- One Torah, not One Law (PDF) – Prominent Messianic teacher and scholar Tim Hegg suggests “One Law” theology ought to be called “One Torah”.
The reason?
One Law adherents believe in the sufficiency and supremacy of the Scriptures. That is, the Scriptures were given by God and are sufficient for Messianic faith and practice; the Talmud and other secondary works are not required.
It has become increasingly evident that those who oppose our “One Torah” perspective have given more and more authority to what is commonly known as the “Oral Torah,” that is, the traditions of Rabbinic Judaism. Our use of the label “One Torah,” therefore, will also make it clear that while we appreciate the value of rabbinic literature as offering historical backgrounds out of which the Apostolic Scriptures (in particular) were written, we do not accord the writings of the rabbis as having authority to bind the conscience nor do we give the rabbis the authority to reinterpret the Scriptures.
- Helsinki Press Release: Jewish Believers in Jesus – The Messianic Jewish Theological Institute gathered with a great number of Jewish Christians to see if they can agree on anything.
- You Have To Be Willfully Blind – With the recent flotilla incident, the world is super-dee-duper-scary-angry at Israel. Aussie Dave shows the anti-Israel sentiment is often little more than a disguised form of anti-Semitism, as seen in this image posted to the 1 Million People Who Hate Israel Facebook group.
- Why the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 cannot be Israel – Jews for Jesus says Isaiah 53 is about Messiah. Jews for Judaism says it’s about Israel. Are the two views mutually exclusive? 166 comments later, we’re still unsure.
- Does God Love Gentiles, Too? – James discusses Jew and gentile relations in the Messianic movement, mixed marriages, resistance to the idea of gentiles converting to Messianic Judaism, and more.
- Oldest Painting of the Apostles – Archaeologists have uncovered a 1500 year-old painting of Peter, Andrew, Paul, and John in the catacombs of St. Tecla, Italy.
- No, really, the world pretty much hates Israel:
- Kosher Tobacco – Amusing post by Dr. Schiffman on tobacco being, errhh, uhmm, kosher. It’s true!
- Touchdown Jesus and the Oil Spill – In the 3rd installment of Russ Resnik interviewing his younger, hippie self, Russ discusses judgment, the apocalypse, national prayer, and oil spill off the US coast that’s making news lately.
- Israel: What Are Christians To Think? – Is Israel in the right with this flotilla problem? Can the state of Israel do anything it wants because it’s God’s Nation?
J-BOM (Jewish Book of the Month club)
- Torah of Lovingkindness – Yahnatan Lasko on this month’s selection, As A Driven Leaf.
Podcasts
- I Am – Derek Leman addresses Yeshua’s “I Am” statements in the gospel of John. Are they indicative of Yeshua being divine nature?
- Sorting Out End-Time Theologies – Dr. Michael Brown sheds clarifying light on the vast array of end-times theologies.
Enjoy the tasty bracha bits, my fine blog readers! May they sustain you ‘till next week.
Thanks for posting a link to my "Does God Love Gentiles, Too?" article. I expect the "less than complementary" comments about my viewpoint to begin fairly soon, though I may be overshadowed by those who disagree with Tim Hegg's write up.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry. I say these things "tongue-in-cheek". Hope you're keeping your head above water at work.
"I may be overshadowed by those who disagree with Tim Hegg's write up"
ReplyDeleteJames, you will be WAY overshadowed by the Jewish reaction to Mr. Hegg's write up.
I can foresee that in the next few years or so to come we will witness that whatever is left of the One-Law movement (now lead by Mr. Hegg) will become more and more anti-semitic, more and more anti-Judaism, and more and more anti-Rabbinic, and more and more anti Jewish (Messianic or not). It's inevitable - it has happened to most groups within which a deep resentment of Jews has been nurtured by careful ideological/theological constructs, whether it was based on supposed and PERCEIVED financial or in this case theological "misdeeds" of the Jews towards the Gentiles. I wonder what it will lead to...
Gene,
ReplyDeleteOne of your more stupid statements on the blogsphare. You are the epitome of the Yehudi galuti- a typical diaspora Jew, infested with paranoia. Yah, here comes Tim Hegg to destroy Judaism....LOL!
Well, I am Jewish and also adhere to One-Law, are you going to call me an anti-semite?
you have been silent for a while and the blogs were more civil, think you can disappear again for a while?.....
"Well, I am Jewish and also adhere to One-Law, are you going to call me an anti-semite?"
ReplyDeleteDan, ever heard a term "self-hating Jew"? Since you never speak up for your fellow Jewish believers but instead always accuse them of "apartheid", you remind me of the Israeli peaceniks who always accuse Israel and Jews of misdeeds and always identify more readily with those who oppose Jews.
"you have been silent for a while and the blogs were more civil, think you can disappear again for a while?"
Can't handle the heat, Dan?
Kol hakavod to Gene.
ReplyDeleteGene, I say, let the anti-Semitic or anti-Judaistic (same thing) people just take themselves out of the picture, as they're doing. They're just going to fizzle out and come to nothing more than something on par with Protestantism.
If people really think they know Torah, and really think the Oral Torah is made up by the "evil" Rabbis, then they can join the Muslims and Christians who believe the same. They join the bandwagon of anti-Semitic religions, theologies, and nations.
Harsh? NO! So many good intentoned Messianics who just want to do the right thing (that's why the left the church) have no idea they're being deceived by the same anti-Semitic lies of Christianity that have been around and caused the deaths of Jews for centuries upon centuries!
Jews and Judaism has had enough, and Jews need to get back to Israel and to Torath Eress Yisrael and forget about everything else!
And the "one law", anti-Oral Torah fallacy that so many beloved, good-intentioned, God-fearing people believe in is a product of being brainwashed by anti-Semitic theology along with lack of study and knowledge of the subject. Its too bad, because I know almost none of these people have no conscious anti-Semitism, they're simply deceived into it, and its a shame they don't wake up.
ReplyDeleteSame with Zionist Christians. Since all Christianity and most Messianism seeks to replace Jews/Judaism in some way or another, their love of Israel conflicts with their theology. Time for them to just get out of it, already, and come home to aba! hahaha
Its a matter of people being truthfully drawn, through probably personal prayer and a real desire to do HaShem's will, but not able to break out of all dafuq beliefs.
OK, locked and loaded. Bring on the misinformed arguments!
Hey, Gene,
ReplyDeleteHow can I be a self hating Jew when I love myself so much?....
I don;t hate Jews. I just like to expose the silliness of a group that formed a "Jewish" organization and then let all the Gentile come in....Now that is folly, don't you think so?.....
Bur seriously, the sad part is the warped thinking of someone like you who think the more he kisses up and tell the Jews he loves them, they then will be willing to remove your status of a "meshumad"....
Get real Gene, for them you are not Jewish. Got it? Here it is one more time: FOR THEM YOU ARE NOT JEWISH....We both are in the same boat. The difference between you and me is that i do not possess a "galut" mentality.
Wise up!
Jewzilla,
ReplyDeleteI guess then, 90% of the Jews who live in Israel are all deceived since they reject the oral-law?
This is a trait I noticed in you as I continue reading your posts,You do not think before you write....LOL!
Jewzilla,
ReplyDeleteI guess then, 90% of the Jews who live in Israel are all deceived since they reject the oral-law?
This is a trait I noticed in you as I continue reading your posts,You do not think before you write....LOL!
Dan,
ReplyDeleteNot exactly true.. maybe hhilonim, or some reject Judaism/Torah in general, but we all know Israeli culture is founded in the Torah. And that many masortim are just not religious to the level of datim. Not that they disbelieve the Torah and such.
You've lived there longer than me, you should know. Unless you don't get around or don't get out much?
Some of the titles of these links bother me.
ReplyDelete"Why the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 can't be Israel" is just ridiculous in the first place, for anyone who looks at the context of the Prophets and the context of that term throughout the Tanakh! Israel is constantly called HaShem's son.
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh: Thus saith the LORD: Israel is My son, My first-born.
for I am become a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My first-born.
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.
"Does God love gentiles too".. as in.. gentiles are apparently the same status as Jews, like Paulos apparently said. Or as if one is even superior than the other. Or as if the Torah doesn't apply only to Israelites and those becoming Israelites/joining themselves to the Jewish people.
Oddly, all this stuff so far totally disregards the plain, clear, simple, undeniable truth of the Tanakh...
"He declareth His word unto Jacob, His statutes and His ordinances unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation; and as for His ordinances, they have not known them.
Hallelujah.
And Torah is specifically for Israel for them to keep IN the Land.
"Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them...And I commanded you at that time all the things which ye should do."
"I am", as if Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh, or just "ehyeh" is used in the same was as "ani"/"anokhi" in Hebrew...
These silly correlations are based on English translations of a Hebrew phrase which doesn't translate into English well... knowledge of at least some Hebrew is a must for understanding what stuff in the HEBREW Bible means. Common sense. Don't think translations are always or often accurate or entail the whole meaning of the Hebrew text. Or that they're just as good, hhas weshalom.
How can I be a self hating Jew when I love myself so much?....
ReplyDeleteSelf-hating Jews love themselves - it's true. And only themselves. They disdain other Jews.
"someone like you who think the more he kisses up and tell the Jews he loves them, they then will be willing to remove your status of a "meshumad"
Yes, I do love my fellow Jews and unlike you, I don't view them as "THEM". You so resent being viewed as 'mushamad", they you have turned against your own and set on repaying evil for evil.
"Get real Gene, for them you are not Jewish."
There you go again, with "THEM." May G-d someday be give you a heart that says "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Messiah for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel."
"The difference between you and me is that i do not possess a "galut" mentality."
Dan, some of us "galut Jews" know first hand what's it's really like to be Jews. The funniest thing is, you used to live in the Land (decades ago?), but now you're still here, in good 'ol USA - you decided that galut is better!
Guys! Settle the hell down. Seriously. My God. Relax. Don't squeeze your anuses so damn tightly.
ReplyDeleteTim Hegg didn't demonize the oral traditions of Judaism. He didn't claim they're written by evil rabbis. He believes in the sufficiency of the Scriptures. You disagree? Fine. Relax. It's going to be OK.
Any more of this name-calling crap from any of you will result in being banned for this blog.
Have fun, children.
Hey, Judah,
ReplyDeletethis is just a lovefest between two Jewsconasess, chil out....
I'm just relaxing back, sippin' on a little night cap, watching you three calling each other names and hurling passive-aggressive insults. (All the while making claims other other peoples' ignorance, while undoubtedly you guys are the ones with special knowledge from on high. Give me a break.)
ReplyDeleteMy blog, my rules. Settle the hell down, or GTFO, that goes for you, Gene, and Aaron.
So we have to deny that there's self-hating Jews apparently like Dan, galut Jews apparently like Gene, and Jews who don't think before they write, apparently like me? I'm sure all these kinds of Jews exist, and more. And a heck of a lot of kinds of Messianics and Christians exist as well. It won't change anything if everyone keeps singing kum baya, which is very bad Hebrew grammar for "problem, arise" hahaha seriously.
ReplyDeleteObviously this insane attack fest wasn't a rational argument. But once in a while, even to our closest neighbor, we just need to say "you're doing ____ wrong, knock it off". The only thing is, we shouldn't just hate someone for whatever it is we're doing wrong, because we all do things wrong.
I feel fine with how its been so far. You gotta just say how things are. If things are really messed up, its best to get it all out and just say it like it is. If we don't, then its actually "passive-aggressive" PC BS that breeds lashon hara`. Lashon hara` doesn't happen when you're telling someone something to their face, its only when its behind someone's back.
There's a time for rational argument without telling someone they're an idiot. And there's a time for telling someone they're an idiot. I'm not at all offended by Dan's comments btw, there's no reason to be, I'd rather him speak his mind than beat around the bush and think I'm a moron in secret, haha.
Anyway, enough on my end, enough about all the bashing of anti-Rabbinism on this blog.
I forgot to mention, the king of Jew who mocks everything with the phrase "mickey mouse" (but can't spell it correctly), like Dan hahahahahahahahahahahahaha..... ahhh.....
ReplyDeletekind*, not "king". ahhhhh crap, haha
ReplyDeleteOn the main page of my congregation's website, I wrote the phrase, "We are a group of Jews and Gentiles who gather together in peace to worship the Almighty and His Son, our Messiah, Yeshua".
ReplyDeleteI'm very concerned about certain trends I see emerging in the Messianic movement indicating the same Gentile/Jewish schism that separated the Gentile church from the original Messianic congregations established by the Apostles could potentially happen today.
I believe what Paul wrote in Galatians about both Jewish and Gentile believers being equal in the love of Yeshua, but in the eyes of some groups in our movement, is that really being acted out, or is one group being elevated at the expense of the other?
If you're Jewish and Messianic, you might see the group being elevated as Gentiles and if you're a Gentile Messianic, it could be the other way around. The door swings both ways, with the common factor being the need of human beings as groups and individuals to feel secure. People sometimes achieve this "security" by making themselves "top dog" in "the pack".
This is not what Paul wrote about in his letters and he bent over backwards to show that Gentile believers didn't have to convert to Judaism in order to be loved by God. He also said in Romans that no group, neither Jews nor Gentiles, had any room to boast.
I've been writing a lot about this concern lately. Here's just one example.
Jewzilla:
ReplyDeleteWhile you and I would probably find much common ground on matters such as the importance of rabbinic teaching, you dismissed my podcast on the I Am sayings in John most likely without listening. Your argument is that since the Hebrew in Exodus 3 is not best translated I Am, then the whole argument that I Am in John is about Yeshua divinity is a non-starter.
Well, try listening to the podcast, would you?
I Am is not just about Exodus 3. It is first and foremost about a set of sayings in the fourth gospel, about the Wisdom Christology of the apostles, about a vast array of Hebrew Bible statements about the uniqueness of God, and so on.
I am not sure you will agree with my podcast even after you listen, but you won't be able to dismiss me with a feather as light as the one you tried.
Derek Leman
"I believe what Paul wrote in Galatians about both Jewish and Gentile believers being equal in the love of Yeshua, but in the eyes of some groups in our movement, is that really being acted out, or is one group being elevated at the expense of the other?"
ReplyDeleteJames, first of all, you have made a lot of straw man arguments here and in your article - as the current controversy in the "movement" (whatever that word encompasses today) is nothing to do with some supposed ELEVATION of any particular group over the other, being a "top dog", or anything like that. At least not from the Jewish perspective it's not!
Rather, it's about a preservation of each group's distinctive calling. I believe that it's G-d will for distinctive callings of Jews and Gentiles to be preserved for all eternity. With G-d, being different is not a qualitative thing as some offshoots on the sidelines of the "movement" try to make it out to be.
Secondly, one should view the Body of Messiah holistically. There are infinitely more Gentiles who are part of Christianity "proper".
"He also said in Romans that no group, neither Jews nor Gentiles, had any room to boast."
Again, another straw man argument, James. Who has been boasting? I have heard nether Jews not Gentiles boasting here or elsewhere.
James:
ReplyDeleteThe accusation that those of us who see Messianic Judaism as the Jewish part of Yeshua's body is resurrecting the Jew/Gentile schism is without base.
You ignore the fact that Messianic Judaism was started as a movement for Jewish people to express life and faith in Yeshua. Those who are not Jewish and who wish to be part of Messianic Judaism should be here for a Jewish movement to come alongside, not to say, "Hey, Messianic Judaism belongs to us now, so move over Jews."
Your thinking, if you are like many who make the accusation you do, is that Torah was given to the nations through Yeshua (ignoring the Torah and the New Testament which deny this) and therefore there is no validity to Jewish identity (since non-Jews in Yeshua now are de facto Jews).
You are part of a tiny theological minority that thinks this way. The burden of proof is on you guys, not on Christianity or Judaism. But in your small circle of people who share your views, you seem to have a good argument.
So I am perturbed by your accusation that some MJ leaders (I suppose I would be one) elevate one part of the body above the other. Not so. First, the normal place for non-Jews in Messiah is the church, not MJ. Second, I am a believer in the role of non-Jews in MJ as people who come alongside and support what God is doing amongst the Jewish people.
No one is elevating anyone. You simply wish to call your movement Messianic JUDAISM, which you should not, since it has nothing to do with Jews and apparently denies the validity of Jewish identity.
It is replacement theology, plain and simple.
I wish you would either rejoice in your non-Jewish identity and find your place in the church or realize that your participation in MJ (assuming your congregation is actually Jewish, which I do not think is a given) is about supporting God's work amongst the people of Israel.
Derek Leman
So Derek, what you're saying is that I should leave my current congregation and return to a Sunday keeping church?
ReplyDelete"So Derek, what you're saying is that I should leave my current congregation and return to a Sunday keeping church?"
ReplyDeleteJames, is not your wife Jewish? If so, I would say that you have a legitimate reason to be part of a Messianic congregation - for your wife's sake. Otherwise, yes - I would say that a Sunday (or Monday, Tuesday, Wed..) keeping church would be a perfectly acceptable and even a preferable choice for you and most Gentile followers of the Messiah.
I've been trying to understand this conversation and the apparent "disconnect" I seem to be experiencing. It occurred to me that there's a basic difference in conceptualization involved.
ReplyDeleteThese days, I never say "Messianic Judaism" to refer to my congregation or faith context, but rather use the terms "Messianic" or "the Messianic movement." I don't believe the faith content I'm involved in is, strictly speaking, a "Judaism", which is why I wrote Is Messianic Judaism a Judaism?.
The way I conceptualize "Messianism" is a return to what most Christians call "the first century church" which was the first time Gentiles were introduced to a Messianic/Hebraic worship form without being required to actually convert to Judaism or to be bound within the confines of "God-fearer."
Messianic Judaism, as its being defined by Gene, Derek, and others, seems to be a worship experience by, for, and about Jewish people, but without a Gentile component. If Gentiles are actually involved, the role they would play in the congregation and in the larger faith, would be significantly different, something like how a Gentile would be considered if they attended a traditional synagogue with a Jewish spouse. The Gentile, in a traditional Jewish synagogue, wouldn't be called up for a Torah reading, wouldn't be eligible to sit on the Board of Directors, wouldn't be eligible to serve on a committee, and so on. They'd pretty much "be there", but that's it.
I can see from that perspective how you Gene or how Derek might say I should go to a Sunday keeping church, since I'm not Jewish. I'm not convinced though, that going to a Sunday keeping church is an answer for all Gentiles who currently worship in Messianic (as opposed to Messianic Jewish) congregations. I've been worshipping with the same group of people for close to ten years now, am welcomed in the congregation, and no one has a problem with me being a vanilla flavored Gentile. On the other hand, I don't think we could be called a "Messianic Jewish" congregation as it's being defined in this conversation. This brings up an interesting question. Can a primarily Gentile congregation be "Messianic"?
James:
ReplyDeleteThank you for further clarification. Yes, I think part of the problem is the use of the name Messianic.
I understand that One Law groups (don't know a better name to use right now, maybe Torah-Yeshua groups?) don't want to use the name Christian (which I think is unfortunate since Christian is a good name and should not be despised).
But Messianic is the name we have used for our movement. It is a name which communicates Messianic Jewish to the world. If One Law groups were to use a different name, that would solve a lot of the problem. But, in my (admittedly limited) experience, One Law groups talk the talk of being a possible home for Jewish followers of Yeshua (even when they have no Jewish members or leaders). I'm not sure most One Law groups would want to give up the illusion of being Messianic Jewish.
Derek Leman
"Can a primarily Gentile congregation be "Messianic"?"
ReplyDeleteJames, a while back I found this article (written by a Gentile believer) and I think right on the money:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8521897/Can-an-AllGentile-Congregation-be-Messianic
James,
ReplyDeleteI think that the UMJC and the MJTI should add this sentence to their statement of beliefs:
"We want to have the cake and eat it too."
Derek could have never become a member in Dauermann's congregation without him going through their so called "conversion."
Get my drift?
"James,
ReplyDeleteI think that the UMJC and the MJTI should add this sentence to their statement of beliefs:
"We want to have the cake and eat it too."
Derek could have never become a member in Dauermann's congregation without him going through their so called "conversion."
Get my drift?"
Exactly... I don't see why people can't put this together... guess it will take a full divide to see the error.
"guess it will take a full divide to see the error."
ReplyDeleteJeruz, who says that you are even united to Messianic Judaism or Judaism in general, rather than simply being part of yet another Hebrew roots / Torah-for-Gentiles Christian group / Gentiles are Israel (like Worldwide Church of G-d or SDA) and one which misappropriated the term "messianic"?
"Jeruz, who says that you are even united to Messianic Judaism or Judaism in general, rather than simply being part of yet another Hebrew roots / Torah-for-Gentiles Christian group / Gentiles are Israel (like Worldwide Church of G-d or SDA) and one which misappropriated the term "messianic"?"
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstand what I am saying... we are to be a unified body... We are not to have our own little religious movements or groups of religions... As in either you can follow the religion of Christianity or you can follow Judaism, or you can follow Messianic Judaism which is a branch of Judaism or you can follow a Gentile Messianic Judaism, which is not a Judaism at all... etc etc. What happened to a unified body of believers in Messiah? At least "one law" says we are all a family needing to obey our father, Christianity offers that we are all a family that takes on gentile leadership and gentile culture that replaces biblical culture... Bilateral Ecclesiology is saying we are a family but we should avoid fellowship at the cost of losing our identity, or we can fellowship but we must make a clear distinction between us and the gentile so no one thinks we are gentiles and vice-versa... If you can't see why that fails to be a family, I think it would take a major divide to come to realize the error.
Jeruz, do you read and believe the prophets? If you do, you'll see that the world in Messiah's time is very much divided into nations and Israel. It's not going to be one BIG nation called "Israel", even if Israel will be the head of the nations. G-d love variety and he hates when things are mixed to the point that one can't recognize G-d's original design.
ReplyDeleteUniqueness doesn't need to equal division or opposition to each other. G-d has made all kinds of creatures and they all share the same world, although they do not share it in the same way or in the same place. What this means is that unity doesn't mean that we ALL have to be exactly the same or that we even need worship together or in the same way. Our unity is to be based on mutual love for each other and for our common Redeemer, and not on our physical proximity or wholesale appropriation of one another's G-d-given identities and callings. Gentile assimilation into Jewish culture and vice versa runs contrary to G-d's design for both Israel and the nation (not that One-Law even assimilates into Jewish culture - it's a pseudo-Hebraic movement disconnected from the Jewish people). Do you understand?
"Jeruz, do you read and believe the prophets? If you do, you'll see that the world in Messiah's time is very much divided into nations and Israel. It's not going to be one BIG nation called "Israel", even if Israel will be the head of the nations. G-d love variety and he hates when things are mixed to the point that one can't recognize G-d's original design.
ReplyDeleteUniqueness doesn't need to equal division or opposition to each other. G-d has made all kinds of creatures and they all share the same world, although they do not share it in the same way or in the same place. What this means is that unity doesn't mean that we ALL have to be exactly the same or that we even need worship together or in the same way. Our unity is to be based on mutual love for each other and for our common Redeemer, and not on our physical proximity or wholesale appropriation of one another's G-d-given identities and callings. Gentile assimilation into Jewish culture and vice versa runs contrary to G-d's design for both Israel and the nation (not that One-Law even assimilates into Jewish culture - it's a pseudo-Hebraic movement disconnected from the Jewish people). Do you understand?"
Gene, what you are referring to in your post as a response to mine is called uniformity. I am not in anyway claiming that... I mean unity... Unity as fellow human beings, not different species... When a sojourner joined Israel, God said the sojourner was to be regarded as a native born, what happen to distinction? This is the unity I am talking about...
"Jeruz, do you read and believe the prophets? If you do, you'll see that the world in Messiah's time is very much divided into nations and Israel. It's not going to be one BIG nation called "Israel", even if Israel will be the head of the nations. G-d love variety and he hates when things are mixed to the point that one can't recognize G-d's original design."
ReplyDeleteYes, specifically to Malachi and Isaiah that say the Torah will go forth to the nations, one big happy Torah keeping family!
"Yes, specifically to Malachi and Isaiah that say the Torah will go forth to the nations, one big happy Torah keeping family!"
ReplyDeleteTorah has already G-d out to the nations - which is Messiah himself, the Word of G-d, the Living Torah. Torah includes the laws given to Noah and all of the nations, just as it also includes laws given specifically to Israel and ONLY to Israel.
"Torah has already G-d out to the nations - which is Messiah himself, the Word of G-d, the Living Torah. Torah includes the laws given to Noah and all of the nations, just as it also includes laws given specifically to Israel and ONLY to Israel."
ReplyDeleteSo according to your understanding why will the nations be responsible for keeping the Feast of Tabernacles?
I keep hearing all the time the terms "Uniqueness" or "unique calling" But no one ever bothers to explain what it means. That tells me something......
ReplyDelete"So according to your understanding why will the nations be responsible for keeping the Feast of Tabernacles?"
ReplyDeleteThis is so that they all come and worship the King in Jerusalem at least once a year, NATIONALLY (and building booths to live in while they are there makes sense - since they would be away from their homes).
"But no one ever bothers to explain what it means. That tells me something......"
ReplyDeleteWhy explain something that's so self-evident that only willful twisting of scriptures would nullify?
"This is so that they all come and worship the King in Jerusalem at least once a year, NATIONALLY (and building booths to live in while they are there makes sense - since they would be away from their homes)."
ReplyDeleteLOL, Gene, and you expect me to take you seriously? I give you an A- for trying.
Zion/Jeruz and others:
ReplyDeleteAll this talk of unity is misleading.
The Torah-Yeshua or One Law idea of unity is: the church is wrong and needs to close its doors and join our movement.
The replacement theology idea of unity is: Jews must become Gentiles to follow Yeshua (I call this reverse Galatianism).
What bilateral ecclesiology or co-community in Messiah is all about it acknowledging unity and diversity. A husband and wife are one without giving up diverse physical and spiritual features of manhood/womanhood. So Jews and Gentiles in Messiah can be one: unity without uniformity.
Derek Leman
"LOL, Gene, and you expect me to take you seriously? I give you an A- for trying."
ReplyDeleteNot sure why you find my explanation so humorous. Do you mean that they are not there to worship the King? I'll take A- (not a bad grade).
"The Torah-Yeshua or One Law idea of unity is: the church is wrong and needs to close its doors and join our movement."
ReplyDeleteI now quite a few people who claim one law and still attend a local church, nice try. I have to say though, this is the lousiest argument I have seen against One Law.
"The replacement theology idea of unity is: Jews must become Gentiles to follow Yeshua (I call this reverse Galatianism)."
Agreed.
"What bilateral ecclesiology or co-community in Messiah is all about it acknowledging unity and diversity. A husband and wife are one without giving up diverse physical and spiritual features of manhood/womanhood. So Jews and Gentiles in Messiah can be one: unity without uniformity."
Unity is good, but you offered a vague expression of what that unity looks like, which is a bit deceptive... When one dive's into the details of what this unity looks like, then they can see what is meant by unity.
Uniformity on the other hand, is a whole other story, and I don't think anyone has made a claim of uniformity here...
"Not sure why you find my explanation so humorous. Do you mean that they are not there to worship the King? I'll take A- (not a bad grade)."
ReplyDeleteLol, it really is not a bad grade!
No, your explanation was simply a diversion that gentiles would be responsible for keeping a Torah command specifically given to Israel.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteNot good enough. This is not a highschool debate. Please explain "uniqueness," since you love to use it so much?
Shalom Derek,
ReplyDeleteStill cannot get on you blog.
We have been through all this on your blog before. Your's and Kinzer's Husband and wife metaphor cannot work in reality, since Bilateral ecclesiology advocates the husband and wife have to live in separate homes. it is a nice platonic idea but no cigar here....
"We have been through all this on your blog before. Your's and Kinzer's Husband and wife metaphor cannot work in reality, since Bilateral ecclesiology advocates the husband and wife have to live in separate homes. it is a nice platonic idea but no cigar here...."
ReplyDeleteDan, Bilateral Ecclesiology offers two options, the one you are speaking of... and this one:
She can live in the house, but she has no say, she has to shut up and sit in the back and she cannot look like she lives there...
If she wants to live in the same home, she cannot be regarded as a native home liver, but as a foreigner, lol!
"She can live in the house, but she has no say, she has to shut up and sit in the back and she cannot look like she lives there... "
ReplyDeleteYour understanding of unity between Jews and Gentiles in Messiah is deeply flawed, Jeruz. You equate that imaginary "house" of unity with the church building where your "synagogue" meets and with the style of worship. However, you fail to see that the house is actually the WHOLE EARTH that we all share. Through Messiah I can have unity with that Chinese follower of Messiah in Bejing, without being with him, without speaking and singing in Mandarin, without taking up Chinese customs and cuisine.
If one analyzes your idea of equating unity between Jewish and Gentile believers (or any believers for that matter) with physical proximity and identical worship experience a bit closer, you and I can't ever have that kind of unity you are talking about - I don't live where you live, nor do I worship the way you do.
"If one analyzes your idea of equating unity between Jewish and Gentile believers (or any believers for that matter) with physical proximity and identical worship experience a bit closer, you and I can't ever have that kind of unity you are talking about - I don't live where you live, nor do I worship the way you do."
ReplyDeleteYou created another diversion argument over long distance unity... lol, we were talking about a wife and a husband, they are not in Beijing and another in Brazil...
If one lives in proximity of another is what you should have addressed.
"If one lives in proximity of another is what you should have addressed."
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with Christians (Gentiles) worshiping in churches, you do - this is because the One-Law movement is anti-Christianity (for the most part).
Zion,
ReplyDeletedon't hold your breath, I am still waiting for Gene to explain "uniqueness".......LOL!
I don't see my involvement with Messianism/One Law/One Torah whatever label you want to put on me as separating myself from believers attending a Sunday keeping Christian church. Some of the most passionate and faithful followers of Yeshua are traditional Christians, including my parents. Some Messianic Gentile groups have issues with "Christians" but they are drop dead wrong. Faith and devotion are in the heart. It's substance, not appearance.
ReplyDeleteThat said, traditional Christians are certainly welcome to worship with me and I don't doubt that I'm welcome to worship with them. You don't really have unity with a group if you say "We're united but just don't come into my house or place of worship...That's only for *us*".
Of course, I wouldn't force my presence on anyone who doesn't want me to worship God with them. That is what's being said here, isn't it?
"I don't see my involvement with Messianism/One Law/One Torah whatever label you want to put on me as separating myself from believers attending a Sunday keeping Christian church. "
ReplyDeleteWell, I suppose we can then say those Jews who choose to worship in a NON-One-Law congregations which cater primarily to a Jewish community should not be seen as separating themselves from Gentile believers in "Sunday-keeping Christian churches" or from the Christians who are participating in "One-Law" communities either.
Instead, we should recognize that we have different ministry goals, different culture, and differing interpretation of scripture. Our lack of physical proximity and cultural incompatibility, our differences in practice and beliefs should not distract us from greater spiritual unity in Messiah.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteDeleted. I guess you didn't take my warning seriously. Any more name calling, mud slinging will result in banning.
ReplyDeleteHave fun!
Judah, nothing I said in the comment you deleted was mudslinging, name-calling or even personal. Earlier in the discussion Derek described One-Law theology as "replacement theology," (Derek: "It is replacement theology, plain and simple.") but you didn't call him on it.
ReplyDeleteBut, your blog, your call. Have fun as well!
I did call Derek on it, just privately.
ReplyDeleteTake care.
I agree that Messianic congregations can be as different from one another as oranges and elephants, but I have the distinct impression that at least some Messianic Jewish congregations have a sign out front saying "No Gentiles Allowed!" I was going to say that this particular viewpoint promotes the creation of "separate but equal" congregations (Jewish and Gentile) similar to the days of segregation (remember when "colored people" had to use separate public restrooms and drinking fountains?), but would that be fair?
ReplyDeletePlease don't think that I'm petitioning to come visit your congregations. I've gotten warmer responses at the local Reform and Chabad synagogues in my community than those I'm seeing in some of the responses here. I suppose I'll have to write a blog to express my thoughts and opinions more completely, but it seems like something in the "fellowship" part of the "Messianic" community has been broken.
Does anybody remember when our primary focus was to worship God and not to engage in controversies?
>> Does anybody remember when our primary focus was to worship God and not to engage in controversies?
ReplyDeleteMost Messianic congregations do, I think. At our congregation, for example, controversial matters might be discussed when appropriate, but are never the focal point.
In real life, we're way more concerned about serving God, studying his word than these blog fights make us out to be. (Thank God!)
Judah,
ReplyDeleteFirst I want to apologize for the outburst. It was uncalled for. Gene has the tendency to incite, it looks like he is incapable of conducting an exegetical discussion. I am still waithing for his explanation of "uniqueness."
Secondly, I hear James and you loudly. We have to understand, as things stand today, that we can only defend our beliefs on the blogsphare.
I'd like to highlight something Dr. Schiffman said on his blog that really resonated with me:
ReplyDelete"People are more interested in issues that touch on their personal status in the Messianic Jewish world, or on particular religious requirements of that world. In a way this saddens me because issues of ethical behavior are where the rubber hits the road in Jewish life. Keeping Shabbat and Kashrut are great, and in fact, very important, but what good are they if I don’t honor my parents? How can I treat people like crap and claim to love God? Yeshua said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” We tend to go “yeah, yeah” when we hear instruction about loving one another, but I wonder how well we embrace the idea of loving one another."
I'd say that's also true of these theologies we debate about here at the Kineti blog.
Gentiles keeping God's commandments? Important issue, for sure, but what about loving one another?
Gentiles as part of Israel [or commonwealth thereof]? Very important topic, but what about loving one another?
These debates get too hot. Caught up in the heat of the moment, it disappears from our minds that the opponents we're debating are actually regular people who love the Lord.
Well said, Judah. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteDerek,
ReplyDeleteNo, I haven't yet heard it. Me and two others were in an insane bash fest, which was stupid, so I apologize.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteInteresting quote from Dr. Schiffman.
I think though, any and every misswa/'mitzva' is just as important, i.e. shouldn't be neglected for "weightier matters", but maintained with the other problems fixed.
And actually, Shabath is one of the most weightier matters of Torah. Pick up sticks outside, as one man did in Moshe's day, and you could get stoned to death (in the context of that time), and we're not talking about smoking a lot of pot haha.
I think the essence of what he is saying is very true. What he means certainly is true, but unfortunately many who make that argument go so far as to neglect the "less weightier" or supposedly "less weightier" matters of the Torah that they mention in their argument.
Also, I think an element of improper understanding of "love". I know you've heard this, probably a million times before, but bear with me.
Benei Yisrael are supposed to love other benei Yisrael. That is the full extent of such a requirement. However, a general respect is to be given to everyone in general, besides certain/specific people, usually meaning anti-Semites and enemies to the Jewish people, but including others.
Both love and general respect do not mean that people don't argue. I know most reading this probably know this, but I think it goes too far at times where its a subconscious thought that any disagreement automatically includes a dislike, hate, or anger. I think that is very much untrue, because if someone first doesn't care about someone else, why bother arguing? Of course, there are some people who would still bother arguing, but for others, it is based on the fact that they care for the specific people or group that they are arguing with. For those people, if they didn't care, they would just not say a word to begin with.
I think everyone would agree, argument, in each each side's individual view, is for the purpose of convincing the other side so that they may come to a better understanding; so therefore for the purpose of the other sides' ultimate benefit.
In fact, there is a halakha that I've studied in Ramba"m's Mishne Torah (not yet sure of where its root is in the Talmudh) that a Jew is permitted to correct another Jew until the point that the latter strikes the former, then is he exempt from the misswa of correcting his brother.
James:
ReplyDeleteImplying that we are like the leaders who enforced a policy of segregation in American history?
Shame on you.
Derek Leman
I'm not going to argue with you anymore, Derek. We each are known by our fruits and your words have allowed me to taste yours. If I comment on this matter further, I'll blog about it.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteDan, I consider the racist accusation slander, I won't have it in these posts. I don't believe UMJC or MJTI is racist like the segregationists of the 1950s.
ReplyDeleteJames didn't use that analogy, admitting it was unfair.
Sorry Judah,
ReplyDeleteNo apology. Discrimination is discrimination, no matter how it is sugar coated.
No apology expected. I'm just stopping all the name-calling on this blog and these comments, no matter how true the other side thinks it is. Kind of sick of that crap, honestly.
ReplyDeleteJudah and James,
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line here it is called "Messianic Judaism." It means this is a Jewish organization promoting Jewish agenda and we cannot fault them for that. They have the right to reject Gentile within their midst just like the state of Israel who was and is a Jewish state holding the rights to reject non-Jewish Aliya.
The problem here is the hypocricy of Kinzer and other who say that the ekklesia was presented by the Apostles as a "transnational" (which of course means "multi-cultural").
It is amazing how they want to have the cake and eat it too.
I see what you mean, Dan.
ReplyDeleteOne response is that while the assembly is indeed multi-national, there is nothing wrong with a Jewish-only section of that assembly. Then again, that starts sounding as if MJ is no different than, say, Korean Baptists, which is not what MJTI and friends are supposing.
Somewhere in there, MJTI argues Jews are unique (woot) and an assembly for Jews alone is what was intended all along (fail). And it comes back, full circle, and we're left wondering whether there is indeed a multi-national assembly, or is it Israel assembly + nations assembly that BE/2 Church theology supposes.
I did write a blog article to more fully express my questions and concerns about this conversation, but also to examine and question my own assumptions. I don't have all the answers, but I can be honest about that.
ReplyDeleteSince these are my personal observations, I can't represent my congregation by posting this article on their blog. I created a new blog for the occasion. Read more at Searching for the Light on the Path.