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No condemnation in Christ Jesus?

When I talk to Christians about keeping God's Feasts and his commandments in Torah, I'm often retorted by a Pauline quip, "There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus! I'm set free from the Law, praise Jesus!"

Are they right?

It's been on my mind lately and I want to discuss us here. If "no condemnation in Christ Jesus" means I shouldn't talk to Christians about celebrating God's Feasts nor encourage people to keep God's commandments, then I need serious correction myself and a deep change in my theology and understanding of the Scriptures! :)

What's more, if "no condemnation in Jesus" means "don't point out things Christians are doing wrong", we might as well abandon the Torah altogether and start sinning freely. Forget honoring your parents, forget "do not murder", forget "no adultery", forget "keep My Sabbath".

On the other hand, if that phrase isn't meant to excuse ignorance or disobedience of God's commandments in Torah, this point should be cleared up and Christians shouldn't use that as an excuse to disregard God's Feasts, God's righteous commandments, his just definition of right and wrong.

Let's search out the Scriptures and come to a better understanding of this matter.

The famous phrase comes from Paul's letter to the Romans, chapter 8, in the New Testament part of the Christian Bible. Here's the actual quote:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua, because through Yeshua the Torah of the Ruach of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the Torah was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, YHVH did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the Torah might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Ruach.

(Note: I'm using the original Hebrew names here;
YHVH = God's name,
Yeshua = Messiah's name,
Ruach = spirit or breath
Torah = instruction or law, often meaning the Law of Moses, which are the first 5 books of the Jewish and Christian Bibles])

Looking at this passage, the first thing that jumps at me is how the 8th chapter begins, "Therefore, ..." It seems we're missing something here; there was something that made Paul come to his conclusion in the beginning of chapter 8 that there is no condemnation for those in Messiah. I wonder, what made him come to this conclusion?

Remember that the chapter and verse numbers were NOT original in Scripture; they are later additions to Scripture meant to aide in study. The chapter 8 division is unfortunate, as it places an artificial separation between Paul's argument and his conclusion of that argument.

So, what is Paul's argument? What led him to the conclusion that there is no condemnation for those in Messiah? Let's look at the ending of the previous chapter to see what he's talking about.

Is the Torah sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the Torah. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the Torah had not said, "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from Torah, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from Torah; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the Torah is holy, and the commandments are holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

We know that the Torah is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I don't understand why I'm doing these things. For what I want to do I don't do, instead I do the things I hate. And if I do what I don't want to do, I agree that the Torah is good. As it is, it's no longer I myself who do it, but it's the sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, in my sinful nature. I have the desire to do what's good, but I can't carry it out. Instead of doing the good I want to do, I do the evil things I don't want to do. Now if I do what I don't want to do, it's no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's Torah; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Torah of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Yeshua the Messiah our Master!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's Torah, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


Wow! This is some deep stuff. Let's dissect this piece-at-a-time.

The problem: we're doing bad things even though we know better

The first part of his argument starts with, "Is the Torah sin? Certainly not!" Paul starts out by making a distinction between sin and Torah. This point will be crucial towards the end of his argument.

Paul drives this point home -- he says the Torah is "holy, righteous, and good." The Torah tells us what sin is; it's God's righteous and just definition of sin. The Torah tells us what the bad things are, thus making us aware that we do bad things all the time!

Paul then explores this deeper -- and I think this is where Christian folks get lost -- by saying that because Torah tells us what sin is, sin doesn't exist outside of Torah. If God never told us "don't covet", for example, we wouldn't know that coveting is sin. Same can be said for murder, adultery, promiscuity, even -- ahem -- homosexuality.

Now that we know coveting is sin, it becomes more attractive to our flesh, says Paul. Forbidden fruit complex, if you will.

Paul says, "Once I was alive apart from Torah; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." Heh. Ironic, isn't it? It's kind of like saying, "Before speed limits on our highways, I could speed all the time -- no problems! But now that the law about speed limits is here, I'm a lawbreaker! And I speed all the time! It shows me how terrible I am at following the law!"

Your next thought might be, "Ah, problem solved! We'll just get rid of the law, and now we're not lawbreakers anymore!"

Paul anticipated such foolish thought and preemptively nips that in the bud, "Did that which is good [the Torah], then, become death to me? By no means!"

Did you catch that? Paul will seem to contradict this later if you're not careful to understand what he's saying here. He is saying Torah is NOT death to him, but rather it is sin that is death to him. Torah's role in this matter is that it told us what sin is; that's it.

Ok, so where does that leave us? So far, the Torah told us what sin is, but is still holy, good, and righteous. We also have reasoned that now that sin has been revealed by Torah, we've come to realize we're really bad at this "living a holy life" thing; we sin all the time and do all kinds of bad things, even Paul. Paul goes into detail here -- why are we sinning even when we know what sin is? Why do we do bad things -- lie, cheat, steal, whatever -- when we know clearly right from wrong?

Why do we do bad things?

"We know that Torah is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I don't understand why I'm doing these things. For what I want to do I don't do, instead I do the things I hate. And if I do what I don't want to do, I agree that the Torah is good. As it is, it's no longer I myself who do it, but it's the sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, in my sinful nature. I have the desire to do what's good, but I can't carry it out. Instead of doing the good I want to do, I do the evil things I don't want to do. Now if I do what I don't want to do, it's no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's Torah; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Torah of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me."


Oooh, this is a nugget. Torah is so good -- spiritual, even! -- and we are utterly evil people by nature. God's definition of right and wrong -- the Torah -- is spiritual, but we're not. The divide happens there. Our knowledge of God's Torah convicts us; we know right and wrong. But our flesh and its desires to lie, cheat, steal, and be self-serving lead us in the opposite direction: our body naturally wants to do evil and whatever pleases itself. Our flesh doesn't desire to serve God; the flesh's natural desire is to stay alive by any means necessary. This desire is almost always selfish: we'll lie to get what we want, cheat to win, seek sinful things to bring pleasure to our bodies. But the mind, the intelligent part of our bodies, knows the dumb desires of the flesh don't bring real happiness, true well-being, or standing right with God.

The "law" brings sin and death? Not the one you're thinking of.

Paul introduces a new "law" here into the conversation. Look at the last bit of that passage: "I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's Torah; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Torah of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me."

Big, crucial crux here. You don't want to miss this. If you draw only 1 thing from this study, make it this: the law of sin is not the Torah -- Paul makes that crystal clear -- it's this new "law" at work in our flesh. He hinted at this in his first statement by saying, "Is the Torah sin? Certainly not!"

Now he's making it plainly obvious when he says, "I see another law at work...", contrasting this other law with God's Torah. This "other law" he calls the law of sin. It sits opposite the Torah, prescribing a self-serving, self-exalting, flesh pleasing life. The law of sin is the body's selfish desire, and is at odds with the Torah.

Ok, Paul, we got the message. Our mind, with it's knowledge of Torah, God's definition of right and wrong, tells us to run from sin, but our bodies move us in the other direction. This moving in the opposite direction from God's Torah is what Paul calls the "law of sin". Got it.

Paul's resolution to the hypocritical life of loving God yet still sinning

Ok, what now? We're in a bad situation here! We know what sin is, yet we sin all the time. Our dumb flesh overpowers our intelligent minds, leading to life devoid of God. What are we supposed to do now? Paul comes to a resolution below:

"I'm such a wretched man! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Yeshua the Messiah our Master!
I myself in my mind am a slave to God's Torah, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."


The resolution, Paul says, is found in Messiah. Messiah pardons the bad things we've done if we repent -- that is, completely turn our backs on sin and run back to God. So, even though we are indeed slaves to God's Torah in our minds -- and we ought to be! -- we still sin. The resolution to this conflicting lifestyle is that God provided a way of out this mess of contradictions and hypocrisy, by allowing us to come to back to God and have our sin wiped clean for those with soft, repentant hearts.

Applying the resolution to "no condemnation in Jesus"


We have some context now! Remember the quip we are addressing? We are armed with knowedge - we can solve it now! Let's look at the famous quip again:

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua, because through Yeshua the Torah of the Ruach of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the Torah was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, YHVH did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the Torah might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Ruach."



There is a confusing piece of this passage that we can now clear up, thanks to the stuff we just learned: there are 3 "torahs" or "laws" mentioned here, they are highlighted in different colors above:

  1. The Torah of the Ruach (spirit or breath) of life (Messiah himself)
  2. The law of sin and death (the desires of our flesh)
  3. The Torah [of Moses] (God's commandments, the Law)


Too often, we read that bit out of context and think Paul is contrasting the Torah of Moses with living by the Torah of the Spirit (that is, living in Messiah). But we just finished reading the context, and we know what he's talking about! Yes!

So, what is he talking about, you ask? Ah, we just need to think back to Paul's reasoning and his lengthy argument and resolution regarding sin:

1. God gave us the Torah, which defines sin.
2. By nature, our flesh rebels against God's Torah. This rebellion against Torah is called the law of sin.
3. God gave us a way out of this contradiction: the law of the Spirit of life, setting us free from condemnation of the law of sin.

Paul says the Torah is powerless to stop our flesh's desires; it's role is merely to tell us right form wrong, nothing about helping us stop sinning. Paul's right; we still do wrong even though Torah defines right and wrong. Since the Torah is powerless to stop us from sinning, we needed something to rectify the situation. Messiah did exactly this: even though we still sin, we have a way to be set right with God through our repentant hearts. He made the Torah-prescribed offering for sin on our behalf by being the ultimate, sacrifice lamb slain for the sin of humanity. He condemned sin itself, so that men aren't condemned to die as Torah would otherwise prescribe - no condemnation. Instead, Torah's requirements about us living holy and righteous lives before God are still able to be carried out despite our sin.

Awesome! All of this thanks to Messiah - wooo!

The conclusion? The phrase, "no condemnation in Jesus" means we're not condemned to our sentence of death, as prescribed to those who have broken God's Torah.

It doesn't mean we must keep silent about God's Torah; if anything, it means we should speak it boldly so that we know clearly right from wrong. Without the clear, concise guidelines in God's Torah, we're left with a wishy-washy, confused church that exists today.

I hope this little study has been helpful and leads you fine blog readers to a better understanding of Scripture, God's Torah in particular.

Shalom!



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18 comments:

  1. Wow, that's a long one Judah. I am having a little difficulty getting past the premise. I don't recall having used Romans 8:1 to support an argument that I shouldn't keep the Feasts, so do I need to read any further?

    I think Romans 8:1 tells us that Jesus bore ALL of the condemnation that we had coming to us on the cross. Do you believe that my doing or not doing something will bring me back under condemnation?

    Forever forgiven and alive in the Spirit,
    Gary

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  2. Heheh, Gary, surely it's not nearly as long as a Sunday sermon, eh? ;-)

    When it comes to blog posts, longer is better! ;-)

    On a serious note now, should you read beyond the premise? Yes! It's a study of what Paul meant when he said, "no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." I'm really trying to get to the bottom of what Paul's saying. So it doesn't matter if you haven't used the argument before; in any case, I should hope the study of the Scripture with context gives you a better understanding of it. You might find it interesting.

    So, if you can spare 15 minutes to read it, I'd love to hear what you think.

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  3. Out of curiosity, why do Christians not follow all the laws of the Torah then such as the laws of kashrut? Did Christians stop these practices right away? Did they just fade away over time?

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  4. Hi leckey,

    Christians don't because in the 4th century, when Rome officially became "Christian", they decided they wanted nothing to do with the Jews. Essentially, they created a new religion which is manifested today in the Roman Catholic Church and its Protestant (and Evangelical) offspring.

    This, despite the Messiah and all his initial followers keeping all the Torah.

    This post will help fill it in for you, leckey: Church, behold your founder

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  5. Without the Law, I wouldn't know I was a sinner and that I needed a Savior. The Law can never save me because even if I obey it, the Law is contrary to my nature. Only Jesus can save me. Only in Jesus do I become a new creation. As a Christian, I am now of dual natures. The Law is natural to my new nature in Christ but it is still opposed to my old carnal nature. But thanks be to God! That under that Law, my old carnal nature has been put to death and crucified with Christ that Christ in me might live!

    Pam

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  6. "Without the Law, I wouldn't know I was a sinner and that I needed a Savior."

    Precisely, Pam. Thanks for your excellent commentary as always.

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  7. Judah, how do you reconcile Gentiles observing the whole law with what Acts 15 says the Gentiles must observe?

    JasonH

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  8. Hi Judah,

    I would like to discuss this a bit more if you wouldn't mind. I'm not here to win a debate, I am just curious about the way you see things, your perspective.

    I saw your comment on what Timothy had written at Grace Head about Christians saying the Law has ended. Most of the Christians I know would say that meaning that the Covenant of the Law had ended and that the New Covenant of Grace began at Christ's death. They don't mean that we should disregard the Law or that we should behave immorally. I know there are some who are extreme these days and live however they desire and say it doesn't matter. Even going so far as to say the Law is evil. I guess I don't take them too seriously because they seem very immature in their faith and I figure they will grow. The majority of Gentile Christians, I believe are of the first instance.

    As a Gentile Christian, I know I balk at someone saying they 'keep the Law' because to me that implies that they must keep it or they aren't saved, a works based salvation. I have the feeling that it is misunderstanding somewhat the same as you may misunderstand someone saying the Law has ended. Could you explain to me a little more clearly what you do mean by the expression and what the Law means to you in light of your Salvation in Christ?Also, I have always been taught that the Sabbath Law is actually a religious ordinance and not a part of the Moral Law that is the rest of the Ten Commandments. We are taught that is why it is okay to worship on Sunday. I know early Christians worshiped on both days. That is really hard for me to pull off as I have a lot going and really need six days a week to get it done. I like worshiping corporately on Saturday but it really isn't always convenient and hard to work out when most everyone else worships on Sunday. I think I've babbled a bit more than I intended but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. Thanks.

    Pam

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  9. Hi Jason, thanks for stopping by and posting.

    Jason, I love Acts 15. The disciples said new gentile believers should start by following a subset of the Torah, called the Noahide laws.

    Here's the whole bit the disciples, including Paul, agreed new gentile believers should follow:

    "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

    Now, ironically, Christians today don't follow these, let alone all of the commandments. But are they saying, "don't follow all the Law?" No. If they were, they'd be going against Messiah's own words in Matthew 5. The disciples are saying something to the effect, "Here are the basics from the Law. You'll hear the rest preached every Sabbath in the synagogues."

    That's how I understand that passage. How about you? What do you think about the disciples decision to keep the Noahide laws in the Torah? (And why aren't Christians keeping something the disciples commanded of new gentile believers?)

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  10. "Now, ironically, Christians today don't follow these, let alone all of the commandments."

    What foods are polluted by idols these days? How can I tell?

    Sexual immorality - this one I see your point

    Strangled animals and blood - as far as i know i don't eat blood, unless you count red meat. How can I tell if an animal was strangled?

    "Here are the basics from the Law. You'll hear the rest preached every Sabbath in the synagogues."

    I don't see it this way. Gentiles were under Noahide laws, well, since Noah, but not under Mosiac law. That was given to Israel. That was not a covenant with Gentiles.

    Why was Paul so adamant about not circumcising Gentiles? He said it was a burden right? How can you take out part of the Law and not the whole of it? If you are going to abide by the Law you have to abide by the whole thing.

    We cannot be justified by the Law, only through Christ.

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  11. Hey Pam,

    Good conversation. I'll try to answer your questions and respond to some things you said.

    "As a Gentile Christian, I know I balk at someone saying they 'keep the Law' because to me that implies that they must keep it or they aren't saved, a works based salvation."

    Keeping the Law doesn't make one saved. If it did, we might as well all convert to Judaism.

    Messiah alone saves.

    I hope that clears that up: I don't keep the Law to be saved.

    "Could you explain to me a little more clearly what you do mean by the expression and what the Law means to you in light of your Salvation in Christ?

    Sure. The Law is God's commandments to me. It defines right and wrong through succinct statements such as, "You shall not covet."

    "Also, I have always been taught that the Sabbath Law is actually a religious ordinance and not a part of the Moral Law that is the rest of the Ten Commandments."

    I don't make a distinction between laws related to morality and laws related to ritual cleanliness; they're all God's commandments, after all.

    I don't see Scriptural support for the theology that we must keep only the 10 commandments, or only the laws related to morality. I don't see it in Scripture. If anything, Acts 15 leads me to believe otherwise, given how the disciples ruled that new gentile believers should keep the Noahide laws from Torah, which include religious ordinances such as abstaining from blood.

    "We are taught that is why it is okay to worship on Sunday."

    Pam, you're confusing worship and rest. We're free to worship God any day of the week, even Sunday, even every day of the week if you're so inclined! :-)

    Sabbath wasn't created for worship. Sabbath was created for man to give him a day of rest -- no work at all! Just relax, it's Sabbath. :-)

    The Sabbath is made for rest and Jesus told us that Sabbath was created for us, for our benefit. It's a blessing to truly rest one day a week, Pam. No shopping, no job obligations, no yard work...just rest. It truly is a blessing to take a day of rest...real deep shalom in that. Try it sometime.

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  12. Hello again Jason, thanks for your response man.

    "Strangled animals and blood - as far as i know i don't eat blood, unless you count red meat. How can I tell if an animal was strangled?"

    If you're truly interesting in following what the disciples commanded, I'd be glad to respond to this in a separate post.

    "I don't see it this way. Gentiles were under Noahide laws, well, since Noah, but not under Mosiac law. That was given to Israel. That was not a covenant with Gentiles."

    What do you make of the last part of that verse, regarding "Moses being taught in every synagogue every Sabbath"? Why would they bring up the Law if it was only for the Jews?

    You're right, Jason, the Law was given to God's people, Israel. But Paul told us that gentiles are grafted into God's people, Israel, through Messiah. This is how it came about that you, as a foreigner to the God of Israel and to His word, came under the blessings given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

    "Why was Paul so adamant about not circumcising Gentiles?"

    He didn't circumcise Titus because there were those saying he had to be circumcised to be saved.

    Why did Paul circumcise Timothy, a gentile?

    "How can you take out part of the Law and not the whole of it?"

    Good point. Messiah said something similar,

    "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

    You're right, Jason, we can't take out part of the Law. You're right, if we try to keep any of God's commandments, we ought to try to keep all of them.

    "We can't be justified by the Law, only by Christ."

    I hear that so much from Christians, it has become a religious cliche to me. What do you believe it means, Jason?

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  13. Judah,

    You made me laugh at myself, kid and that is very restful even on Thursday! You don't know me or how hard it is for me to ever relax! Now my husband can't relax unless he's working. My son says he's a shark and has to keep moving...but I like your approach!:0)

    When you say you keep all the Law with no distictions, do you mean the health and dietary laws too? Is that even possible?

    I keep hearing in the back of my head in regards to this convo, "He who keeps the Law without knowing the Law is a Law unto himself",--- that is probably more paraphrase than quote--- I believe that in Christ God has changed our nature and that His Laws have become natural to our inner man. I also believe that when we are in the Kingdom and have received our glorified bodies, we will keep all the commands of God by our own nature. We WILL love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. We won't want to kill, or steal, or covet, or commit adultry. That is how I understand being not only justified in Christ but reborn and in Him glorified! Jesus does what the Law was never given power to do, make us holy.

    Pam

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  14. p.s. Thank you for being willing to discuss this. :0)

    Pam

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  15. Hey Pam,

    When you say you keep all the Law with no distictions, do you mean the health and dietary laws too? Is that even possible?

    I figure that God knew what he was doing with the dietary laws. Our Father knows the foods that are good for his children.

    So yes, I do my best to keep those righteous and holy commandments God gave to us out of a desire to obey him as well as for the sake of my own bodily health.

    "Jesus does what the Law was never given power to do, make us holy."

    God has always been the one that makes us holy; this is something apparent prior to Jesus even. Leviticus 21 says,

    I the LORD am holy—I who make you holy.

    This entire blog post we're commenting on talks about what Paul saw as the purpose of the Law, and how it fit into this grace-based living. He came to the conclusion that while the Law defined sin, it didn't do anything to permanently rectify our sinful situation before God. That's what the Law was powerless to do, and is why we need the Messiah's sacrifice.

    Given that we can never 100% keep the Law (that is, we can never be sinless), Messiah gave us a way to still be holy, even in our sinful state.

    That does not mean, however, that we ought to continue sinning (that is, breaking the Law). Paul anticipated this faulty argument by saying,

    What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!

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  16. Thanks, Judah. I also believe thata if we followed health and dietary laws, we'd be better off. It really is a cultural thing too though and for a Gentile believer, it is hard to completely change cultures. Especially, when there are so few Jewish people as in the area in which I live. There is one small Synagogue within a radius of probably four hundred miles. I have only personally known one practicing Jew and she was pretty liberal. She made lots of good food though!

    You know, this is such an old discussion. One that has been going on since Bible times and there is still so much confusion surrounding it. I think for those of us outside the Jewish faith and culture, it takes a long time to develop a Biblical world view and really have a contextual understanding of scripture. We all tend to read it and twist it to our own culture. I try to understand the cultural context but I know I can never understand it in the same way as someone who lives it. Anyway, I'm glad that Jesus has it all under control and that in Him we can be made holy apart from the Law. When I read them there is nothing there that I don't want to do. Sometimes, I'm still too carnal to accomplish the Law but it amazes me how Jesus has changed this reprobates heart to a heart that desires what God desires. That is truly amazing Grace!

    I'm really going to try and rest tomorrow.:0) You have a happy Sabbath too. God bless!

    Pam

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  17. Judah, What is funny is how some will bring up what Paul said over something Yeshua told us and instructed us to follow. If I say Yeshua said to keep the Commandments, most fire back and say well Paul says etc. Paul is not G-d, not Messiah etc. and I do not have to believe anything Paul reportedly said. I will take and trust what Yeshua said over Paul any day of the week. Yeshua talked about eternal life and I will take what He said over what Paul says. Do we trust in Yeshua or Paul? I trust YHVH and that is what Yeshua told us to do in John 5:24.

    Blessings

    Rick

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  18. Hey Rick,

    Long time no see!

    Yes, indeed, the Christian view point of Scripture is like an upside-down triangle, with Paul at the bottom as the base foundation, then the gospels on that, then the prophets, then the Torah.

    This is completely at odds with the correct view point, with Torah as the base foundation, the prophets built on that, then the gospels, then finally Paul.

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