While on the subject of Messianic blogs, I discovered just this morning The Rosh Pina Project blog, a Messianic Jewish blog that is doing a much-needed work in our movement: exposing the injustices and persecution at the hands Jewish anti-missionaries and vigilante groups that have persecuted Messiah-loving Jews in Israel and elsewhere.
(While on the subject, “anti-missionary” is a misnomer; we’re not missionaries. I prefer to call them Messiah hating Judaism-shamers, or Shamers for short.)
The blog that highlights these abuses is the Rosh Pina Project blog. It highlights Messianic Jews in the media, persecution and conversion attempts by the Shamers who try to make us abandon our hope and faith in Messiah through various underhanded means: deceptive tactics online (I’ve experienced this several times, FWIW), book burnings in the real world, physical harassment and fire bombings, hostility and hatred through vigilante violence, exploding Purim packages, you name it, the Shamers have done it.
(Someone ought to remind these misguided Jews of the greatest commandments of Torah: love God and love neighbor.)
These abuses by the Shamers too often go unnoticed:
- Many Messianic Jews wish to fit in with greater Judaism, and so they do not speak out against this in fear of drawing attention to themselves.
- Israeli Messianics have to be careful speaking out against this, lest their citizenship get revoked by the Ministry of Interior, as has been documented on several occasions.
- The Israeli media demonizes Messianic Jews as evil missionizers attempting to baptize fellow Jews into Mother Church (we’re not); newspapers like Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post have, in the past, all but excused these vigilante Shamers of Judaism, the so-called anti-missionaries.
The Rosh Pina Project is dedicated to this purpose of exposing the Shamers of Judaism. It’s about damn time, IMO. Go read.
Usually, these counter-counter-missionaries sites and publications only serve to fuel further antisemitism among Christians towards all Jews in general (e.g., how dare these godless Jesus-killing Jews beat up on our Christian Hebrew brothers), as well as shunning of everything Orthodox and traditional among Jewish believers (straight into the arms of Christianity and so called "Biblical" tradition-free "Judaism.")
ReplyDeleteI've come to view Orthodox anti-missionaries and other Jews who take offense as Messianic Jews for their stated reasons, namely:
- Most Jews believe that Christianity and belief in Jesus is a Gentile pagan religion and plain old idolatry. Orthodox Jews take idolatry (when it comes to other Jews) very seriously - they are zealous for G-d (to quote Paul) - even if this "idolatry" is coated with good deeds. This is just how they believe, rightly or wrongly.
- Many Jews are aware of their past history, when converted Jews became some of the worst persecutors and traitors of their own former Jewish community, with many working extra hard for their new Christian masters to "prove" their new-found true faith.
- Most Messianic Jews - especially in Israel - are basically Evangelical Christians, with little to no regard for Judaism and little difference between them and other church-going non-Jews in Israel. Most consider Torah observance as done away with, and many hate rabbinic and especially Orthodox Judaism with special hatred.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteIf, "most Messianic Jews - especially in Israel-are basically Evangelical Christians" why call them "Messianic Jews" in the first place?
If they are truly "Evangelical Christians" then they are not "Messianic Jews", right? I'm speaking spiritually, not physically.
Either you are a Jew or you are a Christian. You can't be both, right?
And I'm wondering what a "special hatred" is. Is it a hatred that is focused on a particular group of people for a particular reason, or is it another level of hate that can only be described as "special"?
You do know that if there has ever been any persecution of the people of Israel from the time they came into existence until now it has not been without the consent of YHWH.
"He who watches over Israel will never slumber nor sleep."
Right?
Shalom,
Efrayim
Gene - can you give an example from the Rosh Pina Project where criticism of counter-missionary extremism might fuel antisemitism?
ReplyDeleteAnd surely counter-missionaries who launch a jihad only against Jewish Christians might fuel antisemitism in churches too, don't you think?
Also Gene, where do we say "how dare these godless Jesus-killing Jews beat up on our Christian Hebrew brothers"???
ReplyDeleteWhat an offensive allegation!
Surely you know that the Tanakh states: “Do not accuse a man for no reason–when he has done you no harm" Proverbs 3:30
For Jews who are serious about Torah observance, this verse is vital.
Yeze
Gene,
ReplyDeleteSorry if I've misunderstood you but I see you link to an MJ congregation yourself! So what exactly is your problem with a site dedicated to exposing the frankly despicable tactics of the antimissionaries?
Gene, there will always be a risk in exposing anti-missionary attacks against Messianic Jews that antisemites will feel justified.
ReplyDeleteHowever does that also mean it was wrong for the Jewish Press to report on the Hardei scandal of the Rabbi Elior Chen sect or the Agriprocessors news story, or even Madoff? Does it cause antisemitism, no, but it does add to confirming existing predjudice.
Should we therefore keep quiet about wrong doing? In the case of Messianic Jews we do have to balance our obligation to brothers and sisters in Yeshua who face persecution, with the risk of allowing bigots to stay bigotted!
Scotland is tarnished by it's government's release of the Lockerbie bomber, should Scottish papers have kept quiet so as not to give Scotland a bad name?
No, we must strive for righteouness and justice, this is the way of the Torah and Yeshua.
Gev
Efrayim: "If, "most Messianic Jews - especially in Israel-are basically Evangelical Christians" why call them "Messianic Jews" in the first place?"
ReplyDeleteBecause a Jew can't stop being one, including spiritually (but religiously, a Jew can be something else). But perhaps they should just be called Christian Jews (or Hebrews), or Hebrew Evangelicals.
"And I'm wondering what a "special hatred" is. Is it a hatred that is focused on a particular group of people for a particular reason, or is it another level of hate that can only be described as "special"?"
"Special", because being nurtured as Evangelicals, many [but certainly not all] of these Israeli believers are antagonistic to traditional Judaism and anything rabbinic as "Pharisaic". Most of them also come from secular Israeli backgrounds, and since most secular Israelis disdain the Orthodox as backward, this is also reflected in the Messianic community.
"You do know that if there has ever been any persecution of the people of Israel from the time they came into existence until now it has not been without the consent of YHWH."
Of course - you do know that anti-missionaries also go after Jehovah's Witnesses in Israel (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/969459.html) and other cultic faiths that VERY actively target Jews for their conversion [that you probably wouldn't approve of]? Any spiritual significance of these other persecutions?
yyeze "Gene - can you give an example from the Rosh Pina Project where criticism of counter-missionary extremism might fuel antisemitism?"
ReplyDeleteI don't know - you guys seem to be new on the scene. But there's, for example, a project on YouTube that's run by some Christians supposedly on behalf of persecuted believers in Arad, titled "This is why people hate the Jews" (http://www.youtube.com/user/aradisrael). Really, is this why they hate us?
"And surely counter-missionaries who launch a jihad only against Jewish Christians might fuel antisemitism in churches too, don't you think?"
Historic Christianity already used the fact that Jews persecuted the first "Christians" (but they conveniently ignore the fact that these believers were JEWS themselves!) as the reason to hate the Jews. I don't think antisemitism needs many good reasons.
roshpinaproject "Also Gene, where do we say "how dare these godless Jesus-killing Jews beat up on our Christian Hebrew brothers"??? What an offensive allegation!"
ReplyDeleteI think I made it clear in my post that this may be the reaction among some "Christians" [who may be looking for justification for their dislike of the Jews] to your postings (rather than something that you said on your site).
James said... "Gene, Sorry if I've misunderstood you but I see you link to an MJ congregation yourself! So what exactly is your problem with a site dedicated to exposing the frankly despicable tactics of the antimissionaries?"
ReplyDeleteMy problem is the demonizing of the Orthodox Jews, who view themselves as fighting against apostasy and idolatry in the land of Israel and specifically among other Jews.
But what if messianic believers in Israel responded with expressions of love for their enemies in return for hatred? What a novel concept!
"But what if messianic believers in Israel responded with expressions of love for their enemies in return for hatred? What a novel concept!"
ReplyDeleteThis is what happens in Israel often, I've seen Messianic Jews under serious attack respond with "Shey Elohim yivarekh otkha"
I agree with you though aboout the You Tube series "this is why they hate jews", a very unwise and unhelpful title. However this is not the Rosh Pina Project! Neither is RPP wanting to demonise Orthodox Jews, but it does want to defend Yehudim Meshichim that are under attack from the peyilim of Yad L'Achim and similar groups.
Gev
OK Gene, so where please on the Rosh Pinah site is there any "demonisation" or "hatred" directed towards Orthodox Jews?
ReplyDeleteGene, you run a Messianic congregation. That means counter-missionaries are probably watching your congregation, and consider you to be an apostate and a heretic.
ReplyDeleteThe Rosh Pina Project is a free service in order to help you guys out by providing you with information about the counter-missionaries.
As Judah has stated, the actions of Yad L'Achim are an embarrassment to Judaism, rather than representative of it.
Whilst I think it is clear that anti-Semites are not welcome on the Rosh Pina Project, the only sites to have linked to our website so far have been liberal Jewish sites run by bloggers who are also fed up of anti-missionaries, and one Christian commentator who wants to help out Messianic Jews in Israel.
There are some valid points on both sides:
ReplyDeleteMy younger brother who's lived in Israel the past year has confirmed that, as Gene says, many Messianics in Israel are basically unobservant, tradition-free Evangelical Christians.
(However, that doesn't mean we should excuse persecution.)
While some Christians might get the wrong idea, and while some Messianics may be pushed further away from Orthodox Judaism, exposing the evil tactics of the Shamers is a service that needs to be done. Without it, uninformed weak Messianics will abandon faith in Messiah as the anti-missionaries peddle their Messiah-denying, Yeshua-hating wares. We need to boldy speak out against the violence and persecution and underhanded tactics of the Shamers and their apologists here and in the Israeli media.
well said Judah
ReplyDeleteroshpinaproject said... "As Judah has stated, the actions of Yad L'Achim are an embarrassment to Judaism, rather than representative of it."
ReplyDeleteDo you NOT think that most religious Jews [i.e. the Judaism that you say should be embarrassed of Yad L'Achim] support the efforts of that organization, at least in principal (if not financially) - considering that many missionaries in Israel do indeed seek to convert unaffiliated or disenchanted with their own faith Jews into Christian Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehova's Ws, and countless others non-Jewish streams or cults?
BTW, I happen to find the stated goal of Yad L’Achim (found on their site) quite admirable:
"What motivates Yad L’Achim is its genuine, deeply felt concern for fellow Jews.
The Jewish soul is a precious, all-too-rare resource, and we are not prepared to give up on even a single one. That’s why we fight with such intensity for both the Russian Jewish immigrant who has become a regular at the missionary center in Afula and the Jewish woman who is married to an Arab.
There are no “lost causes.” Yad L’Achim will continue its rescue activities, together with its efforts at Jewish outreach, as long as the problem of missionaries and Jewish-Arab marriage persists."
These Jews are motivated by their zealousness for Judaism, for Jews, for G-d's Torah and for HaShem. They view the efforts of the missionaries as an attack on the vulnerable Jews who must be defended at all costs, especially when it comes to Mormons and JWs. And these efforts are nowhere NEAR what the Bible proscribes for these cases:
"If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods,” which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you." (Deuteronomy 13 : 6-11)
These Orthodox Jews do not know Yeshua. What little they do know of him and what they see around them in His followers, in their mind he's nothing but a pagan deity, an advocate for Torah disobideince, devoid of anything Jewish. They see Catholic and Eastern churches dotting the Land, filled with idols to the brim, or even his Jewish followers rejecting Jewish life, Torah and traditions, becoming virtual Gentiles - this is what faith of Yeshua looks to the religious Jew today.
Some day G-d will make a monumental shift in Israel. I do not think that any stream or movement today, or any work of men will cause it - G-d will do it himself.
What Gene says is right: these organizations are trying to preserve Jewishness and Judaism. An admirable and worthy goal.
ReplyDeleteIt just doesn't excuse the evil tactics that have been used against Messiah's followers -- whether full fledged Messianic Jew, or hardly-observant Evangelicals: those who love Messiah do not deserve nail-laden bombs disguised as Purim gifts.
They do not deserve their homes firebombed.
They do not deserve physical harassment.
They do not deserve verbal abuse.
They do not deserve losing their jobs over their hope in Messiah.
They do not deserve intimidation to leave their homes.
They do not deserve their citizenship revoked.
We should, we ought to -- it's our responsibility -- to call out these evils, their perpetrators, and their apologists. These extremist organization aren't preserving Judaism. They are bringing it shame by persecuting Jews that don't perfectly share their beliefs. They'd stone the prophets if they were here today.
Judah... "those who love Messiah do not deserve nail-laden bombs disguised as Purim gifts. "
ReplyDeleteOf course, they don't.
Now, before we get too far, show me the evidence that it was the Orthodox, rather than the Palestinians to whom Pastor Ortiz was actually ministering to, who did that atrocious act?
"We should, we ought to -- it's our responsibility -- to call out these evils, their perpetrators, and their apologists. These extremist organization aren't preserving Judaism. They are bringing it shame by persecuting Jews that don't perfectly share their beliefs. They'd stone the prophets if they were here today."
Again, you'll have to call out just about every Orthodox Jew out there.
Judah... you wrote in your post:
ReplyDelete'The Israeli media demonizes Messianic Jews as evil missionizers attempting to baptize fellow Jews into Mother Church (we’re not); newspapers like Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post have, in the past, all but excused these vigilante Shamers of Judaism, the so-called anti-missionaries."
If anything, I've seen the opposite - in the few reports that it puts out about the MJs and other religious groups now and then, the secular Israeli media is actually very sympathetic to the plight of religious minorities (and MJs in particular) in Israel (especially the liberal rags like Haaretz). It does quote the opinions of the Orthodox establishment regarding those cases, but almost never in a preferential light. Both JPost and especially Haaretz regularly post articles critical of the Orthodox.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteDo you know what Yad L'achim said about the attempted murder of the Messianic teen?
"Ortiz and his friends are soul-murderers. Destroyers of Jews. Offspring of Crusaders."
They have distributed fliers containing the photos and addresses of known Messianics in Israel.
They are currently on trial in Israel for vigilante acts of violence against Messianics.
We can talk about the good idea of preserving Judaism, but let's not poo-poo the things these organizations are doing, in the name of the God of Israel, to Messiah's sheep. It needs to be stated and called out plainly as the evil it is.
I've seen the opposite - in the few reports that it puts out about the MJs and other religious groups now and then, the secular Israeli media is actually very sympathetic to the plight of religious minorities (and MJs in particular)
ReplyDeleteGene, did you read Ha'aretz's article on the bombing? It states:
-Messianics are a cult.
-It was probably a firecracker accident.
-There's no evidence it was deliberate.
-The police have it right and intend to dismiss it.
The article dismisses the whole thing faster than you can say, "Load of bullshit rubber-stamp journalism".
Also, if it were just about Israel or Judaism, then why did Yad L'Achim assist the Chinese government by attenting a conference on religious minorites? Why did Yad L'Achim give the Chinese authorities advice on spying, in the full knowledge China tortures its religious minorities, including Christians?
ReplyDeletehttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/yad-lachim-support-persecution-of-religious-minorities-in-china/
"Gene, did you read Ha'aretz's article on the bombing? "
ReplyDeletePlease post link to that article.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966623.html
ReplyDeleteRegarding whether it was the anti-missionaries or the Palestinians who carried out the bombing, my understanding from the family is that the cameras show a man whose face cannot be made out, but who is wearing Orthodox Jewish garb.
ReplyDeleteA quote from a friend of the family:
I have become aware that many believers are arguing over whether the perpetrators were Muslim terrorists (disguised as orthodox Jews) or Jewish antimissionaries (acting like terrorists). We aren't going to nail that one down, no matter how much we discuss and argue. But be assured that the Lord knows EXACTLY who they are, and that is enough.
"Why did Yad L'Achim give the Chinese authorities advice on spying, in the full knowledge China tortures its religious minorities, including Christians?"
ReplyDeleteI don't know - from what I am reading, China invited many different cult experts from many nations, including those from the U.S.
Please demonstrate your protest with your money - refuse to buy ANY Chinese-manufactured goods and stop giving your money to the Chinese government (which owns, and directly or indirectly runs many of the factories, including the forced labor ones where Christians and Falun Gong members may work as virtual slaves) that persecutes Christians and other religious minorities.
Why must I boycott a country to make an observation about how they treat religious minorities? Aren't we supposed to give to God what is God's and give to Caesar what is Caesar's?
ReplyDelete"Aren't we supposed to give to God what is God's and give to Caesar what is Caesar's?"
ReplyDeleteHold on, are you saying that you MUST BUY something made in the country of CHINA, and you don't have a choice about whether or not you'll give your money to pay for products possibly produced by forced labor of Christians and others in that particular totalitarian country?
If that's the argument you're going to use to keep on buying Chinese products (and you KNOW that the Chinese government uses prison forced labor in many of its factories, including those of persecuted believers and Falun Gong members) - why blame Yad L'Achim for accepting China's cult experts conference invitation (to combat whoever the Chinese "Caesar" considers a "cult") ?
Judah... "Regarding whether it was the anti-missionaries or the Palestinians who carried out the bombing, my understanding from the family is that the cameras show a man whose face cannot be made out, but who is wearing Orthodox Jewish garb."
ReplyDeletePalestinian suicide bombers have impersonated the Orthodox MANY, MANY times while committing their crimes. It's a common pattern for them.
http://www.vosizneias.com/2918/2006/03/30/israel-three-israelis-killed-by/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/18/mideast.violence/index.html
http://www.sott.net/signs/signs_suicide_bomb_supplement.htm
It's certainly possible.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to demonize Orthodox Jews. FWIW, the Ortiz family reports many from the local Orthodox community came to visit at the hospital. Some of them, figuring the multitude of reports of a Jewish extremist responsible for the bombing had some truth to it, apologized and condemned whoever carried out the attacks.
Whether or not they're responsible for the Ortiz bombing, the acts that Yad L'achim et al have done, and are on trial for, are vile and must be brought into the light. I'm happy to see Rosh Pina carrying out this work.
Gene, you are sounding like the Yad L'Achim fan club here! Do you really have more in common with them than with your secular background Israeli Messianic Jews who face regular harrasment from their peyilim?
ReplyDeleteGev
Gev... "Gene, you are sounding like the Yad L'Achim fan club here! Do you really have more in common with them than with your secular background Israeli Messianic Jews who face regular harrasment from their peyilim?"
ReplyDeleteI am simply against demonizing of ANY particular set of Jews, against the "us" vs "them" towards the yet-Yeshua-unbelieving devout Jews and Orthodox Judaism in general, which a sad mentality carried over from Christianity and still prevalent in many parts of the Messianic movement.
Yes, they are enemies of the Gospel (for Gentiles' sake) and yes, they are against Jews like me, who believe, and yet, in spite of all that, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. (Romans 11:28) I refuse to join in the condemnation chorus. Some day, soon, G-d willing, they will receive the Messiah they've been waiting for - as Jews.
If you suffer for Messiah's sake - you should rejoice for being counted worthy - persecution is what makes the Body of Messiah grow stronger. If the next time there was some attack on Messianic Jews, and instead of going to the world press to point the finger and posting videos all over the web to raise sympathy from churches and some money too, instead of fighting and railing against their persecutors (which early believers didn't seem to do), if Messianic Jews proclaimed forgiveness and love to gather coals on the heads of of those who hate - now that would have made a bigger difference. I doubt that Yad L'Achim peylim or even secular Hebrew-speaking Israelis read your blogs - who is then the audience you are trying to reach?
I am personally against demonizing anyone, including the demonization of Messianic Jews particularly in Israel. Most of those in Israel who suffer grassroots harassment, do as you say and heap coals of fire by blessing and forgiving them.
ReplyDeleteHowever you seem to make easy condemnations of Israeli Messianic Jews whilst you, correct me if I am wrong, don't suffer as they do, in America the land of the free and brave!
RPP is aimed at those who love truth and justice for all & where one part of the body suffers we all should feel it. BTW RPP has been linked to in two major Jewish blogs Jewcy & various secular Jewish blogs.
You have not interacted with any of my previous comments!
Gev
Regarding who attacked Ami Ortiz
ReplyDeleteIsraeli newspaper Yated Ne'eman reported September 29 2008 on the murder attempt on Professor Zev Sternhell after his anti right wing comments. The author suggested that the explosive device, a similar one near the monastery in Beit Jamal in 2007, the explosion of a small device in the Ramot neighbourhood of Jerusalem a month later, and that which severely injured Ami Ortiz the son of Messianic Jewish pastor, were all the work of the same group responsible for the attack against Sternhell.
"However you seem to make easy condemnations of Israeli Messianic Jews whilst you, correct me if I am wrong, don't suffer as they do, in America the land of the free and brave!"
ReplyDeleteI am a Ukrainian Jew, my family and I lived with antisemitism and hatred just about every day I lived in my former county - before moving to U.S. as s refugee. I know exactly what it means to be hated, mocked, demonized and excluded, specifically as a Jew.
"You have not interacted with any of my previous comments!"
I thought I answered your comments along with other answers [to others] I posted. But, here's one I missed:
"However does that also mean it was wrong for the Jewish Press to report on the Hardei scandal of the Rabbi Elior Chen sect or the Agriprocessors news story, or even Madoff? Does it cause antisemitism, no, but it does add to confirming existing predjudice."
No, it's not wrong for Jewish press to report Jewish misdoings. But, is it ALL they are doing? If one is focusing only on the bad, that's prejudice. However, if you too mixed good AND bad stories about the Orthodox on your blog (like how they visited the Ortiz family to show support) - now that would really do well to counter prejudice.
How about posting a nice disclaimer on your website, something in in effect that only a very few Orthodox Jews harass Messianic believers, while the rest are good law-abiding citizens who seek to live G-dly lives.
Gene, RPP is careful to talk about specific organizations, activists and events, never a blanket criticism of Frum brethren, making it clear that the vast body of klal Yisroel is against such extremism.
ReplyDeleteGev
Why the semantics over who is causing anti-semitism? Gene thinks that exposing anti-missionary activity causes anti-semitism, and the anti-missionary groups think that talking to Jews about Yeshua is anti semitism.
ReplyDeleteThey can't all be right.
Ah, the rich, bittersweet tapestry that is the miracle of Israel!
On holidays in Thailand recently I was privileged to meet an Israeli woman (as yet I know no Israelis nor have any contacts in Israel). She was a "refusenik", a Russian immigrant. She is a "secular" Jew. So, from a moral or political point of view, it is a roller coaster ride. E.g, she would speak with much scorn for the ultra religious, couldn't stand the Shas party, lauded the gay movement and exhibited morals that I wouldn't share...
...yet she had no problem talking about Jesus and lamenting the treatment of MJ's in Israel. Leave them be, she says. It's Israel. You're free to be whatever you choose. That's what she loves so much about being Israeli.
I may be over-simplifying things here but that's a refreshing and relaxing attitude. I suppose my point is that those "freedoms"... G-d will use them for His purposes, just as He can use a Sabbath-honouring MJ.
So I returned from a holiday in Thailand with even more love and appreciation for Israel!
P. H. Atherton... "Gene thinks that exposing anti-missionary activity causes anti-semitism, and the anti-missionary groups think that talking to Jews about Yeshua is anti semitism. They can't all be right."
ReplyDeleteSure they CAN be. I don't think it's as simple as that, and certainly not in every case. Exposing anti-missionary activity via videos titled ""This is why people hate the Jews" feeds the antisemities (does it not?). Missionising the Jews into Protestants the classic Evangelical way by separating them from their culture and by ridiculing as obsolete the traditional Jewish way of life and Israel's G-d-given laws (in the name of Jesus, mind you) - in my opinion it is theological (latent?) antisemitism. Of course, there are always degrees of everything.
"You're free to be whatever you choose. That's what she loves so much about being Israeli. I may be over-simplifying things here but that's a refreshing and relaxing attitude."
First of all - aside from the crazy modern times we live in and the fact that most Jews today are either secular or atheist, Israel as a nation DOESN'T have a choice or freedom to do whatever it wants to do - it doesn't have its pick of religion, god(s), or lifestyle.
It's only because the Messianic Jews are a tiny minority in Israel without any power or voice and because the religious Jews are so reviled for sticking to and pushing on others their "backward" way of life on the seculars - this is why MJs are looked upon with sympathy (they are not a threat to the seculars).
But lest you start thinking that the freedom-loving liberals or atheists have much affection for Yeshua-believers (Jews or Gentiles) - come to U.S.
I think the anti-missionaries who use insults and violence against missionaries are not really defending Judaism. If they want to defend Judaism, they should not be worried and show confidence that their arguments can beat the missionaries' arguments. If you feel that you can't win using ideas, then you use other techniques.
ReplyDeleteI know that many anti-missionaries can be mean and insulting because I have been treated rough by some even though I am on the same side. I just disagreed with them about what certain quotes say and mean, and they insulted me.
The only way to deal with these disagreements is with discussions about these controversial quotes and beliefs without calling each other deceptive all of the time.
Kenneth Greifer
"The only way to deal with these disagreements is with discussions about these controversial quotes and beliefs without calling each other deceptive all of the time."
ReplyDeleteKenneth ... totally agree - that's the whole point I was trying to make. I think one can make a strong argument about why someone or some group is wrong without making them or associated groups into hated enemies.
These Jews are zealous for G-d just as Shaul was before he believed - but they are without understanding when it comes to true His true nature and purpose (and his Messiah Yeshua). I truly feel sorry for them - they are my people too - I just can't hate them, as much as I may be tempted sometimes because of their actions against followers of Yeshua.
"The only way to deal with these disagreements is with discussions about these controversial quotes and beliefs without calling each other deceptive all of the time."
ReplyDeleteI agree that is a good way to go about it. I will watch my language in the future.
What? We defend Yad L'Achim when they literally fill Shaul's description in Romans 10:
ReplyDelete"...they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God."
And we condemn the FEW in the Christian or Messianic communities attempting to tell the truth in love about the situation in Israel?
We are "fueling anti-semitism" because we are speaking out against the injustice that has spilled over into attempted murder - not just in the Ami Ortiz case, but also an attempt in Arad when the ultra-Orthodox man splashed gasoline around the King's Men building and was going to light it while people were inside?
Do you know the judge in that case decided he man was just "mentally unstable" and sentenced him to go to a facility for a few months - from which he was allowed DAILY to leave the facility on his own recognizance?
In Texas we call that B.S. justice.
Someone needs to get real honest with themselves...Gene.
Donna Diorio
Israelprayer.com