The 10th day of the 7th month is Yom-Kippur (“Atonement Day”); you are to have a holy gathering, you are to deny yourselves, and you are to bring a fire offering to the Lord.
Don’t do any work on that day, it is Yom-Kippur, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God.
Anyone who does not deny himself on that day is to be cut off from his people; and anyone who does any kind of work on that day, I will destroy from among his people.
You are not to do any kind of work; it is a permanent law through all your generations, no matter where you live.
It will be for you a Shabbat of complete rest, and you are to deny yourselves; you are to rest on your Shabbat from evening the ninth day of the month until the following evening."
-The Lord, speaking to Moses
Yom Kippur starts on October 10th 2008, that’s this Friday at sundown.
How do we figure the date? According to Scripture, the new moon as seen in Israel signals the start of a new month, thus the Biblical 7th month conveniently starts on October 1st this year. Since Yom Kippur is the 10th day of the 7th month, that makes Yom Kippur fall on October 10th this year.
What is it?
Yom Kippur (“yohm kee-pur”) is Hebrew for “day [of] atonement”. The Hebrew word could also be translated "cleansing" or "washing away". It also goes by the name of Yom HaKippurim, “Day [of] the atonements”. It's called the High Sabbath, or a Sabbath of Sabbaths; it’s a solemn day of turning and repenting for the sin you’ve done through the year. It is considered the holiest day in Judaism.
Unlike the other Feasts of God, Yom Kippur is less of a feast and more of an appointed time of solemn observance, when God makes atonement for the sin of his people.
Modern religious Jews observe Yom Kippur it in a variety of ways, usually including:
- Fasting
- Intensive prayer
- Spending most of all of the day in the synagogue
- Repenting to God for sins committed against God
- Repenting for sins committed, knowingly or unknowingly, against others
- Public confessions of guilt and petitions for forgiveness
- Greeting one another with, “May you be sealed in the Book of Life”
- Wearing white clothing to symbolize purity
- Abstaining from eating, drinking, and sex
Some of these are extra-biblical; they are Jewish traditions passed down through generations. Jewish tradition holds that God’s Book of Life is closed and sealed for the year on Yom Kippur, thus some call this the Day of Judgment.
Check out Derek Leman’s first-hand experience in an Orthodox synagogue on Yom Kippur.
While the beautiful Jewish style of observance may be beneficial, the Scriptures have very explicit commandments straight from God about how to observe this:
- Have a holy gathering
- Deny yourself
- Give a fire offering to the Lord
- Don’t work
- Detailed commandments for the High Priest regarding atonement
We’ll discuss these. But first…
Why should I care?
Does Yom Kippur matter to Christians? Why would you, a gentile Church-goer have anything to do with Yom Kippur?
“Foolish Judah, don’t you know Jesus atoned for our sins? He fulfilled Jewish things like Yom Kippur, so we don’t need to observe it anymore.”
The above statement is one I’ve heard from many Christians, and the problem with it is 4-fold:
- It assumes “fulfill” means “abolish” or “end”.
- It assumes Messiah completely fulfilled it.
- It suggests Jesus’ actions lead us to lives contrary to God’s commandments.
- It puts forth the belief that our interpretation of Jesus’ acts are more important that God’s direct commands.
If you stay tuned, I’ll show you how these are false assumptions and faulty thinking.
Fulfill Yom Kippur = abolish Yom Kippur?
Consider this: Paul says that Messiah fulfilled the Passover, yet commanded Corinthians to keep the Passover. Messiah fulfilled Pentecost, yet the apostles, including Paul, continued to celebrate it.
More compelling yet, Messiah said this:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
-Messiah, in his “fundamentals of faith” Sermon on the Mount
Did you catch that? Messiah contrasted abolition and fulfillment. He then says the Law (including the Feasts) will not disappear until “everything is accomplished, until heaven and earth pass away.”
Messiah makes it succinct and clear: fulfillment is not abolition!
Fulfill ≠ abolish
Fulfill = make full, complete
We come to the conclusion that should Messiah completely fulfill Yom Kippur, we still should observe it out of obedience; Messiah's fulfillment doesn't cancel God's commandment. But did Messiah fulfill it?
Did Messiah fulfill Yom Kippur?
Messiah’s own sacrifice-death took away the sin of the world. Does that mean we don’t need atonement anymore? Does it mean we don’t need forgiveness anymore? Is sacrifice all there is to Yom Kippur? No, Atonement is about more than sacrifice.
Atonement is being reconciled with God. Atonement is setting us right with God. Atonement is vindication of the righteous. Atonement is putting evil in its place. Atonement is judgment. If atonement is all these things, did Messiah fulfill all these things?
No, not yet. I don't see vindication of the righteous, for example. This world is all about putting down righteous people. I don't see judgment of the wicked, either. This world is in a never-ending wickedness contest, with prizes handed out to those who do the worst things best!
I believe Messiah isn't finished yet. He hasn't finished his fulfillment of Yom Kippur.
Look at the 7 Feasts of God and their fulfillment in Messiah. In chronological order,
| Feast Name | Date | Messianic fulfillment |
| Pesach (Passover) | 1st month, 14th day | Messiah, whom John called the spotless “lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” was sacrificed on Passover. |
| Unleavened Bread | 1st month, 15-21st days | Messiah, the unleavened bread, was buried in the ground during Unleavened Bread. |
| First Fruits | 1st month, day after Sabbath following Passover | Messiah was raised from the dead, or as Paul puts it, "Now Messiah is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of those who sleep." He rises on the Feast of First Fruits. |
| Shavu’ot (Pentecost) | 50 days after First Fruits, usually in the 3rd month | Acts 2 describes the apostles gathered for the Feast of Pentecost and Messiah, as promised, sends his spirit down on them and they begin speaking many languages, proclaiming God to peoples in their native tongue. |
| Yom Teruah (Trumpets) | 7th month. 1st day | ??? |
| Yom Kippur (Atonement) | 7th month 10th day | ??? |
| Sukkot (Tabernacles) | 7th month 15th day | ??? |
Note that Feasts 1-4 Messiah fulfilled in real-time – that is, he fulfilled them on the actual day, in chronological order. We believe this was not a coincidence.
Now notice the last 3 feasts: Messiah didn’t do anything special to fulfill these on the day. There is evidence from the Scripture that suggests Messiah will fulfill these by:
- Sounding the Great Shofar blast on Yom Teruah, signaling the beginning of the end.
- Judging all the nations on Yom Kippur, possibly returning on Yom Kippur.
- Dwelling with us for 1000 years on Tabernacles.
This would fit well; there are prophecies in the Scripture about Messiah which have not been fulfilled. (In fact, anti-Christian missionary organizations such as Jews for Judaism often cite these “missing fulfillments” as evidence that Jesus was not the Messiah.)
We suggest that they are evidence of 2 comings of the Messiah: one as the priestly lamb, another as the political kingly warrior. Very different roles!
Messiah has not fulfilled the Reigning King role of Messiah. For example, the coming judgment of the world, the political King who reigns from Jerusalem, brings lasting peace, brings the whole world together to celebrate the Feasts in Jerusalem, making Torah go forth from Zion so that everyone knows the Lord -- these things haven't happened yet. I suggest Messiah didn’t completely fulfill Yom Kippur. Not yet.
But what about Jesus’ sacrifice?
The theology that Jesus ended/abolished Yom Kippur by his death is Scripturally unsound. It's true, Messiah's atonement is permanent, and his sacrifice is perfect and once-and-for-all-time!
I further propose that His perfect sacrifice is harmonious with God's Feasts, not contrary to them, nor abolishing them in any way.
Consider the Scripture regarding Yom Kippur:
It is a permanent law through all your generations, no matter where you live.
That’s a tough one to squirm out of, dear Christian!
We must state plainly that God’s Feasts should be kept, no matter how long ago God told this to Moses, no matter how far away we live from Israel. God told us this in plain language when he gave us the Torah. (See for yourself in Leviticus 23!)
Even the most adamant gentile would have to concede that for Israel, Yom Kippur is a permanent law. It’s not going to end, ever! Why would it, after all, it is not one of man’s feasts – it’s not a Jewish feast – it’s one of God’s! And God’s things are eternal.
Speak to Israel and say to them: 'These are My appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the Lord, which you’re to call holy.’
-God speaking to Moses
If the Feasts belong to God, and God told his people to call them holy, forever, what reason do Christians have for dismissing it? Who told you God’s eternal Feasts have been made into temporary Jewish holidays? Who lied to you and said God’s Feasts aren’t for you?
Was it Messiah? No, the gospels records that Messiah kept the Feasts.
When the time came, Yeshua and his apostles reclined at the table. And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to celebrate this Passover with you before My suffering. I tell you, I will not celebrate it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."
-Yeshua the Messiah, speaking to his disciples
Was it the apostles? No, the apostles kept God’s Feasts, even after Messiah’s death.
The festival of Shavu'ot (Pentecost) arrived, and the believers all gathered together in one place. Suddenly there came a sound from the sky like the roar of a violent wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then they saw what looked like tongues of fire, which separated and came to rest on each one of them. They were all filled with the Ruach HaKodesh and began to talk in different languages, as the Spirit enabled them to speak.
-Acts of the followers of Yeshua the Messiah
Was it Paul? No, Paul kept God’s Feasts himself.
For Sha'ul (Paul) had decided to bypass Ephesus on his voyage, in order to avoid losing time in the province of Asia, because he was hurrying to get to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), if possible in time to celebrate Shavu'ot (Pentecost).
-Acts of the followers of Yeshua the Messiah
Paul even told gentile believers to keep the Feasts.
Get rid of the old hametz (leaven), so that you can be a new batch of dough, because in reality you are unleavened. For our Passover lamb, the Messiah, has been sacrificed. So let us celebrate the Passover Seder not with leftover hametz, the hametz of wickedness and evil, but with the matzah of purity and truth.
-Paul, in his letter to Corinth
God’s Feasts – not Jews' Feasts – are for you, gentile follower of Messiah.
How blessed is the man who keeps God's commandments and appointed times.
A shadow of things to come
Messiah’s sacrifice-death atoned for the sins of not only Israel, but the whole world. As the book of Hebrews puts it, Messiah has become the great high priest, the Cohen HaGadol, in heaven, interceding before God on our behalf.
For every cohen gadol (high priest) taken from among the Levites is appointed to act on people's behalf with regard to things concerning God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can deal gently with the ignorant and with those who go astray, since he too is subject to weakness. Also, because of this weakness, he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as those of the people. And no one takes this honor upon himself, rather, he is called by God, just as Aharon was.
So neither did the Messiah glorify himself to become cohen gadol; rather, it was the One who said to him,
"You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
Also, as he says in another place,
"You are a cohen forever, to be compared with Malki-Tzedek."
During Yeshua's life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions, crying aloud and shedding tears, to the One who had the power to deliver him from death; and he was heard because of his godliness. Even though he was the Son, he learned obedience through his sufferings. And after he had been brought to the goal, he became the source of eternal deliverance to all who obey him, since he had been proclaimed by God as a cohen gadol.
We have this hope as a sure and safe anchor for ourselves, a hope that goes right on through to what is inside the parokhet, where a forerunner has entered on our behalf, namely, Yeshua, who has become a cohen gadol forever, to be compared with Malki-Tzedek.
-The author of Hebrews, speaking to Messiah’s Jewish followers
As believers in Messiah, Yom Kippur is unique for us in the symmetry of old and new: the day of Atonement in the Mosaic covenant, and the final judgment and atonement Messiah will make when he returns.
But we've only scratched the surface! We haven't explored the detailed commandments to the Cohen Gadol in carrying out the atoning sacrifices, and how they're a picture of things coming in the future. We haven't talked about the miracles that occurred every year in the Temple during this time. We haven't talked about the 2 goat sin offerings, one of the Lord, another for Azazel. We haven't talked about how the priest would sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat of the holy Ark of the Covenant inside the Temple's deepest sanctuary, the Holy of Holies, where God's awesome presense, His Sh'khinah glory, resided. We've barely scratched the surface.
The Feasts are so deep, especially this holiest of holy days, Yom Kippur. I can only encourage you to start digging and be blessed in keeping God's Feasts. Let’s keep this God-commanded, God-instituted feast. It’s one of God’s appointed times, so let us not miss our appointment with Him.
You’ve convinced me. What do I do?
Perhaps the best recommendation is, “Read God’s word. It’s the manual for keeping God’s Feasts.” Here’s a brief summary of the explicit commandments God gave to the people, to carry out in “all our generations, everywhere you live”:
- Have a holy gathering
- Deny yourself
- Give a fire offering to the Lord
- Don’t work
A holy gathering: get together with some folks who understand this Feast. Gather with them. Maybe it’s a church (unlikely) or maybe a Messianic synagogue, or a home group, or just friends. Have a Yom Kippur gathering with other believers in Messiah.
Deny yourself: in a rare moment of near-universal agreement, almost everyone understands this to mean “fast”, that is, don’t eat food during Yom Kippur. Acts 20 in the New Testament suggests Paul was fasting on this day. However you carry this out, honor God by denying your fleshly needs for one day and focus only on the Lord.
Give a fire offering: Ok, so without a tabernacle or Temple, we can’t really carry this out. But perhaps an acceptable offering is the offering of worship and praise. King David famously wrote in one of his psalms,
Rescue me from the guilt of shedding blood, God, God of my salvation!
Then my tongue will sing about your righteousness, Master, open my lips; then my mouth will praise you.
For you don't want sacrifices, or I would give them; you don't take pleasure in burnt offerings.
My sacrifice to God is a broken spirit; God, you won't spurn a broken, chastened heart.
Don’t work: Honor God by resting completely, no work at all. Take time out of your hectic life and focus on Him and His atonement.
Shalom, may you honor God’s Feasts, even among the gentiles, and may your name be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life this Yom Kippur.
The new Jerusalem has no need for the sun or the moon to shine on it, because God's Sh'khinah gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. Its gates will never close, they stay open all day because night will not exist there, and the honor and splendor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure may enter it, nor anyone who does shameful things or lies; the only ones who may enter are those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
-Messiah’s Revelation to John
Nice exegting - but wouldn't it make more sense to celebrate these celebrations with a group of people that have been doing this for 1000's of years?
ReplyDeleteI am talking about Judaism - who actually have kept these traditions going - and the calendar - so you could learn about them. Judaism still celebrates these things and have for over 2500 years...wow!
If you ask me, aren't Christians kind of getting around to this fulfillment a little late?
Hi,
ReplyDeleteWould it make more sense to celebrate it with the Jewish people, you ask?
The beautiful Jewish observance is admirable, but if they miss Messiah, they are missing the biggest part of the Feasts.
One Jewish intellectual put it this way,
Brothers, my heart's deepest desire and my prayer to G-d for Isra'el is for their salvation; I can testify to their zeal for G-d.
But it is not based on correct understanding; since they are unaware of G-d's way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to G-d's way of making people righteous.
For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.
"The beautiful Jewish observance is admirable, but if they miss Messiah, they are missing the biggest part of the Feasts." (Judah)
ReplyDeleteBut they are the one's who have done these feasts for 2500 years - how can one be sure - even with a belief in the Messiah - that a group of people that have not been celebrating these feasts even know the first thing about what they are doing?
My guess is they don't. Christians have never celebrated these feasts and do not truly know the first thing about doing them - so let's go to experts on the subject - Judaism...practicing these feasts, and on only one's keeping them alive, for the past 2500 years.
I also find it very odd that Christians, who claim to be the fulfillment of Judaism, have never practiced these feasts - or at the least - did not continue the practice...why? How is this really a fulfillment of anything remotely Jewish from Torah...if anything Christianity abandoned these things and let Judaism keep the observance. Judaism is really the one's to be congratulated for that.
So why shouldn't we celebrate with the experts? We can try celebrate these things - fact is - we know nothing about them and Jewish people know everything about them.
How can one be sure - even with a belief in the Messiah - that a group of people that have not been celebrating these feasts even know the first thing about what they are doing?
ReplyDeleteBecause we have a detailed how-to guide on how to keep them: God's Torah.
We can look to Judaism's teachers for more suggestions on how to keep the Feasts, but that's the most they can be, suggestions.
If we say that only Judaism's rabbis have the insider knowledge of the things of God, and no one else can possibly attain that knowledge, then we are exalting men over Scripture.
That Jewish intellectual I mentioned, he addressed this too! He said:
If you're brought up Jewish like me, don't assume that you can lean back in the arms of your religion and take it easy, feeling smug because you're an insider to God's revelation, a connoisseur of the best things of God, informed on the latest doctrines! I have a special word of caution for you who are sure that you have it all together yourselves and, because you know God's revealed Word inside and out, feel qualified to guide others through their blind alleys and dark nights and confused emotions to God. While you are guiding others, who is going to guide you? I'm quite serious. While preaching "Don't steal!" are you going to rob people blind? Who would suspect you? The same with adultery. The same with idolatry. You can get by with almost anything if you front it with eloquent talk about God and his Torah.
Society, you said,
Judaism...practicing these feasts, and on only one's keeping them alive, for the past 2500 years.
Yes, praise God for that! Praise God that he's kept for himself a Jewish remnant that still observes His appointed times.
Likewise, it has been Christianity alone that has embraced Messiah for the last 2000 years.
We need both Messiah and Torah.
I also find it very odd that Christians, who claim to be the fulfillment of Judaism...
The answer is, Christianity is not the fulfillment of Judaism.
While Messiah, his apostles, and the 1st century believers in Messiah all kept the Feasts and the Torah, by the 3rd century the Roman adaptation of the faith was firmly in place, creating a new religion distinct from Judaism. See Church Behold Your Founder and also the Lies of Christianity presentation.
Anonymous, I deleted your comment because you said falsehoods about me. (I'm not into the Sacred Name movement, I don't hate Jews, and I don't abase Jewish authority.) You seemed to project everything you hate about the Two House Israel movement on me.
ReplyDeleteThat ain't gonna stick. :)
Please hang around. I think you'll find my character quite different than the one you caricatured and demonized.
Hi Judah,
ReplyDeleteThis post was full of information and also beautiful. I am struck though, that the celebration of this holy day is much like my daily relationship with God through Jesus. The mind of Christ in me continually judges my thoughts and actions. Also, according to the NT our fasting is to be private and fasting and praying can be done on any day. So, this is my question. If a Christian does daily what this special day requires would they also be breaking the Law if they did not openly celebrate this day in the way prescribed? Isn't the purpose of these days to show us who we are to be in Christ? I think it is fine to participate in this religious holiday but I would think that living out our changed state in Christ by a life that reflects the principles taught in God's Law to be more desirable and actually, what is required of those who walk by faith, according to the Spirit, and not by sight.
Thanks, Judah, as always, for sharing your perspective with us.
Pam
Thank you, Judah, for always explaining so clearly and covincingly. I will be sharing this blog!
ReplyDeleteThe explanation about Yom Kippur not being fulfilled was fabulous. My church is one of those that teach some confusing things and I find that the more I study the Bible for myself and listen/read others who do the same, I understand more clearly.
Keep it coming. Even if I don't comment I am always reading!
Dorla
Go ahead and sensor me (it's happened before), but by promoting a different calendar and day for Yom Kippur--or any of the moedim--you will not provoke Jews to jealousy for faith in Yeshua. And, Paul says in Romans 3:1 that the Jewish people have the "oracles of God," meaning oral understandings of how the Torah is to be followed.
ReplyDelete(No, this is not a widescale endorsement of Mishnah and Talmud--but neither should they be excluded from our interpretations.)
Thank you Judah for taking the time to teach. As someone who has fellowship with many of the different Messianic movements, I have found the feast day dates to be one of the hardest issues to deal with. While I understand the desire to stand in solidarity with our Jewish brothers, I cannot in good conscience follow the orthodox calendar. The Torah speaks very clearly about seeing the moon and the barley and how can I go against that? Just because someone has been doing something for longer does not make it correct.
ReplyDeleteI believe that if we walk our walk with an earnest heartfelt love for God, then we will arouse jealousy in our Jewish brothers. I see that in you and pray that you do not lose it. Shalom, Jeff.
Thank you Judah for an excellent reasoning of why Yom Kippur is relevant to Christians. I know that I will approach this day differently next year.
ReplyDeleteI do differ a bit with your idea that Messiah will return in a political reign. I wonder if you have ever read Jesus For President. That book makes a VERY clear case for the idea that an a-political kingdom is what Jesus was preaching.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteSince Sukkot is almost here, I was wondering if you have seen the movie "Ushpizin"? It's a great movie about Sukkot in Jerusalem with an orthodox husband and wife. We have watched this film probably twenty times. It just gets better each time. Well worth watching.
You can buy it at Amazon. There are some rental places that might have it, but it is rare to find it on the shelf.
It's all in Hebrew with English subtitles.
I would be very interested in your opinion of the film.
Thanks for the Yom Teruah post. Very well done.
Shalom,
Efrayim
I have just discovered your site. A great learning resource, thank you for the time you've put in.
ReplyDeleteChristians steeped in orthodoxy are quick to use the word "legalism" when Jewish believers extol the virtues of the high holy days. They do so to the point of becoming neurotic about legalism. Point missed. G-d gave us these feasts as commemorations and celebrations, and did so for reasons, the mysteries of which are a joy to discover!
Can I throw this one "out there", to see where your expertise places this idea; Sukkot- the origins and meaning behind this feast was "G-d dwelling with His people". To cut a long story short, is it possible that Sukkot was what "Christmas" should be? If you examine John the Baptists' parenthood you can put the real time of Yeshua's birth as Sept/Oct, which places it on Sukkot. Is it possible that Yeshua was not born in an animal stall, but a Sukkot "booth"?
Would love your feedback, apologies if you've dealt with this elsewhere, just fire me the link. Cheers from Down Under
Efrayim,
ReplyDeleteWe watched Ushpizin last night! we enjoyed it very much. My husband who supports and enjoys the feasts with me, as oppose to studying and understanding them on his own, was very pleased with the movie.(He would rather watch TV than read...) It was a learning experience for him, and I was grateful!
Dorla
Hi Pam,
ReplyDeleteAccording to the New Testament, our fasting is to be private.
Do you believe Messiah was saying, "Don't fast on Yom Kippur as my Father told you?"
If a Christian does daily what this special day requires would they also be breaking the Law if they did not openly celebrate this day in the way prescribed?
A Christian doesn't do these things daily. We don't fast, we don't gather in a holy assembly, we don't make an offering, we don't meditate on His atonement throughout the day.
Isn't the purpose of these days to show us who we are to be in Christ?
No, that is not the purpose. We can talk about their purpose, if you'd like.
I think it is fine to participate in this religious holiday but I would think that living out our changed state in Christ by a life that reflects the principles taught in God's Law to be more desirable and actually, what is required of those who walk by faith, according to the Spirit, and not by sight.
Show me your faith without works, and I'll show you dead faith.
We must resist the temptation to spiritualize everything, which effectually abolishes the practical commandments God gave for our benefit.
Dorla,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the support! I'm glad you enjoyed the post and got something out of it.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI don't wish to censor you. Keep your disagreements respectful and there won't be a problem.
But by promoting a different calendar and day for Yom Kippur--or any of the moedim--you will not provoke Jews to jealousy for faith in Yeshua.
Really? I don't believe that. I don't believe a Jew will say, "Gosh, I'm not gonna believe in this Yeshua as Messiah because, you know, his followers keep Yom Kippur a few days later than the medieval Jewish calendar."
I don't buy it.
I respect Judaism's leaders, I respect even the rulings and traditions put forth in the Talmud. I uphold it even, by putting it in its proper place behind Scripture.
Hi Jeff,
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by and posting.
You said,
As someone who has fellowship with many of the different Messianic movements, I have found the feast day dates to be one of the hardest issues to deal with. While I understand the desire to stand in solidarity with our Jewish brothers, I cannot in good conscience follow the orthodox calendar. The Torah speaks very clearly about seeing the moon and the barley and how can I go against that? Just because someone has been doing something for longer does not make it correct.
Very well put.
The argument, "We've been doing it for longer means we're right." is a foolish argument.
By that same argument, all Protestants would have to convert to Catholicism.
I believe that if we walk our walk with an earnest heartfelt love for God, then we will arouse jealousy in our Jewish brothers. I see that in you and pray that you do not lose it. Shalom, Jeff.
Thank you, bro. Take care.
Hi IDisposable,
ReplyDeleteYou must be visiting from CodeProject or some other software programming site. :-)
I'm open to the possibility that everything I know about the end times is wrong.
:-)
I put forth these ideas about Messiah-as-King based on my own interpretation of Scripture, especially the prophecies about him judging all the nations, bringing lasting peace, etc.
Thanks for visiting.
Efrayim,
ReplyDeleteGlad you enjoyed the post, bro.
I have not watched Ushpizin, I will keep a lookout for that. Thanks.
Hi Patrick,
ReplyDeleteI have just discovered your site. A great learning resource, thank you for the time you've put in.
Thanks, I hope you stick around and enjoy it.
Christians steeped in orthodoxy are quick to use the word "legalism" when Jewish believers extol the virtues of the high holy days. They do so to the point of becoming neurotic about legalism. Point missed. G-d gave us these feasts as commemorations and celebrations, and did so for reasons, the mysteries of which are a joy to discover!
Heheh. Well said. Amen.
Can I throw this one "out there", to see where your expertise places this idea; Sukkot- the origins and meaning behind this feast was "G-d dwelling with His people". To cut a long story short, is it possible that Sukkot was what "Christmas" should be? If you examine John the Baptists' parenthood you can put the real time of Yeshua's birth as Sept/Oct, which places it on Sukkot. Is it possible that Yeshua was not born in an animal stall, but a Sukkot "booth"?
It's possible. I've heard this theory before, that Messiah was likely born on Sukkot based on the timing of the birth of John.
Perhaps I'll write up a post on Sukkot this week and we can discuss it further.
Shalom.
Deu 17:11 says that we are to be concerned about al pi haTorah. Look up the word peh and you will see that it means "mouth." Yes, it is speaking of the, or at least an, Oral Torah being followed.
ReplyDeleteI don't know any Messianic who advocates blind obedience to the Rabbis, but on the issue of the calendar, they're right on!
We don't *ever* see Yeshua making the calendar the issue of dispute that it has become today. If anything, they attacked the religious authorities for their hypocrisy, failure to help the poor, denigration of women, etc.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI agree many are in error for throwing out the whole Talmud.
I think Jewish rabbis have who have spent thousands of year debating and studying the Torah have something to teach us.
Messiah didn't address the date of the calendar, of course, because the Jewish calendar as it stands wasn't created until the 4th century. (Recalling dates off the top of my head, take that number with a grain of salt.)
Prior to that, the calendar was observational, per Torah's commandment. Once the destruction of the Temple occurred, and Israel could no longer calculate the calendar by observation in Israel, the current calendar was created out of necessity.
I don't condemn anyone who keeps that calendar today. I only say, now that we're back in the land, we can see the Jewish calendar is off by a few days. In my opinion, it's now superfluous.
Judah,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if I offended you. If I try to explain,I'm afraid I will offend you more. Thank you for the things that you post. I learn a lot from them.
Pam
Me? Oh, not at all.
ReplyDeleteYou know, that's what stinks about the internet. You can never tell emotions. We're left to guess based on text. (And smileys :-))
We obviously disagree on some things. It's OK.
Thanks for your comments. We don't agree, but thanks for taking the time and posting your view on things.
Be blessed in Messiah, Pam.
You too, Judah. I don't want you to think I'm bagging on your faith because actually, I have a lot of respect for you and also for what you are doing.
ReplyDeleteIt has been my experience that Christians can become so involved with trying to maintain the 'correct' form of worship that we forget that the main thrust of Christ living in us is about the way we live our every day life and how we treat others. It is how much of our daily life we live to the glory of God. Worship is part of that but not the whole enchilada.
That's what I was trying to say. I was not critisizing keeping the Day of Atonement.
Hello! My name is Anders Branderud and I am from Sweden.
ReplyDeleteYou use NT and Paul in your argumentation.
Historical fact (the research of James Parkes; Charlesworth; Barrie Wilsson and other Scholars at leading universities implies this) is that Ribi Yehoshuas was a Pharisee.
The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original Netzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yәhoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.
Historical Scholars in leading universities (for example Bart Ehrman) agrees that NT has been redacted.
Ribi Yehoshua warned for false prophets who don’t produce good fruit = defined as don’t practise the commandments in Torah (Torah including oral Torah). See Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1-6.
Now you are confronted with the very words of historical Ribi Yehoshua. To follow him you need to start practising Torah non-selectively!
So why not start following Ribi Yehoshua? To follow him by practising the commandments in Torah including helping the needy gives true meaning of life!!
From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua – Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism
Hi Anders,
ReplyDeleteThank you for visiting.
I am familiar with Netzari Judaism. I think too many of them are focused on the plural marriage issue! (Yet still many good folks in that movement too.)
It's not a fact that Yeshua was a Pharisee. It's clear his teachings align with the House of Hillel Pharisees, yes. But let's not overstate our position. You may want to read the conversation I had with my brother regarding Messiah-as-Pharisee.
Regarding the redaction of the New Testament, I struggled with this issue too. I thought, "Isn't it entirely possible the anti-Jewish, anti-Torah leaders of the early Church (as early as 98 CE!) picked-and-choosed the canon to their liking? Isn't it possible they modified the gospels and Paul's letters to fit their theology?"
You won't like my answer. :-) It's not intellectually stimulating.
God answered me and said, "It's here by my hand."
That's it.
And that was enough for me.
Judah, I haven't been by your blog in a while, but I'm glad I stopped by. Your posts are always a good read and intellectually stimulating.
ReplyDeleteAs a gentile Christian, I don't think its possible for me to observe these feasts since I know nothing about them. Keep educating me and I might start.
“Who lied to you and said God’s Feasts aren’t for you?” (Judah)
ReplyDeletePaul and the Apostles (Jerusalem Council) for one.
Acts 15:28 – 29 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
This is a judgment rendered concerning some ritual ideas from Judaism being required of the Gentiles Paul is working with. Peter and the Jerusalem Council – which actually worked with the Pharisee’s (rabbi’s of their day – vs. 5) during this time – gave 3 things to follow and that’s it. Your requirements to follow the feasts – as nice as that is a gesture – is not an actual requirement.
Paul says nothing on observing the feasts – unless one takes communion as a type of Passover feast. Paul gives no admonition of such things to his Gentile readers – find me one place where this is done?
The gospels do nothing to help this case either – although Jesus and his disciples did follow the feasts – they are Jewish – this was part of their culture. None of them are Gentiles – and this isn’t discussed until Acts 15 for the first time. Prior to that no one is commanded to follow the feasts – that commandment does not exist in the NT.
I think if people feel the need to follow the Jewish feasts and festivals – and to be that close to the Jewish culture/customs – then they need to seriously consider converting to Judaism. Beyond that – I don’t see the requirement for attending feasts and festivals.
“Paul even told gentile believers to keep the Feasts” (Judah)
That’s a serious stretch from one passage. Paul, as I mentioned earlier, compares communion with Passover – this is the only letter in Paul’s works that ever mention celebration of a feast – and it’s always communion (in contrast with Passover – which is a fair comparison). No sukkot. No Yom Kippur. Nothing else. Sabbath, in and of itself, gets little mention to be honest.
No, Paul did not tell his Gentile followers to keep the feasts – if anything its feast – singular. Paul lays out no plan to them ever for doing this.
However, if someone wants to celebrate these feasts – I do find that admirable. However, I would ask them to check into a synagogue and learn about them firsthand – so they can celebrate with the community that does these things. I think it is both reasonable and fair to ask this of people interested – since they should not celebrate alone (if they do not have to) – or in a very small group – when there is a large one in the local synagogue. If they are not accepted there – then they need to make some choices.
Hi society,
ReplyDeleteYou said,
Paul gives no admonition of such things to his Gentile readers – find me one place where this is done?
I gave you one passage where he mentions Passover directly in a letter to gentile believers. He calls it Passover and uses Passover language like unleavened bread (matzah). He certainly wasn't speaking of some new religious ritual called communion. (Communion ritual isn't mentioned anywhere in the Scripture, friend.)
Paul talks about Feasts and Sabbaths in Romans as well, telling believers not to let anyone judge you in keeping them.
the Jewish feasts and festivals
They're not Jewish. They're God's.
Regarding Acts 15,
ReplyDeleteYou omitted a few crucial parts of the apostles' ruling:
-The ruling was to say you didn't have to be circumcised to be saved.
-The ruling states 4 crucial laws from the Torah that new gentile believers should observe, 2 of which are dietary. These laws aren't observed by modern Christianity.
-The ruling ends with the implication that since the Torah is preached everywhere on every Sabbath, new gentile believers will gradually learn God's Torah.
Hi Judah, let’s get into the ‘meat’ of this discussion. I am more than glad to talk about this topic.
ReplyDelete“I gave you one passage where he mentions Passover directly in a letter to gentile believers.” (Judah)
Yeah, I mentioned that in the last rebuttal – it’s the only single instance in the NT – it’s found in Corinthians. I am aware there is no mention of the word communion – but for all intensive purposes – communion seems to be a version of the Passover – which Paul seems to like to celebrate (they are quite interchangeable).
Irregardless, this is one instance from the whole of the NT – including 4 gospels, Acts, and 22 letters. That’s it – one instance? That’s not something I would use to build this case on.
“Paul talks about Feasts and Sabbaths in Romans as well, telling believers not to let anyone judge you in keeping them.” (Judah)
I am guessing you don’t go by chapter and verse for your citing of scripture – however – indulge me in this instance – where is this evidence so I can discuss it with you?
“The ruling was to say you didn't have to be circumcised to be saved.” (Judah)
Acts 15:5 “But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
I see 2 issues in there Judah – (1) circumcision (Abraham covenant) and (2) the Law of Moses (this is Torah)
Acts 5: 28-29 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
I see a few things here worth nothing from this letter read to the Gentiles:
(1) God (Holy Spirit) seemed to be pleased with the verdict
(2) Only 4 things are in Peter’s judgment on this whole issue (circumcision and the Law of Moses) – (a) abstain from things sacrificed to idols (b) from blood (c) from things strangled and (d) from fornication.
(3) I will note Paul even breaks these suggestions in his letters to various communities – in that he doesn’t seem to have a problem with things sacrificed to idols and being eaten.
“The ruling states 4 crucial laws from the Torah that new gentile believers should observe, 2 of which are dietary. These laws aren't observed by modern Christianity.” (Judah)
That’s the exact point – this is the only ever ruling on Torah law for Gentiles from the Jerusalem Council – and only 4 laws are asked to be kept. There is not a mention of a more depth keeping of the law in their ruling – and this was likely supported by the Pharisee’s also present…since this is the same ruling advised today by Jewish faithful to non-Judaism followers (we are not required to keep the law).
“The ruling ends with the implication that since the Torah is preached everywhere on every Sabbath, new gentile believers will gradually learn God's Torah.” (Judah)
Acts 5:21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Gentiles were never commanded to attend synagogue – yet many did (as is evidenced in Paul’s letters). I am guessing the synagogue functioned as the actual church for these early believers – since no church existed – so this was their meeting place to hear the words of God…words of God being Torah and Prophets – not the actual NT. So is the actual church still the synagogue also then?
However, Gentiles are not commanded to follow the totality of the law (not that the law is a bad thing – I think it is a good thing) – even unto this day. This would include the feasts and festival days – there is nothing asking us to adhere to these. Why? Gentiles are not part of that community – they have their own communities and cultures. This is still the current Jewish position on this.
Hi again society,
ReplyDeleteIf you need more evidence from the gospels, let me point you to Messiah's own succinct words on the matter of keeping God's Torah:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I can give you more from Romans and from Ephesians....But the burden of proof is on you, not on me.
Why?
My theology is this: that the New Testament doesn't conflict with Torah or the prophets.
Your theology is: gentiles have no business keeping the Torah or the prophets or God's Feasts or God's Sabbaths.
Your position is the radical one, so where is the Scriptural support for it?
I mean, that theology is a huge departure from the rest of Scripture! (Example: Isaiah's talk about how blessed are gentiles who keep God's Sabbath.)
If your theology was correct, there would be boat-loads of Scripture saying, "Hey, you know what? The Torah and the Prophets and Messiah was wrong -- God's Torah and his commandments and His feasts are all abolished. When I told you they were "eternal statutues for you forever", I was really just saying, 'Until Jesus comes.'
Where are the boatloads of Scripture supporting that position? They don't exist, because such a position contradicts the rest of Scripture.
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:17-19)
ReplyDeleteHere’s a question you might remember for the scriptures ‘how does this read to you?’ I will answer how it reads to me.
(a) The key word is ‘fulfill’. Jesus has to be referring to the prophets here – which made prophecies that can be fulfilled – and maybe certain single texts in Torah. This is backed up through-out Matthew (and the other gospels and letters) who reference the Prophets to prove Jesus fulfilled ‘a prophecy’.
EX: Matt 21:5 “SAY TO THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, 'BEHOLD YOUR KING IS COMING TO YOU, GENTLE, AND MOUNTED ON A DONKEY, EVEN ON A COLT, THE FOAL OF A BEAST OF BURDEN.'" (pulled from Zechariah 9:9)
(b) The Law is not something you can ‘fulfill’ – not in the same sense of fulfilling a prophecy – that’s not how the law works. Laws exist for the benefit of society and to help keep it safe and coordinated. The only way to ‘fulfill’ that is to live by the nature of the law. I think Jesus rabbinic in nature – and had some great insight into the Torah/Prophets – was sent from God to ‘teach’.
EX: Matt 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (pulled from Exodus 20:14).
Jesus ‘fulfills’ the law in that he makes it more complete – ideas more fleshed out and deeper as a teaching. Jesus gets to the intent of the law with his teachings – and even mentions the 2 greatest commandments eventually – sums up Law and Prophets with a single sentence.
You want to fulfill the Law – well – here is the summation of it:
Matt 7:12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets”
Or
Matt 22:37-40 “And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. 'On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
What more can really be said – that Jesus didn’t say in his personal summation of the Law and Prophets? How is that for fulfillment – completeness.
“My theology is this: that the New Testament doesn't conflict with Torah or the prophets.” (Judah)
Actually – so is mine. Read above.
“Your theology is: gentiles have no business keeping the Torah or the prophets or God's Feasts or God's Sabbaths.” (Judah)
I said nothing of the sort – except that the Jerusalem Council made one ruling concerning what Gentiles needed to do concerning the Law (from Peter, James, and John) and that Jesus sums up the Law/Prophets in simple intents. Nowhere – and I repeat – nowhere are the festivals or feasts addressed as commandments for Gentiles to follow. Gentiles have their own cultures.
“Your position is the radical one, so where is the Scriptural support for it?” (Judah)
Not radical at all – see above for my response. I know for a solidifiable fact I am have never read in the NT anything about a Gentile following the festivals and feasts – nowhere. Now communion is the exception (or Passover meal) – but even that is only a meal (not a week’s worth of events like actual Passover).
What is radical and a departure for Gentiles – is what the Messianics are approving as interpretation. Jesus himself never even made this leap. Who should I believe – my messiah or my faiths messianics?
“If your theology was correct, there would be boat-loads of Scripture saying, "Hey, you know what? The Torah and the Prophets and Messiah were wrong -- God's Torah and his commandments and His feasts are all abolished. When I told you they were "eternal statutes for you forever", I was really just saying, 'Until Jesus comes.'” (Judah)
I don’t believe the Messiah, Torah, or Prophets were wrong at all. Fact is, Jesus’ ‘fulfillment’ I have explained in some detail. The feasts and festivals still exist – in Judaism – and if you want to celebrate them – feel free. To think they are commanded of us is a serious interpretive stretch.
If we follow the teachings given by Jesus – we are following the Torah and Prophets – this seems to be made clear by Jesus…but in essence – those summations I provided from Matthew are really all we need to follow.
“Where are the boatloads of Scripture supporting that position? They don't exist, because such a position contradicts the rest of Scripture.” (Judah)
I don’t need boatloads – I just need Matthew (the single gospel) to refute a position you think exists in Matthew. But if you want more – then I will give you more.
Have you been circumcised? Have you eaten Passover?
Exodus 12:43 “The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: no foreigner is to eat of it”
Exodus 12:48 “But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.”
Again – have you been circumcised? These scriptures are pulled straight from the Law/Torah. If not, are you actually keeping the Law?
If we want to get that technical for Gentiles then we need to study all of the Law and what it asks us to follow. And there is more from the Law – which is not for Gentiles to keep - it is not a Gentiles law (Gentiles have their own societies, cultures, and communities).
Society, you said,
ReplyDelete"How does this [Matthew 5] read to you?"
It reads plain. Nothing to "explain away". Teach others to keep the Torah = great in God's kingdom. That's how it reads, that's how I interpret it. No drawn-out, mystical interpretation required. :-)
Jesus ‘fulfills’ the law in that he makes it more complete – ideas more fleshed out and deeper as a teaching.
Messiah strengthened the commandment: adultery isn't just having sex with someone other than your spouse, it's also lusting after someone other than your spouse.
But what you're implying is, now that the commandment is fulfilled, the commandment itself doesn't apply to us in Messiah.
That's like saying, "Jesus fulfilled the commandment about adultery. Now we can have sex with anyone outside of marriage."
Society, you said,
Now communion is the exception (or Passover meal) – but even that is only a meal (not a week’s worth of events like actual Passover).
Wow. You just made that up.
There is zero Scriptual basis for a new religious ritual called Communion, it's not mentioned anywhere in Scripture.
Paul calls it Passover, uses Passover language like "unleavened bread", and tells gentiles to keep it.
For the intellectually honest observer, the matter is clear. I prefer clarity to agreement.
“It reads plain. Nothing to "explain away". Teach others to keep the Torah = great in God's kingdom. That's how it reads, that's how I interpret it. No drawn-out, mystical interpretation required. :-)” (Judah)
ReplyDeleteNothing to explain – really? That’s a few verses in a chapter – in a sermon – predicated by the beatitudes – within a whole book called Matthew. There is a lot to look at concerning the totality of what Jesus is saying there.
It does not say ‘teach others to keep Torah’ – but about ‘commandments’ and ‘fulfillment’. The key to understanding that is determining what that means – and for some reason this means keeping the festivals and feasts for you (even though you are gentile and try keep Passover against the teaching of the law).
Paul teaches on Passover (or what is communion in churches – just not celebrated like communion). You do know Passover is a week long event right? It is not a singular day event – correct? Yet Paul does not reference the whole of the Passover festival – just the meal. That’s groovy but that’s not Passover – that’s just the Passover meal.
There is no proof Paul wanted people to follow the feasts and festivals – especially Gentiles – who were not allowed anyways (without circumcision) – thus the huge debates Paul has with people concerning this in Acts and letters of his. Doesn’t matter anyways – Paul does not advocate the keeping of the 4 teachings given to him from the Jerusalem council nor does he teach to follow the festivals/feasts for the Gentiles. If this so – prove Paul does admonish this idea? I cannot find anything on it.
I also presented to you 2 ways fulfillment was to be read – and you shrugged that off – yet they are not without merit.
“But what you're implying is, now that the commandment is fulfilled, the commandment itself doesn't apply to us in Messiah” (Judah)
What I am implying is you cannot fulfill Torah or commandments – like how prophecy can be fulfilled (meet certain requirements and it’s fulfilled). Law does not function that way. Law is to be lived out for the benefit of society and community – and I see Jesus breaking down the law for his followers to basics. Reason – cause these gospels were written to include gentiles and what aspects of the Torah they could keep. No mention of festival keeping is in the passages – ever…except again – the singular Passover meal.
“That's like saying, "Jesus fulfilled the commandment about adultery. Now we can have sex with anyone outside of marriage."” (Judah)
No, fulfillment of a teaching is to live by the teaching – this is my point concerning the teachings of Jesus. It’s not that Torah is not to be kept – but the essence of Torah – intent – is what is passed onto the Gentiles – and these are mainly moral in nature and not ritual.
“Paul calls it Passover, uses Passover language like "unleavened bread", and tells gentiles to keep it.” (Judah)
Prove that point then. I see Paul admonishing a Passover meal but not a whole week’s worth of events – which Passover is. Now I may be wrong – but if I am – then let me know where.
“For the intellectually honest observer, the matter is clear. I prefer clarity to agreement.” (Judah)
I agree…and you can’t be more honest than having all the information being presented right before you in detail by detail – and this I have done.
“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day” (Colossians 2:16)
This is the only mention of the term festival I could find – and Paul seems to not care about people keeping or not keeping festivals – or a new moon for that matter (pagan in nature). So I am not even sure he is referencing Jewish festivals here. Either way – no commandment to follow them is set.
Hi again Society,
ReplyDeleteIt does not say ‘teach others to keep Torah’
I'm taken aback at this denial of reality. Especially since the reality is so plain!
Messiah says, "nothing will pass from the Torah until heaven and earth pass away. Teach someone to break the least commandment, you're least in God's kingdom"
And you say he's not talking about Torah?!
Are you sure you don't want to take that back? I suspect even the most hard-line anti-semitic Christian won't agree with you; in my years of debating Christians, never has one made such a silly statement.
We can debate about subjective things, but I do not wish to debate about something so clear and non-subjective.
You state all kinds of inaccuraces...
Passover is a one-day feast (see Lev 23), not a week long feast. You're thinking of Unleavened Bread.
New moons aren't pagan, they start the months in God's calendar.
Sigh.
Okay apparently I have to break this position again – here is the scripture reference:
ReplyDeleteMatthew 5:17 – 20: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Part 1: Jesus came to ‘fulfill’ the Law (Torah) and Prophets – question is what does ‘fulfill’ mean? I have laid out a 2 part system as to what could mean with both aspects – Torah and Prophets. Here it is again:
(a) The key word is ‘fulfill’. Jesus has to be referring to the prophets here – which made prophecies that can be fulfilled – and maybe certain single texts in Torah. This is backed up through-out Matthew (and the other gospels and letters) who reference the Prophets to prove Jesus fulfilled ‘a prophecy’.
EX: Matt 21:5 “SAY TO THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, 'BEHOLD YOUR KING IS COMING TO YOU, GENTLE, AND MOUNTED ON A DONKEY, EVEN ON A COLT, THE FOAL OF A BEAST OF BURDEN.'" (pulled from Zechariah 9:9)
(b) The Law is not something you can ‘fulfill’ – not in the same sense of fulfilling a prophecy – that’s not how the law works. Laws exist for the benefit of society and to help keep it safe and coordinated. The only way to ‘fulfill’ that is to live by the nature of the law. I think Jesus rabbinic in nature – and had some great insight into the Torah/Prophets – was sent from God to ‘teach’.
EX: Matt 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (pulled from Exodus 20:14).
Jesus gets to the intent of the law with his teachings – and even mentions the 2 greatest commandments eventually – sums up Law and Prophets with a single sentence.
You want to fulfill the Law – well – here is the summation of it:
Matt 7:12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets”
Or
Matt 22:37-40 “And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. 'On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
What more can really be said – that Jesus didn’t say in his personal summation of the Law and Prophets? How is that for fulfillment – completeness.
Part 2: The annulment of commandments – what commandments? Jesus up to this point has only discussed his core teachings in Matthew – the beatitudes. Does he mean the idea’s on which he is about to teach concerning the Torah – Matt 7:12 and Matt 22:37-40 – both summations of Torah and Prophets (according to Jesus’ own words). Why might this be the case?
Part 3: Apparently Jesus wants our righteousness to surpass theirs. They both follow mitzvot. What is the difference between Jesus and the Pharisee’s? Yet there is a qualified difference we see in the exchanges throughout Matthew concerning ‘hypocrisy’ and ‘sincerity’. The focus of the law is people not the just the following of the law – so in Jesus’ teachings on Torah this is what shines through.
I am not saying Jesus does not want us to follow Torah – but as a teacher why should not his students adhere to his interpretations of Torah? Nowhere does Jesus exclaim we need to follow the feasts and festivals – and the fact you use two verses in Matthew to prove this is not a solid foundation to build from (that’s like 1% of all the actual Matthew passages).
I also think you are stretching the verses to mean more than they are actually saying – to include Gentiles in following the feasts and festivals. These are not necessary for us – but if we want – then so be it. For some reason, Peter and his crew in Jerusalem saw no need for Gentiles to follow the feasts & festivals – in their verdict in Acts 15 – nothing is mentioned concerning those feasts…and in their dealings through-out Acts – no commandment is given to Gentiles concerning this.
“And you say he's not talking about Torah?!” (Judah)
I am not saying Jesus is not teaching on Torah – this is obvious from his teachings. But I am saying in his statement he is referencing his teachings on Torah and he never mentions Yom Kippur (I am not sure why if it is so important for Gentiles?).
“Passover is a one-day feast (see Lev 23), not a week long feast. You're thinking of Unleavened Bread.” (Judah)
“(Hebrew: Pesach) First of three PILGRIM FESTIVALS, beginning on 15 Nisan. It commemorates the EXODUS from Egypt. The festival is observed for seven days. The first and seventh day are feast days” (MyJewishlearning.com)
“New moons aren't pagan, they start the months in God's calendar.” (Judah)
Good point about the moons – I checked that up and you are right on this one. It seems the use of the moon to determine spring was part of the process – good call.
“but I do not wish to debate about something so clear and non-subjective.” (Judah)
Just it’s not that clear…if it was that clear (as you claim) the church would be practicing these Jewish customs world-wide from early church history until now – this did not happen (as we both know). One has to conclude the obvious from that – it’s not very clear at all.
Society,
ReplyDeletePlease keep in mind that there was one very good reason that the results of the meeting of the leaders in Jerusalem, briefly recorded in what we now call the 15th chapter of the book of Acts, were minimal.
The temple was still standing!
To instruct the new "gentile" believers that they were to start keeping the feast days would have started a war. A real one.
At that time there was only one way to keep the pilgrimage feasts of YHVH. Go up to Jerusalem and present your sacrifices to the Levites at the temple.
How well do you imagine that it would go if thousands of "gentiles" suddenly showed up at the temple expecting to be able to gain access and participate along with the "Jews"? Not well. Contrary to the Word of YHVH a barrier had been built to keep those "gentiles" out.
Back to chapter 15. The decision to keep the requirements to a mere 4 would today be considered a political one. But I'm sure the elders understood the gravity of the situation and simply passed on what they thought could be accomplished without too much trouble in those "gentile" societies.
And they well knew that it was not a "salvation issue".
I honestly think they didn't know quite what to do about the whole situation. It was happening rather quickly and without some controls could have undermined the foundations of the Jewish society in the Land.
As far as finding specific scriptures to prove the points we like to make, all we have are scraps of some personal correspondence that was written thousands of years and four languages ago. And while there may differences in the covenants, there aren't any contradictions.
There is a move of the Spirit of YHVH in these last days that will bring His people back to His ways.
One would do well to find out what those ways are rather than try and argue about what you think they might be.
Shalom and good study,
Efrayim
I am not saying Jesus does not want us to follow Torah.
ReplyDeleteSure sounds like you are, bro! Because next you said,
Nowhere does Jesus exclaim we need to follow the feasts and festivals
Yes he does, in both his actions and words.
-You get around His actions by saying he was doing it just because he was Jewish. (As if the Son wouldn't honor the Feasts of the Father!)
-You get around His words by a dubious, airy interpretation of "fulfill", which has been thoroughly debunked in the post and in these comments.
All this theological hoop-jumping, just so you can remain in ignorance of God's Feasts and sabbath.
Let's clarify that right now, society. Is Messiah saying we should not follow Torah?
Regarding Passover, would you rather believe a Jew or read it in the Scriptures? We Jews don't have it all figured out. Read Leviticus 23. Passover is a 1 day feast, occurring on the 1st month, 14th day. Unleavened Bread, a related but separate feast, is what you were thinking of.
You keep calling these things "Jewish customs", yet God calls them "My Feasts, which you are to proclaim forever as holy."
Judah Himango,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your welcome!
You quoted: “I am not saying Jesus does not want us to follow Torah.”
and then wrote: “Sure sounds like you are, bro! Because next you said, (..)”
If we want to know information about the historical Jesus we should study what Historical Scholars in leading universities says. The Creator of this universe is intelligent and facts and historical evidence in this universe cannot possibly contradict Him.
His name was Ribi Yehoshua. Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described Ribi Yehoshua him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.
The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT (a Dead Sea scroll), demonstrates that all three of the major sects (including the Pharisees) of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah (for definition: see “Mishpat” and “Halakhah” at Glossaries in the first page at the above website). This necessarily implies that the Pharisaic leader Ribi Yehoshua practised Torah.
Rejecting Ribi Yehoshuas teaching would therefore imply rejecting first century Judaism, which implies rejecting תורה including Halakhah. We both know that תורה (Torah) is the Instructions (Torah in Hebrew translates Instruction in English according to Etymology) of the Creator (it is written in Torah which we both believe is the words of the Creator; and it is possible to prove using logic).
Lexicon:
P: Rejecting Ribi Yehoshuas teachings about practising תורה and Halakhah non-selectively.
Q: Rejecting the Creator.
P-> Q
I observe from your blog that you are not practising Torah and Halakhah non-selectively; which implies that you reject Ribi Yehoshuas teachings about practising תורה and Halakhah non-selectively. The logical conclusion from our lexicon is that you are rejecting the Creator. To reject that conclusion you would have to state that the research Scholars in leading universities are wrong, which would make you a non-scientific ignoramus.
So what is the solution for you not to reject the Creator; which I am sure you don’t want to do? Let’s solve it with logic! You don’t want to reject the Creator: that is not Q.
P-> Q
not Q
Using a truth table gives the result: not P
The only solution for you to stop rejecting the Creator is to stop rejecting Ribi Yehoshuas teachings about practising תורה and Halakhah non-selectively. To follow Ribi Yehoshua the Messiah you need to learn how to practise Torah and Halakhah non-selectively; you do that by signing up in our Khavruta (Distance Study). You will find more information about this at www.netzarim.co.il ; click at the link “Non Jews” in our Netzarim Quarter (see the left panel). If you want follow Ribi Yehoshua by practising his Torah and Halakhah-teachings we will be more than glad to help and support you!
Finding the historical Jew, who was a Pharisee Ribi and following him brings you into Torah, which gives you a rich and meaningful life here on earth and great rewards in life after death (“heaven”)!
All the best,
Anders Branderud
Hi Anders,
ReplyDeleteYou said,
If we want to know information about the historical Jesus we should study what Historical Scholars in leading universities says.
Nonsense. Leading academics can't agree on a thing, and many of them are radical humanists and deny the existence God altogether. I rely on them for almost nothing.
Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT (a Dead Sea scroll), demonstrates that all three of the major sects (including the Pharisees) of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah (for definition: see “Mishpat” and “Halakhah” at Glossaries in the first page at the above website).
Maybe. But the Talmud now makes claims about the Temple being destroyed because the Sadducees didn't keep the Talmud. Thoughts?
you reject...Ribi Yehoshua's teaching and practising תורה and Halakhah non-selectively
Seems to me Messiah was selective about the Oral Torah traditions he kept. For example, he seems to reject the oral mitvah regarding washing of hands before eating. Also the oral mitzvah regarding picking grain on Sabbath.
That isn't to say the traditions recorded in the Talmud should all be thrown out; on the contrary, we can learn from Jewish scholars and sages who've studied the Torah their whole lives. But we mustn't take their words with the same authority as Scripture.
Judah Himango,
ReplyDeleteHello again,
I wrote:
“P-> Q
not Q
Using a truth table gives the result: not P”
I am wrong about the last row in my quote.
We can only say that it is either P or not P.
To give an example:
If the radio is on, one can hear music.
But if one cannot hear music; we cannot know if the radio is on or not. E.g., maybe the news is on, the speaker is disconnected, etc.
Anyway. The following lexicon is true as I demonstrated in my last post.
Lexicon:
P: Rejecting Ribi Yehoshuas teachings about practising תורה and Halakhah non-selectively.
Q: Rejecting the Creator.
P-> Q
As long as P is true, then Q is true. Another lexicon is this:
R: Following Ribi Yehoshuas teachings about practising תורה and Halakhah non-selectively.
S: Following the Creator.
R -> S
It is true according to Torah that the person who follows Torah and Halakhah non-selectively follows the Creator (according to Torah which we both believe is the words of the Creator; and it is possible to prove using logic). The person who follows Torah selectively rejects mitzwot (commandments) of Torah. That is rejecting Torâh as an indivisible whole.
You write: “Leading academics can't agree on a thing, and many of them are radical humanists and deny the existence God altogether. I rely on them for almost nothing.”
Give one example, please! Demonstrate your claims! The research of historical Scholars in leading universities implies that Ribi Yehoshua is a Pharisee. I recommend those reading this blog to read Barrie Wilson – www.barriewilson.com .
You say: “I rely on them for almost nothing”
It is irrational to reject what Scholars in leading universities say without being able to disproof them by historical research; which you cannot! You are simply irrational and reject things that don’t agree with your blind faith.
The Creator of the universe is very intelligent; and facts and hard evidence in this universe don’t contradict Him!
From Anders Branderud