The older I get, the more I cringe when I hear religious people calling other religious people “heretics” over theological disagreements. I’m no longer flippant in using that term.
The older I become, the fewer heretics exist.
On the other hand, what do you do with people that don’t agree with you? Just tolerate them and move on? Drop your convictions and sing “What a wonderful world?”
Like a twisted fascination with carnivals, I’m fascinated by all the foolish religious mumbo-jumbo going on in Christianity. You sit back and watch the horror.
Blogs like EndTimesPropheticWords and other heresy-hunter blogs I find quite amusing:
- Oh look, the Latter Rain Manifest movement is doing something hokey.
- The Dominionists are speaking some blasphemy.
- The New Apostolic Reformation folks have some crazy doctrine and they’re all dogmatic about it.
- There’s a revival down in Florida. Nope, it wasn’t real.
- Now another in Kansas. Woops, that wasn’t real either.
- Some preacher in the UK is passing out an offering basket while singing “We All Live in a Yellow Submarine.”
Waldo God? Can you find him in our religious carnival extraordinaire?
Evangelical Christianity is fragmented to the Nth degree, with a theology for every crazy idea under the sun and a heresy hunter for every theology.
I don’t want Messianic Judaism to be like Evangelical Christianity.
2008 saw Messianic Judaism fragment: division over the role of Torah for gentiles, division over the 2 houses of Israel theology, division over the role of the Spirit in worship services, division over the role of liturgy, division over the role of rabbinic authority, division over use of God’s name. Tragically, we even witnessed an influx of polygamy, and the resulting division over that.
Man, I don’t want Messianic Judaism to head down the same path as Evangelical Christianity. I don’t want to make Messianic Judaism into the carnival of flavors – and heresies – Evangelical Christianity suffers from. I’m willing to relax my own personal theologies, and become less dogmatic about them, in order to allow the Messianic movement more unity.
Is this the right approach, dear blog readers?
I’m not going to bother refuting some of the issues brought up here. I’ve come to the conclusion after many years that people are going to believe what they want to believe. But I will say this, what do you think that the dancing and rejoicing Israel made before God looked like. A Presbyterian Church service?
ReplyDeleteWhat I will say is this, have any of us figured God out yet? Read Job. What’s to say that the fragmentation is not God testing the hearts of His people to see what’s more important? Doctrine or Love. One point that Bob makes is if your doctrine is more important, then fragmentation is the result. However if love is more important you learn to see thru Heaven’s eyes (Hebraic thought) and see past the differences.
Either God is in heaven and He has total control, or satan does. Now if satan does, we are all in trouble. However if God is in control, are not all things according to His will? I’m not saying that all things that happen are His “Good pleasure”, meaning the best that He has for us. But what I am saying is that things happen that God is not pleased with, but because of the state of the age and free will, He allows them to happen. This does not mean He is not in control.
We really need to stop focusing on the bad stuff and keep our eyes on Yeshua, who is the author and perfecter of our faith. He can do all things, if we let Him. NOTHING is impossible for Him, even those things we think will never be resolved in our lives.
Lou,
ReplyDeleteYeah, I hear you.
The heresy hunters will claim most anything as heresy; one video of a woman dancing to the Lord was considered an "heretical tribal dance". I laughed, imagining to myself what these heresy hunters would think of David dancing naked before God.
God does things we think weird. I accept that.
People also abuse religion and do things not-from-God. I have accepted that too.
I agree we need to stop focusing on the bad stuff.
But where do we go from there?
I mean, do we ignore the polygamy doctrine in fringe Messianic groups? Or do you say, "You cannot be part of our congregation because of your beliefs?"
If either approach is correct, I'll do it. Right now I'm leaning towards the former; just tolerate theological differences, extend the "heretic" boundary way out there, and use your life as an example.
I just don't want Messianic Judaism to become fragmented. At the same time, I don't want heretical doctrines infusing Messianic Judaism.
It's true, God is in control. Do I play any part here? Can we control what shapes Messianic Judaism?
"I just don't want Messianic Judaism to become fragmented. At the same time, I don't want heretical doctrines infusing Messianic Judaism.
ReplyDeleteIt's true, God is in control. Do I play any part here? Can we control what shapes Messianic Judaism?"
Judah... with all due respect, and I will say this as calmly and civilly as I can - the Two House movement and the numerous One Law / Hebrew Roots movements and their corresponding strings of issues (Gentiles as lost Israelites, One Law, "Judaism" without Jews or their traditions, polygamy, etc.) are not part of the mainstream Messianic Judaism. You felt free to call polygamy groups "fringe" - forgive me when I feel free to also include your "Two House" movement into the "fringe" category. These pseudo-Jewish movements exist far apart from the Jewish-led MJ community (which has issued many joint papers condemning the teachings and confusion sowed by those movements).
You don't want MJ to be fragmented? If you consider your Jew-free version of Judaism (Two House/ One Law) part of MJ, it's already fragmented - so it's too late - the mainstream Messianic Judaism wants nothing to do with it.
In the name of civilized discourse, I hope my words have not offended anyone here.
Shalom,
Gene
Gene,
ReplyDeleteYou consider "Torah for gentiles" to be heretical, or at least not part of mainstream Judaism.
I think the reverse it true, I think it is your Two Law doctrine that is not mainstream. In fact, I believe your doctrine would find a better home in Evangelical Christianity than Messianic Judaism.
After all, some of the larger Messianic organizations like FFOZ are in favor of Torah for gentiles.
I suspect many, if not most Messianic congregations in the United States are in pro-Torah, for both Jew and gentile. I've visited many Messianic congregations over the years in 4 different US states, and only 1 Messianic synagogue that believes as you do, Gene.
You're attempting to paint every doctrine not your own as "heretical", Gene, or at least, as a fringe doctrine not part of Messianic Judaism.
This is your first error.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is fringe. If they were, you'd be left with a tiny Messianic movement containing 1 person: Gene Shlomovich. The rest you'd kick out over differences on rabbinic authority, the role of the Spirit in worship, liturtigical preferences, the name of God, Two House, Torah for gentiles, prayer in the Spirit, issues regarding the rabbinic calendar ...
If it helps the mainstream Messianic movement, I'm willing to relax my own theologies and be less dogmatic about them if it means more unity in Messiah. I only wonder whether that is the proper approach.
I should end all that with, "Even though Gene Shlomovich's doctrine is wrong, I don't consider him a heretic, and I'd still welcome him into a Messianic congregation."
ReplyDeleteThe good thing for everyone is that in spite of what human beings try to do, our Almighty God in Heaven knows how things are going to end up in the long run.
ReplyDeleteNot enough people know the complexities of religious history. If they did, they would see that the divisions manifesting themselves are pretty normal for new movements. We will, in all liklihood, go through the same challenges that anyone who has preceded us in faith has likewise gone through.
How do this in a constructive way, where we *first* focus on what we have in common--Yeshua the Messiah and His salvation--is entirely up to us.
"You're attempting to paint every doctrine not your own as "heretical", Gene, or at least, as a fringe doctrine not part of Messianic Judaism."
ReplyDeleteJudah... tell me of a single doctrine put out by, say, UMJC, that I proclaimed as heretical. My point is I am in agreement with the mainstream Messianic Jewish Community.
"After all, some of the larger Messianic organizations like FFOZ are in favor of Torah for gentiles. "
As far as I can tell, most mainstream MJ organizations avoid FFOZ materials. FFOZ left UMJC because their visions for Gentile Torah observance requirements were worlds apart. BTW, FFOZ told me a few weeks back that they have changed their stance recently - they no longer insist on Torah observance as being required for Gentiles (for holy living) - now their view is that it's totally voluntary for non-Jews (with which I agree).
"Not everyone who disagrees with you is fringe. If they were, you'd be left with a tiny Messianic movement containing 1 person: Gene Shlomovich."
Fortunately, that's not the case.
"If it helps the mainstream Messianic movement, I'm willing to relax my own theologies and be less dogmatic about them if it means more unity in Messiah. I only wonder whether that is the proper approach."
Since you view yourself as a Jew (since you say you have Jews in your background) - you can start by joining the mainstream Messianic Jewish movement of which Derek Leman is part, toning down the Two-House beliefs (which are offensive to many if not most MJs), and by following FFOZ lead by adopting the stance that the Torah living for Gentiles while beneficial, is not an obligation (for them), but is one for Jews.
Just some friendly feedback...
Gene
So, J.K., that all sounds good, this focusing on Yeshua as a common denominator.
ReplyDeleteBut in practice, how do you make that work?
Real-life example:
If Moshe Koniuchowsky, the Jew who believes in Messiah, runs his own congregation, but is in favor of polygamy, came to your congregation, how would you deal with it?
Would you argue with him?
Would you put down your own convictions in the greater spirit of unity?
Would you simply not talk about it?
In the case of MK, his views of Christology and mine are wholly incompatible. He actually believes and teaches that the Messiah was a leper, a teaching fabricated from his own mind (if not designed to sell materials and make a quick buck.) In his case, we have very different concepts of Yeshua. We also have very, very different views of what the Bible says about the prophesied restoration of Israel.
ReplyDeleteI would actually have more in common with Calvinists and Weseleyans who believe that Jesus kept the Old Testament Law, and surely did not abolish the Torah's moral law, and are very interested in seeing Christ in His Jewish context and reevaluating aspects of the so-called "ceremonial law."
Gene,
ReplyDeleteI'm not here to make you a heretic.
Messianic Judaism is going to have to deal with differences in theology. The answer cannot always be, "You're a heretic!" as you often say or imply.
It's ironic that you tell me to do as Derek Leman -- a Messianic gentile who has joined himself to Israel and by all means, behaves as a Jew; yet you rail against gentiles who believe themselves "grafted into Israel" and part of Israel and rail yet more against those who follow God's Torah, as Derek does.
JK,
ReplyDeleteI'm unfamiliar with his Christology and his views about Messiah as a leper. Gosh, that sounds terrible. One of those theologies that will scare people off just by the sound of it! :-) I will do some more research on him.
Does he believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, and that Messiah (sorry to use a religious cliche) saved us?
If so, I wonder how to deal with such people. Focus on our common Messiah who saved us? Make him an outcast/heretic? Debate from the Scriptures with him? Ignore him?
This whole post and the comments following are in that line of questioning...in general, how do you deal with theological differences among Messianics?
We can complain about this. We can get discouraged. Or we can do the hard work, correcting ourselves when necessary, or standing up for our convictions in a respectful way.
ReplyDeleteI take a lot of comfort from the life story of John Calvin (which is funny as I'm no Calvinist). He lived during the period of the Radical Reformation. There were a lot of nuts and fruits who thought they could go into cemeteries, raise people from the dead, and then march on Rome and overthrow the pope. We don't hear about the Radical Reformers that much, as many of them were killed by the papal guards. Calvin stuck to the work that he needed to do: writing theology and commentaries that people still use today.
We need people who can recognize that this is a long term project of the Father. It is the classic tortise and the hare. A lot of the Two-House people, very sadly and most unfortunate, have taken the focus off of the Scriptures and on to secondary and tertiary issues. Doesn't mean the issue is going away--but it does mean that a more mature and reasonable approach is needed. And believe me, there is a lot of stuff out there that the Messianic world, wherever you are on the spectrum, flat avoids.
The term heresy is used far too frequently, when it should be reserved only for matters of an immediate salvation nature. I'm in the process right now of writing an article (been on my list for 3-4 years) on the intermediate state between death and resurrection. Viewing all of the different perspectives, I think someone who thinks there's no afterlife before resurrection is really misguided, or at least a one-dimensional thinker. But what's commonly called "soul sleep" is not heresy, it's just an aberration. (There are other topics I could list, but the article's up to 44 pages.)
JKM
"It's ironic that you tell me to do as Derek Leman -- a Messianic gentile who has joined himself to Israel and by all means, behaves as a Jew; yet you rail against gentiles who believe themselves "grafted into Israel" and part of Israel and rail yet more against those who follow God's Torah, as Derek does."
ReplyDeleteIt's not ironic. I'm fully aware that Derek is a Gentile. I wrestled a lot with that idea when I first came across his blog (as Derek will confirm), and I am still not fully on board with the idea of Gentiles converting within Messianic Judaism - but I came to view his case as quite different, even unique in many respects. As some Orthodox Jews say, Derek may have a "Jewish nephesh", or soul - by which I mean not something ethereal or some long-lost ancestry, bBut rather, I believe that he has a genuine affection towards the Jewish nation, deep respect for Israel and it's community, deep respect for Jewish leadership within MJ and willingness to abide by community standards, a unwavering desire to join it and become one with us, to defend the Jewish cause at great personal expense.
The gentile conversion trend within MJ concerns me deeply, make no mistake about it and I believe that it may be wide open for abuse (I hope not).
However, since you're a Jew (right?), why the concern? Just join your people.
Judah and Gene:
ReplyDeleteI am glad you brought up the issue of conversion. Yes, I am in the process of conversion with the MJRC (ourrabbis.org).
Conversion should be no problem for you, Gene, as this is halakhically correct. The MJRC oversees conversion in a very mature manner. Conversion in MJ as in any other Judaism should be about belonging to the Jewish people and should be undertaken by people who know the choice they are making and do so under watchcare and accountability.
Judah would likely see conversion as unnecessary, feeling that being grafted in already joins one to Israel in the full sense (essentially making one a Jew). Not sure I'm putting it the way Judah would.
I believe conversion is important, necessary, and the right option for people who are called to join Israel. I feel conversion is not the only option for non-Jews in Messianic Judaism. I believe in inclusion for non-Jews in MJ without conversion. It is a complex topic and more than we can get into in a comment thread.
Derek Leman
derek4messiah.wordpress.com
JK
ReplyDeleteThanks for that answer. I needed to hear that encouragement. For me, it clarifies where I ought to stand on the issue of heresy.
Derek,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
I didn't mean to cast doubt on your authenticity as a Messianic. I used it to discuss something else with Gene.
I don't have a problem with a formal conversion. I am unsure whether it's necessary, yes.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteI would like to say I don't get upset with some of the stuff I see, but I would be lying. I think I have made it clear in the past that much of the prosperity gospel bugs me. I also know that some (much?) of what I write bothers you.
I don't think any one person or group has everything right; has the corner on truth. I have no problem with people believing what they believe...I know what believe. I have no problem with them being passionate about what they believe, I know I am. I believe God's children are called to unity, but recognize that unity isn't the same as uniformity,
The only thing I have resolved to do is keep my eyes on Jesus and to trust Him to work everything out. I have no control over any of it anyway...I would just screw it up if I did. I do trust in the power of God not only to transform my life; I trust Him to transform the world as well. The trap we fall into is deciding for ourselves what that looks like.
In Christ,
Gary
Judah,
ReplyDeleteTake heart…I believe all of these fragments, Christian, Jewish and Messianic are all a necessary and very natural part of the process. We would not need to be called back if we were never lost to the world or lost to our own understanding.
It’s unfortunate that so many of these groups have set up camp and boxed themselves in. It sounds like that is what Messianic Judaism has done, also. It sounds to me, by Gene’s testimony, like a very exclusive club where bloodlines and genealogy not only matter but must be proven, and God’s instructions and commandments are optional or divided depending on nationalities. Only the Father knows, but it doesn’t add up on my end.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteThis comment confuses me,
“If you consider your Jew-free version of Judaism (Two House/ One Law) part of MJ, it's already fragmented - so it's too late - the mainstream Messianic Judaism wants nothing to do with it.”
I’m not a part of a Jew-free version of Judaism. I don’t even know what in the world that would look like. Is that like a Christian-free version of Christianity if I shrug off the traditions of the Catholic church in favor of a Bible only approach to my faith.
What is it about Two House/ One Law that is so radical and fringy to you? It’s not like you never see it in the Bible. You’re free to disagree all you want, but to talk about it as if it’s so far-out in left field makes no sense at all.
And mainstream Messianic Judaism wants nothing to do with us? Where’s the love, brother? Why is that so threatening? Why should that difference in theology divide us?
Where exactly do you think the Northern tribes are? Have the masses of them already returned to Israel? Can you prove it without a shadow of a doubt? Will you or do you consider them Jewish or gentile? What Law will they follow when they return? Why am I still a gentile to you, Gene? I am not to God. Since when had gentile become a nationality, anyway? You don’t know what my bloodlines are…and I only know a couple generations back. We shouldn’t even be arguing this. And I’m so glad that our radical, on the fringe group doesn’t.
You said, “ … Torah living for Gentiles while beneficial, is not an obligation (for them), but is one for Jews.”
I think it’s fruitless to play these games of who is and who is not. One Father, one Son, one Holy Spirit, one way to salvation and eternal life, one people, one Law.
Hey, Gene... One Law Messianic Judaism is Jew-free? As a Jewish man who is in the leadership of an international MJ group that proclaims Torah for all Believers, which has plenty of Jews in leadership (in fact, our top level is entirely Jewish), I find that offensive.
ReplyDeleteTry checking your "facts" before spouting them.
Judah, First Fruits desires to be part of a MJ movement that is respectful. I appreciate your sentiments. Forgive the length of this reply; I just feel that to some degree we are at the heart of this current debate.
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine, the leader of a Messianic congregation in Colorado, happened to be a Gentile. When a prominent Messianic Jewish teacher was in town, my friend went to hear him speak. After the lecture, my friend went up to the speaker and asked him, “What about Gentile obligation to keep the Torah? Aren’t Gentile believers obligated the same as Jewish believers?” The teacher reached into his pocket and took out a pocketknife. He opened the blade, turned to my friend and said, “You want to be obligated to keep Torah? We can take care of that right now. This is where the obligation begins.” My friend declined the offer for an on-the-spot circumcision. A bit crass, but a point that requires some consideration, consider this text.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Torah. (Galatians 5:3)
At First Fruits of Zion, we believe that Gentile believers have the privilege of participating along with Israel in the practice of Judaism, Torah observance and keeping the commandments. Our mission is to “Proclaim the Torah, and its way of life, fully-centered on Messiah, to today’s people of God.” The Torah is a beautiful inheritance in Messiah, a rich treasury of spiritual blessing which Gentile believers should be encouraged to take hold of. However, we do not teach that Gentiles are “obligated” to keep the whole Torah because the apostles did not teach such “obligation.”
We have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” – to whom we gave no such commandment. (Acts 15:24, NKJV)
To follow in the example of the crass MJ leader, let me ask a direct question, "Tell me, you who desire to be 'obligated' under the Torah, do you not hear the Torah? Have you been ritually circumcised? (Non-ritual, medical circumcision at birth doesn’t cut it.) Did you put on tefillin this morning? (I know, you think that this is a metaphor not literal.) Are you eating according to the laws of Kashrut? (Note: Isn’t easy to eat kosher when it is your own self define self-definition of “biblical kosher”). Are you keeping the whole Torah? Do you really want to be “obligated?”
Do you see the trouble that the word obligation brings? Do you see how it places a burden on one that does not give space to grow and mature? Do you see how this word divides?
FFOZ is encourages Gentiles to keep Torah. We want to see all people embrace the commandments within the proper context, out of a love for Hashem and as a matter of discipleship to the Master. Not out of a sense of misplaced obligation. We think that this approach is in greater alignment with the teaching and direction of the apostolic community. We love to see people reorder their lives around God’s commandments—we think that this was the message of the Prophets to the nations.
The apostles invite the nations to Torah. They open the door for them to participate in the believing synagogue and with the Jewish people. That is why, when addressing Gentile believers, we speak in terms of “invitation,” “permission,” “opportunity,” instead of “obligation,” “should,” “must,” and “have to.”
For those of you that are hung up on this and insist on the use of the word obligation. Can you please give me an apostolic example of the use of such language for gentiles? Can we discuss your life in light of mitvot? Can we not give others the space to grow and mature in matters of faith and observance that we all need?
Again, and to be clear, this does not limit ones opportunity to embrace and fully live out the commandments--we just are choosing to communicate that message as an opportunity to reflect the Messiah.
We are obligated to imitate the Master and He is a good shepherd--let's let him lead each of us as we are able.
I think it would be best for all of us concerned if we do the required homework to adequately interpret the Scripture passages we so strongly believe make our arguement. This cannot take place by just haphazardly throwing around this quote or that, but engaging with the larger cotext of passages and in placing them in their ancient setting. This takes time and study that many (even many Christians) are unwilling to commit.
ReplyDeleteEmotionalism and pointing the finger and who-did-what-wrong will not solve very much. We might not all agree on things that happen in today's Messianic world, and we might think that our vision is better than somebody else's. So if that is what someone believes, focus on your own work and calling, because bantering around with someone else with whom you have a strong disagreement might very well take *you* away from the distinct assignments that our Heavenly Father has assigned to you in ministering to those He has sent to you.
JKM
Boaz,
ReplyDeleteI'm honored that you posted here on the blog. I have a lot of respect for you and your organization. I haven't yet respond to your email, as I wanted to first discuss your comment on Derek's blog with some people wiser than myself.
Thank you for all the work of Messiah you've done for Jews and gentiles.
I'm rejoicing to hear you guys still believe gentiles should be taught God's commandments in the Torah. If we are obligated to imitate the Master, what better way than to observe Torah as the Master did.
I believe Torah is an important part of a holy life for God. Jew or gentile. If we can agree on that, then for the sake of unity in Messiah, I can relax my dogmatic insistence on using terms like "obligated". I think I'd rather have unity in Messiah than division over terminology.
Judah, obligation to imitation of Messiah transcends all of the issues and layers of difficulty when discussing issues of this nature. We have found this to be productive and fruit bearing. There are several additional/tangible benefits as well. I would be happy to discuss those with you when we speak. For now, I would, for clarity sake like to post two official position statements:
ReplyDelete**Here is an official position and statement for FFOZ.**
Messiah Centered
In Judaism it is often said, “keep Torah for the sake of Torah.” This small and poignant statement is meant to communicate that one should not keep Torah for the reward, the benefit, or even the joy, but rather as a simple act of obedience. While we understand this principle, we do not keep Torah for the sake of Torah alone; we also keep Torah as a matter of discipleship to our Master Yeshua.
This is a critical component of our communications here at First Fruits of Zion. We try to always place emphasis on being a “disciple of the Master” rather than on being “Torah observant.” The path of discipleship leads to Torah observance, but we must remain focused in the right place—solidly on the Messiah. Our interest in Torah, tradition, Jewish studies, etc., begins and ends with our desire to be better disciples of the Master.
In our communications, one should read us pointing to discipleship more often than Torah observance—in doing this it is our intent to keep things properly centered on Messiah because he is our only connecting point to the Torah.
**
Apostolic Posture
To be consistent with the position of the Apostles in regard to the responsibility to Torah, we need to be open and inviting as opposed to placing demands, expressing dogmatism, and being judgmental. We believe it best to communicate the Torah messages with graciousness and patience.
We strive to practice the principle given by the sages: “Be among the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people, and bringing them closer to the Torah” (m.Avot 1:12). When we embrace the principles of peace and love, we can echo the words of early Jewish believers to the nations regarding the Torah: “If you are able to bear all the yoke of the Lord [i.e., Torah], you will be perfect; but if you are not able, do as much as you are able to do” (Didache 6:2). We prefer to wrap difficult theological truths in compassionate and tolerant words, avoiding terms like “should,” “must,” and “have to.” Language of purpose fits better with the expectations of faith.
Our resources encourage practical application through graciously challenging each of us to consider proper Torah application.
We will always strive to be balanced and accountable.
Boaz,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the clear statement.
You suggest that imitation of Messiah will lead to Torah observance. As long as we do not err in seeing Messiah as a Torah-less Messiah, as the Church often has done, then I believe you're right.
I wish you guys the best.
-Judah
Of course. That is why we have, or strive to have, "high personal standards without condemnation." You cannot look at the work, message, or the personal lives of our teaches and staff and think we are teaching that Messiah led his disciples away from Torah. Offline I will send you our entire position paper on this.
ReplyDelete“ The question of 'Must I follow' or 'Am I required to follow' is really a non-issue. It is curious to pose such questions in the first place. God loves me; I attempt to return that love as best as I am able in as many ways as He directs. I don't 'have' to love God and He doesn't 'have' to love me (setting aside the idea that He 'must' love because He 'is' love). However, as a child in His household or a citizen of His Kingdom, voluntarily accepting His fatherhood over me and His position as my King and Master, it doesn't make any sense to ask if I 'have' to follow His Word. I am obliged to do what He asks; not because it is 'required' but because it is the relationship I have chosen.”
ReplyDelete-Quote from www.wholebible.com.
I agree that Torah keeping is not an obligation for non-Jews, but when has it been an obligation for anyone? I would never say that Jews are “obligated” to keep Torah, either. It seems like the Father gave us [Jew and non-Jew] free will so that we could choose to have faith in Him, love Him, praise and worship Him, or not and choose obedience or lawlessness on a voluntary basis, no matter our genealogy, from the very beginning.
Whether you come at it from a pure Christian perspective, a pure Jewish perspective or any combo of the two, it looks to me as though true faith, and the obedience that will follow it, have always been a process of growing, maturing, and deepening that has no ending.
The other debate that seems to come up is whether obedience is defined differently for Jews and non-Jews?
Lydia...
ReplyDelete"It’s unfortunate that so many of these groups have set up camp and boxed themselves in. It sounds like that is what Messianic Judaism has done, also."
Messianic Judaism primary function is to be a place where Jewish believers can find a spiritual home and worship their Maschiach as Jews. Gentile believers who VOLUNTARILY choose to bind themselves to Messianic Jews understand that and don't try to change Messianic Judaism to adopt to their own vision of what it should and shouldn't be. I hope that you will understand that someday.
"... God's instructions and commandments are optional or divided depending on nationalities."
Bible describes many Torah obligation applicable only to Jewish people (Cohens and Levites) come to mind). Also, as Boaz mentioned in his comments, the scripture clearly indicates that Gentiles are not bound to keep the whole Torah the way Jews are:
"And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Torah. (Galatians 5:3)"
So, Lydia... you problem is not with me - you just do not like what you're reading the Word.
"I'm not a part of a Jew-free version of Judaism. I don't even know what in the world that would look like."
Being "Jewish" is more than having services that "look" Jewish. It's being part of the Jewish Community. Most One Law or Two House "synagogues" are not part of the mainstream Messianic Jewish Community (and some are anti-semitic or at least very resentful of Jewish believers).
"And mainstream Messianic Judaism wants nothing to do with us? Where’s the love, brother? Why is that so threatening? Why should that difference in theology divide us?"
You don't seem to extend the same courtesy to the Christian believers (many Two-House/One Law folks CONSTANTLY berate Christians and churches as practicing pagan traditions or idolatry). I remember that J.K. McKee spoke up against this. Where's the love, Lydia?
"Where exactly do you think the Northern tribes are? Have the masses of them already returned to Israel? Can you prove it without a shadow of a doubt? Will you or do you consider them Jewish or gentile? What Law will they follow when they return?"
The Jews today represent the 12 tribes and are not lost (James 1:1).
As Rabbi Adam J. Bernay, who commented here earlier, said of the Two House movement on his own website:
"We are NOT..."Two-House"... or any of the other bizarre, cult-like sub-movements that have branched off from the Messianic movement in the last decade or so."
I agree with Adam, that Two-House is a modern invention, twisting of scripture to make it say something it doesn't. If you want to continue to believe in that myth, it's your prerogative - but for your sake, I hope you do not.
"Why am I still a gentile to you, Gene? I am not to God. Since when had gentile become a nationality, anyway? "
Why is being a "Gentile" or non-Jewish a bad thing? It simply means one of the nations, a non-Jew - don't put a negative spin on it or be self-hating! There will be nations other than Israel in the world to come, don't you know? G-d loves the nations he created.
"One Father, one Son, one Holy Spirit, one way to salvation and eternal life, one people, one Law."
True - but not everything in the Law applies equally to everybody - that's where you're making your mistake. Check your Bible - even men and women have different requirements!
Shalom!
Gene
Oh, Gene, I am having a ball with this one.
ReplyDeleteYou quote Rabbi Bernay from this link: Beit Tefillah - Statement of Faith
But get this, dear blog readers, Gene omits a few words from Rabbi Bernay's statement. Included in those few words is a "dual covenant" theology, which Bernay then explains is the idea that gentiles have no obligation to keep the Torah -- exactly as Gene believes.
Woops!
In other words, Gene quotes Rabbi Bernay to support his opposition to the "two houses of Israel" theology, but Bernay's own statement also lumps Gene's theology as a "cult-like sub-movement of the Messianic movement"!
Woops!
This is dumb, guys.
When are we gonna stop calling each other heretics and cult members over differences in theology?
I'm starting to see why Boaz and J.K. have grace about these things.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteBut where do we go from there? I think UP is the appropriate answer ;)
Seriously, I think that taking scripture as a whole and applying God’s heart to everything is the answer. God’s heart is always the best for us and for love to be the most important thing. 1Cor 13:13
For instance you posed the question, “I mean, do we ignore the polygamy doctrine in fringe Messianic groups?”
Well even though we see evidence of God allowing polygamy in ancient Biblical culture, when we take scripture as a whole we see
Heb 13:17,”Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account.”
If we believe that the above scripture is referring to obeying the current law of the land, then you have to say that polygamy is not allowed today.
I also think that a better definition of “heretical” helps. I think that when a belief system is blatantly in opposition to God’s word, then I think it fits the definition of heresy. However just because something is not in the scriptures, does not mean its heresy.
For instance if I have a vision of a creature that is not mentioned in the scripture, but the end of that vision draws my heart closer to God. Then the vision is not heresy, it’s just not found in the scripture. I also don’t put the same weight on a vision that is not in scripture, but it can unfold more of what the spirit realm is like.
If we say that visions that are not found is scripture are heresy then we put God in a box and we say that we have figured all out. That in and of itself is rooted in pride and we do two things. One we make God into an idol because we have now defined God. And two since we know all, we now elevate ourselves to the position of God.
Now if I have a vision and in that vision the creature tells me that Yeshua is not the only way to God, well then that is heresy because it blatantly defies scripture. I think that the appropriate application from scripture would be Deut 13:1-5 because the prophet would lead the people away after other gods.
As for “Do I play any part here? Can we control what shapes Messianic Judaism?”
Yes and yes.
The saints talk about union with God. This is not that unlike the Hebraic thought of having the fullness of God or having the seven Spirits of God. I know this is backwards thinking from what many of us have been taught, but the greatest thing we can do to effect change in others is to get to know God better. When we walk with God like our fore-fathers did, we will change everything.
Leaning into Holy Spirit for answers is what we are called to do, He likes it that way.
Blessings,
Lou
Judah, Wow, wow, wow! Talk about getting all excited over nothing! Who told you I believe in the "Dual Covenant" theology? I reject it as nonsense! There's only One New Covenant - and it was given to Israel, but gentiles share in it's spiritual blessings (Romans 15:27). You're lumping the partaking of the blessings of the covenant, with Mosaic obligations given to Israel.
ReplyDeleteAnd Judah... I don't call you nor even have I called a heretic (nor do I even use that word).
You are not teaching messed up stuff about the person of Yeshua, so I have no reason to even think that way.
Nor, unlike Adam, I view Two House as a "cult-like" (perhaps some of the sub-groups may indeed fall into this, I don't know, but not the main movement).
Shalom and Grace!
Gene
Ah but Gene, read Rabbi Bernay's understanding of "dual covenant" theology at the end. (Most describe dual covenant theology as "Jews do not have to believe in Jesus", but Bernay's understanding reads different.)
ReplyDeleteHave a look:
"Dual Covenant/Noachide" groups teach that there are separate covenants between God and the Jews and God and the Gentiles, and that the Gentiles should follow either just "the ten commandments" (and not even all of them) or the so-called "Noachide laws" that Judaism has taught that non-Jews who fear God should keep. We do NOT teach this in any way, shape, or form, except that the basics of the Noachide laws are the basic requirements for non-Jews to begin fellowship, and can be found in Acts 15, which also teaches that non-Jews should learn the Torah ("The Law of Moses" or simply "Moses" in some translations) in the synagogues on Shabbat.
You have said, Gene, that gentiles should keep the moral law, the noachide laws, and should not keep Sabbath, fringes, or other commandments you deem only Jews ought to keep.
Bernay calls this theology a "bizarre, cult-like sub-movement that ha[s] branched off from the Messianic movement in the last decade or so."
Gene, you said,
And Judah... I don't call you nor even have I called a heretic (nor do I even use that word).
A few months ago, when I posted a picture of my family, you said that me and my family are "members of a false religion" that is "damaging the Messianic movement".
I have forgiven you for that, but that you didn't use the word "heretic" is hardly soothing.
Judah...
ReplyDelete"Bernay's understanding reads different."
Yes, he has his very OWN definition of Dual Covenant. Perhaps he should find another name for it. But I am sure it's no comfort to you that you're part of the "Two-House" cult to him - and I doubt that he considered mainstream MJ a cult:)
Also, so much for your forgiveness! (And, let's not get into what really happened there - too bad you deleted that post the moment you saw it - I wish you resurrect it if you want everyone to know what the issue was, but you probably won't.)
Oy... isn't blogging fun...
Gene
Lydia- On the subject of Two Houses;
ReplyDeleteTwo House people are often those who can't lay claim to Jewish ancestry, but want to lay claim to the Jewish blessings. This has the uncomfortable flavor of replacement theology, especially as most Two House people I've met have their own definition of the mosaic covenant that they want the Jews to conform to.
Here's the flaw I see with traditional Two House theology.
One claims to be a part of Israel, without any proof aside from the fact that one wants to be a part of Israel. However, if one wants to lay claim to being lost Israel, one has to take on ALL that this implies. You can't claim to be from the lost house of Israel, and yet know more about keeping Hashem's covenant than the people that weren't lost.
The lost cannot supersede the remnant. The prodigal son comes home, the other son is already there.
I personally am a Two Houser, but I recognize that I have no proof to my own identity, and as such, it's a bit irrelevant at this time. If Hashem wanted to disperse Israel among the gentile nations, and Hashem has a different role for these nations than for Israel, then at this point in history, until Hashem shows proof of identity, I think in general He expects us to fulfill the role he placed us in: that of righteous gentiles, not as Jews.
Yes, Bernay has his own understanding of dual covenant theology. He also has his own understanding of "Two House" theology, something very different than what I believe.
ReplyDeleteSo it doesn't matter, he disagrees with both of us. I only found it necessary to point this out when you cited him, that his own words you cited also labels your own theology as heretical.
Gene, I have forgiven you for what you said before about me and my family being members of a false religion. I bring it up because you said you never called anyone a heretic. I don't hold bitterness about what you said. I've completely forgiven you after a lot of initial anger, thank you Father for that.
Jonboze, Lou, Gary, thank you for your comments. I'm sorry I haven't replied to all of them. I think they stand on their own.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteSadly, you reduce the size, value and purpose of Torah to a numeral value. It’s so much more than that.
I don’t wish to argue with you, Gene, but I don’t interpret the scriptures that you quoted to me to mean the same, exact thing that you do. One verse isn’t going to prove that much to me. I guess that’s why I don’t bother to spew them out in ones and twos to try to prove my points when there’s a much larger context to consider.
James 1:1 proves nothing to me. And nothing I’ve learned about Two House looks anti-Semitic to me, nor does it look or feel like an attempt try to “look Jewish”.
Do the MJs encourage their Christian brothers to celebrate Christmas and Easter? I guess it would be convenient to take such a passive role on the issues of pagan-holidays with your take-em or leave-em attitude toward Christians (or gentiles, as you like to call them). I guess I just don’t see your point here, at all. Unless, you’re saying that all groups of all divisions have judged each other? Is that it? Well, ok, so what does that have to do with this difference in theology?
If Two House is a made-up theology, what would be the motivation? No one introduced me to this, talked me into it, or came knocking at my door selling me some wild ideas. How in the world did I get a hold of it?
I’m sorry, but you’re the one who’s coming across as prejudice with all of your classifications, bloodlines, separations, distinctions, and you’re insisting on calling people names that they are not. And are you saying that I am considered a gentile unless I formally convert to Judaism? I’d like to see that in context, please.
.
Look, you don’t have to see things MY way, but I wish you stop rudely, insisting that YOUR way is the final draft on all issues. There’s so much more going on here than meets the eye and I think most of us can agree on that. God is so much bigger than we all give Him credit for. We are being refined for better things to come.
In love…
Jonboze,
ReplyDeleteYour words are encouraging, thanks.
All of our theologies are flawed to some degree, but there are no flaws in God’s plan. I have total faith in what He’s doing. And when He assures me of who I am and who I am not…I stand strong in that faith.
It sure feels like the Jewish faith (MJs included, I guess) believes that it has not been perverted by man and that Catholic faith believes it has not been perverted by man, both believing they are pure…and both having a corner on the market…one on the old and one on the new…one with the Father and one with the Son. I hope going forward that we can bridge the gap. It seems like we, as Christians who have come to the center, have been willing to shrug off the traditions of man in an effort to reconcile ourselves to the Lord. I pray one day they will do the same.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteJonboze said,
"You can't claim to be from the lost house of Israel, and yet know more about keeping Hashem's covenant than the people that weren't lost.
The lost cannot supersede the remnant. The prodigal son comes home, the other son is already there."
I'm confused. No one is talking about superseding, are they?
And it's not like we're coming back empty handed. They have Torah and we have Yeshua! Let's through a party!!
Lydia... I am sorry, you speak in generalities and try to make theological judgments by looking at how things "feel" to you, instead of looking at scripture. I don't think you've ever used scripture to support your views - I suppose you don't think one can draw anything useful by presenting scripture verse, since they all mean different things to everyone in your mind, everything in shades of gray.
ReplyDelete"And are you saying that I am considered a gentile unless I formally convert to Judaism?"
Why does being a Gentile (not a Jewish person or Israelite) bother you so much, why so much self-hate? Do you consider the Christian believers as still Gentiles, but yourself as having crossed over to being a Jew/Israelite because you are in the Two House movement?
Lydia... your statement...
ReplyDelete"And it's not like we're coming back empty handed. They have Torah and we have Yeshua!"
...just about sums up your theology!
Let me understand - in your mind, the Two House people (the ten lost tribes, the "former" gentiles) are the one bringing Yeshua to the poor lost Jews?
One of the things that is very difficult for people to see regarding Biblical equality is that the first sector that Paul lists in Galatians 3:28 is that there is neither "Jew nor Greek" and not "Jew nor Gentile."
ReplyDeleteGreek in this case is a specific nationality. In Messiah, if people like me are to respect the Jewish people for the virtues of their ethnic heritage--and such virtues are manifold and unbelievably impressive--then I am likewise to be respected. I am to be respected not as some generic "Gentile," but indeed as a Scottish American.
If it were not for my own ethnic country, there would be no Arthur James Balfour, no Balfour Declaration, and no State of Israel--among the many contributions we've made to Western Civilization. And many other non-Jewish people of other ethnicities who make up the Messianic world have similiar such connections between their ethnic countries and the Jewish people.
JKM
P.S.: And I know many Jews who think our whisky is pretty good, too! :)
Lydia,
ReplyDeleteI saw that, but I didn't feel it was worth debating. I've never once said, or heard any other two house or one law person say, "Gee, you know, gentiles have superseded Israel." The idea is joining together the lost and the remnant, not one superseding the other.
I know Derek and probably Gene believe there is supercessionism/replacement theology there. Those of us with experience in this movement know there's no truth to that. (In fact, you'll find some of the most vehement stands against replacement theology on this side of the fence.)
JK,
Hahah, I knew you'd sneak a whiskey comment in there. :-)
J.K. McKee...
ReplyDelete'I am to be respected not as some generic "Gentile," but indeed as a Scottish American."
I very much concur - we all must respect and appreciate other each other, other nations, including for the contributions that G-d had made through them to the story of the world and salvation. I think it's a great idea to refer to people, whenever we are talking about ethnic designations, as Italians, Americans, Scots, instead of simply Gentiles - especially to individuals. But ultimately, all believers are brothers and sisters, regardless of ethnicity, traditions, or law requirements.
The people from the Scottish nation have indeed contributed much to the birth of the modern day Israel and to the return of Jewish refugees. For that I thank them.
Gene, in spite of the theological difference we have, I greatly appreciate that we can honor one another for our common humanity.
ReplyDeleteOh my, this is quickly devolving into a Coca Cola commercial. Maybe I should close the comments. ;-)
ReplyDelete“...just about sums up your theology!”
ReplyDelete“Let me understand - in your mind, the Two House people (the ten lost tribes, the "former" gentiles) are the one bringing Yeshua to the poor lost Jews?”
Gene, this hardly sums up my theology. And I find it insulting of you to imply that this is the case. I was simply pointing out that we did not fall away and return empty handed. We all have a lot to learn from each other, but of course, that’s not how you see it.
Just wondering, didn’t the apostles want the Jews to know Messiah? You say this as if wanting my Jewish brethren to know Messiah is such wacked-out idea.
You’ve quoted much scripture, but what good has it done for your position? Has anyone’s position changed? My point. I’m not saying it’s not appropriate to back up what you’re saying in reference to the Word, but I think all the relevant verses on this issue have been hashed over a number of times already. Now it is down to what I feel and believe and what you feel and believe to be the accurate rendering and meaning of those verses.
“Do you consider the Christian believers as still Gentiles, but yourself as having crossed over to being a Jew/Israelite because you are in the Two House movement?”
Christians (born again) I would not consider Gentiles, and I don’t consider myself a Jew. Furthermore, I didn’t go out and join up with some movement. I am who I am. I’m not sure what God has in store for me, yet, and no one has convinced me that what God is showing me is inaccurate. So here I am.
You don’t intimidate me in the least with your attack dog style. I’m sorry if you and the MJ movement have been wounded, somehow, but this has not been my intention or the intention of anyone I know.
Love to you all. I pray that God blesses us all and sees that our only desire is to serve Him, praise Him and bring Him glory...whether we call ourselves Jew, gentile, Christian, or Scottish American. ;)
One more thing Gene,
ReplyDeleteYou said,
"I am sorry, you speak in generalities..."
If that's not the pot and the kettle! ;)
Judah,
ReplyDeleteOnce again, an interesting post.
Most of the comments would probably come under the heading of, "the usual suspects". But that's ok.
It seems to me that as long as people are going to maintain the whole "Jew / Gentile" thing, unity among the believers will remain on the distant horizon.
Do so many still believe that Messiah came to make sure that the divisions remained? I personally don't get that idea from scripture.
It does not make sense even on a human level. And scripture does not support that position at all.
The two houses of Israel:
YHVH divided them in the first place and YHVH will reunite them. His time, His way.
The fact that there are so many who are now aware of what is taking place is simply an indication of the small amount of time that is left for this age.
Division is a natural outcome of our fallen nature. We suffer under our relationship with good and evil.
In Messiah we have unity of heart and mind. Outside of Messiah we have all the bickering and confusion that comes with the lack of fellowship in His Spirit.
Good topic, good discussion.
Shalom,
Efrayim
The problem is lack of knowledge and understanding of especially the second Temple period of Judaism, and all that came from that and caused that to be.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to be the perfect "believer" in HaRav Yeshua, you will be a follower of Nazarene Judaism. This means if you're Jewish you avert to the Oral Torah of Nazarene Judaism (which unfortunately only partly preserved in the teachings/halachot of Yeshua and the rulings of the ancient Nazarene Sanhedrin), and if you're gentile, you make the process of converting to Nazarene Judaism as laid out in Acts 15 by the Nazarene Sanhedrin headed by Ya'aqov HaTzadiq and Shimon-Kefa at that time.
Its really as simple as that.
In terms of the goyim - we need not be concerned who they are, whether they are Ephraim or not, because HaShem will bring in his people. The goyim who come to Yeshua, if they are sincere, are not to only remain betrothed to him for all time, but to make the process of entering into marriage with him, which is completed at the conversion to Nazarene Judaism.
Here is the prophetic process based on the verse from Hoshea "after two days he will revive us, and on the third day he will raise us up.":
-The people went on the third day to Har-Sinai.
-Marriage completes betrothal.
-Yeshua rose on the third day.
-The Torah cycle used by the Nazarenes seemed to have been the three year cycle.
-Yeshua is called the Netzer from the prophecy in Yeshayahu/Isaiah. A netzer is an offshoot branch.
-Scientifically, after 3 days a new shoot grafted into an olive tree is fully integrated, and the process is called scion.
-New goyim were instructed by the Nazarene Sanhedrin to hear the words of the Torah every Shabbat and not take all the mitzvot on at one time.
-After 3 years they would have heard the whole Torah, and should be responsible to have obeyed all the commandments.
-At that time (after 3 years) they would then become Israelites by converting to Nazarene Judaism and no longer being goyim.
Furthermore, prophetically, the Nazarene sect died off for about 2 thousand years and is now being revived in just the past decade or two.
This process is incredibly simple. Its prophesied about, and its backed up quite astoundingly in science.
Now, people on all sides of the aisle complicate things. People say "Torah is for goyim" and others say "Torah is not for goyim", when in fact both of them are right in different ways. The problem is, NEITHER SIDE understands it properly.
And on the issue of fragmentation in Messianic movements; its because of the failure to obey the Torah commandment to set up Torah-learned men, whom also the Dwelling of HaShem is upon, to rule as Shoftim (Judges) for the people on all matters involving Torah. Such men are basically non-existent throughout many of the sects of Messianism, because there is a huge lack of knowledge and an arrogant proclaiming of impartial truths by people who just came out of Christianity, and others from Judaism who buy into the modern Pharisaic Jewish monopoly on Judaism which used to never be until the Nazarenes, Essenes, and Saducees died out.
There's a big huge mess and lots of people are falling away in their ignorance. Everyone reading this: Be not one of them, study true Nazarene Judaism and become an authentic Nazarene.
Aaron,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your input. I think one area we disagree is on the need to formally convert to a Judaism.
Derek is formally converting to Messianic Judaism. You have said that you believe conversion to Nazarene Judaism is necessary. I know James Trimm adheres to that idea too.
I've followed the Nazarenes for awhile. I have some reservations about them, JK McKee sums them up here. Could you answer these reservations in a respectful way?
Shalom, bro.
Efrayim,
ReplyDeleteI was wondering when you'd pop your head in. :-)
Yes, usual suspects for the comments, but additionally we had an unexpected and welcomed guest in the form of Boaz Michael from FFOZ. After speaking with him again last night, I'm feeling more at peace with all this. I will be writing another blog post to relay some new thoughts on all this.
Lydia,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments and keeping things respectful. I know how hard that is at times. ;-)
You said,
I pray that God blesses us all and sees that our only desire is to serve Him, praise Him and bring Him glory...whether we call ourselves Jew, gentile, Christian, or Scottish American.
That's something I can get on board with.
I've always worried that our theological disagreements would be used against us, people looking for Messiah might turn away because of our infighting. If we step back for a minute and realize, "Hey, we're all here trying to serve God", I think we make progress and we don't run the same risk of alienating those looking for God or the people who are still young in the faith.
Lydia...
ReplyDeleteYou said: "I’m not sure what God has in store for me, yet, and no one has convinced me that what God is showing me is inaccurate."
When it comes to your sincerely held Two-House belief, there's a well-written paper by FFOZ's Tim Hegg that you may find educational (copy and paste the complete link below into your browser):
torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Two%20House%20Fatal%20Errors.pdf
Timm Hegg is very sympathetic to non-Jews following the Mosaic Law (which, until recently, was taught as required by FFOZ, but now optional yet beneficial), meaning it's not written from the mainstream MJ perspective (MJAA, UMJC, etc.), thus it's not "Jewishly" biased. FFOZ is well respected by many Two-House and One-Law people, including Judah (the author of this blog).
I hope you take time to read it and at least ponder on it.
Shalom!
Gene
Gene,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you'll bother to scroll down the length of this comment page, any longer, but thanks for the link. It's 11 pages and I'm out of ink, but I'll get to it tonight and get back to you after I’ve given it a good pondering.
While Two House happened to be at the heart of this conversation it, by no means, has any bearing on whether or not I believe that we are one, not two, in Messiah and that Torah is for all.
Thanks again, G!
L
Thanks Lydia...
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to Torah, our only disagreement is not whether or not it's "One Torah" or whether or not Jewish and Gentile believers are "One" - it is and we are. It's not even about Gentiles following the Mosaic Law if they so choose - I don't have a problem with anyone observing whatever they choose, as long as they do it "unto the L-rd". It's about claiming that the scriptures and Apostles somehow taught that Gentiles believers are under the same obligation as the Jewish believers to observe the Mosaic Law - I believe, from my reading of the New Testment / Brit Hadasha that Gentiles are under not such obligation - but they can observe the Law if they so choose - G-d will not think of them any more or less if they do not. One of the keys is realizing that G-d ALWAYS placed different requirements on different categories of people: young, old, sick, men, women, tribes of Cohens and Levites, land requirements as well as unique blessings for different tribes of Israel, aliens living in the land, converts to Judaism, slaves, virgins, mothers, fathers, widows, brothers of childless men, etc. It's a mistake to think that ANYONE is under same obligation - rather, we all have a unique calling.
Shalom,
Gene
Shalom
ReplyDeleteThis is a very eclectic stream of thought. I think it represents many views in our shared movement.
I just need to clarify Gene’s last post. I think that Tim would appreciate not being lumped into this discussion nor would he appreciate his association to Frist Fruits. Tim is the director of TorahResource he is not part of, nor has he ever been staff at First Fruits. We do have tremendous respect for Tim in many areas and draw from of his solid scholarship we are not officially connected.
Tim did serve First Fruits for several years on an outside (non-staff) editorial board. First Fruits has collection of UMJC, MJAA, Independent, MIA, and Church leaders that serve on this board. It is purposely diverse in its structure. It gives us perspective from their collective views and helps shape our materials as it goes through review. It does not mean that we always accept their views, but it helps sharpen us and is am means of accountability and balance. From this thread alone there are several men that serve in this capacity.
We work hard to cultivate a culture of respect. First Fruits of Zion often speaks at national two-house gatherings even though they fully understand we do not support or teach that view. We have written a paper on the two-house movement as well. It is called, “Encounters with and Ephraimite” You can get it here,
http://ffoz.org/downloads/white_papers/
It seems that several times in this thread there have been attempts to lump First Fruits with one side or the other. We are independent and have worked hard to create clear communications that articulate our positions. Linking us with others is not helpful. Perhaps everyone seeing that we are very unified as a staff, yet are respectful and accountable to the wider Messianic community will clarify why such associations are or can be made.
If you are familiar the dialog on Derek Lehman’s recent post between Derek and Nate Long you see major differences, yet both these men serve First Fruits as advisers, and I consider them friends—while I strongly disagree with them on several issues.
I think that this thread represents a desperate need for us all to consider the future of a movement that is fractured because of dogmatism. Consider James 3:18,
And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
"I think that this thread represents a desperate need for us all to consider the future of a movement that is fractured because of dogmatism."
ReplyDeleteYou're right, Boaz. I was thinking about this last night after talking with you.
I thought, "You know, there are a lot of zealous people in this movement." Perhaps it's because this movement is made up largely of 2 groups that are, by nature, zealous: Jews searching out Messiah, and Christians searching out the Jewish nature of faith in the God of Israel.
I think there's a correlation between zeal and fracturing.
Zeal is good. Zeal can also lead to division as both sides are convinced of the righteousness of their convictions. This promotes an inflexible, rigid faith. Generates a lot of "heretics"; people that aren't 100% on board with The Truth. It creates the fracturing you mentioned.
Zeal is good. But we also need a little theological wiggle room. A more pragmatic faith.
Anyways, that's my thinking-out-loud for now. I think I'll write about this more next week.
Aaron,
ReplyDelete"converting to Nazarene Judaism as laid out in Acts 15"
I went back and read Acts 15, but I didn't explicitly see a requirement to convert to Nazerene Judaism. So I assume you see it in there implicitly. Could you, or someone else, explain how you arrived at your conclusion?
In Christ,
Gary
"I think that Tim would appreciate not being lumped into this discussion nor would he appreciate his association to Frist Fruits."
ReplyDeleteI don't see why not - besides, I merely included a link to his paper and we are talking about him, in any case. The paper is from 2002 - and at one point Tim Hegg was a member of FFOZ theological review committee, and mane numerous contributions in the name of FFOZ, like authoring its DVD seminars, ect, and internet is full of references of him being an integral part of FFOZ. I think "lumping" is a wrong word to use with Tim - unless there's some bad blood now between him and FFOZ? In any case... do you disagree with anything in the Two-House paper Tim authored?
"I think that this thread represents a desperate need for us all to consider the future of a movement that is fractured because of dogmatism."
I am not considering accepting the Two House theology as "just one of the voices" of the mainstream Messianic Movement. I do not consider my rejection of it "dogmatism", anymore that I consider my rejection of British Israelism dogmatism. Those two movements are the same in my book.
Judah thinks that I am unwilling to "learn" - but I've learned about this teaching as much I one could learn (it's not very deep - really!). I consider that theology just another version of "Replacement Theology", and for anyone who dared to do just a little bit of research it's also plain (for me) to see that its firmly rooted in the (almost) defunct British/Anglo-Israelism and Amstrongism (I encourage all to do a little research into those two movements to see how amazingly similar they are with the Two House movement.)
Call me "dogmatic" - but I am quite flexible on many things of theology, but some things are little too close for comfort for me as a Jew.
Shalom,
Gene
Shalom,
ReplyDeleteGene. With all do respect. I think it is wrong and a violation of the laws of speech to bring others into conversations, use their names, etc. You brought FFOZ into this thread by mentioning us, I joined this conversation to make sure that your words did not define our position. You do not speak for FFOZ, I do not speak or represent Tim (although, in most cases I think he would trust me to.) That is why I said Tim would not appreciate being brought into this. Your question of "bad blood" is also plants seeds in minds and is a violation of proper speech.
To clear that up, there is not bad blood between Tim and FFOZ. Do I now have to list publicly the areas that we agree and disagree? That would be pointless and foolish. I can tell you that there are far more areas that I agree with him than disagree. I respect him greatly. Tim respects us in most areas. Tim's ministry grew his time naturally shifted to focus on his own work Torah Resource.
I cannot answer your question about his paper. I am sure I read it, but it would have been years ago. I agree with my paper.
As my paper states, I do not agree with the theology of 2house (but there is such a mixed perspective on this theology I find that I cannot make a blanket statement of opposition). I deeply appreciate the passion that that most of its adherents have. I know many that are living out what they believe to be truth and have a zeal for knowledge and understanding. They are far more prophetic minded than I am, this deeply effects their approach to everyday life. I would say, at the end of the day, while there are significant differences, there is a lot more that we agree on than disagree. I do not find them damaging to the movement as some do, I think that the animosity on both sides is a far greater concern.
I do agree that there are some variations of 2house that are replacement and Brit. Israel based. But the leadership would reject these positions and not see themselves a part of that approach.
Many that I have met in 2 house have deep love and healthy approach towards the land of Israel and the people of Israel. I appreciate that especially in a world that is hostile towards our land.
I think that it concerns Jewish leaders that some of these people are more Torah observant than they are. They must feel ashamed as Jews to see some gentiles more passionate, receptive, and willing to reorder their lives to the Torah than themselves. I think that this causes a lot of the hatred towards these people.
You say, "... but I am quite flexible on many things of theology." I think flexibility is a sign of security. I am glad you are secure in your views. I am much more dogmatic (primarily with myself) than what these posts may communicate.
Gene, I look forward to meeting you one day. May the Lord bless you. Boaz
Michael... unless one slanders someone (says something about them that's not true), I don't see how it's wrong to talk about any other PUBLIC (as all published authors are) person's view in a blog comment (much less quote them directly or simply post links to their publicly available materials (which is what I've done).
ReplyDeleteAlso, I must say that I strongly disagree with your statement that the Jewish leadership must be "ashamed as Jews" of supposed "more passionate, receptive, and willing" Law observance by some [Two House/One Law] Gentiles. Non-Jews following their own version of "Biblical Judaism", wearing Jewish religious garb, adopting Hebrew names, and calling themselves "Israelites" hardly evoke feeling of "shame" in any Jew that I know [although other feelings may come up!).
Anyway... thanks for the comment, Michael. G-d willing, we may meet some day.
Shalom,
Gene
Judah,
ReplyDeleteI think that Messianic Judaism is a fragment of Evenagelical Christianity. You don't want it to fragment, but I think it is one, and it will also fragment because no one who reads the NT knows what they should really believe.
Don't you think that there might be a reason that this happens. Maybe it's not just human nature or some evil force behind it, but the NT itself is the cause of the fragmenting.
Kenneth... the book you have on your site, the one about the so called "mistakes" in Messianic Judaism - I found that much of the material contains blatant lies and not worth anybody's time. I will now quote a few paragraphs from your "book" to show exactly what I mean:
ReplyDelete"Messianic Judaism also says that the laws can't be kept successfully and always leads to a curse, but DEUTERONOMY 30:11 says they can be kept successfully."
and again...
"According to Messianic Judaism, the laws are over, but Ezekiel said that in the future the laws will be kept and they will have a new heart and new spirit "
What nonesense you're promoting! It seems that you have not done your research and don't know what you are saying (I suspect you do - but you promote it anyway to see if you can find an uninformed person who would be swayed to your point of view!) The normative Messianic Judaism believes that the Torah is still valid and for today, can, should and must be followed by Jewish followers of Yeshua. In fact, Messianic Jews use the scriptures you list as "proofs"" against us to show to Gentiles and to Jews who are in churches (instead of MJ synagogues) that the Law of Moses has NOT been done away or is NOT too hard to follow. No only that, while elsewhere you admit that you are "not exactly Orthodox", many Messianic Jews "out-do" either Conservative or Reform Jews in both their respect for and observance of Torah. Not only that, many of us study Oral Law and see how we can apply it in our daily lives as Jews. Since you are not Orthodox yourself, you should be the last to point your finger at Messianic Jews if our interpretation or application of some Oral laws happens to be different in some cases.
I am sorry, but you are bearing false witness against Messianic Jews. I hope that someday you realize that you need to use some more honorable means to accomplish your goals or to even be taken seriously!
Shalom,
Gene
Gene,
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to say what Messianic Judaism believes because I have heard different people identifying themselves as Messianic Jews say different things about their beliefs. If I say "Messianic Judaism believes..." so and so, and it is not true about all of them, I feel bad about that but what can I say? Some of them I have heard say this, but some don't.
Also, you said I am bearing false witness against them, but I think they are bearing false witness against G-d by saying He is more than one being and other false beliefs about Him.
Kenneth Greifer
"I have heard different people identifying themselves as Messianic Jews say different things about their beliefs."
ReplyDeleteKenneth... so, you based whole your "research" and your whole anti-Messianic Judaism "book" on hearsay?! Can you produce some evidence of your research to support the blanket statements you've made and continue making?
But to prove my point that you have not done your homework, I will quote something your wrote in your own "book":
"I THINK Messianic Judaism says if the Jewish people sin at all, they break the covenant and are cursed... I also THINK Messianic Judaism says that the covenant can end from sinning." (GS: ephasis added)
Kenneth, you "think"? Do you actually "think" that you can use your own "thoughts" as evidence to prove a point and be taken seriously by anyone?
"I think they are bearing false witness against G-d by saying He is more than one being and other false beliefs about Him."
Here's what we Jews who believe in the true Maschiach believe: "Hear o Israel the L-rd our G-d is one."
In Brit Hadasha writings (the book of letters written by Jewish followers of Yeshua, and what Gentiles call "New Testament") G-d reveals that Yeshua Ha-Maschiach is actually the Word of G-d that was made flesh and dwelled among men (of Israel, because it's to them that he was sent - Matthew / Matityahu 15:24). It also teaches that through G-d's Word, all things were created. I will quote Yochanan 1:1-5 for you:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d. He was with G-d in the beginning. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not suppressed it."
Kenneth... I hope that Ha-Shem shines His light upon you and helps you know who the true Maschiach is. When He does, there will be other Jews, followers of Yeshua, to help you.
I do believe that you're seriously trying to serve G-d, and it's an honorable thing. But my making false statements based on hearsay or at most on beliefs of few individuals, even about those who you consider your enemies (i.e., Jews who happen to believe in a certain person that YOU don't consider to be the Messiah) you discredit your own cause.
Shalom,
Eugene
Gene,
ReplyDeleteJudah's essay discussed how Messianic Judaism is dividing into many different groups with all kinds of different beliefs. I have heard many different beliefs by Messianic Jews and Christians (who have many of the same beliefs), so it is hard to say in general any group's beliefs.
I have heard people who call themselves Christians who believe that the man you believe in was G-d and the Messiah, and others who call themselve Christian who say he was the Messiah only, and not G-d. Would it be right to say that Christians believe that that man was G-d or not? It would be a generalization because some don't.
I discuss Messianic Judaism's beliefs based on what I have to assume is the majority opinion. I know that there are many divisions and many different beliefs.
If you substitute Christianity every place I write Messianic Judaism, would that be right? Maybe my arguments fit them better?
Or would that be generalizing too?
Kenneth Greifer
Gene,
ReplyDeleteI don't hate Messianic Jews. I also believe they sincerely believe based on quotes in the Tanakh that a certain man was G-d and the Messiah. I don't think they have any evil intent in spreading that belief because they are trying to do what they think is good and right. I disagree with them, and I am not trying to spread hate against them or false accusations against them. I have heard many different opinions of their beliefs, so it is hard to know what is accurate. Your beliefs might be the minority opinion in Messianic Judaism.
Kenneth Greifer
"If you substitute Christianity every place I write Messianic Judaism, would that be right? Maybe my arguments fit them better?
ReplyDeleteOr would that be generalizing too?"
Kenneth , I would agree, to a point - if you substituted MJ with Christianity, some of the points you've made (e.g., the Anti-Torah views) would be valid for Christianity (as a WHOLE). At the same time, there are some denominations of Christianity that are not so antinomial. This means that one should be very careful about generalizing about anything out there.
I do not disagree that there are different voices in Messianic Judaism. In some ways Messianic Judaism is not unlike mainstream Judaism (much much more Torah based as a whole), which ranges from Humanistic Judaism that denies existence of G-d (www.shj.org), to Reform that is very lax on observances of G-d's Laws, to the Conservative Judaism which recently allowed homosexual rabbis, to the Ultra-Orthodox who probably wouldn't allow their daughters to marry you because you Kenneth are not enough of a Jew to them (not being even Orthodox).
So, to give you some advice, I would recommend that you re-write your materials to be much more specific about streams you're addressing, and whether you're talking about Christianity or Messianic Judaism. Do you research on UMJC (www.umjc.net), for example and see what positions they hold regarding Torah, etc.
Shalom,
Gene
Judah, you said:
ReplyDelete"Aaron,
Thanks for your input. I think one area we disagree is on the need to formally convert to a Judaism.
Derek is formally converting to Messianic Judaism. You have said that you believe conversion to Nazarene Judaism is necessary. I know James Trimm adheres to that idea too.
I've followed the Nazarenes for awhile. I have some reservations about them, JK McKee sums them up here. Could you answer these reservations in a respectful way?
Shalom, bro."
If there is no formality whatsoever, you will reap in division. Its like trying to hold water in your hands instead of putting it into a glass.
At this point in time, I don't believe there necessarily needs to be any formal conversion. Most importantly the process has to be done in a straightforward manner, and not wishy-washy. Its a BIG thing to transform from an gentile into an Israelite, its nothing to be taken lightly or have its lines blurred.
The link you sent mentions nothing much at all about the beliefs of Nazarene Judaism, especially not the incredible parallels between Pharisaic and Essene Judaisms of the day.
Mainly what I'm sick of seeing is freelance, renegade, lone-ranger "Pabbi/Rastor" setting up his own interpretation of the Bible apart from all others, and raising up his brand of 'Messiah-based-faith', if you will.
An ancient Nazarene historian called Hegis'fa ("Hegisspus") said the pagan gentile Christians came "with bare and uplifted head, proclaiming departure from the Truth" (i.e. Torah; Ps.119:142).
Lo and behold, the year Rav Shaul died, a man named Ignatius, called "Bishop of Antioch" came proclaiming a new religion and a departure from Judaism (quite plainly in his epistles).
Jude 1:3 tells us there was only ONE Faith once and for all delivered to the kadoshim (set-apart ones).
Indeed, that Faith is Judaism. Christians proclaim departure from it. Many Messianics do much the same, with bare and uplifted heads proclaiming a departure from Judaism.
Has much of Messianism really come that far?
Aaron,
ReplyDeleteThanks, that clarifies it.
Mainly what I'm sick of seeing is freelance, renegade, lone-ranger "Pabbi/Rastor" setting up his own interpretation of the Bible apart from all others, and raising up his brand of 'Messiah-based-faith', if you will.
Yeah, I think you're not alone there.
I think we all tend to forget that this "body" of Messiah is hidden in plain sight. We can not forget the first century followers, such as the original apostles and talmidim are part of that body. But those who were, but are now asleep, waiting, and us, make up the kingdom. Each leader tries to walk in the way Messiah brought to us, the more perfect way. But I think the spleen of this body may have actually been in the 5th Century, and His mouth speaks then, and now, and in every country. It's not what we expect. The fragmenting is revivings. They are new shoots over and over and over again because people get born from above. And we all like sheep go astray. And come back, hopefully. Peter did. Paul did. John said if any man denies he still sins, he lies. It only makes sense that God would be reincorporating Jews, and His lost ones back in end time. But that does not mean only those of us who are aware of our Hebrew beginnings and that whole thought process are the only righteous ones. I knew I was a Messianic in 1986. But was not computer literate until well into the 21st Century. And so, never met anyone else who knew they were Messianic until in 1999. That first meeting caused me to have to deal with such basics! Stuff no Protestant even considers, let alone spends the 2 years it took me to discover my own stands on. I didn't even know the East Coast US is loaded with Messianic congregation to ask them anything. What makes members of Messiah's beloved on this earth is individuals. All through time. Before Y'shua, during his time, and ever since. With more to come. Looking at the state of Catholicism was depressing if one wanted to see "the Church." It is likewise when we look at Protestantism. And the same for Messianism. Leaders are to help newbies and weaker ones walk straight towards God. But no one replaces Y'shua, God's own unadulterated Word.
ReplyDeleteHi friend;
ReplyDeleteThe problem as i see it is calling Messianic Christianity, - Messianic Judaism. This is a definite shift since the 1970's.
What's in a name? _Everything.
MC augmented Christianity and the Church; basically it was a support group/halfway house for newly Completed Jews and an education resource for non Hebrew Christians. It supported the Church and did not divide it. We would meet on Friday evenings but all worshiped at their home churches on Sundays.
Today, MJ is becoming a splinter group from God's Church. It meets separately from other Christians. Messianic Judaism today seems convinced that the Body of Christ on earth is just a big bunch of mistakes and errors. That it's been so since the first Apostles and followers. It's arrogant to think that Jesus would allow His church to be in error for 2,000yrs. I don't mean it was without fault, but basically the Church is what it's bridegroom wants it to be. To believe that it's taken 2,000yrs and the arrival of Messianic Christians to get the church straightened out, also reveals a lack of Faith in God being in control.
Of great concern to me is the legalism which has overtaken M.J. If a Christian brother or sister wishes to worship on Saturday, - the Sabbath, he/she is FREE to do so. But the Christians who celebrate the Lord's Day -Sunday, are also not in error. Sunday was not added later by Constantine (as some claim), but was observed by the first generation Christians. There are many legitimate reasons to do celebrate on the Lord's day. As Apostle Paul said we are free in Christ Jesus, - let no man judge you according to days or Sabbaths.
Which brings me to my last but perhaps my greatest concern with what has happened to the Messianic movement in the last 35 yrs - the topic of St Paul.
You can hardly do a Google search without finding pages by messianic groups who are calling Paul an apostate, not a real follower of Christ, etc etc.
Why??
I believe it is because Paul defined the Church and what it means to be free in Christ. he laid out how the OT Law is completed in Jesus, and many other tenets of the Church.
The "Judaizers" in the messianic movement need to get rid of Paul and his teachings so as to pull the flock further into legalism. I could go on and on with this subject - such as why Gentile Christians can never never be a Messianic Jew (as I read many claiming to be, or wanting to be). Messianic Christianity for former non believing Jews who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah - is awesome. It is sincere, completes who they are, reflects their traditions and heritage. But for Gentile Christians it's sythetic to be referring to Jesus as Yeshua Hamashia or God as YHWA - because these people are not Jewish. If there's one thing Jesus hated it was phoniness. I was active in Jewish evangelism in the '70's but some of the changes I'm seeing are scary - headed to legalism. Many of the Messianic fellowship "traditions" such as the pierced matzoh hidden in white linen were not even in pexistance in Jesus' day but added centuries later by medieval eastern European Jews. I don't mean to offend, I say this with love. But the Legalism, the splitting with the body of Christ (where by the way the is neither Jew nor Gentile, Slave nor Free etc), the growing hostility to Paul's credentials, are all issues not to be taken lightly
Blessings