The most honest person in the world is the man on his deathbed. He’s entirely honest and frank. No facades. He speaks from the heart, and, knowing he has few words left, speaks only the essentials.
Moishe Rosen, the founder of Jews for Jesus (J4J) passed away last week, and the J4J website has posted Rosen’s parting words.
2 striking things in his final words:
- His repeated appeal for Jews to stay in Jews for Jesus and Christian churches.
- His perplexity at believers in Jesus following Judaism.
Have a look:
I'd like to encourage you to stay with Jews for Jesus.
…
As I go, one of the things that concerns me deeply is how much misunderstanding there is among believers. I never thought I would live to see the day when those who know the Lord and are born again were supporting the efforts of rabbis who, frankly, not only don't know Christ, but don't want to know Him.
He chides those followers of Yeshua who support non-Messianic Jewish ministries:
To be an honest ministry, it can only come from the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit can only indwell those who have the new birth and are born again. Therefore, I would urge you to think very seriously before you support any "ministry" that involves Jewish people and doesn't actually bring the gospel to the Jews.
Rosen is confounded by Messianic ministries that are pro-Judaism:
Likewise, I am concerned over something else that I never thought that I would see or hear and that is, Jews who have become believers in Jesus and have important positions in ministry yet feel that their primary purpose is to promote Jewishness and Judaism to the Jews.
On whether Jews can be saved outside of Yeshua, Rosen says,
I hope I can count on you to show love and respect for the Jewish people, but Jewishness never saved anybody. Judaism never saved anybody no matter how sincere. Romans 10:9 & 10 make it clear that we must believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus in order to be saved. There are no shortcuts. There is no easy way. Within Judaism today, there is no salvation because Christ has no place within Judaism.
On converting Jews to Christianity, Rosen says,
…we stand on the edge of a breakthrough in Jewish evangelism. Just a little more. Just another push. Just another soul - and we will have reached critical mass where we begin generating that energy that the whole world might know the Lord.
Rosen concludes with another statement meant to keep Jews in J4J and in Christian churches:
I would also encourage you to be faithful to those Bible-teaching, Bible-preaching churches that give spiritual food. More than ever, the church needs faithful members who can be an example to the young people coming in. Maybe there are some features about your church that keep you from being enthusiastic - look around and see if there might be a better church for you. If there is, join it and enjoy it. If your church is doing a lot right, then stay where you’re planted.
What stood out to me is the stark contrast between Jews for Jesus and, say, MJTI. Opposite ends of the spectrum. So different, an outside observer would not categorize them together.
| Jews for Jesus | Messianic Jewish organizations |
| Stay in your church | Join a synagogue, preferably Messianic |
| Stay where you’re planted | Preserve your Jewish heritage |
| Judaism never saved anyone | Keep the Torah |
| Save just one more soul | Engage with the greater Jewish world |
| Only born-again Christians receive the Holy Spirit | God’s spirit has always been at work among the chosen people, even those that reject Messiah. |
| Pro-Christianity | Pro-Judaism |
See the difference? We’re barely scratching the surface here.
If I could sum up Jews for Jesus in a sentence, it is this: Jews converting to Christianity. J4J stances are in perfect harmony with classical Christianity; one could expect to hear these same stances espoused by most any evangelical Christian preacher. “We must save just one more soul!”
(At least there was no mention of the jingle-jangle. 
J4J does not see a problem with Christianity, and suggests Jews ought to join Christian churches.
In contrast, Messianic organizations do see a problem with Christianity: it has deprecated God’s commandments, thus departing from the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament model.
Messianic Jewish organizations see another problem with Jews converting to Christianity: the loss of Jewish identity. Imagine if, by magic, all Jews of the world suddenly joined churches, there would be no Jews within a generation or two due to culture erasure and intermarriage. They’d all identify as Christians, and not Jews, and their descendants will forget. That’s a problem.
Despite all these differences, when people hear “Messianic Jew”, they think “Jews for Jesus”. J4J is the poster boy of the Messianic movement, like it or not.
And yet, some J4J stances ring true to my ears.
First, they’ve got a lot of Jews to follow Messiah.
Second, I share the concern of supporting Jewish orgs that not only reject Messiah, but actively suppress Messiah’s followers.
Third, the fruit I’ve seen from Messianic Jewish organizations hasn’t been great. When I think of UMJC and MJTI, the first thing that comes to mind is all the bickering, internal fighting, ministry alliances, all the marginalization of gentiles. Sorry, it’s true.
Lastly, I’ve seen many folks that go deep into Judaism, with my blessing and encouragement. Result? Many of them abandon Messiah, or belittle him to something short of what the gospels make him out to be. I’ve seen 4 or 5 examples of this now. If that’s the end result, what the hell are we doing anyways with this Judaism stuff? It makes me wonder whether Judaism isn’t the answer after all.
What do you fine blog readers think of Moishe Rosen’s last words?
As a Christian I don't want to get involved in the arguments between J4J and Messianic organisations. But if it wasn't for organistaions like this many Jews would never have become believers in Yeshua. They have also whether people like it or not always held Yeshua at the centre of what they do. Unfortunately many Messianics that I have come accross have not only minimised Yeshua but have also stripped him of his Divitity. Yes Messianic may have many problems with J4J but they did blaze the trail.
ReplyDeleteI hear you. They have brought many Jews to Yeshua, and have kept Yeshua at the center. That's something.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion if I made a comparison chart it would look something like this:
ReplyDeleteChristianity is heavily defined by belief.
Judaism is heavily defined by works.
Messianic Judaism is heavily defined by faith and works...
I don't necessarily think it is good to go to one extreme or the other, but somewhere in the middle... I grew up going to Synagogue and Church, and they both have something to offer... but I do view them as extremes... Although I side more with Judaism, as Christianity in my perspective has destroyed the Hebrew aspect of the Bible... I have met so many Christians who did not even know Jesus was a Jew, lol, I mean DAMN! Wake up!
Anyways, The apostles continued in Judaism, they did not form another religion, Christianity on the other hand was formed out of Anti-Semitism by a Gentile Leadership, so I find it a bit strange to want to continue in that.
Christianity holds 10% of the puzzle, granted its the most important piece, but Judaism holds 90% of the puzzle... lets put it together!
Judah, good summary on J4J and Rosen.
ReplyDelete"Lastly, I’ve seen many folks that go deep into Judaism, with my blessing and encouragement.
Result? Many of them abandon Messiah. Result? Many of them abandon Messiah..."
I know of VERY few Messianic Jews who abandoned Messiah as a result of embracing their heritage. However, I know of MANY Gentiles who either abandoned Yeshua completely (and converted to Judaism) or abandoned belief in Messiah's divinity as the result of diving head first into something that doesn't belong to them in the first place (which is the theme of the book of Galatians, addressed as it is to Gentiles, not Jews). And that only those that I personally know - I fathom to think of the real numbers.
What does that tell you?
"It makes me wonder whether Judaism isn’t the answer after all."
G-d is the answer, of course.
"And yet, some J4J stances ring true to my ears. First, they’ve got a lot of Jews to follow Messiah."
True, but so did the churches in general, money grabbing TV-preachers and fake-healers, and even vile abusive cults (Jacob Prasch stated that he "got saved" through a cult). Apparently the messenger is not what saves, but G-d. However, the messenger can also TURN AWAY many from G-d - and I believe that J4J turned off many Jews to Yeshua by their in-your-face radicalism-inspired tactics (Moshe Rosen once stated his admiration for Saul Alinsky and that his book "Rules for Radicals" inspired him: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704546304575260272332539534.html), their anti-Torah and anti-Judaism stance, and their assimilationist theology and fruit, their wholesale shuffling Jews into churches and away from their heritage - a damage that will take years to undo.
"Third, the fruit I’ve seen from Messianic Jewish organizations hasn’t been great. When I think of UMJC and MJTI, the first thing that comes to mind is all the bickering, internal fighting, ministry alliances, all the marginalization of gentiles. Sorry, it’s true."
ReplyDeleteJudah, you are once again confusing UMJC/MJTI low view and opposition to various pseudo-messianic, replacionist non-Jewish movements and theologies with something "internal". To be "internal" you have to be PART OF something.
No, I'm not confusing them. This post was purely about Jewish orgs and Jewish people believing in Yeshua, not any of the greater independent Messianic movement which includes -- praise God -- gentiles.
ReplyDeleteAll this makes me stop and think hard: maybe the focus on being a Judaism isn't the right focus at all. Maybe we're in error there.
"All this makes me stop and think hard: maybe the focus on being a Judaism isn't the right focus at all. Maybe we're in error there."
ReplyDeleteWhat would the other option be? And how would you reconcile that with the apostles continuing in Judaism?
"This post was purely about Jewish orgs and Jewish people believing in Yeshua, not any of the greater independent Messianic movement which includes -- praise God -- gentiles."
ReplyDeleteNo, I am confused. What conflicts within Mainstream Messianic Judaism are you talking about and are they greater, more severe and more embarrassing than what is seen in mainstream Judaism or Christianity? What standard do you go by to make such a judgement?
"All this makes me stop and think hard: maybe the focus on being a Judaism isn't the right focus at all. Maybe we're in error there."
Who is focusing on Judaism (implying that that G-d and Messiah is not THE main focus)? I am focusing on G-d and Messiah - and Judaism just happens to be just the only G-d ordained way for a Jew to live.
I tend to agree with your analysis, though I'm not in a position to criticize Rosen or his efforts. I don't doubt that he was absolutely sincere in his desire to bring his Jewish brother and sisters to a true understanding of the Messiah.
ReplyDeleteI don't particularly agree with his perspective, but I guess that goes with me being Messianic. The divisions between all the different shards and splinters of the redeemed community bother me, but they'll be there until Yeshua comes back to straighten us all out.
Fragmentation of belief systems come from human beings, not God.
Yeah. I'm not suggesting an alternative to Judaism.
ReplyDeleteJust wondering aloud: one goal of MJTI/UMJC Messianic Judaism is preservation of Jewish identity for Jewish believers in Yeshua. Sure sounds worthy, but when you weigh in those Jewish people -- families, even -- that end up rejecting Yeshua through their immersion into Judaism as provided by MJ, it gives me pause. Makes me wonder whether we need to focus less on the Judaism aspect. We are a different kind of Judaism -- a radically different kind. Maybe that needs to be taken into account.
And maybe I need to gather my thoughts before I go on rambling any further. :-)
(My last post was addressed to Gene and Zion.)
ReplyDeleteJudah,
ReplyDeleteYou said two things I want to comment on, first:
"First, they’ve got a lot of Jews to follow Messiah. "
If Jews aren't following the covenant of HaShem given specifically for them, the Torah, then that is the complete opposite of following HaMashiahh. This is where I see so many people make a huge mistake, and its because of Christian-theology programmed into their heads.
The bottom line, belief alone is nothing, belief with action is everything. "Zion/Jeruz" mentions something about this in his first comment, but he says it way too simplistically, and certainly is completely incorrect in saying that Judaism isn't quite as defined by belief. Judaism's stance is that belief in the Creator is foundational and the actions as a result and in tandem with those beliefs are what is of actual substance in this world.
And I think both you and Zion/Jeruz are in error in assuming that by belief that someone was something (not matter who or what that someone or something is) can alone account for anything when it is followed by actually opposing the substance of that belief.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse by saying "belief must be followed by deed", but what I'm really getting at here is beyond that. I'm talking about going against what Rabi Yehoshua` taught, did, and represented. Which were Torah, the misswoth, and Torah-Judaism respectively.
Let me get specific, using a specific practical example. If a Jew doesn't wrap tefillin, he's sinning. He's neglecting a misswa la`asoth (a to-do command). Messianic Judaism in most brands will tell Jews that such is not important, along with saying the same about a variety of other misswoth. Its like blind leading blind because most likely they are well-intentioned people, but they're teaching (in most cases) a completely faulty observance of the Torah. Which is not accurately, fully, or completely following Rabi Yehoshua`.
Following Rabi Yehoshua` is, more or less, following the nusahh of eress Yisrael, in accordance with the original halakhoth of the authorities of eress Yisrael. Its actually pretty simple, do the Torah in the manner that the Bathei Din established. A very simple and basic example is: why did Yehoshua` bless only the bread and not the fish? Because it is a halakha (according to both the way of the Jews of eress Yisrael and of Bavel) that when you eat a meal with bread, you simply say a brakha over the bread and recite birkath hamazon afterward, rather than saying an individual brakha on each food; this being primarily because of the importance of bread.
I don't hold expectations, or demand things from people, just stating simply what I know as the absolute truth about this issue, and I'd venture to say I should hold a little weight considering having been a cookie-cutter Messianic living among others of like view, I changed over a period of about 2 or so years into follower of mamash Torah-Judaism. My beliefs changed considerably, and my actions changed much more. Not trying to sound like a ssadiq, just saying, I'm not a simplistic fool, and I changed my beliefs and deeds for a reason. And one thing is true: if I felt any less spiritual or any less connected to my Creator in any way, I wouldn't have changed. A personal relationship with the Creator, which is incorrectly deemed something void or lacking in Judaism, is high on my list of priorities, and is something I've found in a more complete way within Torah-Judaism.
-Aaron
The other thing I wanted to comment on was the last 10 or so sentences of the post, especially, of course, the bolded one. But I already did that in the process of my first comment.
ReplyDeleteI knew someone would call me out on the "bringing Jews to Messiah" thing. :-)
ReplyDeleteI agree that following Yeshua while rejecting God's commandments is an error. That person isn't really following Yeshua.
However, I reject the notion that Christians are necessarily lawless. What I find is many people who are honestly following Jesus are actually doing the weightier matters of the law. That counts for something. So an atheist Jew who becomes a Christian through Moishe Rosen's organization, well, for that at least I am grateful.
But on the whole, I agree with your sentiments about converting Jews to Christianity.
Ok. I guess I need to know:
ReplyDeleteIs MJ an extension of Judaism - Thus exclusive to Jews and converts..
Or is MJ directed at all those who believe like minded?
I understand J4J is controversial, but I have never seen that in any way associated with MJ. I think anti-MJM people try to associate J4J with the MJM to discredit it. K. Thats enough for now.
Mike
I find that so many questions could be answered if chapter 10 of Acts would be read before chapter 15.
ReplyDeleteOne portion of that chapter which should be of some interest to the direction this discussion has taken:
"Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!"
And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.
Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter;
he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea."
Without any knowledge of the Messiah and His redemptive work, we find this Roman soldier's prayers and acts of charity coming into YHWH's very presence, and not only being accepted, but resulting in a messenger being sent to speak directly to him.
You all know the rest of the story.
So here's my question;
Was this the start of Gentile Christianity or did this begin some type of quasi-Judaism from which Christianity eventually evolved?
Peter and the gang were absolutely amazed that YHWH had decided to pour out His Spirit on the Gentiles.
I guess the thought hadn't crossed their minds just yet.
People, Jew or non-Jew it doesn't matter, who come to Yahshua, being drawn by the Father, and put their trust in Him receive eternal life as promised.
J4J understood this and worked accordingly to fulfill the commission given by Messiah.
Besides, some of their songs were pretty cool.
Efrayim
Good points, Efrayim.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, there is some great music from J4J. Israel's Hope comes out of them, if I remember. One of my favs. :-)
@Mike,
ReplyDeleteI believe the Messianic movement is a move of God among Jews and gentiles, drawing Jews to Messiah and gentiles to God's righteous commandments.
However, this particular post had to do with only Jewish organizations with the Messianic movement, which includes J4J.
Efr- I just read that again last night - Acts - Tryin to wrap my head around what Peter and the boys must have been going thru. What a crazy time!
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think, while they were spreading the word, I cannot believe they were involved with the creation of a "new" ideology, or "gentile Christianity."
I may be wrong, but why would they throw away so many of the things that encompass their religious doings? Isnt that what Christianity has done?
Mike
Sorry Judah. I dont mean to comment out of line. Sometimes I see something and I go off topic.
ReplyDeleteI should pay a bit more attention.
Mike
Judah,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"However, I reject the notion that Christians are necessarily lawless. What I find is many people who are honestly following Jesus are actually doing the weightier matters of the law. That counts for something. So an atheist Jew who becomes a Christian through Moishe Rosen's organization, well, for that at least I am grateful."
Christians who are not racially Jewish are not deemed righteous or unrighteous by the standard of the 613 misswoth of Torah. The covenant of Torah is a specific covenant made only with Israel and is intended to be kept in the Land of Israel. Its a set of guidelines in order to produce a certain kind of individual and a certain kind of society. That is specific and unique only to Israel, not to any other nation.
Therefore those who are not Jewish nor on the road to becoming Israelites are deemed righteous or unrighteous by whether or not they obey the various nowadays-applicable misswoth of Torah. Instead, all nations by default are held to the 7 base Noahide Laws (which are still laws of the Torah, found in the Torah), and that is derived from those 7.
The debate of whether or not the purpose of believing in Rabi Yehoshua` is meant to make every non-Jew who "believes" in him into an Israelite or not is questionable. What is clear, however, eternal life is given to those who believe in the Creator and to do what the Creator specifies for them to do (for an Israelite, that which is applicable among the 613 misswoth of Torah, and all that is derived from them; for any other person, the 7 Laws of Noahh and all that is derived from them).
And I agree, there are some sincere Christians who are very pure of heart and motive. Even if they may be still in error in some ways, if they're doing all they know how to in regards to serving the Creator the best they can, I am not someone who can pronounce them damned to hell (really, nor can I or should I pronounce anyone as such). That's left to the righteous judgment of the Creator.
Regarding my third paragraph above, I believe belief in Rabi Yehoshua` should be viewed as an aid to reaching the goal of complete belief in the Creator and adherence to what is required of the given individual.
ReplyDeleteMike,
ReplyDeleteI don't think they were trying to do either one. It was more of a rhetorical question. Peter didn't explain anything beyond the very simplest of truths concerning repentance and Messiah at that first meeting.
What took place after that I have no idea. Peter and company were so taken aback by the proceedings that all he could do was to put those Gentiles in the waters of immersion and wait to see what happened next.
But it was many years later that Peter recalls that day, and his recollection became the turning point for the discussion going on in Jerusalem regarding all those Gentiles who were both returning and coming to trust in YHWH - chapter 15.
While none of us know what Peter may have thought exactly, those events at Cornelius's house certainly left an impression on him.
I believe many of the members of the J4J organization had a similar impression of their experience with Messiah.
Efrayim
Let me throw a monkey wrench into all this. Rabbinic Jews don't follow Yeshua/Jesus because they don't believe he's the Messiah. The way traditional Christianity portrays hi, I can see their point.
ReplyDeleteHowever, every observant Jews looks forward to the coming of the Messiah. They just don't know his name and in some ways, Christianity has made sure (by Gentilizing Jesus) that Jews won't consider Yeshua as the Messiah.
If you're Jewish and you long for the Messiah to come, who are you looking to?
I'll say this right up front -- forgive my ignorance if this is just an ignorant question.
ReplyDeleteAll this seems to make faith in the one supreme God so difficult when the Bible seems to make it so easy. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Why must Jewishness (or not) make that difficult? Is this an argument about keeping the law in addition to ones' faith? Clearly that's not necessary -- both Peter and Paul teach this.
Maintaining a person's heritage is important, but it affects one's salvation not at all. My family came from Holland three generations back, but I am American first and foremost. I am American with a Dutch heritage. Why isn't a Jew who believes that Jesus is the Messiah a Christian with a Jewish heritage?
To me the words of Moishe Rosen point to these questions. What are you first? If it's anything other than a follower of Jesus, no matter what name you put on it, then you are lost. If you are a believer first then stay in the church etc...
What am I missing?
Messianic Jews are not and should not be defined by JFJ or MJTI.
ReplyDeleteThere is no one-size-fits-all - we are all individuals with very different personal lives and situations. We are neither bound to attend church or synagogue - what matters is our relationship with Yeshua.
As communities we have unity in Yeshua. There's a lot we have to work out for ourselves and with our brothers and sisters in Messiah, and there's even more we have to humbly accept that we'll never know.
"I am American with a Dutch heritage. Why isn't a Jew who believes that Jesus is the Messiah a Christian with a Jewish heritage?"
ReplyDeleteIt's quite simple, Ryan. I am sorry if I am a bit direct, but if all the Dutch disappeared tomorrow by assimilating with, say the Germans, how will this affect anything in G-d's scheme of things when it comes to all the prophecies in the Bible and the coming of Messiah? In no way at all, really. However, let's assume that all the Jews disappeared tomorrow - unless you believe that the Church is the "New Israel" and all the prophecies are merely cute spiritual parables referring to no actual future events, places or peoples, you have a major problem on your hands.
This is why I am a Jew and not anything [fill in the blanks] with a "Jewish heritage." Being a Jew, ANY JEW, at least as far as G-d is concerned, should by default mean that you await to receive the redemption through the true promised Messiah. No need for additional adjectives to be added to a "Jew" to describe that indelible fact.
Gene, I appreciate the directness. It keeps things clear and straight forward.
ReplyDeleteI totally get what you're saying, Jews have a special place throughout scripture. If all Jews disappeared we'd all be in quite a predicament.
But what I don't get is the substance of my question(s). Why are there even questions put forth like do we attend a church or synagogue? Should be support groups that don't believe in Messiah? Maybe I'm too simplistic and/or see things too black and white. Scriptures say not to forsake the assembling of the people. Okay that means I go somewhere, whatever it's called. The church or synagogue question seems to be analogous to being a member of the National Rifle Association when you don't believe guns are okay, but are a member because you used to be a gun owner. Does this make sense?
I'm just saying that this same methodology of looking at these various issues could be used to bring clarity to the situation. Why is it that being Jewish has to make these various issues difficult. The words in the scripture are the same for Jewish believers as other Christians. Again, I may be looking at things too simplistically and look forward to further understanding.
"Why is it that being Jewish has to make these various issues difficult."
ReplyDeleteRyan... being Jewish makes just about ALL things difficult, both in life and faith. Why? I suppose it has something to do with G-d choosing Israel and setting her apart for Himself, and the rest of the world hating that fact. One just has to look at all the murders and persecutions that befell that Jewish people, with 1/3 of all Jews being wiped out just 75 years ago in a span of mere 5 years, to know that things are a bit more difficult for a Jew.
"The words in the scripture are the same for Jewish believers as other Christians."
That's where I must disagree. Acts 15 is just one small example of the fact that while the words are there for EVERYONE to read and learn from, not all words in the scriptures are addressed to everyone or apply the same to everyone.
Gene, thanks for the further response. There have been many people throughout history who, for whatever reason, feel threatened or can't just accept the fact that God chose a particular people to reveal himself to and through. Some people are just that insecure I guess. Furthermore Satan has set himself as an enemy of Israel just because God loves Israel. So I understand what you're saying about things being difficult. Personally, I'm just glad that God provided a pathway to Him since none of us measure up to His standards.
ReplyDeleteI just re-read Acts 15. Do you mean to say that gentiles are required to follow only a subset of what Jews are required? If so, I didn't get that from the passage. To me the essence of the passage is contained in verses 9-11
9) He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10) Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11) No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Sorry for belaboring the point -- I'm just wanting to understand this. Ever since I came upon this blog I haven't been able to "get" the perspective that some of the subject matter has been about.
"I just re-read Acts 15. Do you mean to say that gentiles are required to follow only a subset of what Jews are required? If so, I didn't get that from the passage."
ReplyDeleteThe essence of Acts 15 is better understood taking both the preceding verses and the ones after into accout. One must first understand WHY the council had to be convened. Some Jewish believers from the Pharisees believed that Gentiles coming to faith in G-d must convert AND observed Torah as given to Moses. However, Acts 15 shows that this was not G-d's intention at all.
To put the final nail in the coffin, read ahead a bit in Acts Acts 21:24-25, you'll see that James clarifies that same letter to Paul - Jews, including Paul, must continue to walk obediently to Mosaic Torah, while Gentiles didn't have to live as Jew or follow Mosaic Torah, apart from a few things mentioned in the letter that were always an abomination to G-d, even since Noah and the flood (I am not talking about general morality here, since murder was murder since even the time of Kain and Able.)
"Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you [Paul, a Jew] yourself are living in obedience to the Torah. As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." (Acts 21:24-25)
I think the above can't get clearer in regards to what was expected of whom and what was not.
"He made no distinction between us and them"
In faith and salvation, there's no difference - otherwise what was the point of the letter, and later James' expectation that Paul observe Torah while Gentiles didn't?
Ryan,
ReplyDeleteExactly. Look at the confrontation that occurred between Paul and Peter that is written about in the letter to the congregation in Galatia.
The essence of the whole argument comes down to the question that Paul put before Peter;
"If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, why are you forcing the Gentiles to live like Jews?"
I'll leave out that bit of sarcasm that follows, but you get the point.
Turn the question around and see what it looks like;
"If you, who are a Gentile, live like a Jew and not like a Gentile, why are you forcing the Jews to live like Gentiles?"
It doesn't work either way. If there are no distinctions between people when they come to Messiah, why should there be after the fact? We can set aside our differences for the sake of salvation, but take them back up again when we try to enter into fellowship together?
Here is the complication you are running into and your frustration is well noted.
It is sad to see the problem becoming larger rather than smaller.
Efrayim
Gene wrote:
ReplyDelete"One must first understand WHY the council had to be convened. Some Jewish believers from the Pharisees believed that Gentiles coming to faith in G-d must convert AND observed Torah as given to Moses. However, Acts 15 shows that this was not G-d's intention at all. "
Gene, do you agree that one is saved by circumcision according to the custom of Moses?
"Gene, do you agree that one is saved by circumcision according to the custom of Moses?
ReplyDeleteZion/Jeruz, your question is a red herring one because not based on the text. The Pharisee believers didn't indicate that circumcision is what saved, instead what they said that unless one underwent the procedure, one COULDN'T get saved by Yeshua - meaning they thought that it was a step in the process of receiving FREE salvation from G-d through Yeshua, not the the procedure saved anyone. That's a huge difference.
"Zion/Jeruz, your question is a red herring one because not based on the text. The Pharisee believers didn't indicate that circumcision is what saved, instead what they said that unless one underwent the procedure, one COULDN'T get saved by Yeshua - meaning they thought that it was a step in the process of receiving FREE salvation from G-d through Yeshua, not the the procedure saved anyone. That's a huge difference."
ReplyDeleteOk, so do you agree that one cannot receive salvation from Yeshua without being circumicsed?
"Ok, so do you agree that one cannot receive salvation from Yeshua without being circumicsed?"
ReplyDeleteHa??? Of course I don't agree that one must be circumcised to receive salvation from G-d through Yeshua. Yeshua came to save BOTH the circumcised (Jews) and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) - and as you remember, Paul wrote that each should remain as is (1 Corinthians 7:18), which naturally includes the rest of Torah applicability.
"Ha??? Of course I don't agree that one must be circumcised to receive salvation from G-d through Yeshua. Yeshua came to save BOTH the circumcised (Jews) and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) - and as you remember, Paul wrote that each should remain as is (1 Corinthians 7:18), which naturally includes the rest of Torah applicability."
ReplyDeleteI agree it is funny to even consider the thought... the point is the bible never teaches that circumcision saves, or is a necessary tool for conversion/salvation... but man does, such as the Pharisees in the context of Acts 15 and of course Orthodox Judaism does teach conversion by circumcision, Brit Milah, Hatafat Dam Brit...
I think one has to conclude that Acts 15 when addressing circumcision, is not speaking of what is laid out in scripture as correct, but what is laid in the additions that were added or interpreted... Thus we have to conclude the bible held circumcision in a different understanding than what the Pharisees offered. Would you agree?
Gene, Efrayim,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your responses. I think I'm beginning to understand now. I also appreciate your patience and taking the time to educate [a gentile]. :)
This is all quite interesting. I guess I have been coming at all of this from the perspective where keeping the Torah wasn't even on the radar. Forgive this ignorance, but honestly the thought process was "that's something only for pre-Jesus times and for Orthodox Jews." Hopefully that doesn't offend (it's not intended to); my guess is that many, many non-Jews have this same thought because I've been around the block more than a time or two, especially in Christian circles, and have never heard this.
You have opened my eyes here. I'll have to do some research and some reading... Any suggestions?
Ryan, contact me directly, and we'll talk about this. Use the form here: http://www.bethavinu.org/contact-us
ReplyDeleteGene, you Judaizer......
ReplyDeleteKidding, of course. =)
"And yes, there is some great music from J4J. Israel's Hope comes out of them, if I remember. One of my favs. :-)"
ReplyDeleteMinor point here: Israel's Hope came out of Beth Messiah Congregation in Rockville, MD.
I've been @ BMC since I was 3(26 years)...we've never been associated w/ J4J in anyway.
Just had to clear that up.
=-)
Rosen chided a ministry that does not involve itself with the messiah.. which includes Judaism. However, I have read a couple of books authored by Abraham Twerski. I find them insightful, and helpful in my quest to better myself.
ReplyDeleteI realize he, and other Rabbis, do not believe in the Messiah, but how can these teachings actually hurt me?
Mike
Jon, thanks for the correction. The reason I thought they were J4J was that is is through J4J's Purple Pomegranate productions that Israel's Hope music is sold through. But maybe they're sold elsewhere....
ReplyDeleteThat's cool you've been there since 3 years old - wow! Not too many lifelong Messianics out there. I've been a Messianic since I was a preteen, but you go back even further. :-)
@Mike,
ReplyDeleteDr. Michael Brown, who would likely align with Moishe Rosen, has some answers to that question. I don't necessarily agree with their views on rabbinic things, but it's out there for consideration.
I am surprised no one has commented on the Messianic Israel movement...the MIA and the LACK of infighting,etc. within. Anyone read Batya Wooten's books? Heard of Bill Cloud? Brad Scott? Mike Clayton? There is a wonderful, peaceful balance stemming from, what is in my humble opinion, a true circumcision of the heart and love for Israel, the apple of The Fathers eye.
ReplyDeleteHey thanks for playing Lenny and Varda, great stuff! Blessings!!
"I am surprised no one has commented on the Messianic Israel movement...the MIA and the LACK of infighting,etc. within. "
ReplyDeleteWait, I get it - that's because Gentiles (MIA) got their stuff together, a peaceful and a gracious bunch, and get along with each other splendidly, demonstrating a true example of brotherhood, while those Jews (UMJC), well, they are Jews... 'nough said, right?
Gene, Judah is our (MIA) brother. If folks would get off the defensive, (and Father knows, who can blame them) and realize that there are a large number of non-Jews who love the Jewish people. I personally believe that there is not a race of people, God's CHOSEN people, who have been more persecuted than the Jews. It is long past time that the persecution and hatred, the anti-semitic sentiments were squashed for once and for all time. It never ceases to amaze me how so much of the world blames Israel for being the aggressor, the "bad guy". I may disagree with my brother Judah, but in my heart I feel no animosity toward him. The plight and suffering of the Jewish people breaks my heart. I weep for Judah,as do my fellow MIA, many of whom, by the way, are not "non-Jews". I so look forward to the day that these racial terms, which only serve to divide us, are never spoken again. We are one in Yeshua and it is high time we unite as brothers and sisters against those are out to destroy beloved Israel. I left the church when I discovered the truth of what happened in tne centuries following the death and ressurection of Yeshua, and now am myself persecuted by many in my former "church" when they learn, for instance, that that Bible I carry is titled "Complete Jewish Bible", that I celebrate the Yahweh's feasts, etc. Yeshua is not gonna return until we unite in love and obedience to the God of Israel! Aren't you fed up with all this fussing and fighting? As for me, I stand for a united Israel and love for Judah! BTW ,I use anonymous b/c I am not computer-savvy enough to figure out how to do a name and all. Now go back and read your own words,Gene. You said it, not me. Please don't judge me unfairly.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I don't for a second believe in Batya's "Two-House" fairy tales (her invention of Gentile Christians really being the "lost tribes" of Israel). Not only are they laughable and contradictory to the Bible, history, science and plain common sense, but to most Jews find her repackaging of the ridiculous British Israelitism's ideology/theology of the bygone era as one of the worst examples of Replacement Theology yet perpetrated on the Jewish people and an affront to Messianic Jews in particular.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting. I, too, believe that Ezekiel 37 is a future event and that the two sticks have not yet been reunited.
I recommend reading John McKee's 2 House website: Two House News Network. John is a moderate voice in the Two House community, and perhaps the most scholarly and knowledgeable. You'd do well to read his material.
Ezekiel 37:19 "tell them YHWH Elohim says this: 'I will take the stick of Yosef, which is in the hand of Efrayim, together with the tribes of Israel who are joined with him, and put them together with the stick of Y'hudah and make them a single stick, so that they become one in my hand.'"
ReplyDeleteDoesn't sound like fairy tale to me. In fact it looks very much like an inevitable event over which Efrayim of Y'hudah will not have any control.
It seems to me that willing participation in the plan of YHWH would be a wise choice.
Efrayim
Should read:
ReplyDeleteDoesn't sound like fairy tale to me. In fact it looks very much like an inevitable event over which Efrayim and Y'hudah will not have any control.
"Doesn't sound like fairy tale to me. In fact it looks very much like an inevitable event over which Efrayim and Y'hudah will not have any control."
ReplyDeleteEphraimites have never been lost, and neither have been any of the tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The Jewish people of yesterday and today constitute ALL of the tribes of Israel, which means that Northern and Southern Kingdoms of Israel have been reunited by G-d already (long ago), since Israel today (or even Israel of more than two thousand years ago) is no longer divided into two warring kingdoms. To believe otherwise is to promote the old British Israelism and Worldwide Church of G-d nonsense.
There's a great article, spot on article, about the Ephraimites on Rick Ross' site: http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general776.html
ReplyDeleteIt also describes the antisemitism of Two-House's founders, the Wootens, including their questioning the very identity of modern Jews, or being upset that Jews called their new state "Israel" instead of "Judah"! Just WOW!
Don't let enemies of Messianic Israel characterize them.
ReplyDeleteFor clarity on what MIA believes and their response to accusations of replacement theology, see their document The Importance of Inclusion Theology.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteNice link to the MIA. That should just about clear that up.
Unless someone is just not interested in the truth.
Efrayim
In agreement with Gene, there is a 'Ephraimite elistism' among MIA and likeminded organizations.
ReplyDeleteThere is a huge misunderstanding and lack of understanding Judaism.
Since John McKey is on here, able to read this, this isn't lashon hara`. His material is much the same.
Among these groups there is little to no real understanding of Judaism in general. The "NT" is looked at completely out of its proper context of the very distinct culture and religion of the Jewish people. That's because these people think their version of the historical figure Yehoshua` was a heretic like the Karaites/Sadducees/Beothusians(sp!?) who don't believe in the Oral Torah. Of course, if you look at the "NT" writings, the people who actually persecuted the followers of Rabi Yehoshua` (and he himself) were doing so because of them proclaiming beliefs of the Oral Torah like resurrection of the dead, the existence of the next world, etc. The Sadducees believed no such thing because they rejected Oral Torah.
Shaul even admits that he was a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, and was on trial by the political-Sanhedrim (half comprised of Sadducees) because of his belief and proclaimation of the Oral-Torah concept of resurrection of the dead. Read for yourself, he says it himself quite plainly...
Interestingly, such groups as MIA and similar believe in these aspects of Oral Torah only because they see them in the "NT". They miss other readily apparent aspects of Oral Torah in the "NT" because they don't know enough about Judaism or Jewish life in general to have any idea.
Its much harder to try to tell them anything like this, because they don't know enough about the issue at hand (Judaism, Jewish life), and immediately fall back on pre-set programmed anti-Judaistic teachings from either Christian or Messianic sources.
In defence of such people and organizations (labeled "Ephraimite"), I believe many of them are simply on path to returning to Torah-Judaism. I can't say they have absolutely no truth to their claim, I don't think their claim comes from nowhere or that they have no legitimacy.
ReplyDeleteAnd against the UMJC and similar organizations and like-minded people. Its not as if they have any sort of legitimate observance, in many cases, or any realistic aim. They're a bunch of sort-of Conservative (or maybe some of them are kind-of Orthodox) level-observance people, probably mostly Jewish, who sit in exile and don't actually do much of what Rabi Yehoshua` taught and would want striven for.
Things like returning to the Land of Israel and implementing Torath Eress Yisrael are things not even on the radar for such groups, it seems.
I really have a huge skepticism for anyone who claims they follow "Yeshua". Usually they're following their own version which is usually far off from the actual man, and there's tons of different versions among all the non-cohesive groups and splinter groups who all fight among themselves like a bunch of Prostestants.
Just my speculation on the honest reality of the "Messianic" movement in general, of which I am not a part. So don't be mad at me. =)