Israel and the Lebanese Party of Allah (Hizballah) agree to a prisoner swap.
Israel sends over an alive & well Samir Kuntar to Hizballah.
Hizballah sends over 2 coffins containing the mutilated corpses of 2 Israeli soldiers.
Samir Kuntar -- you know, the guy who was imprisoned for murdering an Israeli policeman, taking an Israeli family hostage, shooting the father in the back of the head while his wife and daughter watched, and smashing in the 4 year old daughter's head, killing her as well.
Israeli President Shimon Peres, who authorized the prisoner swap, released a statement today,
"As Kuntar the murderer, who crushed the skull of four year old Einat with his gun butt and shot her father in cold blood, is released, the nation of Israel is in tears.
Israel is in the right, and justice is the true expression of man's victory. We will bow our heads in memory of the heroes who died. We shall continue to stand upright, as a nation guided by morals.If we ask where the supreme moral victory lies and where human defeat lies; in the welcome for an indescribably vile murderer or the candles in memory of loved ones, the answer is clear. Lebanon shall be ashamed and it needs this shame in order to survive properly."
Great speech, but it's hard to believe those words when the foolishness of the government authorized this "prisoner" swap in the first place.
Sometimes I wonder whether Messiah's "love your enemies" instruction was not meant to be applied in all circumstances. I relate more to the psalmist's words!
If only you would slay the wicked, God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
They invoke your name, God, with evil intent;
yes, your enemies misuse it.
Lord, how I hate those who hate you!
I have contempt for those who defy you!
I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
Hi again!
ReplyDeleteSometimes I wonder whether Messiah's "love your enemies" instruction was not meant to be applied in all circumstances. I relate more to the psalmist's words!
As hard as I know it is, I don't think that we should hate that man, but we should hate what he does.
We Christians do not have the right to hate him as a person because we would naturally all be the same without God's grace. We do not know whether he is elect or not... I mean, look at Paul, he certainly wasn't one the people would look on and say "well, now he's a guy that God would save".
As you know, we are commanded to love our enemies and etc.
God on the other hand has the right to hate. He can hate or love whoever He wants to. We can only love everyone.
Again, we don't love what bad people do, we hate it, we speak against it, and we believe that God has given the government the right,and duty to punish that man for what he has done(Romans 13) but we as individuals don't take vengeance into our own hands because that is God's. And He can use government or other things to bring that about, if He chooses to do so.
I say all that to quote this quote that I really like:
O ye saints, when reproached and persecuted, look farther than man, spend not your wrath on him. Alas! They are but instruments in the devil’s hand. Save your displeasure for Satan, who is thy chief enemy. These may be won to Christ’s side, and so become thy friends at last. Now and then we see some running away from the devil’s colours, and washing thy wounds with their tears, which they have made with their cruelty. It is a notable passage in Anselm, compares the heretic and the persecutor to the horse, and the devil to the rider. Now, saith he, in battle, when the enemy comes riding up, the valiant soldier ‘is angry not with the horse, but horseman; he labours to kill the man, that he may possess the horse for his use; thus must we do with the wicked, we are not to bend our wrath against them, but Satan that rides them, and spurs them on, labouring by prayer for them as Christ did on the cross, to dismount the devil, that so these miserable souls hackneyed by him may be delivered from him.
-William Gurnall
Hi Sarah.
ReplyDeleteThank you for that word. I realize there's some wisdom in it.
Can I ask a question? How does "don't hate anyone" fit with the psalmist's words? Are we saying the psalmist was wrong for hating those who hate God?
(Real question, not a loaded/gotcha or anything like that.)
Shalom.
Sarrah & Judah...
ReplyDeletePerhaps hatred of one's enemies is applicable only to those who are enemies of G-d, not personal enemies (from your own people).
It's written in Leviticus 19:18:
"Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."
You remember that Yeshua said that we should pray for our enemies:
"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..." Matthew 5:44
But in Jeremiah 11:14 it is written:
"So do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them; for I will not hear them in the time that they cry out to Me because of their trouble."
From the above, I take that there's time not to pray for someone who is G-d's enemy. Does this also mean that there's also a time to hate someone?
Also, consider the following:
"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death." (1 John. 5:16,17)
When should we stop praying for (which also means stopping caring for and loving) the sinner (according to above?)
Are there enemies of G-d for whom Yeshua's admonition to pray for enemies does not apply (in the light of the above words from Paul?) It seems from the scripture that it is indeed the case.
Also, consider Ecclesiastes 3:8 "....A time to love and a time to hate."
Gene
I consulted my dad on this subject... he too says that saint Paul is an example:
ReplyDeleteI would use the example of Saul/Paul. It would have seemed reasonable to hate him, but retrospect shows us how wrong we would have been. Plus, we cannot discount God's control. If something merciless occurs, we still know that God could have stopped it and did not. The Psalmists hatred was a hatred of a concept… that they hated God. We hate this concept and any display of it! But we are not to "hate" as in a condemnation way since this is not our place. We are not so much as giving them "room" as we are giving God "room".
Even if the Psalmist really did hate those people, does his action nullify Christ's commandment? Just because someone else does something wrong doesn't give us the right to do it. I mean, look at David... he wasn't the perfect example of moral man.
We are to love our enemy, and what enemy do we as Christians have who is not God's enemy? When Christ said to love your enemies, I don't think that He meant only love the enemies that love God...if they loved God I don't think that they would be considered a Christian's enemies.
And, as my dad told me:
"When in doubt on seemingly "gray" passages, we seek to stand with what is unquestionably right. What is the most Godly response? Which one exhibits the most faith?"
Sarah...
ReplyDelete"When in doubt on seemingly "gray" passages, we seek to stand with what is unquestionably right. What is the most Godly response? Which one exhibits the most faith?"
While this is true, some "Christian" groups use this test of "unquestionably right" interpretation to preach pacificism and inaction in the face of evil, and to condemn the defenders who strike back(let's say "Israel" or someone who would defend own life of that of his family).
Let me ask you - was it a loving thing for Jesus to overturn the tables of the money changers in the temple and took a cord of whip and beat some of them as he chased them out? Did he LOVE those sinners? What if WE displayed that kind of LOVE, would it be OK? Perhaps he loved them "in the spirit" and "hated them" in action?
Also, to say that David's psalms were not G-d inspired/breathed (as Paul said) and were words of a fallen man, is to put into question much of the scripture. There's a difference in the scriptures between STORIES ABOUT certain people, and TEACHINGS and WORSHIP (which is what psalms are). If we dont' make that distinction, we may as well throw away or cast doubt on Peter's personal writings/letters to believers(since we know how wrong he was in many of his dealings), or the wisdom of Solomon in the Proverbs (since he didn't seem to show much wisdom in his personal life), etc. We can cast doubt on much of New Testament, since it was written by fallen men and most of the writing in it doesn't start with "Thus says the Lord".
Gene
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteInteresting answer. I appreciate you consulting your dad, too, I think that reveals you recognize wisdom in your elders.
My fear is that "which response exhibits the most faith" could be abused to mean, "Don't do anything in by your own actions, make it all faith-based." This leads to pacifism, which is not Scriptural.
Maybe that's what Gene is getting at too.
I cannot make myself believe the psalmist was wrong for his hatred of God's enemies. Obama's pastor did something similar and I think he was way off base, when he said the psalmist of Psalm 137 was wrong for praying for the destruction of Israel's captors.
Maybe Gene has something here: hatred of personal enemies is something different than hatred of God's enemies.
Thank you both for your input.
Mr. Shlomovich,
ReplyDeleteWhile this is true, some "Christian" groups use this test of "unquestionably right" interpretation to preach pacificism and inaction in the face of evil, and to condemn the defenders who strike back(let's say "Israel" or someone who would defend own life of that of his family).
I am not trying to teach pacifism… the test of whether something is unquestionably right is to hold that something up to the Bible. What does the Bible say?
In the case of government, as I said in one of my earlier posts, government has the God given right and duty to punish evil doers (Romans14) and part of the government’s duty is to protect and defend it’s people. In the case of a family, the father, the husband, has the God given right and duty to protect his wife and children.
Let me ask you - was it a loving thing for Jesus to overturn the tables of the money changers in the temple and took a cord of whip and beat some of them as he chased them out? Did he LOVE those sinners? What if WE displayed that kind of LOVE, would it be OK? Perhaps he loved them "in the spirit" and "hated them" in action?
I don’t know if Jesus/God loved those sinners. But my point isn’t whether Jesus/God has the right to hate,(He does) but whether we humans, we created beings, have the right to hate other people.
Jesus commanded us to love our enemies. But the Bible does not say that God is obligated to love His enemies. God chooses to love some of them(us humans being naturally the enemies of God).
Oh, and I want to add that (and you probably know this already, this just helps to keep my thoughts going, reiterating what I have learned ‘outloud’) the demonstration of love will not always seem to be the nicest thing. For example, if a Christian meets a person who does not know the truth, for instance, a person who believes that salvation is by works, the Christian ought to correct that person, using Scripture. That person may reply that the Christian is wrong to forth his views as absolute truth. That person may even consider the Christian to be hateful to say that the way of salvation presented in the Bible is the only way of salvation. But it was actually in love that the Christian did that.
to say that David's psalms were not G-d inspired/breathed (as Paul said) and were words of a fallen man, is to put into question much of the scripture. There's a difference in the scriptures between STORIES ABOUT certain people, and TEACHINGS and WORSHIP (which is what psalms are).
You are right about this point… I talked to my dad about it and he says that it is right and explained things. I sometimes hurry too fast in replying to people, without thinking things through all of the way. I should have run my statement by my dad before I posted it. Thanks for correcting me :). I do believe that the Psalms were inspired…and I see what you mean about it affecting the rest of Scripture.
Mr. Himango,
ReplyDelete“My fear is that "which response exhibits the most faith" could be abused to mean, "Don't do anything in by your own actions, make it all faith-based." This leads to pacifism, which is not Scriptural.
Yes, it could, especially these days, be abused to mean stuff like that… I’ll try to get back with you on this one.
I cannot make myself believe the psalmist was wrong for his hatred of God's enemies. Obama's pastor did something similar and I think he was way off base, when he said the psalmist of Psalm 137 was wrong for praying for the destruction of Israel's captors.
Yes, you are right… as was Mr. Shlomovich on that point. Talking with my dad (my wise elder :) he pointed out that the Psalms are inspired…and therefore they cannot have anything wrong in them. And as Mr. Shlomovich said, if the Psalmist was wrong on some things then that would cast doubt on the rightness of the rest of Scripture. The Psalmist was right in hating whatever he hated.
But was it really the people that the Psalmist hated? Or was it the fact that those people hated God?
Maybe Gene has something here: hatred of personal enemies is something different than hatred of God's enemies.
Yes….but I am wondering whether or not we can really hate God’s enemies as a people. Or whether we should hate the fact that God’s enemies hate Him. Whether we should hate what those people’s lives are defined by (hatred of God).
But…let’s say, for the moment, that it is true that the Psalmist hated God’s enemies as individual people…Because they hate God. And let us say that because of this, there are certain enemies that we are aloud to hate.
This brings up some questions. How are we allowed to hate them? Are we bitter against them, and condemnatory towards them? Are we to treat them with contempt, and never speak to them but with a rebuke? Is this a temporary hatred? Are we aloud to stop hating certain people when we think that they have stopped hating God? If we hate them, then doesn’t that mean that we shouldn’t give the gospel to the people that hate God….because that would be a loving act.
Assuming that we only hate those who hate God…then do we just hate those that are open about it? Or do we make assumptions about people? And, back to Samir Kuntar, how do we know that his wicked action of killing those people was done out of spite for God, and not just out of hatred of Jewish people? How can we say that he hated God? His action probably didn’t have anything to do God. He probably just did it out of hatred for those people.
Wouldn’t there be some sort of guidelines for hate in the Bible?
This is a controversial issue though…… Thanks for being patient with me :)
Mr.Shlomovich,
ReplyDeleteCorrection,in reference to government I meant Romans 13, not 14. Sorry about that.
Good questions, Sarah. I think it's likely Kuntar is a Muslim who's theology dictates he hate the Jewish state.
ReplyDeleteJudah,
ReplyDeleteIt is fine to be angry but it is not fine to be angry and sin because of it. You don't want to become like your enemy. We are to overcome evil with good. How better to accomplish this feat than to love our enemies. Remember that Jesus loved us when we were at enmity with God and now that Jesus lives in us, we have the power of that same love to bestow upon our enemies. Being angry at that which angers God is righteous anger but vengence belongs only to Him.
On a less spiritual note, it makes me sick too.
Okay...I talked to my dad again, and it seems that I misunderstood what he was saying... he does think that the Psalmist hated his enemies,because hating God is what defines them. He said that in David's time they didn't have the commandment to "love your enemies" and therefore it was not wrong to hate them. I was also reminded of God telling the Israelites to wipe out other people's, and I can't say that that was wrong. And it wasn't wrong.
ReplyDeleteBut we do have the commandment now...so that changes things.
I brought this topic up in a debate group on Facebook, so if anyone wants to take a look:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2324112601&topic=4434