat 3:7 But when Yochanan saw many of the PHARISEES and Tz'dukim coming to be immersed by him, he said to them, "You snakes! Who warned you to escape the coming punishment?
Mat 15:12-14 The talmidim came to him and said, "Do you know that the PHARISEES were offended by what you said?" He replied, "Every plant that my Father in heaven has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Let them be. They are blind guides. When a blind man guides another blind man, both will fall in a pit."
So they are not from YHWH and they will be uprooted... Good luck gene!
Mat 16:11 How can you possibly think I was talking to you about bread? Guard yourselves from the hametz of the PHARISEES and SADDUCEES!" ~ Yeshua
ReplyDeleteMat 16:12 Then they understood — they were to guard themselves not from yeast for bread but from the teaching of the PHARISEES and SADDUCEES
"So they are not from YHWH and they will be uprooted... Good luck gene!"
ReplyDeleteJesse... you are a very confused person (and I say it with all due respect). In NT it also says in John 8:31-44 that Yeshua told the "Jews" that "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires."
Antisemities who historically read the above words didn't distinguish between the few "Jews" Yeshua spoke to (and he spoke to Jews, not Gentiles, 99.99% of the time) - to them every Jew's father is "the devil" and so is every Jew himself.
Same with you - every Pharisee/Jew is the devil with you. You have not progressed very far from the Christian attitude toward Jews of the last 2K years, Jesse. Who is, I ask, is following the "traditions of men" here if not you?
"My brothers, I AM a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee." (Paul / Acts 23:6)
Here is one of the main issues I have with wfoz, and this is directly from the horses mouth "the only way to be Torah observant is to follow the rabbis interpretation, any thing else is raping the Torah" also "the talmud is on the same level as the Brit Chadesha" these statements are heresy by Yeshua's standard! But as most of you embrace the worthless traditions of men, I dont expect you to see the fault or why wfoz & bi are infusing lies with truth and misleading many astray!
ReplyDeleteNot addressing FFOZ or BI for the moment, I have to agree with Gene that it's not really possible to "obey the Torah" based solely on the written document. One of the examples of this often used is the commandment to wear tzitzit on the four corners of your garment (Deut. 22:12), however the written Torah doesn't describe *how* to tie the fringes. The accepted styles of tying the knots are based in various traditions. If we conclude that we don't require those traditions, we can then select our own, perhaps using square knots or slip knots and using a pink instead of a blue thread, and so on. Is what we make up for ourselves superior to the established authorities on the matter?
Of course, there are different applications of halacha as seen in how Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Jews approach the same commandments with different (but often overlapping) responses, so we can't really say there is one, overriding, absolute way to respond to the commandments. We choose which tradition to follow, often as a matter of conscience, but sometimes just because one tradition seems to "fit" us more than the others. We won't have more than an approximate understanding of our responsibilities until the coming of the Messiah.
Another good example of Torah and Talmud interaction is from Deut. 12:21 where the kosher slaughter of animals is commanded, but the method of how to perform a kosher slaughter isn't described (however, you'll find it in tractate Chullin. If you choose to ignore the commandment and its interpretation, then buying hamburger at the local supermarket will suffice.
Oh, and while Rabbinic authority and judgment is binding, it is not consider equal to or being able to override the Torah which, for our purposes, is all of the Bible, including the New Testament.
For today's "morning meditation", I blogged on this issue (sorry for the link, Judah), but not particularly in relation to "leaving the faith" or "overstudying". I know this comment is long, but having blogged about this prevents it from being longer.
It's all very complex and I think a lot of our prejudice against the Talmud is more cultural than theological. The Christian mindset (and most of us come from a Christian background) sees the Bible as a self-contained unit that is wholly and completely interpreted by us as individuals through the power of the Holy Spirit. That, unfortunately, allows us to introduce our personalities and biases into what we see in the Bible (we probably do this to one degree or another anyway) rather than seeking an external source upon which to test our interpretations and assumptions.
In the end, we all make choices, including those people who choose to leave Yeshua for the sake of other priorities. While it's convenient to point fingers at FFOZ, BI, or other external entities, we aren't talking about duping 4-year-olds into believing in Santa Claus. We're all adults here and for good or for ill, we are all responsible for our own actions.
Jesse... what is the "yeast of the Pharisees"? Do you even know? You think it's "rabbinic" stuff? You think it's "Pharisaic" interpretation of Torah observances?
ReplyDelete(Luke 12:1) "Yeshua began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, WHICH IS HYPOCRISY."
Did you catch that? HYPOCRISY IS THE YEAST - Yeshua's "beef" with the teachers of the day was the fact that they taught one thing but didn't obey it themselves!
I understand that Gene, I love Jews (I also am Jewish by birth) but I hate the mixing of traditions of men that wfoz and bi try to do! I realize Yeshua hated the hypocrisy, and what Yeshua came against then is now again prevalent in orthodox judaism and even in the Messianic Movement in places such as wfoz and bi. Modern day judaism and what wfoz and bi teach directly stems from first century pharisee-ism! ITS THE SAME HYPOCRISY!
ReplyDeleteI understand that Gene, I love Jews (I also am Jewish by birth) but I hate the mixing of traditions of men that wfoz and bi try to do! I realize Yeshua hated the hypocrisy, and what Yeshua came against then is now again prevalent in orthodox judaism and even in the Messianic Movement in places such as wfoz and bi. Modern day judaism and what wfoz and bi teach directly stems from first century pharisee-ism! ITS THE SAME HYPOCRISY!
ReplyDelete@Jesse: I guess you didn't stop to read what I'd written and to consider a point of view other than your own. Judah says you're a "good guy" and I'll take him at his word, but you seem to only pay attention to you own point of view, without entertaining the possibility that there are other ways of looking at this issue. You seem angry about this issue which may mean that you've also been hurt. I feel compassion for you if you are responding to your pain, but I think it would help if you could quit "demonizing" external sources for a few minutes and take a look at the points I, Gene, and others have been trying to make.
@Gene: I know you have been considering writing a blog post about Yeshua and halalac (spelling?) observance. I mentioned the idea in passing in my blog for today and would love to see you publish your thoughts and findings.
"I know you have been considering writing a blog post about Yeshua and halalac (spelling?) observance. I mentioned the idea in passing in my blog for today and would love to see you publish your thoughts and findings."
ReplyDeleteJames, I have gathered the supporting material and have a basic outline in my head, just a matter of completing this. I've dreaded writing it because I want to do a good job that the subject matter deserves.
OK, it will be my very NEXT post, no excuses.
>> Rabbinic authority and judgment is binding [on Yeshua's disciples]
ReplyDeleteThen you are bound to deny Yeshua, since rabbinic authority condemned him to death as a false-messiah apostate and sourcerer. (Sanhedrin 43a and 67b, uncensored editions)
"Then you are bound to deny Yeshua, since rabbinic authority condemned him to death as a false-messiah apostate and sourcerer. (Sanhedrin 43a and 67b, uncensored editions)"
ReplyDeleteJudah, wow, talk about using James' words out of context...
You separate the Jewish leaders from the Jewish people as if they are not an integral part of it! You deny their legitimacy just as antisemites deny the whole of Jewish people legitimacy. Don't you see what you are doing?
Jews as a people have [temporarily] rejected Yeshua as Messiah. Does it mean that Jews are no longer G-d's People and no longer have any G-d given authority or say in Jewish life (to extend your rejection of "rabbinic authority" unto the whole nation)? Well, Replacement Theology fully agrees with you, then.
Gene, do you believe that when Yeshua said, "All that the Pharisees tell you, do", he meant that even if the Pharisees tell us to reject Yeshua, we should do it?
ReplyDeleteBecause, centuries after Yeshua, some sages did just that.
Let's be practical here. There are some rulings of the sages that we cannot follow, because our Master overrides *some* of their traditions.
Ask yourself why Messiah rejected some of their traditions. When you understand that, you'll understand why I reject some of the sages' traditions.
'Gene, do you believe that when Yeshua said, "All that the Pharisees tell you, do", he meant that even if the Pharisees tell us to reject Yeshua, we should do it?"
ReplyDeleteJudah, of course not (is it not obvious that Yeshua wouldn't deny himself?).
But, your reasoning fails because you have drawn a straw-man analogy and you may not have even noticed it. It fails because you have extended the command to obey in observance to a command to believe in whatever someone tells you.
Did Yeshua teach his disciples that WHATEVER and in WHOEVER scribes and Pharisees tell them to BELIEVE one should also believe, or especially whatever attitude some scribes and Pharisees had toward observance (hypocrisy) one should also have the same, OR did the Master teach specifically that whatever they tell you to DO and OBSERVE one MUST observe and do? Do you get my point?
You may not believe that going 90 MPH on a highway is dangerous (and no government can FORCE you believe otherwise), but you still observe the laws because you don't want to get a ticket and because you believe that government has G-d given authority to issue them.
The problem with that belief is, Yeshua didn't keep all the traditions of the Pharisees.
ReplyDeleteWhen you understand why Yeshua didn't keep some of the traditions, you'll understand why I don't consider the sages rulings, wise and helpful they may be, binding.
"The problem with that belief is, Yeshua didn't keep all the traditions of the Pharisees."
ReplyDeleteYou are basing your whole doctrine one the VERY few instances Yeshua is recorded not observing something WHILE rejecting his clear words to his disciples that they MUST do and observe WHATEVER Jewish leaders tell them. (not to mention halacha was not even set in stone at the time and was still in developing stages).
We read that a few times when he was a guest he didn't wash his hands - both times it's clear that he did it to make a teaching point about external vs internal righteousness. In another instance we read that SOME (specifically) of his disciples didn't wash (while others did, by extension). Can you point me to something else I may have missed? May be separation of milk and meat that Yeshua overruled or something similar?
More importantly, none of this came up in any of the accusations that were brought up against him, even thought it says that they tried to find something, ANYTHING.
I'm basing my theology on Yeshua's actions regarding not following 100% of the traditions, true.
ReplyDeleteYou're basing your theology on Yeshua's statement that his disciples should follow the Pharisees, true.
There's a compromise in here somewhere. :-)
"There's a compromise in here somewhere. :-)"
ReplyDeleteThe compromise is what if one is a Jewish believer (but preferable Messiah himself since we have his Jewish disciples swear that they observe both Torah and customs) and not in the process of trying to teach some deep spiritual lesson that would require to temporarily not observe an established Jewish custom to another Jew (and you are not breaking a Torah commandment), one is required to obey Halacha per Master's admonition and because one, being a Jew, must be obedient to Jewish authorities (as long as it doesn't require one to deny Yeshua as Messiah).
Judah said:
ReplyDeleteThen you are bound to deny Yeshua, since rabbinic authority condemned him to death as a false-messiah apostate and sourcerer. (Sanhedrin 43a and 67b, uncensored editions)
I believe my full statement was:
Oh, and while Rabbinic authority and judgment is binding, it is not consider equal to or being able to override the Torah which, for our purposes, is all of the Bible, including the New Testament.
Yes, you took my quote out of context.
To clarify, I meant that the Rabbinic rulings are binding on Jewish people, but that presupposes a community of Jews who choose to acknowledge and comply with those rulings. Certainly Reform Jews don't, at least in most ways. Even among the Orthodox, I suspect on a person by person basis, there are cases where not all of the rulings are compiled with. Human beings, regardless of their religious tradition, still have the power of choice and on some level, we all choose to accept some "bindings" and not others.
If you'll notice, I also said (above) that the Rabbinic rulings *did not* overrule the Bible (in our case, including the NT), so halacha would not undo faith in Yeshua as Messiah. We'd have to be robots to look at halacha and not take our circumstances, especially our Messianic faith, into account. It's what makes it possible for Gene to be an observant Jew and also a disciple of the Jewish Messiah.
When the sages ruled that Jesus was a false god and not the Messiah, it was because they believed what they were saying, not that they were trying to lead anyone astray. Christianity gave them no reason to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, since the Jesus of the church demanded that Jews give up Judaism in order to worship the Jewish Messiah (you know all this already). I can hardly blame them for their opinions and beliefs. I can compare those rulings to the Bible and my faith and choose to let my faith in Jesus be the deciding factor. That's what I'm doing.
In making these statements here and on my blog today, I was trying to describe a mindset and a process that most of us miss because Christian tradition "thinks" in a very different direction. As always, I'm trying to build a bridge between how we think as "Christians" (and most of MJ/OL conceptualizes the world and theology in a fundamentally Christian way) and how (and why) Jews would see Talmudic rulings and Chasidic teachings in a very different way...and that way isn't necessarily inconsistent with faith and trust in the Master, who we might consider, for the sake of argument, the "Maggid of Nazeret".
Clarity over agreement, yeah?
ReplyDeleteHere's my understanding of what James and Gene are saying:
"Rabbinic authority and judgment is binding on Yeshua's disciples, with the caveat of things like Yeshua's messiahship."
Am I hearing you clearly? :-)
@Tami,
ReplyDeleteMy name is David, my hebrew name. I go by it in e-land and blog spheres for privacy, much like many people use surnames.
My mother is Jewish and as far as I know a I from the line Aaron on her side.(My grandfather was a Kohen.
Gene said, "Those Gentiles/Christians who think that they can "observe" Torah by eschewing historic Jewish interpretation of what it means to observe Torah are delusional in thinking they are not following THEIR OWN interpretation while deriding the Jewish one and disturbingly arrogant toward Jews to whom the Torah was given as an inheritance..."
ReplyDeleteHyperbole alert.
@Gene: While I am a huge supporter of following the traditions of the Sages, can't you be nice? Even when you are correct, you make people who agree with you ashamed that we find ourselves on your side of a discussion.
""Rabbinic authority and judgment is binding on Yeshua's disciples, with the caveat of things like Yeshua's messiahship." Am I hearing you clearly? :-)"
ReplyDeleteThe simplistic answer is "yes". But before you start conjuring up images of big bad black-hatted rabbi bursting into a messianic Jewish congregation in the middle of server and start ordering people around, one should know how a contemporary Jewish community works.
First of all, one begins with a general halachic framework which most devout Jews observe regardless of the community they belong to (I am not going to get into discussion of various modern offshoots of German Reform movement and their views of Torah). Apart from general halacha that all Jews anywhere should observe set up by the sages of old, there's today no single authority to burst into a MJ synagogue or ANY synagogue for that matter and rearrange the furniture.
So, if someon is part of a specific movement (say, Chabad), those communities usually usually start with observance of general halacha, then their own customs, and finally have a top authority to which all congregations submit.
Then, depending on whether or not one is ashkenazi or sephardic, there are various differences in observance and customs. (e.g. Ashkenazi MJs should observe customs of their fathers, and sephardic ones of theirs - that's honoring one's forefathers.)
Then there are customs that depend on a specific community or synagogue. One is bound to them as long as he or she voluntary make him/herself part of that community.
If Jewish followers of Yeshua belong to a Yeshua-believing synagogue with a learned devout rabbi (I know, those are few and far between) who is qualified to arbitrate halacha, they fall under his rulings (or more appropriately a beit din) and those rulings are considered binding on them (voluntary, but they are free to leave and find another community if they disagree).
Same, BTW, the above generally applies for ALL devout Jews anywhere. But it all starts with a basic halachic framework as set up by sages.
"While I am a huge supporter of following the traditions of the Sages, can't you be nice? Even when you are correct, you make people who agree with you ashamed that we find ourselves on your side of a discussion."
ReplyDeleteRick Spurlock... that IS me being nice. You are free to ignore me (please!) if you don't like what I say or the way you think I say it.
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ReplyDeleteWow. This guy is on the mark... "
ReplyDelete@Tami, yes he is. I remember the discussions on TorahResource years ago, I always read his comments and nodded in agreement. Having met him in person I know is he ever bit the tzadik in person as he is "on the mark" online.
Glad we got some clarity on Gene and James' position.
ReplyDeleteNow, if only I wasn't an anti-rabbinic, rabid replacement theologian who separates the Jewish leadership from the Jewish world, the world would be at ease.
:wink:
Here's my understanding of what James and Gene are saying:
ReplyDelete"Rabbinic authority and judgment is binding on Yeshua's disciples, with the caveat of things like Yeshua's messiahship."
Am I hearing you clearly? :-)
Judah, the reason I write comments that are so long is it takes that amount of words to convey what I'm communicating. When you condense it down this far, it strips away all of the details that add meaning and dimension to what I'm saying.
Part of what I was saying is that the Jews who choose to put themselves under Rabbinic authority do so. Many others do not. We all make choices. If you choose to put yourself under that authority, then you live with the results. Same goes with the opposite.
"But riddle me this, Batman" (you're probably too young to get the reference I just used ;-) ), are you advocating for each individual to read and interpret the Torah under the power and authority of the Holy Spirit, and then to proceed to live out what the Spirit tells them the Torah means? If that's your only authority for interpretation, does the Spirit tell everyone the same interpretation or are there different interpretations for every individual's personality? Who do you rely on when you have a question? Who would you trust to let you know when you are wrong (and everyone can be wrong)?
To tell you the truth all of you, this type of discussion/debate is very tiring and happens ALL the time.
ReplyDeleteAre we doing this "l'shem Shamayim" or not. It doesn't seem so.
"Any machloket / dispute that is for the sake of Heaven will stand. Any machloket that is not for the sake of Heaven will not stand. What is a machloket that is for the sake of Heaven? The halachic disagreements in the Talmud between Hillel and Shammai. What is a machloket that is not for the sake of Heaven? The dispute of Korach and his cohorts." avot 5
Are we truly looking for understanding from one another/Heaven or merely trying to prove a point. It is permissible to argue like this only when we first respect the others opinion and understand it from their point of view. I realize this dialogue may be exactly for this goal, but I am not sure. Just asking for each of us to check our own motivations and heart.
I am not the Holy Spirit so it is not for me to say, but it seems each "side' says the same thing (in a different way) and the same arguments are brought in rebuttal.
You all could try the yeshiva method where the each side must prove the oppositions point. I don't know it would work in this arena thought.
Truthfully, this is a reason that some people convert too, the constant arguments and debates in the MJ movement, about things we should have a hold on. I personally get sick of it and just want to hide far away from this sort of mess.
Your Brother,
David
David,
ReplyDeleteThanks. You're right, the fighting over theology is very tiresome and discouraging.
David, I debate here (I really don't debate elsewhere, other than my own blog and one other) primarily for the folks who lurk without ever commenting but are looking for answers. It sharpens me as well, makes me think deeper. So, I do this "for the Heaven" because I want people coming from a Christian background to have a healthy perspective on Judaism and Jewish people. Sometimes I even receive "fan mail" from them. On my blog I write posts that try to accomplish the same and one of my prominently stated goals is the Jew/Gentile reconciliation.
ReplyDeleteI am fully aware that Judah and others here are unlikely to dramatically change their minds on Judaism, the relationship between Jews, Gentiles and Torah, and host of other related issues for various reasons. I am OK with that and I expect it from people deeply vested in what they believe. That said, I must say that have definitely seen much encouraging progress in this area throughout the whole loose "One-Law" community over the last year or two.
I am one of the very few MJs who engages the One-Law/Hebrew Roots community in a discussion. Yes, I have often wanted to stop and retreat into the Jewish world completely away from all the mishigas (I and my family are part of Orthodox community, full time). But I know that I can't - there's much work to be done for the Kingdom and relationships to be built on Messiah Yeshua. I try to do it in a (mostly) friendly, brotherly way, at least with those who respond in kind (a majority of those I talk to).
I have to agree with Gene on this one, David. I know it seems like we're always sniping at one another here, but these debates force me to evaluate my position, why I hold it, and how I can articulate it.
ReplyDeleteI also believe it's possible for people to disagree, even on really important topics, without personalizing conflict. That is, we can disagree and not get mad at each other.
Despite any impressions to the contrary, I really like Judah and enjoy the opportunity to debate these matters. The fact that he is willing to pray for me is very heartwarming and I suspect he actually holds me in some regard as well. We may come at many issues from different directions, but we are still both brothers in the Messiah.
Also, the nature of the blogosphere is to "let your hair down", so to speak, and give vent to opinions in ways you probably wouldn't if you were speaking to a group of people face-to-face. I suspect we'd all be a lot more "polite" if we were discussing this over a beer or cup of coffee in someone's kitchen.
I'm sure you realize all this, but I just wanted to say that, from my point of view, there are no hard feelings.
Zeh maspik! Lema'an Mashiach! Tafsif! Hey Judah and Jesse, if you'd like to come over for Erev Shabbat sometime, or actually visit our community, we'd love to have you. Last time I saw you, Judah, was at Fishman's, and I don't remember the last time I saw Jesse. I am sorry, I can't just sit idly by and watch this slander. If you'd like to talk, come over and we'll have a beer. You two should come and see what our community is really like before making such statements.
ReplyDeletePeace, Troy
Hey Troy.
ReplyDeleteI've been to Beth Immanuel numerous times; my parents did music there before you ever did! Heheh. :smile:
What Jesse, myself, and Tami are speaking of is that a number of folks have left Messiah after getting deeply involved in Judaism, usally through FFOZ and Beth Immanuel.
Why is that?
Perhaps, as the author of the post stated, it's due to some people studying themselves out of belief in Yeshua, out of faithfulness to Messiah.
By the way, Troy, I loved listening to your live music at Fishman's. And your latest album is one of the finest in the Messianic world, I hope you continue to write and perform music.
ReplyDeleteTake care, have a good shabbat everybody.
But when was the last time you were here? No offense, my sweetest friend, but your accusations are wrong. I have two words for you: textual criticism. No one is immune to it, it happens everywhere. It is not something that is taught at BI. I am humbled and honored to ba a part of such a community.
ReplyDeleteTroy
Last time I was at Beth Immanuel? I was there about a year ago, I'd say.
ReplyDeleteI'm not accusing people here, I'm just looking at results.
I have friends, some family, some acquintances who were involved with FFOZ or Beth Immanuel, and eventually walked away from Messiah. (Or belittled Messiah to something the gospels don't make him out to be.)
FFOZ and Beth Immanuel are both studious and deeply involved in Judaism. Those two things undoubtedly contribute to people walking away from Yeshua.
That doesn't mean we should not be studious. But it does mean we must be on guard to avoid the poison of the words spoken against Yeshua in the academic and Judaism worlds.
I agree. If we are accused of being studious and deeply involved in Judaism, so be it. One thing we are NOT doing is casting Yeshua aside in favor of being studious and deeply involved in Judaism. I think your original post was good enough. I am tired of the continual bashing of FFOZ and BI, or anyone else for that matter.
ReplyDeleteShabbat Shalom,
Troy
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ReplyDelete@ Troy, bi, & ffoz, You all claim (I know this firsthand)that the only way to follow the Torah is to follow rabbinic/pharisaic judaism's interpretation of Torah or your not doing it correctly! This is why you need to be rebuked! Because your pharisaic blend is leading people away from Messiah Yeshua the divine son of Elohim. This is not an opinion but what I have personally seen and experienced. This is exactly what the Master Yeshua said when he made this statement....
ReplyDeleteMat 23:14 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men; for you don’t enter in yourselves, neither do you allow those who are entering in to enter.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them.
ReplyDeleteTroy if you dont believe the only only way to follow Torah is the pharisaic/rabbinic way please correct me, otherwise let it be known that you do...
Jesse,
ReplyDeleteI have a question. How do you suppose we are to live? Are we all to do what we "feel" the bible says? I have seen what that has done and it leads to what Judges says, "and there was no king the land and everyone did what was right in their own eyes."
That just doesn't work. I have looked and looked for just what you seem to be suggesting, and it doesn't exist. As a community, we need rules and authority. That authority doesn't exist in the Christian world. Messiah is our authority, but on earth, we must agree on things. I am not suggesting Judaism is perfect, nor does it pretend to be. It is however, a much better system, with biblical principles and logic, as well as a love for Hashem and His Torah.
I follow halacha, and have not left Messiah and I know many people who do the same. Do we truly need to be rebuked for following what we see as Hashem's way of guiding His people throughout these last 2000 years. It has kept our people together and given us standards on which to live our lives in a practical manner within the Torah.
I must say, it takes some chuzpah to rebuke people. If you have it 'down' then where are you? Who are you? And who gave you the authority to interpret the prophecy? Peter says clearly it is not up to one person to interpret prophecy, and Torah is the ultimate prophecy. The people such as yourself scorn "pharisees" and reject the rabbi's, but EVERY point of Torah today that Messianic people do is of Pharisee/rabbinic interpretation from the Torah. Heck the concept of Messiah is of pharisee interpretation and is who Yeshua sided with almost 90% of the time.
I find it funny that this is an issue. Basically, if you reject the pharisees,, you reject Messiah as a whole, like the Sadducees did. Those who were told they knew not the scriptures or the power of G-d. How can you dare tell us, who try with all our hearts to follow G-d and His Son, that we are essentially sinning against Hashem for doing what we see as legitimate. We are trying our best, imperfect as we may be, to do Hashem's will. You find fault in this, I wonder why in the world you are doing this? You see dimly just as I do, yet the blind man says to the blind man to watch out for the hole in the road.
I get very sick of this type of dialogue. It is incredible that the hate we speak against the Jewish people as Messianics. What Jew would want that? I surely don't! You can have your sentiments and take them where ears may hear, but these ears hear arrogance and guile against people/organizations that are at least trying to make a difference.
I spent years with BI and FFOZ and have been hurt by them very much, but G-D FORBID I speak in such a foolish manner to pit one believer against another because of my own personal pain or even corporate pain. FFOZ is not the worst thing that has happened to our cause of Messiah and His Torah (even though I seriously disagree with them in areas). I can think of several organizations who promote anti torah sentiments and anti semantic hatred right in our own ranks that are much worse.
As for BI, I have already spoken about. I personally can't be a part of their congregation, but I know many healthy families who attend and are a part of there.
I may have written a case against TOO much unguided study in rabbinic literature, but that would go the other way too. Why do we spend our time arguing about these types of things when there are souls out there who need Hashem, who need Messiah in their lives? Why is there so much vehemence against us? Do your thing, but please leave us alone so we can focus on important matter of faith, like loving our neighbor, teaching the nations, and raising our family's in a warm traditional Jewish life that they can do the same.
All the best to you in your quest to save us.
דוד
Im not on a bit to save all the shmucks... But rather offering a warning based on the fruit offfoz & bi. Simple observations that what they are doing is wrong and leads people astray, if your not from Missouri (ffoz)or Minnesota (bi) you have no idea whats going on...
ReplyDeleteWow! Jesse all I can say is if this is your "love" and fruit of Messiah, I would not want any part of it.
ReplyDeleteYour comments are a shameful representation of the King of the Jews.
Troy, when you speak of FFOZ and BI folks should be made aware you are tied into both organizations. Folks can just look at BI's web site and see your CD is featured there and when one clicks on it ordering information from FFOZ appears! So as someone whose fate is tied in a sense to each organization, nevermind you've committed your family to move to and live in Hudson, folks need to realize you have some basis for bias. I am not saying having bias is good or bad -- I just think there needs to be more disclosure.
ReplyDeleteTroy, you said, "I am tired of the continual bashing of FFOZ and BI, or anyone else for that matter." I suggest you substitute the word "rebuking" for the word "bashing." Therefore, your original statement becomes, "I am tired of the continual rebuking of FFOZ and BI, or anyone else for that matter." Let's just concentrate on FFOZ and BI going forward.
Proverbs 28:23 (ESV) says: Whoever rebukes a man will afterward find more favor than he who flatters with his tongue. Ecclesiastes 7:5 (ESV) says: It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools. Please consider that what you characterize as "bashing" are actually righteous attempts by friends of these organizations and their leaders to rebuke them in love.
Please consider that when dissenting opinion is marginalized (or worse) the decisions of leaders going forward tend toward groupthink. Good decisions are not made when strong leaders surround themselves with people who fear voicing their opposing opinion. Perhaps the writers of Proverbs 28:23 and Ecclesiastes 7:5 are trying to say, "Avoid groupthink!"
Please consider 1 Corinthians 13:1 (ESV): If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If the above is true about the tongues of men and angels wouldn't the same be true of the rabbis and sages?
FFOZ and BI can and will do what they like and the leaders of these organizations can convince themselves they are going in the right direction by surrounding themselves with those who agree with them, but they would be wise to constructively consider and respond to the opinions of their loyal opposition and brothers and sisters in Messiah Yeshua who rebuke them in love.
As FFOZ and BI have become more and more tied to the rabbis and sages (call it Pharisaic Messianic Judaism) they have demonstrably failed to show the love of Yeshua. These organizations have received many rebukes and they have failed to heed those rebukes. I predict that if there is no change in their direction then over time when these organizations speak more and more followers of Yeshua will hear: GONG! GONG! GONG! CLANG! CLANG! CLANG!
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ReplyDeleteOne of the problems with the Messianic Jewish movement is the attaching of ‘Judaism’ unto ‘Messianic’. In this, Messianic Judaism is true to its title as having incorporated the perversion of Rabbinic Judaism into itself. Why some Jewish believers in the 1960’s took on the term, Messianic Judaism, is easy to see, but so extremely unfortunate. It seems to have doomed the movement to failure from its inception. In Hebraic thinking, one grows into the meaning of their name. That’s why God changed Jacob’s name (deceiver), to Israel (one who wrestles with God and finds favor with God and man; a prince).
ReplyDeleteAny entity that believes in Yeshua, that uses the term, ‘Judaism’ will grow into a Judaism of sorts. And that’s exactly what we have seen in the last 50 years of Messianic Judaism. It’s one part Orthodox Judaism, one part Kabbalah, one part Talmud, one part Church, and four parts polluted.
Judaism officially began in Yavneh (Jamnia), a city on the coast of Israel, south of present day Tel Aviv, by Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai, only after the Temple was destroyed. This is the religion of the Pharisees and Rabbis. Judaism is not what Yeshua practiced. If anything, He strove to distance Himself from the Pharisees, Rabbis and scribes, the spiritual ancestors of Judaism, and so should we. When we see Messiah being confronted (Mt. 15:2; Lk. 11:38, etc.), for His disciples not washing their hands according to the (Oral) Tradition of the Elders (which would become the written Talmud), we should take note and be very cautious about taking anything from Judaism.
Messianic Judaism has latched onto a perverse sect of the Jewish people. It seeks to emulate much from the descendants of the very people who vigorously opposed Messiah Yeshua and His followers. It also teaches things that Yeshua warned us against. Did the Apostles attach themselves to the Pharisees and teach their doctrines? How silly.
-Jesse
"Messianic Judaism has latched onto a perverse sect of the Jewish people. It seeks to emulate much from the descendants of the very people who vigorously opposed Messiah Yeshua and His followers"
ReplyDeleteJesse... go away, you antisemite! Just crawl back under the rock!
Man... wow, what a piece of work. I hope that the so called "independent messianics" will rid themselves of these Jew haters in their midst.
... and Gene pulls out the antisemite trump card!
ReplyDelete"... and Gene pulls out the antisemite trump card!"
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, you probably know the saying, "If the shoe fits, wear it."
I reject the argument that the only valid form of Torah observance is the Orthodox kind.
ReplyDeleteWe can be followers of Yeshua without accepting everything that comes out of the most observant (and sometimes legalistic) sects of Judaism.
That said, I remind everyone here: do not shame the name of Yeshua here in this thread. I own this place; I won't give a voice to that lot.
We can criticize (love without criticism isn't love), and we can debate, and we can vehemently disagree. But don't shame Messiah's name in this thread.
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ReplyDeleteI reject the argument that the only valid form of Torah observance is the Orthodox kind.
ReplyDeleteWe can be followers of Yeshua without accepting everything that comes out of the most observant (and sometimes legalistic) sects of Judaism.
You certainly have that right and I know you have a lot of company, not only in the "Messianic" realm but in (for example) Reform Judaism, which sets aside a lot of halacha as well. I'll probably be criticized for what I'm going to say next, but there probably is more than one right way to follow a Jewish lifestyle, if Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform movements are any indication.
I agree with David that without submitting to a larger authority (I don't necessarily mean the emotional states that some individuals interpret as the leading of the Spirit), how are we to determine a proper way to respond to God and the Bible? Are we all just supposed to "make it up as we go along"? Is "doing it because it feels good" the answer?
I've spent a lot of time writing on my own "morning meditations" blog discussing many of the issues (and arguments) brought up in this blog post, including unity among unalike people and groups (one of my favorite, but frustrated themes). You can click on my name to go to my blog (trying to avoid spamming Judah's comments section too much) and read my five or six most recent posts to get an idea of my thinking about what's been said here.
Jesse, you can either continue to choose to point fingers and blame others for your own pain, or you can start taking responsibility for your own emotions, seek wise council, and learn to move on. Beating a dead horse won't make it any more dead, it'll just make you more tired and frustrated. You're not hurting FFOZ or any other organization with your comments. You're only hurting yourself.
It's harder to learn to be at peace than it is to have another go at stirring the pot, but for which one did God create your being and your existence?
Another former BI community leader describes the problem using Romans 11. The problem is that messianic believers have started practicing all the traditions of the branches that are cut off and lying on the ground, rather that taking our support directly from the root and standing on our faith in Messiah Yeshua.
ReplyDeleteINTERESTING!!!!
"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [1] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you." Rom. 11:17-21
@James,
ReplyDeleteI hereby allow you to post occasional links in the comments. ;-)
Wanted to address one thing:
"Are we all just supposed to "make it up as we go along"? Is "doing it because it feels good" the answer?"
Each person is responsible to interpret and apply the Scriptures to their own lives.
No person standing before God will get a pass because he was just following the [big religious group X] interpretation of Scripture.
That isn't being prideful toward either Jewish or Catholic traditions. Rather, it's being responsible for your own walk before God.
From http://www.nabion.org/html/the_pharisees.html it says:
ReplyDelete"Modern Judaism is the by-product of the Pharisees and pharisaical method."
It also says:
"From both the voluminous records of the Qumran sect (Essenes), the preaching of John ben Zechariah, and the Lord’s own comments, we know that on the whole many Jews were either wary of or burdened by the Pharisees and their teachings, largely, one might suppose, because of the intense self-obsession their rules required and the often hawkish nitpicking at the littlest of things."
"Much of the knowledge of pre-destruction Judaism’s aversion for the Pharisees was lost until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. This was because the Pharisees were essentially the only sect of Judaism to survive intact after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. It was only then that they and their successors were eventually able to codify without strong objection all their views, oral laws, and extrapolations which they had gleaned from the Scriptures, calling this compilation Talmud, again, meaning study. Judaism became an almost entirely new religion based only on the influence of the surviving sect. Yet it was one that had been clearly held in derision by many Jews before. There were only rare instances where large groups of Jews broke from any recognition of the Talmud thereafter until modern times."
Jesse said:
"Messianic Judaism has latched onto a perverse sect of the Jewish people. It seeks to emulate much from the descendants of the very people who vigorously opposed Messiah Yeshua and His followers"
What you are say is correct! Messianic Judaism has latched onto Modern Judaism that is based upon the by-product of the Pharisees and pharisaical method.
If one reads Matthew 23 it clearly shows Yeshua speaking against the Pharisees. Therefore, using Gene's logic, Yeshua is an anti-semite! WAY TO GO GENE!
Anonymous... what is this "nabion.org" that you quote it with such authority and with a stamp "correct!"? Oh wait, a site that promotes nonsensical prophecies of some self-styled "Jewish prophet", a fella by an interesting name and or so "Jewish" name John Ben Katheryn.
ReplyDeleteI hereby allow you to post occasional links in the comments. ;-)
ReplyDeleteThanks. :-)
Each person is responsible to interpret and apply the Scriptures to their own lives.
No person standing before God will get a pass because he was just following the [big religious group X] interpretation of Scripture.
I'm not suggesting that people join a sect or religious group and then mindlessly obey all of the teachings of the leader without question. I'm very critical of "one-man show" types of congregations where the leader cannot be questioned no matter what.
On the other hand, I don't favor each individual simply rewriting the Bible based on their own emotions and personality quirks, either. There are some pretty odd theologies running around out there based on nothing more than how someone "felt" they should worship God in such-and-thus way. That's how cults are born.
Most of us actually do comply with a general set of standards that are adhered to by a group. This is usually the congregation we attend. If everyone did exactly as they pleased in a congregational setting, there would be theological and behavioral chaos. Does God want chaos or community?
If you don't want to follow a particular authority or their interpretation of the Bible, then don't. However, chances are you do have teachers and they teach from a particular perspective. Chances are you learn stuff about yourself and about God (if the teachers are any good, that is) from your teachers. It's not like we literally are charting our own course in a life of faith in total and absolute isolation from any other influences or that we're not allowed to agree with other people when they teach something that makes sense to us.
That said, I agree that in the end, we are each personally responsible to God for how we've conducted our lives. However, that doesn't mean we aren't capable of learning from other people or other traditions or that it's bad to belong to a congregation, sect, or denomination. It's not bad to recognize that you are learning from a teacher who you acknowledge as having more insight, or at least a different and unique insight, from your own.
All this exaltation of independent decision making by believers in matters of religious behavior and community standards - it almost sounds like we are comparing believers "just following orders" of pastors or rabbis to some excuses given by those who committed bloody military atrocities. All the while Hebrews 13:17 says clearly that we must be obedient to our community leaders:
ReplyDelete"Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
Judah, I couldn't stand it and I just had to add an extra "mediation" on my blog in response to your last comment and the general discussion about authority.
ReplyDeleteFor anyone interested, please read <a href='http://mymorningmeditations.com/2011/07/13/tasty-chazir/">Tasty Chazir</a>. It's what happens when an individual's interpretation of the Torah and a Rabbi collide...in this case, over breakfast on an airplane.
And, of course I messed up the "a" tag. Grrr. Tasty Chazir (checking my quotation marks once....twice...)
ReplyDelete@Troy, you still havent answered my question?
ReplyDeleteGene said ""Jesse... go away, you antisemite! Just crawl back under the rock!
Man... wow, what a piece of work. I hope that the so called "independent messianics" will rid themselves of these Jew haters in their midst.""
You finally show your true character!! Love it!
Gene, in a religious community who determines the acceptable norms of "religious behavior and community standards"?
ReplyDelete"Gene, in a religious community who determines the acceptable norms of "religious behavior and community standards"?"
ReplyDeleteIn a Jewish community it's the job of halachic authorities in whatever particular stream to uphold standards based on halacha and of congregational rabbis to teach it to their congregants accordingly and discipline or even eject those who willfully rebel against their authority to the detriment of the whole community.
In a Christian/Gentile community (for this example, Evangelical), denomination's leaders determine what's acceptable in their particular denomination. Then, individual pastors who submit to their denominational authority govern their churches/communities accordingly. (BTW, most of the so "non-denominational" churches are actually very much denominational, complete with a tiered authority structure, e.g. Calvary Chapel).
In small fiercely independent churches that do not associate with other "corrupt churches", pastors and elders rule supreme and often answer to no one but "directly to G-d". They determine what's acceptable for their congregants to engage in while part of their communities, or make it up as they go.
You finally show your true character!! Love it!
ReplyDeleteJesse,
You showed yours a long time ago..... your venom and hatred spewing comments are a gross misrepresentation of the Messiah you say you represent and uplift more than those "Pharisee followers".
Gene,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"In a Jewish community it's the job of halachic authorities in whatever particular stream to uphold standards based on halacha and of congregational rabbis to teach it to their congregants accordingly and discipline or even eject those who willfully rebel against their authority to the detriment of the whole community."
For the sake of clarity, is your response for a "Messianic Jewish community" addressed by your response for a "Jewish community?" If not then please describe the "Messianic Jewish community" case as well. I am presuming you are lumping the "Messianic Jewish community" with the "Jewish community," but you know how things are with assumptions... 8-)
For the sake of clarity, is your response for a "Messianic Jewish community" addressed by your response for a "Jewish community?" If not then please describe the "Messianic Jewish community" case as well. I am presuming you are lumping the "Messianic Jewish community" with the "Jewish community," but you know how things are with assumptions... 8-)
ReplyDeleteI don't know how Gene will respond, but I wouldn't lump "Messianic Jewish Community" into "Jewish Community". MJ is way too variable and I suspect the vast majority of groups out there that call themselves "Messianic" (this includes all OL, TH, and other variants) observe little to no halachah at all (or at least a halachah that wouldn't be recognized as Jewish).
Although many MJ groups have outward "Jewish" trappings, many and perhaps most are fundamentally Christian at their core and, as this conversation has illustrated, disdain halachah.
@ Judah, Jesse, CF, Tami, Yak (voices of sound scriptural doctrine and reason):
ReplyDelete'Illegitimi non carborundum' (don't let 'em grind you down)!
James,
ReplyDeleteI think you're right, there are (at least) two kinds of "Messianic Judaism." I have personally thought from there are four kinds of MJism.
From another perspective, one put forth by Gene that's very interesting, has MJism consisting of those characterized by "independent decision making by believers in matters of religious behavior and community standards" and those who are NOT characterized by "independent decision making by believers in matters of religious behavior and community standards".
Gene,
Please draw us a picture. What is the opposite of "independent decision making by believers in matters of religious behavior and community standards?"
"Please draw us a picture. What is the opposite of "independent decision making by believers in matters of religious behavior and community standards?""
ReplyDeleteThat's easy. The opposite is one DEPENDENT on established standards and community leadership. In other words the opposite is more ORDER, more PEACE and more SANITY, more COMMUNITY vs. every man/woman making their own private little religion as they go and fighting with those who disagree and splitting into ever smaller home church groups.
I've yet to hear a compelling argument from Gene's side that does not also invalidate all of Protestantism.
ReplyDelete"I've yet to hear a compelling argument from Gene's side that does not also invalidate all of Protestantism."
ReplyDeleteI am not here to draw from Protestantism lessons for a Jewish halachic community). The way Protestantism works is not a model for me and it should not be one for Jewish followers of Yeshua. Even so, until fairly recently, Protestantism was heavily denominational (which meant established standards and creeds - a Protestant "halacha" if you will).
Gene,
ReplyDeleteIn the context of the "Messianic Jewish community" that is also acting as "Jewish community," you said:
"That's easy. The opposite is one DEPENDENT on established standards and community leadership. In other words the opposite is more ORDER, more PEACE and more SANITY, more COMMUNITY vs. every man/woman making their own private little religion as they go and fighting with those who disagree and splitting into ever smaller home church groups."
What is the source of the "established standards" you cited?
There's another key difference between us.
ReplyDeleteI believe the Protestant Reformation was from God. It brought people out of traditions-gone-haywire (selling forgiveness of sins - really?) and abuse of the "ORDER, PEACE and SANITY" that big organized religion is supposed to bring.
Like Gene, the Catholic Church had claimed that individuals can't interpret Scripture for themselves; and like Gene, they claimed the only way to properly understand the Scripture was through the lenses of the big religious organization at the top.
This gave power to the Church, which it promptly abused in persecuting Jews and Christians who didn't see things the Church's way.
The Protestant Reformation served as an important foundation even for today's Messianic movement. The Reformation made it possible for Messianic Judaism to be born.
The Jewish world could use such a reformation to free us from some of the bondage and heavy burdens that some traditions have created around the Torah.
Like the selling of indulgences, some of the traditions of Judaism are unscriptural and enslaving. Some of them nullify God's commandments. Messiah attested to this.
It doesn't mean all traditions are bad, God forbid. Just like it doesn't mean everything Catholic is bad. Rather, there are certain traditions, created by regular people, that are contrary to the divine words of the Torah. When that occurs, we should throw out those traditions. Further, we should keep traditions in their proper place: firmly beneath Scripture.
"What is the source of the "established standards" you cited?"
ReplyDeleteJudaism (yes, there are varieties - so, whatever the standards of a community of Judaism a particular group of Jewish believers have descended from).
"There's another key difference between us. I believe the Protestant Reformation was from God."
ReplyDeleteWho said that I don't believe that it was? But for that matter, Catholicism was from G-d too - after all, it gave birth to Catholic Monk's Martin Luther's Protestantism in the 16th century.
"Like the selling of indulgences, some of the traditions of Judaism are unscriptural and enslaving. Some of them nullify God's commandments. Messiah attested to this. "
You mean that Judaism today teaches that one should give to charity instead of supporting one's parents? (Oh, wait, that was just Yeshua scolding practices of SOME of his detractors instead of making blank condemnation of Judaism of which he was part).
Gene,
ReplyDeleteI understand you are saying the "established standards" for the "Messianic Jewish community" that operates within the "Jewish community" has Judaism as its source.
Is it then possible a follower of Yeshua, a Jewish Believer, could have "established standards" placed upon them that originate from a non-Believing source?
The Jewish world could use such a reformation to free us from some of the bondage and heavy burdens that some traditions have created around the Torah.
ReplyDeleteYou probably know this already Judah, but there are very reformed versions of Judaism that set aside most or all of halachah, so you've got your wish. Also, what burden does Judaism put on you? I'm sure your congregation doesn't conform to the standards of halachah set forth by the Orthdox (or for that matter, the Conservative or Reform movements), so you shouldn't feel burdened at all. In fact, anyone who is complying with halachah are accepting the burden voluntarily (OK, if you were born into an Orthodox family, you didn't "volunteer", but plenty of kids leave the religion of their parents when they get old enough). No one is holding a gun to your head (or anyone else's head) and saying, "grow payot or die".
Rather, there are certain traditions, created by regular people, that are contrary to the divine words of the Torah.
We could go into whether or not we should consider the Rabbinic sages "regular people", but I'll blow past that one. What portions of Jewish tradition directly contradict the Torah (because theoretically, they shouldn't)?
Oh, on your other blog post, I made a comment inviting Jesse to read the blog post I'm publishing for tomorrow's "morning meditation": "Who Are Our Teachers?". I hope you'll consider reading it, too. It shows (hopefully) the other side of what it is to be a disciple and a student (the light and not the dark side) and I hope I can add some illumination to this discussion. I tried doing that with yesterday afternoon's "Tasty Chazir" blog post, but I don't think my point was significantly compelling. More's the pity.
"Is it then possible a follower of Yeshua, a Jewish Believer, could have "established standards" placed upon them that originate from a non-Believing source?"
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, devout Jews are the "believing source". They believe in Messiah too and eagerly await him. They just do not recognize the "face" of Yeshua as that Messiah YET because he is disguised from them (as Joseph was in Egypt). They did not stop being G-d's People (same can't be said of any other people group and religion).
Gene,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your reply. I just want to make sure I understood you correctly. I said:
"Is it then possible a follower of Yeshua, a Jewish Believer, could have "established standards" placed upon them that originate from a non-Believing source?"
You said:
"Anonymous, devout Jews are the "believing source". They believe in Messiah too and eagerly await him. They just do not recognize the "face" of Yeshua as that Messiah YET because he is disguised from them (as Joseph was in Egypt). They did not stop being G-d's People (same can't be said of any other people group and religion)."
Based upon my question and your answer the following is the simplest way to express your answer based upon my question:
"Yes."
Did I understand you correctly?
"Based upon my question and your answer the following is the simplest way to express your answer based upon my question: "Yes." Did I understand you correctly?"
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, my "Yes" is my answer only to the question as REFRAMED by me because it takes into account the ongoing and irrevocable covenantal status of Jewish people as well as authority acknowledged of Jewish leaders by Yeshua himself. Jewish sages are not simply an "unbelieving source" as if they were no different than Buddhists priests or Muslim imams or followers or leaders of any other so called "man-made religion" (as Christianity has viewed Jews and Judaism, historically).
To answer your question unreframed directly with a Yes or No without taking into account all of the above is no different than answering a question: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" with Yes or No.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteGood one on the stopping beating one's wife... 8-)
How do you feel about a Jewish Believer using an Artscroll siddur? How do you feel about a non-Jewish Believer using an Artscoll siddur?
How do you feel about a Jewish Believer using an Artscroll siddur? How do you feel about a non-Jewish Believer using an Artscoll siddur?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous,
Although I've put away my tallit and kippah as I explore a Gentile's faith of the Jewish Messiah the realm of Jewish study, I continue to pray with my Artscroll siddur. Do you perceive a difficulty here?
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ReplyDeleteJames,
ReplyDeleteAsk yourself a fundamental question. Are you doing what you are doing because you are a follower of Yeshua or because you are doing what the rabbis tell you to do? Can you really serve two masters? I don't think the tallit and kippah are the issue. Is the Holy Spirit telling you to put down your kippah and tallit?
I do perceive a difficulty when followers of Yeshua, whether Jew or non-Jew, take their spiritual food from a non-believing source. On the use of a siddur from a non-believing source, I have one case where Dr. Michael L. Brown has stated concerns while in another Boaz Michael of FFOZ indicates no concern. Like physical food, I believe we too are what we eat when it comes to spiritual food.
I have seen great damage done to believers at the hands of those who purport to be disciples of Yeshua but are really disciples of the modern Pharisees. I pray that if you have not been similarly damaged that if you have that you seek, find and remain in the love of Yeshua in your spiritual journey going forward.
Dear Anonymous (whoever you are),
ReplyDeleteI really don't see an inconsistency between being a disciple of the Jewish Messiah and using a siddur in prayer. You imply that the coming of the Jewish Messiah invalidates all subsequent Jewish faith in God and I don't believe that's true. I've seen great faith and devotion to God in the synagogue and I'm not about to wipe my feet on the Jewish people just because they don't sing "Praise Jesus" and wave their hands in the air.
The first blessing I say every morning, even before I get out of bed, is this:
I gratefully thank you, living and existing King, for returning my soul to me with compassion. Abundant is your faithfulness.
I don't find anything speaking against the Master in this blessing. I don't find anything against the Messiah in saying the Shema or the last blessing I speak before retiring, the bedtime Shema (though I only recite from Psalm 128 to the end).
If you haven't done so already, please visit my blog (just click on my name...it's a link). I incorporate more than a little of the Talmud and Chassidic writings (particularly the sayings of the Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schreerson as related by Rabbi Tzvi Freeman) into the expression of my faith in Jesus (Yeshua, if you will). You'll get a more detailed view of my perspective there than I can express in a blog comment. I'll be glad to try and answer any specific questions about what I've said in any of my wee essays (and yes, I'm an oddball).
Dear Anonymous (whoever you are),
ReplyDeleteMy previous response to you must have gotten diverted to the blogger spam bucket (a blogger bug) and I don't know if Judah has been around lately to free it, so I'll try to reconstruct what I said before.
You imply a disparity between traditional Jewish prayers and being a disciple of the Jewish Messiah where I don't believe one exists. Some of the prayers in the siddur go all the way back to the time of Moses, so I hardly think they conflict with the Master's teachings (and yes, I'm aware that many have extra-Biblical sources, including the Zohar).
The very first blessing I say in the morning, even before getting out of bed, is this:
I gratefully thank you, living and existing King, for returning my soul to me with compassion. Abundant is your faithfulness.
I don't see how that blessing conflicts with my faith in Jesus (Yeshua, if you will) in any way.
I also don't understand how reciting the Shema and the very last blessing I recite before I go to sleep, the bedtime Shema (though I only recite from Psalm 128 until the end), is a problem.
As far as the Talmudic sages being "modern Pharisees" (gosh, you sound like Jesse), I tried to address some of those concerns in a blog post I wrote yesterday called "As If Considering Angels" (click on my name which is a link to my blog and scroll to yesterday's blog post).
In fact, if you haven't done so already, reading my blog is a much better way to understand my perspective than what I can express in a blog comment. You can also address any specific points of mine with which you disagree.
Why am I doing what I'm doing? I spent a year trying to answer the question of why I was worshiping in a "One Law" context behaving as an "ersatz Jew" while watching my wife, who is Jewish, explore her faith in God in a traditional Jewish community. Probably that, more than anything, eventually convinced me to alter my path.
Is that a "leading from the Holy Spirit"? I don't know in absolute terms. I don't hear audible voices in my head telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing. I only know that a long series of events along with many prayers and a lot of studying, have resulted in a strong conviction that God does not mean to destroy the Jewish people, assimilate them into the larger world culture, or obliterate their distinct covenant relationship with God by having non-Jewish believers become Jewish "clones". Starting with Abraham, God sanctified the Jewish people and I don't believe he ever "unsanctified them" in order to bring the Gospel to the rest of the world.
You are perfectly free to disagree with the decision I've made about my relationship with God, but my decision applies to only me. I don't impose it on anyone else. You may follow a different path as your conscience dictates. May we both draw closer to God and His will.
"Are you doing what you are doing because you are a follower of Yeshua or because you are doing what the rabbis tell you to do? Can you really serve two masters?"
ReplyDeleteAnonymous... you mean to say that YOU yourself don't serve two masters (AT LEAST) by your own definition of what that means - do you not obey the laws of the U.S. Government or work to serve it at least 1hr 55 minutes every day (per http://visual.ly/work-we-do-pay-taxes)?
Also, how do you explain away (because that's exactly what you have to do) Yeshua's own command to his Jewish disciples regarding obeying Jewish authorities? Was Yeshua asking his listeners to "serve two masters" as you claim? Can you point to another place in NT where obedience to Jewish authorities is equated to serving two masters?
""The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you." (Matthew 23:3)
Let me finish off most of the comments by adding that the transition that you listed, point by point, starts with a new-found love of Tora and ends with realizing and accepting all of its truth; which makes it clear what is and what isn't foreign service.
ReplyDeleteYour love of Torah is good. But you got involved with things Dad warned you about. You ignored those warnings. You became influenced by voices that spoke against Messiah. And now you've walked away from Yeshua and became an enemy of gospel.
ReplyDeleteI still love you. I reject your new anti-Messiah outlook. When you return, I'll be celebrating with you, brother.
If you knew Tora better, and if you didn't reject a whole entire aspect of it, you wouldn't think that way.
ReplyDeleteOn any issue, when anyone has a problem with what is defined and brought in the Tora, they are lording themselves over it. Disagreeing with HaShem.
And btw, I changed on my own study; which started years ago on my own. A lot of my motivating was realizing, something like 5 years ago, that everyone in our community at the time wasn't as serious about Tora. Then when I actually found out what things like "Talmud", "halakha", etc, etc, etc actually are - I realized that nobody had any idea what they were talking about, and that I'd been unintentionally misled. Try explaining that to someone who was where you were but didn't make the simple step you did - and that has been the story of my life in recent years, until this past one where I've mostly given up.
ReplyDeleteAaron does have a good point, though. I mean the more you study judaism the more you start to realize what a load of crap messianic judaism and christianity are. I'm just saying...
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly, Messianic Judaism, Christianity, and Hebrew roots movements have some issues of their own.
ReplyDeleteEven so, the only person in the world to have kept the Torah perfectly is our rabbi and Master. That we have, at times, been poor disciples of his doesn't diminish his light.
Admin notice: I've removed a few comments here at the request of their authors.
ReplyDelete