This past week (and a little more) in the Messianic blogosphere, plus related news items.
- Boundaries between Messianic Jews and Gentiles – Derek Leman boots a gentile from his congregation because the gentile man kept parts of the Torah which Derek’s theology deems specific to Jews. I’m being uncharitable, so go read it yourself.
- Basic Questions – Daniel, a Messianic blogger who has long believed Yeshua is not divine, now finds himself questioning whether Yeshua is the Messiah. In my experience, this is where the road leads for those who say Yeshua is something less than what the gospels make him out to be: the glorified, risen Son of God.
- Conversions to Messianic Judaism? – New Messianic blogger Daniel Nessim posts his thoughts on whether gentiles drawn to Messiah and Torah should be converting to Messianic Judaism.
- “Messianic” growing in popularity – Darren has started blogging again, this time posting some personal anecdotes suggesting this Messianic thing is growing:
- Tips for a smooth-sailing Passover – Aaron Eby has some tips to make sure your Passover seder goes smoothly.
- Passover, Easter, and God’s Seal – My older brother Jesse has written a piece on how Easter eventually came to supplant Passover, and how this relates to prophecies in Ezekiel and Revelation.
- Was King David a Priest Forever? – A excellent rebuttal to the claim that Psalm 110 is about someone other than Messiah Yeshua.
- Midrash, etc. – Rabbi Carl Kinbar has started blogging. Kinbar is an intellectual, scholarly Messianic Jewish mind, and is the Provost of the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute (MJTI).
- Eating At the Master’s Table, Part III – James encourages us: “Before any of the ‘doing’ of Passover, stop doing anything. Like any other holiday, Passover can be filled with a seemingly endless stream of “things to do” and we can be caught up in the ‘chores’ of Passover so much that we completely miss the meaning.”
- Sacrifices, the Older and the Newer – Derek Leman discusses sacrifices in the Tenakh and additionally dissects some issues raised through textual criticism.
Podcasts
- Pastoral Epistles – John McKee has started a study on a rarely-covered topic in the Messianic movement: the pastoral epistles of the New Testament.
Forgive me, fine blog readers, if I have missed any blogs/podcasts/video blogs. Having been ill recently, I wasn’t able to stay current on all the Messianic blogs.
In any case, enjoy these tasty bracha bits!
Derek's blog is just apalling. It is a perfect case of "Eved Ki yimloch"---A slave that became a king.
ReplyDeleteIt is a sad day when a so-called "converted" Gentile is deciding what is right or not in a Jewish organization (they call themselves MJ, don't they?). A classic case of a Gentile who wants to be more Jewish than a Jew.
I wonder what else would I see in my life time from a group that is willing to ditch any Scriptural teaching in order to advance an unacheivable task-to become a part of Judaism...OH, well.....
Dan, what an insulting comment you made about a fellow believer.
ReplyDeleteDerek did a great job, both in handling the situation in his congregation and tackling the boundaries issues. I wish more leader in Messianic Judaism had the guts to stand up for their faith and their congregations. I'd trade a few Jews I don't care to know for this convert.
"A classic case of a Gentile who wants to be more Jewish than a Jew."
No Dan, but that certainly is the case for many who advocate the One-Law theology while looking down on those, as the call them, "rabbinic Jews".
Interesting links as usual. I don't have time or space to get into it, but your brother's "origins of Easter" piece basically republishes some very popular but flawed ideas and misconceptions. One brief clue: Anglo-Saxon was not the language of the Church in 100 a.d., 200 a.d., or 325 a.d., or for that matter 500 a.d.. The word used to describe the festival was either the same word or a derivative of the same word used for passover. Greek- Pascha. Latin- Paschae. So even Constantine's screed originally written in Greek or Latin never refers to "Easter".
ReplyDeleteThat's the beginning of the unraveling of the theory.
Todd
@Todd,
ReplyDeleteBy all means post to his comments.
He quotes Constantine's decree there, you'll see the emperor made a very clear distinction between Passover of the Jews and Easter of the Christians:
When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was thought particularly unworthy to follow the customs of the Jews who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter.
We ought not therefore to have anything in common with the Jew. And consequently in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jew. For it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them They do not possess the truth in this Easter question, for in their blindness and repugnance to all improvements they frequently celebrate two Passovers in the same year.
Eating at the Master's table - is the best piece I have seen on the Passover this year. We need to focus on experiencing Him, the Perfect Lamb and not on the busy preparations.
ReplyDeleteC.F.
First of all, thank you C.F. for your very kind comments about my blog regarding Passover. I am indeed humbled and grateful.
ReplyDeleteAs far as converting to Messianic Judaism, I'll include here the comments I made on the Messianic Marzipan blog:
While the practice of Messianic Judaism has a decidedly Jewish flavor (depending on the congregation you happen to visit), the theology of Messianic Judaism is, for lack of a better term, Christian. If you peel away the layers of the onion and compare the two, Messianics and Christians are more alike than unalike. If you accept Christ as Lord and Savior, have you not accepted the Messiah?
So Derek is a Gentile who dresses 24/7 as a Jew and observes halachah, but then he can't stomach Gentiles who sometimes dress as Jews and observe halachah?
ReplyDeleteWhat's the dividing line here?
It clearly isn't whether Gentiles can keep Torah or dress like Jews, it's whether they have an MJRC conversion to justify it by.
"So Derek is a Gentile who dresses 24/7 as a Jew and observes halachah"
ReplyDeleteDoes Derek dress as a Jew 24/7 or is this statement a hyperbole not based on any facts?
Lol, fair point. Basically, he dresses frum.
ReplyDeleteThat's fine but what makes him an Orthodox Jew, and the next guy to be a Gentile in a costume?
"It clearly isn't whether Gentiles can keep Torah or dress like Jews, it's whether they have an MJRC conversion to justify it by."
ReplyDeleteJoe, I think you got it all wrong. It's about non-Jews appropriating Jewish observances and taking on Jewish identity OUTSIDE of any Jewish community AND without respect for established Jewish norms (halakha) and recognized authorities (respected "judges"). Whether or not you have some personal beef with MJRC is irrelevant - I am sure they don't claim any authority over you.
I don't know if Derek completed his so-called "conversion," but for Orthodox judaism his conversion is exactly what meat sacrificed to idols is for Paul, NOTHING!
ReplyDeleteI know of congregatrional leaders under the UMJC who are not halachically Jews who wear Tzitziot and Kippot and have the chutzpah to deny the same thing to Gentiles....OH, well.....Confusion abounds.....
It's Gentiles who dress like Jews telling other Gentiles not to dress like Jews - totally banal.
ReplyDelete>> taking on Jewish identity OUTSIDE of any Jewish community AND without respect for established Jewish norms (halakha) and recognized authorities (respected "judges").
ReplyDeleteFor a minute there, I thought you were talking about the Messianic Jewish movement.
After all, the Jewish world largely has contempt for Messianics, we exist apart from the greater Jewish world. Belief in Yeshua is contrary to the Jewish norms, contrary to the wisdom of Judaism's sages for the last 2000 years.
But we still follow Yeshua and embrace Torah because it's God at work. A shame some would deny the same to gentiles.
"Confusion abounds....."
ReplyDeleteThat I agree with 100%. It's a mess to have no standards.
"but for Orthodox judaism his conversion is exactly what meat sacrificed to idols is for Paul, NOTHING!"
I am sure he's aware that his conversion will not be recognized by anyone outside of Messianic movement. Then again, the Israeli Rabbinate doesn't even recognize most Orthodox conversions originating outside of Israel (other than those who are affiliated specifically with them), I am not even talking about Reform or Conservative conversions - neither of which are recognized by ANY Orthodox. So, what's your point, Dan?
My point Gene? You haven't figured this out yet? Messianic Judaism UMJC style is a movement standing outside of notmative Judaism dying to get in...This is my point....Nothing but throwing Yeshua under the bus will get them there, not even throwing Gentiles under the bus.....
ReplyDeleteMesssianic Judaism UMJC, and MJTI style is living in a fantasy land, none of their teaching or theology is even remotely grounds in reality, starting with this Bilaters ecclesiology hoax.
>>Nothing but throwing Yeshua under the bus will get them there, not even throwing Gentiles under the bus.....
ReplyDeleteBingo.
Dan and Judah...
ReplyDeleteBoth of your are far removed from mainstream Messianic Jewish works or our efforts to bring Yeshua to the Jewish people, and your void-of-facts accusations about Messianic Jews "throwing Yeshua...and Gentiles under the bus" reflect this sad fact. Influenced by pet ideologies that are antagonistic to both Messianic and mainstream Judaism and sitting comfortably on the sidelines in your self-segregated communities throwing rocks at those who actual labor, you've positioned yourself against both the vision and efforts of thousands of Jewish followers of Messiah who work tirelessly to make Messianic Judaism a spiritual home for the next generation of Jewish followers of Messiah. Now, that's "bingo"!
Gene, surely there is a difference between:
ReplyDeletea) Having a firmly-held conviction which, as a consequence, means you are considered as outcasts and breakers of the tribal boundaries by the leaders.
b) Deliberately acting in opposition to the tribe out of malice, hatred or mischief, primarily for the sake of rebellion.
Joseph, can't there be a combination of both "a" and "b"? I have certainly observed that.
ReplyDeleteSure, humans are very complicated creatures.
ReplyDeleteGene, it's not an accusation. It's a statement: only way the greater Jewish world will accept Messianics is if we throw out Yeshua. I've been saying this for a long time. And I can bring up some old posts where you actually agree with me, Gene.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Judah or Dan are saying anything different from what 99.9% of Orthodox rabbis would say.
ReplyDelete"Gene, it's not an accusation. It's a statement"
ReplyDeleteJudah, Dan's accusation is that "Messianic Judaism UMJC style is a movement standing outside of normative Judaism dying to get in" - this is not a statement, it's a false charge, followed by another abhorrent false charge that UMJC Jews would be willing to throw out Yeshua himself to accomplish just that (in addition to disassociating themselves from Gentile body of the Messiah).
"It's a statement: only way the greater Jewish world will accept Messianics is if we throw out Yeshua. I've been saying this for a long time. And I can bring up some old posts where you actually agree with me, Gene."
Why make such a "statement" unless one wants to bring an accusation that UMJC is trying to do that?
I was saying "bingo" to the part about the Jewish world not accepting MJs unless we throw out Yeshua as King.
ReplyDeleteHere's what I wrote last year:
Messianic Judaism is not accepted by the Jewish world because Yeshua is Lord. Everything else is a smokescreen, including the charges that we're too gentile, that we accept money from Christians, or that we're just too Evangelical.
As long as Yeshua is Lord, it wouldn't matter if we were 100% Jewish, more observant than the most pious Chassid, more zealous than the energetic Chabadnik. As long as Yeshua is exalted, the Jewish world will not accept us. Don't fool yourself otherwise.
Compromise on Yeshua has never been a goal of any mainstream Messianic Jewish organization that I know nor have I seen ANY signs of such a thing. To even bring this up is to insinuate that this is what's going on or just engage in good 'ol fashioned fear mongering and calling "wolf".
ReplyDeleteHowever, there's a world of difference between being rejected solely for the sake of Yeshua (bring on such honor any day!) and for Messianic Jews doing things that alienate us from the Jewish world AND having a confrontational, antagonistic stance that screams that we don't give a d*mn about what our Jewish people and specifically those within mainstream Judaism think of us, our faith and our actions.
>> Compromise on Yeshua has never been a goal of any mainstream Messianic Jewish organization
ReplyDeleteOf course not. That's a straw man, no one is making that claim.
The Jewish world won't accept us unless we compromise on Yeshua.
The reason this was raised was that throwing gentiles under the bus, booting them from Messianic congregations as Derek did, won't magically make the Jewish world accept us. The only thing that will make the Jewish world accept us is denying Yeshua.
"The reason this was raised was that throwing gentiles under the bus, booting them from Messianic congregations as Derek did, won't magically make the Jewish world accept us."
ReplyDeleteNo-one is throwing Gentiles under the bus. We love Christians and we believe that together we work for G-d's Kingdom. I had to defend Christians against slanderous comments by "messianics" on numerous occasions (including those who visited our synagogue.) Correcting behavior one finds unacceptable or harmful to the well-being of the congregation and its ministry to the Jewish people can only be commendable.
No compromise on Yeshua? Give us a break....
ReplyDelete" Israel's no to Yeshua can properly be viewed as a form of participation in Yeshua" (Kinzer ).
I guess kinzer always scratches his left ear with his right hand? The guy is perpetrating a hoax on Messianic believers and people like Gene just eat it up...Oh, well......
Ok, that is where you and I part ways, Gene.
ReplyDeleteMessianic gentiles *are* being thrown under the bus.
-Derek booted a gentile from his congregation because he kept parts of the Torah that Derek's theology disagrees with.
-You cited Dauermann's post where he defines the proper Messianic congregation as one for "Jews and intermarrieds", one that essentially excludes gentiles. (With some exceptions, but still...)
-Ovadia suggested Messianic gentiles should not speak many of the traditional blessings, should not be a member of a prayer group in a Messianic congregation, etc.
Your next post will go on to claim I'm misunderstanding all this, and will go on to rationalize some of these things. But the point remains: many gentiles are not really welcomed in Messianic Judaism; they're second class citizens. And it's because your vision of MJ is one of Jews believing in Jesus, and not God's reformation of Jew and gentile that it has come to be and will continue to be. Because of this view, gentiles naturally take a back seat.
"" Israel's no to Yeshua can properly be viewed as a form of participation in Yeshua" (Kinzer )."
ReplyDeleteOK - where do you see Kinzer throwing Yeshua "under the bus" with the above statement? In fact, the opposite is true - he AFFIRMS the continuing centrality of Messiahship of Yeshua for the Jewish people, even those who have rejected him because of bad witness on the part of Christianity.
"I guess kinzer always scratches his left ear with his right hand? The guy is perpetrating a hoax on Messianic believers and people like Gene just eat it up...Oh, well......"
Dan, the hoax (the neo-Galatianism) that you and your associated groups are perpetrating on unsuspecting Christians is a far worse and more damaging than anything UMJC / MJTI could have come up with.
"Your next post will go on to claim I'm misunderstanding all this"
ReplyDeleteNo, Judah - I don't think you're misunderstanding, not at all - I am giving you far more credit that you think. You simply choose not to accept the Messianic Jewish perspective because it runs counter to the preconceived notions and theologies which you hold dear.
>> because it runs counter to the preconceived notions and theologies which you hold dear.
ReplyDeleteLOL. Ok, Gene.
"LOL. Ok, Gene."
ReplyDeleteJudah, I believe that your was a "nervous laugh."
Judah - I will post on your brother's website but I doubt I'll be "heard" (sorry but appears that way to me). For the benefit of folks who hang out here:
ReplyDeleteI usually don’t just refer to Wikipedia but their Easter article (at least the bulk of it prior to the warnings) is very well done and scholarly with adequate footnotes. This lays out the linguistic point I was trying to make.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter
Judah – I can read the English translation. This was done for English speakers who obviously refer to this Christian festival as “Easter”. Hence that word was used for the English translation. Obviously, Constantine didn’t write a letter in English or some Anglo-Saxon precursor (English didn’t even exist and the Anglo-Saxons didn’t even invade Britain until 410). So I will insert the Latin word used in the Latin letter of Constantine (easier that using the Greek alphabet for his Greek letter). His letter was disseminated in Greek and Latin to our knowledge. No other language. I don’t deny that he is using an argument based on “Contempt for jews/Judaism” and that disgusts me. But it has nothing to do with pagan Eostre etc. That linguistic connection arose in England sometime after the Anglo/Saxon invasion post 410 a.d. in that remote outpost of Christianity( and civilization). Had nothing to do with the early church or the “origins” of the Christian festival. Thus, what follows is the letter but utilizing the Latin term Pascha used in the letter for both terms –i.e. Pascha is the same word used for Passover in Latin(sometimes also shown as Pascae).
“When the question relative to the sacred festival of Pascha[Passover] arose, it was thought particularly unworthy to follow the customs of the Jews who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Pascha [Passover].
We ought not therefore to have anything in common with the Jew. And consequently in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jew. For it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them They do not possess the truth in this Pascha [Passover] question, for in their blindness and repugnance to all improvements they frequently celebrate two [Pascha’s] Passovers in the same year.”
This by the way related to the calculation of the proper date of the festival and was really just a continuation of the Quartodeciman Controversy of which there are many accurate articles on the Internet including Wikipedia. Constantine is here shown throwing in an argument based on “contempt of the jews”. To the Church’s everlasting shame.
Finally, Most the “pagan origination of Easter” comes from a discredited source- Hislop. Again,a very well done and footnote referenced Wikipedia article. Note that Woodrow has disavowed his book which relied on Hislop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons
Todd
"the neo-Galatianism"
ReplyDeleteWasn't the Galatian heresy related to converting Gentiles to become "Jews" - precisely what Kinzer/MJTI/UMJC do advocate?
NOE-GALATIANISM...BILATERAL ECCLESIOLOGY....
ReplyDeleteYou guys are sooo...good inventing labels and slogans, sadly, that is the only thing you are good at. Rational people will not fall for this.
The last comment from from me (not DTFYachts). Judah, can you fix or delete if you can't (it's not DTFYachts - which is another account).
ReplyDeleteThanks. Gene
@Gene, A nervous laugh, eh? :-) Now I'm rolling my eyes. Nervously.
ReplyDeleteI can delete your comment, sure. Provided you get me a deal on those DTF Yachts. ;-)
@Todd, I don't understand. Either way, the emperor was on an anti-semitic rant. He is not a good representative of your Roman Catholicism. I don't understand why you're defending him. Oh well, I'll let you continue your thoughts on the other blog.
Joseph - they advocate no such thing.
ReplyDeleteYes they do have a read here:
http://ourrabbis.org/main/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18&Itemid=32
Conversion is the process whereby some of the ambiguities can be cleared up. It is an act of love as is all legitimate boundary-mak-ing and boundary-keeping. It is true in the realm of citizenship and it is true in the realm of faith.
Translation: Gentiles who keep halachah are a bit confused, and the loving thing to do is to convert them to Judaism.
Surely, if these Messianic Gentiles are committing the Galatian error, then Messianic Jews have a duty to warn them that this is an error, rather than encouraging them by offering a conversion?
"Surely, if these Messianic Gentiles are committing the Galatian error, then Messianic Jews have a duty to warn them that this is an error, rather than encouraging them by offering a conversion?"
ReplyDeleteDerek wants to convert, but he doesn't believe that Gentiles are obligated to do so or required to observe Torah. HUGE difference. The Galatian error is not the voluntary taking up of certain "mitzvot" by Gentiles or even conversion - it is pushing all Gentiles into believing that this is what G-d DEMANDS of Gentiles for them to live holy lives acceptable to him.
Gene, I hope you're going to get me a deal on one of those yachts. Don't think you can change the subject. As the Talmud records, yachts are more important than theological debates.
ReplyDeleteAnd all the people said amen.
"Gene, I hope you're going to get me a deal on one of those yachts."
ReplyDeleteJudah, sure - I can shave a few hundred thou for you on the 112 footer:) If you come down here to Florida, I'll take you ocean fishing.
Derek wants to convert, but he doesn't believe that Gentiles are obligated to do so or required to observe Torah. HUGE difference.
ReplyDeleteBut he isn't converted yet. His conversion process via the MJRC has not yet finished.
He is therefore still a Gentile keeping halachah, but doesn't live up to the same standards he judges other halachically-observant Gentiles by.
Can you show me a One Law congregation which says halachah is binding on Gentiles for them to be considered as saved/obedient disciples of Christ Jesus?
That I agree would be serious.
Hahah, awesome. (Too bad I'm dirt poor!)
ReplyDeleteWould love to go fishing with you sometime. Once every few years, I take a vacation with the family down to Florida. Maybe I'll take you up on that offer sometime.
"Would love to go fishing with you sometime. Once every few years, I take a vacation with the family down to Florida. Maybe I'll take you up on that offer sometime."
ReplyDeleteYou bet, we'd have a blast!
Can I join? That way I can throw Gene off the deck? LOL! I know he can't swim....LOL!
ReplyDelete"Can I join? That way I can throw Gene off the deck? LOL! I know he can't swim....LOL!"
ReplyDeleteI can swim, Dan, but I didn't know you felt that way about me that you'd rather see me dead merely because you can't stand my beliefs. I'd would have invited you, but now I am having second thoughts:)
You know, McKee lives in Florida, too. I'm picturing me, McKee, Benzvi, and Shlomovich on a boat. In the middle of the ocean.
ReplyDeleteI think I'll bring my life jacket! ;-)
So long as you don't go on a Saturday I'm sure you'll get along fine!
ReplyDelete"You know, McKee lives in Florida, too. I'm picturing me, McKee, Benzvi, and Shlomovich on a boat. In the middle of the ocean. "
ReplyDeleteJudah, I think that in the group you described the only who would need extra precautions is me:)
"Joseph said... So long as you don't go on a Saturday I'm sure you'll get along fine!"
ReplyDeleteJoseph, from the link you gave me, if we let McKee steer the boat, we'd be fine to come along (the rest of us, who are Jews - since we won't be working or riding on a boat steered by a Jew:)
>> Judah, I think that in the group you described the only who would need extra precautions is me:)
ReplyDeleteTrue, but Benzvi is a wild unknown. After dumping you over the side, he might come after me and McKee for our 2 House views!
You can't stop me, because I'm on boat!
LOL!!!! :D love that song
ReplyDelete"True, but Benzvi is a wild unknown. After dumping you over the side, he might come after me and McKee for our 2 House views!"
ReplyDeleteYou got a point there. Benzvi will have to fish from a dingy.
Love that song too - saw it a while back, hilarious.
I ran so far away...
ReplyDeleteThe only reason I will throw Judah and Mackee off the boat is because then I will become the sole owner.... It's all about the money, didn't you know?....
ReplyDeleteDan, any relations to Mr. Madoff?:)
ReplyDeleteOkey - dokey. Posted on your brother's page and tried to make even more clear that I am not defending Constantine. Just defending the development of Christian Pascha.
ReplyDeleteI would appreciate a charitable re-read my post above and the one on your brother's page.
Thanks
Todd
A charitable read, eh? I'll need to see your exclusive boat club membership first.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid something along the lines of a canoe will have to do.
ReplyDelete:-)
Todd
:jumps in his 112 footer USS Martin Luther and rams Todd's puny Catholic canoe:
ReplyDelete;-)
Would it be safe to say, that believing in Yeshua is harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish community?
ReplyDeletepRock - sorry you bruise so easily.
ReplyDelete"Would it be safe to say, that believing in Yeshua is harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish community?"
ReplyDeletepRock - in what way? Please elaborate.
@Gene Shomovich
ReplyDelete"pRock - in what way? Please elaborate."
Well, considering that the leadership in Judaism today is trying to spread anti-Yeshua information... Messianic Judaism is in complete opposition with the Jewish community, and I am not speaking of evangelizing... As I heard it once from an orthodox Jew, "Messianic Judaism is deceptive, Judaism on the outside, Christianity on the inside..." So if anything, the Messianic Movement as a whole is harming and disrespecting the Jewish community on a leadership level and a personal level. So what is the solution for Messianic Judaism that wants to respect the Jewish community or at least claim they do, when Judaism disagrees?
"So what is the solution for Messianic Judaism that wants to respect the Jewish community or at least claim they do, when Judaism disagrees?"
ReplyDeleteI don't know, what's your solution - end Messianic Judaism?
"I don't know, what's your solution - end Messianic Judaism?"
ReplyDeleteWell, that is specifically something the Leadership of Messianic Judaism needs to figure out... Hopefully you are not a leader asking this question, lol.
So would you agree:
Would it be safe to say, that believing in Yeshua is harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish community?
Also, this asks the question, is it safe to say that Messianic Judaism is harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish community?
I might be off base, but is it not one of the biggest values of Messianic Judaism to respect the Jewish community and thus be a place to reach out and help the community?
Just some questions to ponder...
"Would it be safe to say, that believing in Yeshua is harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish community?"
ReplyDeleteNo, it's neither harmful or disrespectful to the Jewish community, unless you consider the Jewish Messiah as harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish Community.
"Also, this asks the question, is it safe to say that Messianic Judaism is harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish community?"
There are many entities that self-identify as mainstream "Judaism" (i.e. those which have nothing to do with Messianic Judaism) that could be considered truly harmful. One could consider Reconstructionist or Reform Judaism as harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish community because both reject Torah, halacha, and the very idea of Messiah - the very foundations of our Jewish people. These "Judaisms" represent the great majority of Jewry that attends any type of synagogue. The fact that they also reject Yeshua as Messiah is irrelevant, since they reject the very idea of Messiah.
Messianic Judaism that I am part of (there are groups claiming to be part of MJ but who are more like Christianity or at most Reform Judaism in their essence) honors Torah, halacha, and Messiah.
"No, it's neither harmful or disrespectful to the Jewish community, unless you consider the Jewish Messiah as harmful and disrespectful to the Jewish Community."
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter what I consider, but the Jewish community, and they consider it harmful and disrespectful... as per the original question...
"but the Jewish community, and they consider it harmful and disrespectful."
ReplyDeleteLast time I checked most in Jewish community are indifferent to Messianic Judaism and know very little about it, and a few are even sympathetic to it. Besides all that, I care more about what G-d thinks is right, than any human. It's more harmful for my people to reject their Messiah, regardless of "opinion". Even if the bulk of my people has rejected their Messiah (thankfully temporarily) and thus sinned before G-d, we have a commandment on how one should conduct himself is such cases:
Exodus 23:2:
"Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong..."
"Last time I checked most in Jewish community are indifferent to Messianic Judaism and know very little about it, and a few are even sympathetic to it. Besides all that, I care more about what G-d thinks is right, than any human. It's more harmful for my people to reject their Messiah, regardless of "opinion". Even if the bulk of my people has rejected their Messiah (thankfully temporarily) and thus sinned before G-d, we have a commandment on how one should conduct himself is such cases:
ReplyDeleteExodus 23:2:
"Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong..."
Ok, so you are saying it is more important to respect God than man.
Honestly, it sounds just like the One Law movement... with Gentiles saying they must respect God in keeping His commandments over the respect of men...
"Honestly, it sounds just like the One Law movement... with Gentiles saying they must respect God in keeping His commandments over the respect of men..."
ReplyDeleteSounds to me that you are a Messianic Gentile who wants to convert to Judaism or already have:) Regardless, I think that obeying G-d over men is universal to all monotheistic faiths - do you dare state otherwise? If Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the Messiah, the right thing before HaShem for a Jew WHO KNOWS BETTER would have been to reject Akiva's ruling in that particular area (as I many Jews at that time have done). We do not have a doctrine of infallibility in Judaism - this is not Catholicism!
Sounds to me that you are a Messianic Gentile who wants to convert to Judaism or already have:) Regardless, I think that obeying G-d over men is universal to all monotheistic faiths - do you dare state otherwise? If Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the Messiah, the right thing before HaShem for a Jew WHO KNOWS BETTER would have been to reject Akiva's ruling in that particular area (as I many Jews at that time have done). We do not have a doctrine of infallibility in Judaism - this is not Catholicism!
ReplyDeleteNo conversion here, no thanks... I only wanted to point out the hypocritical idea of respecting the Jewish community...
If you are of One Law, gentiles who want to obey God and wear tzitzit are being disrespectful to the Jewish community and the Messianics who want to be respectful to the Jewish community are disrespecting them by believing in Messiah... It is a lost situation... I brought this up because I was introduced to this Messianic circle of blogs about 2 months and ago and I have been reading the issues that get addressed and they seem to come back to a central point of respect... of course ultimately a failing respect on all sides. Even your very responses proved this to be true.
pRock, like I said maybe the problem is you're too easily offended.
ReplyDeleteDifferent beliefs and competing identities naturally offend each other. You should find a way to cope.
"pRock, like I said maybe the problem is you're too easily offended.
ReplyDeleteDifferent beliefs and competing identities naturally offend each other. You should find a way to cope."
Joseph, honestly bro I am not offended, I am merely pointing out the hypocritical aspect of respect, stressed by two major competing MJism... do you have anything to say specifically to the question I asked? Is there anything wrong with addressing this issue? It is extremely redundant among this circle of messianic blogs, and it is laughable to say the least.
"I only wanted to point out the hypocritical idea of respecting the Jewish community..."
ReplyDeleteI am a Jew WHO IS by that very fact is part of Jewish community. The Jewish community has been MY community since birth. This is a bit different than someone who is not Jewish (e.g. One Law) but wants to impose himself and his views on the Jewish people, don't you think?
Besides, no single Jew agrees on everything another Jew believes - the proverbial "two Jews, three opinions" - and disagreement is not an automatic sign of "disrespect." I and my other MJ friends have more respect for OUR Jewish community, Torah and Halakha that most non-Messianic Jews I know.
pRock - Right, then I think we're totally agreed!
ReplyDelete>> It is extremely redundant among this circle of messianic blogs, and it is laughable to say the least.
ReplyDeleteYeah. I apologize if I've contributed to this.
I am a Jew WHO IS by that very fact is part of Jewish community. The Jewish community has been MY community since birth. This is a bit different than someone who is not Jewish (e.g. One Law) but wants to impose himself and his views on the Jewish people, don't you think?
ReplyDeleteQuestion:
How is the One Law community imposing themselves on the Jewish People? And isn't Judah Gabriel, One Law, yet he is not a gentile right?
Besides, no single Jew agrees on everything another Jew believes - the proverbial "two Jews, three opinions" - and disagreement is not an automatic sign of "disrespect." I and my other MJ friends have more respect for OUR Jewish community, Torah and Halakha that most non-Messianic Jews I know.
There is one thing that Judaism today agrees on or denies and that is Yeshua as Messiah...
The thing is, there are a lot less Messianic Jews than there are Orthodox Jews. Everyone's fighting for their definition of the term.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair to the Messianic blogosphere, I don't know of any mainstream Jewish website where the commentators argue over almost every aspect of God's will for Jewish people.
I agree with pRock that this whole "oh you've offended..." or "where is your respect for..." line of argument is farcical.
So long as you're not calling for violence or discrimination against another person, you should be able to say what you like about their beliefs - and expect the same back.
>> isn't Judah Gabriel, One Law, yet he is not a gentile right
ReplyDeleteMy dad's Jewish.
I'm one law in the sense that I have always believed that God's commandments are relevant instruction for all of God's people, including gentiles.
The only difference between One Law Gentiles and Gentiles in HOM-J circles seems to be a Messianic conversion certificate, which wouldn't be recognised by most Jews or Christians anyway.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is very slight and technical, which is why the hostile attitude of Gentile-convert HOM-Js towards One Law Gentiles doesn't make much sense at all - neither group say you have to be born Jewish to observe halachah.
The farce in all this is that according to the statements we hear, Derek could not be a member of Dauermann's congregation....LOL!
ReplyDeleteAnd they call us meshugenes......OY VEY!
"I'm one law in the sense that I have always believed that God's commandments are relevant instruction for all of God's people, including gentiles."
ReplyDeleteI don't think even the most antinomian Christians would argue with the fact that everything that comes from the mouth of G-d is relevant to everyone. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) The only problem is that other than reverence and respect that every one should pay to G-d, not everything that He commands calls for the same response from everyone - applicability of certain commandments depends on whom they are addressed to.
"they call us meshugenes......"
ReplyDeleteIs that what they call you? LOL
In fact, if Derek had an identical twin brother who came to the same conclusions and spoke and dressed in the exact same way as him, but had never heard of the MJRC, and turned up at Derek's shul dressed the same as Derek, Derek would have to kick him out for not having an MJRC conversion certificate.
ReplyDelete"Derek would have to kick him out for not having an MJRC conversion certificate."
ReplyDeleteJoseph, if one chooses to ignore Torah and Jewish traditional integrations of it, than of course nothing in Judaism makes much sense, much less conversions.
Conversions didn't make much sense to Paul either.
ReplyDelete"integrations "
ReplyDeleteI meant to say "traditional INTERPRETATIONS"
"Conversions didn't make much sense to Paul either."
ReplyDeleteI would argue that he accepted them as a fact within Judaism, but like the rabbis of today, discouraged them strongly - especially in light of Yeshua. Depending on whether one believes in patrilineal descent being the standard mode of operation in the first century's Judaism (as historian Shaye Cohen argues in his work "Beginnings of Jewishness") with nationality of the mother being of little important, one would say that Timothy was converted by Paul.
Hmmmm, Gene,
ReplyDeleteAnd the influencers of Acts 15 had nothing to do with that, right?
Judah: jumps in his 112 footer USS Martin Luther and rams Todd's puny Catholic canoe:
ReplyDeleteTodd: I was on board the USS Martin Luther but abandoned ship.
:-)
Todd
Hahah, that's funny, good comeback. That's also ironic, considering Martin Luther was the one that "abandoned ship", so to speak, the first time around. :-)
ReplyDeleteGene says:
ReplyDeleteI'd trade a few Jews I don't care to know for this convert.
Remember we're dealing with people, not faulty merchandise.
"Remember we're dealing with people, not faulty merchandise."
ReplyDeleteJoe, did not you read in Isaiah 43?:
"For I am the L-rd, your G-d, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I gave Egypt as a ransom for your freedom; I gave Ethiopia and Seba in your place. OTHERS WERE GIVEN IN EXCHANGE FOR YOU. I TRADED THEIR LIVES FOR YOURS because you are precious to me. You are honored, and I love you."
Does G-d here view people as merchandise? No? Well, neither do I.
"And the influencers of Acts 15 had nothing to do with that, right?"
ReplyDeleteDan, you mean the Jewish leaders of the Jerusalem congregation whom received their answers regarding halachic matters directly from the Holy Spirit?
Yeah but you're not God Gene...
ReplyDeleteYes, Gene, the same people. At the time when Halacha was Halacha, before the Pharsical farce....LOL!
ReplyDeletePun intended....
"Yeah but you're not G-d Gene..."
ReplyDeleteBut He's my Father...
"Yes, Gene, the same people. At the time when Halacha was Halacha, before the Pharsical farce....LOL!"
ReplyDeleteThese same tzaddikim would have thrown you out as a Judaizer and hater of other Jewish believers.
The same tzadikim who said: "...and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts with faith." These are the tzadikim you mean? No, they would not throw me out, but they would probably call you a Judaizer who love Jewish people.....
ReplyDeleteIgnorance is bliss.....No need to think......
Sure God's your father, but there are differences between the way he deal with people and the way we can.
ReplyDelete"No, they would not throw me out, but they would probably call you a Judaizer who love Jewish people....."
ReplyDeleteYou do love me, Dan - what a nice description of me! I confirm that I too would call myself a Judaizer [bringing all Jews to Yeshua and secular Jews to Judaism, and Gentiles to Yeshua] who loves Jewish people.
"Sure God's your father, but there are differences between the way he deal with people and the way we can."
ReplyDeleteJoe, you'd probably trade me for a few more of your anti-rabbinical fans and One-Law cheerleaders in a heartbeat:)
Gooooooo team! :handstand:
ReplyDeleteAre you inciting violence Judah?...LOL!
ReplyDeleteJoe, you'd probably trade me for a few more of your anti-rabbinical fans and One-Law cheerleaders in a heartbeat:)
ReplyDeleteNo I wouldn't! :D
You'd never trade us either Gene, we're the Joker to your Batman, you need us ;)
Now that we’re talking major league “trades” , I would like to inform everyone who has been commenting on this post that the Vatican and I have arranged to trade some of our “dissident nuns” to the MJ community in return for all of you. Welcome to the Catholic Church! I have personally prepared your “welcome kits” which include:
ReplyDeleteA olive wood Rosary made in Jerusalem
Icons of St. Rachel and St. Michael (patron of Israel)
Autographed photo of John Paul II praying at Wailing Wall
A honorary membership in the Association for Hebrew Catholics
16 Votive Candles
Holy Bible with the “Catholic” canon (bonus: cover specially embossed with Star of David)
….and most important of all (drumroll)……….
“Idolatry” Instruction Manual
Todd
Todd,
ReplyDeleteLOL! I am rolling on the floor! :-D
I confirm that I too would call myself a Judaizer [bringing all Jews to Yeshua and secular Jews to Judaism, and Gentiles to Yeshua] who loves Jewish people.
ReplyDeleteI was right about the Batman analogy - you really are a superhero :-D
Shalom Judah,
ReplyDeleteAs someone who doesn't have an MJ congregation within two hours of him, I often come to your site on Shabbat to be a part of a community.
I unfortunately used your link to Derek's site and feel my sabbath has been ruined. Once again I am left with the understanding that sometimes the only thing worse than not having a congregation to be part of-- is being part of a congregation.
Please continue to show the love of the spirit.
@Todd The point was to show, and there are many more examples, that Constantine/Ignatius got away from doing "Jewish" (Gods Biblical) Feast's and incorporated mythra holidays that had nothing to do with the Messiah. God strongly hates easter as pointed out here..... Judges 2:13, Judges 10:6, 1 Samuel 7:3, 1 Samuel 12:10, 1 Kings 11:5, 2 Kings 23:13, Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Ezekiel 8 & 9, Jeremiah 12 & 44! easter has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MESSIAH in any way shape or form! And weather the church knows it or not they still follow the pagan date set by Constantine/Ignatius and the catholic church
ReplyDelete@All the Torah is only for the Jews, people out there....
ReplyDeleteIf you love me(the Messiah), you will do my commands; John 14:15
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him. John 14:21
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" remember that at that time you were separate from Messiah, excluded from citizenship in ISRAEL and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Messiah Yeshua you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Messiah. Eph. 2:11-13
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! Romans 11:17-24
The Torah is for all who believe, and if you believe you are grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel!
Not sure what "boat" that puts me in, I'll let you fine readers decide what "box" I fall into....