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Islamic Domination: coming soon to a Jewish state near you!

A blogger friend, Lutheran missionary Chris Halverson, blogged about Iranian President Mahmoud Amadinejad's public letter to U.S. President Bush. Here is the unofficial English translation of the letter. I posted my take on the letter over at Chris' blog, but I'd like to post here as well as this isn't some airy political problem; what's potentially at stake is the existence of Israel, the preservation of the Jewish people, and the future of the West. Radical Islam has radical ideas for the world, ones that adversely affect Israel and the West.

But I'm not here to condemn this guy to hell. That's not my call. Instead, the purpose here is to look at his views critically and figure out what he's talking about and why. Also, I'd like to discuss the 'who cares' factor; why is this even worth talking about? That's the purpose of this post.

So, after reading the letter, it would seem Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a harmless Christian peacenik. Who would've thought?! If one wasn't familiar with this man, you might think,

"Boy! What a great guy, asking for peace, chiding the President for being un-Christ-like, outlining the west's wrongs in Iraq and Guatanomo. This guy's all for peace!"

Heck, he even went to the trouble of saying "peace be upon him" when talking about Jesus. Gee, what a good young fellow, why don't we invite him to our local church?

I think I've grown a new awe of Mr. Ahmadinejad. Until recently I thought he was just another Islamic extremist; now I find out he is much more than that: By pointing out the good teachings of Jesus Christ (whom Mr. Ahamdinejad, of course, rejects) and outlining Bush's deviance from those teachings, Mr. Ahmadinejad cleverly cloaks his own evil ideology. This strategy is reminiscent of something Paul, an early follower of Jesus, wrote in his letter to Rome:

"If you--as a religious person--think you're on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgmental criticism of others is a well-known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and holds you to what you've done."


This is precisely the tactic Mr. Ahmadinejad is pulling; he's doing this in order to direct attention away from his own evil ideology.

What is so wrong about Mr. Ahmadinejad's ideology? Let's count the ways.

He calls for the destruction of Israel and the extermination of the Jewish people in Israel. That alone should point our minds towards treating this man's monologues as one would treat Adolf Hitler's. I don't say that lightly or jokingly; this man is calling for the destruction of a people and a nation by violent means. If history has taught Jews anything, it's to take threats of extermination very seriously. Wake up folks, this is serious, potentially molding our entire century, just as WW2 did the 20th.

The President of Iran also is attempting to obtain nuclear materials. He claims, of course, it's for energy reasons. Let's see: call for Israel's destruction, then obtain nuclear materials. Hmmm...I wonder what he could be planning...oh, what could it be? Hmm, it stumps me at the moment. Maybe it'll come back to me later.

To further his goal of destroying Israel, he's modified Shi'ite Islamic theology: according to the new theology, 12th Imam, the Mahdi, the last known descendant of Islam's founder Mohammed, the 12th Imam by the name of Abul-Qassem Mohammad who disappeared in the 900s, will return if Islam hastens to create war and chaos on the earth. In nearly all of his speeches since his taking of power, including his September address to the U.N. General Assembly, the President of Iran has spoken constantly of hastening the return of the 12th Imam by means of creating violence against Israel and the West, thus paving the way for the 12th Imam, the Mahdi.

What Mr. Ahmadinejad's letter really is, folks, is a way to temporarily pacify the West, lowering the chances of western intervention in the wild things bubbling over in Iran. Things are getting so hot, they're almost hitting the boiling point; soon things will start to drip down the pot and leak over to others. When that happens, Iran will make its move and hit Israel with a nuclear weapon. Watch for it and remember it was predicted.

To put the icing on the cake, Mr. Ahmadinejad doesn't buy into the Jewish and Zionist lies, you know those 'lies' that 6 million Jews -- 1/3 of the entire Jewish race -- died in the Nazi Holocaust. Yeah, all those stories you hear about, those books you read, all those tales by Jewish survivors, that footage of Nazi concentration camps, the heaps and piles of dead Jewish prisoners, the mass graves, the physical markings on the survivors, the gas chambers, the bone-littered furnaces where Jews were burned to death en masse: all of it is a big lie by the Zionists. Yeah. The Iranian President slyly puts the reader at ease, saying of the Jewish Holocaust, "Suppose, for a moment, that it is true..." Suppose? The whole world knows it's true; there is no supposition needed! Ask Germany, for God's sake, ask the people that did it if it's true.

And that's not even the best part! The friendly Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claims students from around the world are submitting to him honest and serious papers claiming the state of Israel has never existed until now. Reading that, I'm not sure whether to bust out in comedic laugh or burn in frustration at his ignorance; it is a historical and archeological fact -- it is not debated in the least among the scientific community -- whether Israel existed at some point in history. It's undisputed among any serious thinker that Israel has existed; this view is only espoused by blind zealots looking to further their cause of Israel's ultimate destruction.

I can see his point of view now. Yes, I see it. If you accept all the anti-Jewish nonsense and burn in zeal for your own religion, and you've modified your theology so that the destruction of the Jews is an absolute requirement for Islamic justice, and their very existence is a thorn in your side, and you see Jews as the oppressors of Palestinians, then yes, he must be right; we should all hate the Jews again. We ought to enact a final solution: complete erasure of the Jewish race.

Sound familiar? It should; this is blatant Nazi talk. And people are buying it. Wake up! this man is espousing Nazi-like views! He is a powerful person in a powerful country, espousing views that would make Hitler red in the face.

What makes this situation worse is that many people of Iran are do not agree with the radicals in power. There is a movement of moderates in the country that opposes the state censorship, the restriction of religion, the oppression of the opposing views, religions, the politics of the ruling zealots.

But I wonder; where are the Muslim moderates? Where are the Muslim folks condemning wholeheartedly the views of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? How can someone say Islam is peaceful when virtually all of the Islamic nations support such views? That is one thing I don't get; Muslims will always tell me their religion is peaceful; to any Muslim readers, how does one reconcile Ahmadinejad's views with a peaceful Islam?

I'm not so callous to think my religion has done better; men have done horrible things in the name of Christ to the Jewish people over the centuries, and only recently have we come to realize our error. If only Islam could prevent history from repeating itself; if only the Islamic moderates could speak out against this man, Islam wouldn't need to go through more war and death to learn the same lesson Christianity has: the Jews are here for a divine reason, and though they don't agree with our theology, it by no means gives us a right to kill them over it.

38 comments:

  1. Yes, this man is a nutjob. So why aren't we doing something about it?

    Why don't we put more troops in Iraq to scare him a little? Why hasn't Israel done something?

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  2. Ahmed Nijad is an Asian version of G.W.BUSH that is,both are not liked by masses and both love be in headlines all the time.

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  3. Saima,

    You are mocking at Christians every time you claim that Jesus Christ is not God, aren't you? If I told you that I do not believe in Mohammed being a prophet, and that he was masquerading as one, I would be considered blashpemous, right?

    So, what is the point? To live together peacefully, one has to respect the views of each other.

    Calling for the death of Jews and destruction of Israel is somehow lesser a crime than making some harmless (what physical damage would it have caused, if Muslims made their protests peacefully) caricatures about the Prophet.

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  4. First, thanks guys for visiting and taking the time to comment.

    Adnan, hey my friend, glad to hear from you again! I've heard some people say that Bush is the western version of Mr. Ahmadinejad, but I think that's unfounded: has Bush called for the destruction of an entire race of people? Does he publicly talk about hastening judgement on heathens by means of violence? Does he claim the Holocaust is a lie? Honestly, no matter how much one may hate President Bush, you must concede his perceived evil doesn't even compare to Mr. Ahmadinejad's.

    Saima, you said, "Let me assure you each muslim believes in jesus christ...we believe in bible and turah". I ask you, are you sure about that? The Jewish Scripture (which is included in Christian Scripture) says that the land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people. Do you concede that? (which would mean Palestinians should not live in Israel). If you believe in Torah (part of Jewish Scripture), then you would also need to concede that the God blessed Israel and not Ishmael (thus, Jews become the insiders and Arabs the outsiders).

    You said you believe in Jesus and the (assumedly Christian) Bible. Do you really believe that? Jesus said that he is the only Son of God - do you concede? Jesus claimed no one comes to God but through him. Jesus claimed that he is the Messiah, the annointed one prophesied to come long ago; more than a prophet, but spiritual king who will return to reign as physical king of all the world in a reign of peace. Do you believe that too?

    What you really mean, saima, is that you believe Jesus to be just another prophet. That's nice, but that's not at all what he was -- we believe him to be the one he claimed to be: the Messiah! The annointed son of God who died so that the world can be forgiven of our sins and all the evil things we do. By his death, the world gained life; talk about the love of God! That's what Jesus did; that's why he's much more than a prophet.

    Saima, what do you think is the cause of the violence in the Middle East? Consider this for a minute: do you think that maybe it's because of the constant wave of suicide bombings that hit Israeli markets, pizza parlors, and hotels? Or is all that just lies from the press, and Israel just likes killing Arabs for no particular reason?

    Thomas George, thanks for visiting from CP, glad to seen another CPian visit! :) I appreciate your level-headed comments.

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  5. Hi Judah,

    I was planning to just read this and move on. But, could not resist posting. This could easily turn into an extension of the SoapBox :)

    Saima,

    Did anyone dispute that Christians can live peacefully in Pakistan? But, from your statements, it seems that you are a bit surprised about that.

    Since the issue here is with the USA, I will talk about that country. There are many Muslims living in the USA as well. They are also not harassed, and live peacefully . . . with an important difference. They can criticize Christianity, Judaism, Israel, Bush, whoever they please.

    But, if a Muslim, Taslima Nasrin, in Bangladesh writes that women are marginalized, and Islamic laws need to be changed, she is charged with blasphemy, and a fatwa taken out on her.

    So, my question is: Can Muslims live with criticism of the flaws of their religion as it is practised? It seems that they can't live with criticism from Muslims themselves. Can I visit Pakistan and not be prosecuted, if I said that Koran and Shariat law marginalizes women, and needs to be changed in the interest of humanity?

    Also, you consider Jesus a prophet, not God. . . . and I do NOT care whether Muslims to believe in Jesus either. We are just asking for freedom of speech, and that Islam not be a banned subject for debate. If instead of the Prophet cartoons, it was Christ cartoons, and even if it was published in Pakistan, I guarantee that there would not have been much protest.

    Still, you have not made it clear whether you agree with the Iranian president or not. Also, do you agree with the fatwa for the death of Taslima Nasrin?

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  6. has Bush called for the destruction of an entire race of people?

    Wiping off israel doesnt remove jews from face of earth.I would go one step ahead and say that bush is more moron than Nijad.Nijad is just talking while bush even acted upon this(Iraq and afghanistan) and this is something which cant be refuted.I dont believe in theory of WMD or liberation/saddam.Even old fairy tales sounds more realistic than bush's speeches.

    Regarding cartoons,its sad that riots happened in Pakistan and few other countries too and believe me we muslims condemn such violent.These were not representing even 0.1% population of Muslim community.Black sheeps are everywhere thats all I can say.

    Regarding the issue that cartoons should be allowed or not.I would like to your blog readers to read the 2nd law of ten commandment.


    Thou shall have no other gods besides Me... Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above...


    So we also believe in teachings of Moses like you guys but I wonder whether these commandments are remembered by your community.

    Cartoons and freedom,well if J&P was really preaching about freedom of speech,why dont they dare to post cartoons about anti semitism?

    my friend I am well aware of such hypocricy and I already knew that holocaust issue or anti semitsm issue wont be accepted positively by outer world:>

    p.s:I dont wana comment abou your debat with saima because you already know about my thinking about israel existance that is I dont accept israel as a state and yet i am willing to know concrete reasons for such state.

    OT:why jews hate Jesus?

    hope ur family is doing fine specially your cute son.I hope you would not send him in army.Will you?:>

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  7. Thomas can you point out the exact location of pakistan on map?I doubt so becasue I just read you ultra ignorant statmnet about Pakistan.Are you an American?(Its a slang by the way).You think that Pakistan is a remote village where no outsider visit.Brush up your knowledge so that other enjoys while arguing with you rather ignoring you.

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  8. I want to, ahum...., kindly share that I disagree with almost everyone here.
    1st let me be clear, so there would be no ambiguity, yeah, I'm very ignorant of whatever you want and you could dismiss my whole speach on that basis if you like. Don't bother me! :-)

    Now, There are sensitive middle easterner here which I simply disagree with on the basis that if they like their country good on them, it's not my point. And No, I would not like to live in it by the way.

    Now, what about the Blogger: Judah? (Funny name by the way).

    I disagree on the basis he is very Bush like: "I don't like Guy, let's make war". At least that's the impression he gave.

    Now he is right, all middle east is full of war monger, civil liberty is ... a little known concept (particularly if you are a woman), etc...
    Of course you should be warry of nuclear power in the hand of some blood thirsty fanatic.

    But I'm against the warring solution out of the box.
    1st if the other (China, Russia, etc..) are against it, perhaps your judgment has been tainted by fear and bias?
    Perhaps you, too, have become a war monger who doesn't contribute, in fact, to the world peace?

    Of course you should be warry, but in an ideal world war is the last bad solution when you have no choice.
    So let's stress a bit and keep applying growing diplomatic pressure about our rightfull fear: "we don't want more nuclear weapon" (By the way isnt't it unfair that America, US, India and some other have it? but other should not? okay, forget about that for now, but keep it in mind)

    Beside isn't it a good thing for gloabal warming that more and more country goes to nuclear energy?

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  9. So many good comments, great conversation.

    Adnan, you said, "I dont accept israel as a state and yet i am willing to know concrete reasons for such state."

    I will offer some concrete reasons: it is the only home of Jews. Unlike Arabs, there is only 1 home for Jews.

    Israel has been the historic homeland of Israelites (now modern Jews) going back at least 2500 some years.

    Jerusalem is the holiest city in the Jewish religion. Imagine the outrage if Jews claimed Mecca as their own land!

    Of course, some Muslims will say they believe in the Torah (such as saima just said), in which case, the land of Israel clearly belongs to the Jewish people.

    What do you think of those reasons, Adnan? I'd be interested to hear your answers.

    You asked if I'd send my son into war. I dislike war. I'm not a pacifist; there are clearly times when war is necessary; however many of the wars today do not fall into the category of "necessary".

    I think war is generally quite anti-Jesus, you know? I say this because Jesus said of all the Torah (the Law in Jewish Scripture), the 2 most important commands are to love God and love others. War seems to go against that, generally speaking. (Again, there are very specific cases in which war is warranted.) So I'd say, I'll never force my son to join any war. And myself -- I'd only join a war myself if Israel were attacked and needed more recruits.

    Adnan, with regards to the cartoons, let me first say that I talked to my friends and my family about the cartoons when they happened. You know what? They were wrong. Jesus wouldn't do anything like that, it was very unlike Jesus, so I condemn them. Likewise, the Islamic reaction around the world to the cartoons was no better (even worse) since lives were lost, which is really sad; truely ungodly. I hope you agree. It was bad all around, it's a shame the cartoons even happened.

    Why do Jews hate Jesus? Very good question, I'd love to write a few posts on the subject. For now, let me point you to something Paul, a Jew and an early follower of Jesus, wrote in the New Testament. He was writing a letter to some non-Jewish people try to explain it, here's what he said,

    I want to lay all this out on the table as clearly as I can, friends. This is complicated. It would be easy to misinterpret what's going on and arrogantly assume that you non-Jews are royalty and the Jews are just rabble, out on their ears for good. But that's not it at all. This hardness on the part of insider Israel toward God is temporary. Its effect is to open things up to all the outsiders so that we end up with a full house. Before it's all over, there will be a complete Israel. As it is written,

    A champion will stride down from the mountain of Zion;

    he'll clean house in Jacob.

    And this is my commitment to my people:

    removal of their sins.



    From your point of view as you hear and embrace the good news of the Messiah, it looks like the Jews are God's enemies. But look at it from the long-range perspective of God's overall purpose, they remain God's oldest friends. God's gifts and God's call are under full warranty--never canceled, never rescinded.

    There was a time not so long ago when you non-Jews were on the outs with God. But then the Jews slammed the door on him and things opened up for you. Now they are on the outs. But with the door held wide open for you, they have a way back in. In one way or another, God makes sure that we all experience what it means to be outside so that he can personally open the door and welcome us back in.


    I hope that at least piques your interest into why the Jews largely hate Jesus the Messiah: there is a sophisticated, divine reason behind it, and that reason is by their rejection, the whole world comes to worship the God of Abraham through the Messiah. And if their rejection brings life to the world through the Messiah, one can only imagine the wonderful, life-giving blessings their acceptance of Jesus will bring.

    anonymous, I generally agree with you. Judah...a funny name eh? Yeah, you don't meet too many "Judah's". :)

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  10. @anon-2 questions from you,who is *bush-like*?if you mean the guy judah?no i dont think so,i have been reading him for more 6 months and i didnt find him war lover.

    Judah is funny name?i wonder what is your belief?Judah is religious name for him and by the way for muslims as well.Judah is english translation of hebrew word *yehudah* and *Yehud* is used in arabic and in my language *urdu* for JEWS too.


    @Judah:i have heard these lines lots of times.Let me tell u what ia m told by jews.


    our own land and we used to live thousands years back


    Palestine was nt your land,if you remember Moses invade the same land with his followers long time back when he left Egypt?? after battle with pharoh,so technically you go wrong here.your point you have been living thee for long time.Well if this is the theory then We(muslims) should claim spain where we ruled 700 years and start killing spanish for grabbing our land back?

    we bought land from arabs,we paid them more than the worth

    well again,if this is the case.If a muslim commmunity have been living in some region of newYork for long time and they start buying property over there,is it legitimate to create a seprate *country*?

    let me know what you think about it


    reagarding messiah,ignore my ignorance ,I am kinda unclear but what I read in OT(i dont remember the verse).OT prophecised about some *person* to save the region.Who is that person?are jews still waiting for them?will he ever come?According to muslims,that man was Muhammad,what would you say against it?That man cant be zacriah or Elias ,you also aware of it:)

    u might hate war but ppl in israel are asked to send in army.

    friend i am STILL unclear abouy your location;/

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  11. I said Judah was Bush like because he seemed to imply may be we should wage a little war against Iran.
    To which I reply, let's just be worry for now, shall we?
    But probably I misunderstood him? Let's just say I was say: Let's not make another war (there are enough of them already!)

    I found Judah funny for a christian guy as this is the name of a the guy who betrayed Jesus to the roman and where I came from this is sometimes used as nickname for untrustworthy person... ;-)

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  12. saima ignore this Thomas,he has not passed 5th grade yet.So dont waste your time and bandwidth(give it to me).

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  13. The name "Judah" is something I'm not ashamed about. It means "Praise" and I love to praise God.

    Yes, a "Judah" (better known as "Judas") betrayed Jesus. But also, a book of the New Testament is named after a Judah ("Jude"). More importantly, Judah is the name of the predominate tribe of Israel that make up modern Jews today. It is the name of a rebel who won Israel independence from foreign rule (Judah Maccabee). It is also the tribe Jesus decended from. Being a Jew that believes in Jesus, I find the name staunchly Jewish and decidedly Godly. I love that about my name and am not ashamed of it in the least. :-)

    Let me make one thing very clear. Let me lay this out on the table as clearly as I can. :) I don't want a war with Iran. As I said in the previous post, war falls from from the tree of Jesus' teachings. That said, not all wars are immoral and some are necessary. I don't believe a war with Iran is necessary at this point in time. If they do launch a nuclear missile at Israel, and I believe they will soon, then war (one of defense, for God's sake) would be justified.

    Someone asked why it's OK for the UK, the US, Russia, and China to have nuclear missiles but not Iran. It's quite simple: the founding members on the security council of the UN are allowed to have them, everyone else is not. You might ask, "what about Israel, don't they have nuclear weapons?" Yes, they do. But with that comes the recognition that Israel is the only nation on the planet surrounded entirely by 23 hostile nations. They are also one of the few democratic bastions in the sea of Islamic theocracies; a general exception is made in the case of Israel for these reasons.

    You guys have accused Thomas George of being an ignorant American who knows nothing about Pakistan and the Middle East. Maybe it will surprise you to know that Thomas lives in India? :) IIRC, he lives in the same hometown as Nishant Sivakumar from CodeProject. Heheh.

    Adnan, you asked, "are women really that well off in the western countires....are they really free to live with dignity without being a certain size or shape". My answer: I can't speak for all western nations, but for the United States, women and men have equal rights: women can vote, work in whatever profession they choose, wear whatever they please, AFAIK, they can do anything men can. That's more than can be said for most Islamic theocracies, wouldn't you agree? My understanding is that in most Islamic theocracies (Iran, Afghanistan, Syria come to mind), women cannot wear whatever they please (many must wear burkas, for example), they cannot vote, they cannot hold jobs; in some places, women cannot even walk outside by themselves! What's your take on that, Adnan? Do you sense some Islamic countries might have it wrong when it comes to human rights?

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  14. Adnan, you said, "OT prophecised about some *person* to save the region"

    You said for Islam, that person is Muhammad.

    There are many bits in the OT regarding a person to save Israel (and the world). For example, look at Isaiah 53, where it's prophesied by the Prophet Isaiah,

    Who believes what we've heard and seen?

    Who would have thought GOD's saving power would look like this?

    This servant grew up before God--a scrawny seedling,

    a scrubby plant in a parched field.

    There was nothing attractive about him,

    nothing to cause us to take a second look.

    He was looked down on and passed over,

    a man who suffered, who knew pain firsthand.

    One look at him and people turned away.

    We looked down on him, thought he was scum.

    But the fact is, it was our pains he carried--

    our disfigurements, all the things wrong with us.

    We thought he brought it on himself,

    that God was punishing him for his own failures.

    But it was our sins that did that to him,

    that ripped and tore and crushed him--our sins!

    He took the punishment, and that made us whole.

    Through his bruises we get healed.

    We're all like sheep who've wandered off and gotten lost.

    We've all done our own thing, gone our own way.

    And GOD has piled all our sins, everything we've done wrong,

    on him, on him.

    He was beaten, he was tortured,

    but he didn't say a word.

    Like a lamb taken to be slaughtered

    and like a sheep being sheared,

    he took it all in silence.

    Justice miscarried, and he was led off--

    and did anyone really know what was happening?

    He died without a thought for his own welfare,

    beaten bloody for the sins of my people.

    They buried him with the wicked,

    threw him in a grave with a rich man,

    Even though he'd never hurt a soul

    or said one word that wasn't true.

    Still, it's what GOD had in mind all along,

    to crush him with pain.

    The plan was that he give himself as an offering for sin

    so that he'd see life come from it--life, life, and more life.

    And GOD's plan will deeply prosper through him.

    Out of that terrible travail of soul,

    he'll see that it's worth it and be glad he did it.

    Through what he experienced, my righteous one, my servant,

    will make many "righteous ones,"

    as he himself carries the burden of their sins.

    Therefore I'll reward him extravagantly--

    the best of everything, the highest honors--

    Because he looked death in the face and didn't flinch,

    because he embraced the company of the lowest.

    He took on his own shoulders the sin of the many,

    he took up the cause of all the black sheep.


    Adnan, do you see why I believe Jesus was this man spoken of in the OT? Jesus was beaten, tortured, killed for the sins of the world. He took on the world's sins so that we can live; in essence, by his death, the whole world gained life! That's the Messiah, that's why I believe in him, that's why I talk about him and about how much I love him. Because despite all the bad things I do, I am forgiven of it all because he carries my sin, he died even though I am the one deserving death.

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  15. Hi Juddah, as Saima said, all Muslims belive that GOD sends Jesus as a prophet, and also Moses, BUT we dont believe that your bible is the same as the one ALLAh gave to Jesus, and the present taurah also have been changed, A very little proof of this that Christians have versions of their Holy book while there was one that was given to Jesus, But Mulims whatever there are doing or they are whorshiping, they have only ONE HOLY BOOK (Qoraan),and they beleive in all other relegions (Christianity, Judasism), while both of those relegions don't believe in Islam, also who have read the Islamic History will know how the Muslims was with every other relegion, (I am not talking about Muslims now they are not like what GOD ordered to be), I mean Muslims like Salah El-Din, Omar El-Khattab, I advice you read about their history to know more about the islamic people (That are in the Islamic manners already), not the current Muslims, whatever they does, and also the first thing that will disallow you from changing your openion that those Muslims I am talking about doesn't really existing right now :D.
    I really hope they do.
    Thanks.

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  16. Hi Moustafa, thanks for visiting.

    You say, like saima, that Muslims "believe in all other religions (Christianity, Judaism)". I guess I don't understand, maybe you can explain it to me. Do you believe in Christianity, really? Jesus said he was God. Do you believe that? If not, how can you said you believe in Christianity?

    You also assert that we have different versions of the Bible. I'm not sure what you're talking about...we have different translations (from Hebrew to English, for example) but that is no different than English Qur'an. Or maybe you're talking about the differences between Protestant and Catholic? Well, that's much like the differences between Sunni and Shi'a, except that the percentage of Christians is more evenly divided that the percentage of Muslims (where some 85% are Sunni).

    Anyhow, I'm curious to know what you think of Mr. Ahmadinejad's opinions on Israel, nuclear materials, the Holocaust, and the 12th Imam. Is he right on all accounts, in your view? Is he right in encouraging violence against Israel and the West?

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  17. judah i didnt make any comment about *women* ?:>


    Yes, they do. But with that comes the recognition that Israel is the only nation on the planet surrounded entirely by 23 hostile nations


    what if Iran and other countries around israel say similar?u said 23,can you name ALL of them with proof that they have nukes?you might name Pakistan but what about India?according to your theory of founding members,both states dont deserve to have nukes.Arab states consider israel-the single state more harmful for them.So both(israel vs rest of states in region) have got valid points.Israel is a hostile state too and you cant say that your presidents never wished something bad for muslims.

    Regarding OT stuff,if you check my very first or 2nd message on your blog,i quoted a verse about Moses,when moses was told by God about upcomming *prophet* and Jesus never fulfilled criteria,it was not even Elias,Jhon and zacriah,I would need to dig my bible archive for specific verse but if you got me,you would have understood which verses I am talking about.

    About thomas,if hes an Indian then he deserves to be cursed more than anyone else on face of earth because lots of Indians visit pakistan each year and many visited in last cricket series in Pakistan and none of them complaint something similar.

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  18. Islam belives in orginal teachings of Jesus ,not the current and screwed one.Jesus never claimed to be God,the specific verse is taken *literally* which is not something sensible at all.The term God is used for *super power* as well and we use this term many times in our daily life routies like hes God of maths or shes a goddess,it doesnt reflect the particular person is a typical *GOD* mntioned in holy books.

    Jesus always saw towards *father*,even when he was being crucified he was yelling Father.So it shows that Jesus was not powerful at all.

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  19. ok. Adnan and Saima,

    Let me start with who I am. I live in Trivandrum, Kerala, India. I am a Roman Catholic by birth. I have no interest in Islam, if they do not insist that we all respect their God. I have no problems with Jews either; but I don't specifically have any agenda supporting Jews. Even though I am a Catholic, I am quite critical about the church establishment -- and guess what, there have been no repurcussions yet.

    Let me explain why I have reservations about Islam. Whenever there is a discussion about problems with Islam as practised today, you guys point to what Islam should be. I am not interested in what Islam should be at all. I am interested in what it is at present.

    So, how do I see the present.
    1. I accept that Palestinians have a right to their country. I also believe that the Europeans did a bad job with taking Arab states and Palestinians into confidence about the creation of Israel. I also believe that since Israel was attacked by the Arab states to capture the land, it needs some defence. I don't agree with many policies of Israel like building settlements etc. But, instead of using peaceful means to achieve their objectives, a group of Palestinians started using violence. They tried to terrorize the world into accepting their demands. Although many of the demands are just, the methods used have been bad, and I cannot endorse or support those measures (not that Hamas and other Islamic groups behind this strategy need my endorsement :) ) So issue #1: Using Islam to mobilize people to do terror activities, and the clerics in the Middle East fanning the flame in most cases than extinguish it.

    2. Women's rights: In India, personal law is based on religion. So, Muslims get to use Shariat law. In this law, a man can say Talaq three times, and get divorced, where as a woman cannot. It has been quite difficult for a woman who is a victim of this to get financial support from her previous husband. Please note that the Muslim law in India is set by the Muslim community themselves.

    3. Intolerance: This is common to all religions. I do not understand the need for common people to defend God -- as if he is not capable of doing it himself? I don't know what caused a Muslim cleric to issue a death sentence against Taslima Nasreen.

    Now I did not say anything ever about Pakistan. I accept the rosy picture painted about every day life in Pakistan. I am ignorant about life in Pakistan, and I am not going to judge it based on what I see in other places. So please, Pakistan is not an issue here.


    =====
    Questions:
    1. When Taslima Nasreen criticized Islamic laws, why were the establishment after her life? Apparently being a Muslim, she must know something about the religion. Why was Salman Rushdie also deserving of death for writing a fiction? I guess he must also have been quite knowledgeable about Islam.
    2. Without going into any other aspect, do you support the heated speeches by the Iranian president and other Iranian leaders calling for the destruction of Israel?
    3. Do you deny that Muslims (including the ones in Pakistan and India) have sympathized with the Islamic terrorists just because they bomb Israel and the USA?
    4. You said that the Christian view of Jesus is wrong, and the Islamic one right. I am not going into why this is, or anything -- but, are you not hurting Christian sentiments by doing that? Does the Roman Catholic church have the right to issue an edict for death against all Muslims doing this? Considering that Islam was formed 6 centuries after Christ, do you think I can now form a new religion (regardless of what following I get :) ) and make a new interpretation for the Koran, and not offend you?

    Please answer these questions. Consider it my education. If you cannot directly answer these questions, I guess there is no point discussing further.

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  20. Adnan, what evidence do you give that the current belief in Jesus is "screwed"? Jesus said many times throughout the NT that he is the son of God, part of God, and no one comes to the Father buth through him. Hard to interpret that allegorically! You see, Islam was not invented until 600 some years after Jesus, and some 2000 years after Moses -- what authority do you have to say both the teachings of Jesus and Moses are flawed and changed? What evidence? There is none, my friend. The explanation behind such a belief is simple: people who don't want to believe in the real Jesus will say Jesus is not the man he claimed to be. This is precisely what some people have done, and now all of Islam is led astray in that.

    You say that Jesus had no power because he died on the cross. Do you know the Romans that put him to death mocked him in the same way? They mockingly said to him, "Jesus, if you're the son of God, call angels down to save you!"

    You, like the Romans of that time, don't quite understand *why* Jesus died. It was the whole plan of his coming! The whole reason for the existence of the Messiah: he would fulfill the Torah (Law of Moses) by becoming the final sacrifice, the final shedding of blood so that the world could be forgiven of its sins. If Jesus hadn't died for the sin of the world, he would not have been Messiah.

    While you can tip-toe around Jesus and accepts only the bits you like from the New Testament (only the ones that don't conflict with your theology), the truth is in plain view: Jesus is the Messiah, and the Messiah is God! Yes!

    Only Messiah could take the millions of godless people in the world and turn them to the God of Abraham--only Messiah could do that, and look, he has: where before the gentiles, the people outside of Israel, were worshipping many gods, all of them false, now we've turned to the God of Abraham, the one true God, through the Messiah! That's really awesome if you think about it. Only Messiah could complete the Law of Moses. Only the blood of the Messiah can atone for the evil things you and I do daily; without it, we'd be under the penalty of the Law of Moses, most of us would deserve death for our immoral and evil daily practices.

    All this is far more than a prophet could; for me, there is no question remaining whether Jesus is God in a literal sense. Instead, I'm sure of it: He is Messiah. And praise God for that! :)

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  21. Judah i think you ask your jews ppl that what's their issue with NT?Am i not right that jews dont believe in NT?

    why i said Bible got screwed,there ae many instances.I would just quote one here


    And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.I (Chronicles 21:1)



    And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say: "Go, number Israel and Judah."
    II Samuel 24:1


    Satan had tempted David to go against Israel and Godforbid satan is lord of david?

    @Thomas:Its good to educate others but you are one of those who already madeup mind against some person or community and never BOTHER to seek truth.Its not that you dont have resources,its just you are not willing to.For instance you discuss abou Talaq(divorce) and cameup with your theory that Islam doesnt give facility to woman to give divorce and it was based on your country practise,while in real Islam gives 100% right to women to get seprated from Men.You wont believe me coz u have been observing something which happens in your world.Its not necssary that what one practise daily is actually compatible with religion itself.For instancr Satti in India.

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  22. hey Judah i am at office and busy in some stuff i will reply ur last post later in details.

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  23. You, like the Romans of that time, don't quite understand *why* Jesus died


    Oh we muslims dont believe Jesus was actually died.Neither I found any proof at all.I need to search archieve for specific verse.Al i can say right now that JEsus appear to some lady after 3 days and his friends met him too.

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  24. As I see it, the 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles differences are merely 2 complementary accounts of the same story. See this post for a short and quick explanation.

    Adnan, like you, I also believe that Jesus appeared to several folks after his death. Jesus was raised from the dead on the 3rd day, just as it was prophesied, appearing to his followers and many others (see Matthew 28).

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  25. saima, most likely you did not enter the captcha word verification correctly when going to post. (I do not delete any blog comments).

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  26. Hi, Ofcourse I believe in Christianity, But I believe in it as the Qoraan said not as the current Christians said, That is what you have to realise.
    Yes I was talking about the differences between the Protestant and Catholic, But they have differences in their bible, So that means they have two Jesuss,
    We have differences between Sunna and Shi'a, yes we have , but NOT in the Qoraan, Its just diffrences on how they manage their lives and their whorship, but we don't have two Qoraans as well.


    About Ahmadi :
    1: Talking about Israel, Yes Isreal and the Israelians deserve what he had said. Put yourself in his place, if some body stole your most big church, wouldn't you and all of the christians fight him to take it back, and don't say that you will talk and bring it back by peace, (What was taken by the Sword, never returns wothout it).

    2:Nuclear, IS it fair to a very small country (Stolen from its real residents) to have a punch of nuclear waepons, -and that is good in the point of view of the west- and a big one everyone is fighting it to NOT have that weapon -only for peacful things- , just because this country is a Muslim country ?

    3:Encouraging violance againest Israel and west, There is no differnce between Israel and the west, He in the first said that Isreal must be erased, yes he said that and that is because they are taking a Muslims' land, Once he said that, every American and western country belamed him and said he wants a war, Is it fair to defend Israel in all things they do right or wrong dosn't matter ?

    You have to ask yourself and put yourself in the place of any one is being fighted not for any thing except saying "I am a Muslim man".

    I -myself- am a Muslim, and I am very proud of it, as every one of you is proud of his relegion, and at last I want to say to you something, you and every one here are saying that the Muslims is offending the Jews and the Christians for no reason,
    I live in Egypt, My neighbor is a Christian man, and we have also many Jews at our country, did anyone of them (Those who are living in the country) said once that Muslims treat them bad ?
    You are really a victim of the newspapers and Tv and all communications in your country, you don't see anything except what they want, I want you to talk to an arabian christian or come to any arabic country to see what really arabs and specially Muslims are.

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  27. Moustafa, my friend, what makes you think we have 2 Jesus'? :-) Both Protestant and Catholics believe in the same Jesus, I assure you. :-)

    I don't think all Muslims treat Christians and Jews badly. A very vocal section of your religion, however, does. In fact, this same section of your religion calls for the complete erasure of a nation--Israel--and its people by violent means. Even you seem to agree with this view.

    I see quite clearly what this section of Islam wants: complete erasure of Israel. I also see what Israel wants: peace. I choose the latter.

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  28. Ok judah,i still have not got chance to go thru ur previous post but your statment that Jesus' death was planned,here i quote a biblic verse:


    Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but shine, be done."
    Luke 22:42

    and let me tell you that this was cup of death and jesus NEVER EVER wanted to be dead,unlike theories given by bible followers to outerworld.
    See another verse from Hebrew:


    In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, 5 and he was heard because of his reverence.
    Hebrew 5:7(Ref:http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews5.htm)

    now lets read Matthew 7:7


    Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened


    Now if you read above quoted verses from Hebrew and then this one,you will find a relation between them.

    In above mentioned verses,its proved that jesus never wanted to die thus He saw towards His Lord.The verse from Mathew gives good news to Jesus that whatever He will ask,he will be given.When jesus was in trouble,He asked life and he was given it.Now do you think Lord of yours David,Solomon or Jesus is so contradictry that he cant keep promises?

    another thing is that if Jesus was really killed,His blood should clot ,am I right,Jesus was a human too and blood run in His body,but Jhon states:


    But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.John 19:34

    let me windup this chapter by quoting these verses when a parisees came to Jesus(Matthew 12:35) and ask Him signs of His true mission,Jesus replied:


    He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    Matthew:12:39-40

    So Jonas were alive ,Jesus prophecising that He would be alive too after living in heart of earth.

    When Jesus himself saying that he was not died and its in bibl,why do u guys insist that he was died.For me its all politics played by bible to make it a *death scene* and they made changes in bible accordingly.




    I see quite clearly what this section of Islam wants: complete erasure of Israel. I also see what Israel wants: peace. I choose the latter.


    Now this is something intresting,I already answered you why Israel is a illegetimate state and you coudint come up with your replies.I am intresting to know that How israel wants peace?how would you proof that ,by keeping infinite numbers of undisclosed nuclear weapons,hitting missiles on neighbor countries nuclear arsenals,promoting zionism by everymean and preseting it as a Judaism which is not accept by these guys(nkusa.org).How would you call israel is a peaceful state,where IDF is busy to kill muslims every day?

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  29. Adnan, you are trying to falsify the Christian and Jewish Scripture by...using points from Christian and Jewish Scripture. Do you see how absurd that is? Imagine if I came to you claiming that Muslims modified the Qur'an, then giving you passages in the Qur'an to support my view? That would be ludicrous, my friend. There are so many points you don't mention: that the NT specifically says Jesus was dead, that the Romans would not take him down from the cross unless he were dead, the NT specifically stating Jesus rose from *the dead*, and so on. You miss all those points, yet quote the same source to support your own Islamic view that has led many astray.

    Here is how I know Israel is peaceful: if they weren't attacked, ever, there would be no fighting. The same cannot be true for the Islamic militant groups like Hamas and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, who regularly ignore peace treaties between Israel and the Palestinian leadership, blowing themselves up while killing innocent civilians, for God's sake.

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  30. no i didnt use any islamic website to support my statment yes however I wud have not care to look whether I am going thru NT or OT and it was not intential at all.However do you want to claim that such verses or similar dont exist in OT.You are also used to quote NT most of the time then why cant me?OR do u wana say that christians are lame enough that they themselves kept such verses in NT so that others(muslims etc) can quote them to prove them wrong?

    no israel is peaceful or not,i said i dont accept it and you didnt refute me yet my two points which you guys give as ab excuse for the existance of Israel.Referring Alaqsa,you are skipping IDF?or they are saints in human bodies?I dont support SUCIDE BOMBING but i know why are they doing it,their reason is valid but not the method to fight this war.



    NT specifically stating Jesus rose from *the dead*, and so on


    so what i quoted from NT by using yor referred site(biblegateway) are wrong?Kindly educate me for that.

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  31. Amazing Adnan! Simply amazing!

    I just want a simple answer. Does women get equal rights as men under Islam? If someone wants changes in Islamic law for obvious gender inequalities, should they be condemned or should their demands be debated? Now take the example of Taslima Nasreen and give me an answer.

    http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/pakistan/Pakhtml-06.htm#P434_82204

    Please Adnan, I am not concerned what will happen to Indians when they visit Pakistan; I never was. But, do you think that the laws mwntioned above needs change.

    If Saima does not want changes, then I guess she does not deserve justice, and does not do justice to her fellow women. Just because it does not happen to you does not mean that the law is just.

    I guess you guys will open your eyes and see things for what they are; and that you guys are being taken for a ride in the name of religion.

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  32. Adnan, you asked about where in Christian Scripture it states Jesus rose from the dead. Allow me to point you to a whole host of verses stating as such. The verses you quoted do not say Jesus didn't rise from the dead; what a stretch! If anything, those pieces you mention just hint at the Messiah's conquering of death, his being raised back up by God himself, fulfilling prophecies like Isaiah 53 along the way.

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  33. Amazing Adnan! Simply amazing!

    I just want a simple answer. Does women get equal rights as men under Islam?


    I already replied YES.WHy dont u go thru islamic sources rather coming up with ur own theories.

    and speaking of that HR link,are you trying to say that Hudood ordinance is part of Islam,the law made by a General back in 80s?If its like that then I think satti is part of Indian law too because many women become victom of it?

    Now lets see wht happening in your country.:

    http://www.india-facts.com/indiainside.php

    http://www.india-facts.com/indianterrorism/indiainside/article000088.php


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/828856.stm //India Unwanted girls


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4592890.stm >>India 'loses 10m female births' Horrible!! isnt it?

    Unlike you ,mylinks are more recent and yeah i am amazing that i am pointing out evils of ur own society.Go fix ur own society first then try to think about others.

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  34. then what those verses say?

    1)John 19:34
    2)Matthew:12:39-40
    3)Luke 22:42

    dont u find contradiction in ur theory and bible?

    please elaborate each verse to me.I wana learn

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  35. Adnan, we can debate Scripture and Qur'an all day long, but to what end? I'm not here to make you agree with me.

    The 3 Scriptures you mention deal with a Roman soldier piercing Jesus, Jesus asking that the Father's will be done, and a Jesus saying he will be in the ground 3 days before raising up again. I don't see any problem, my friend. In fact, I see Scripture fulfilled through Messiah's life, death, and raising from the dead. And real Scripture -- not a several-thousand-years-after-the-fact modern invention, like some other [ahem] supposedly holy books.

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  36. forget all the crap man.just look at this and tell me wht was her fault?

    http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/children-die-in-beach-massacre/2006/06/10/1149815350189.html

    Offcourse then you should expect sick things like sucicde bombing after this barbriac act.This a slap on your face from your own IDF(no offense).offcourse after such there is no point left that you claim your state as a peaceful state

    p.s: i did make a post on SOAPBOX of code project for same issue.

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  37. What you reference is a civilian dying in an artillery shell blast. Of course civilians are killed during war. Do you honestly believe the IDF spent a whole artillery shell for 1 old man? :)

    The difference here is that Israel targets suicide bombers and their supporters. Palestinian suicide bombers target civilians.

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  38. Judah:offcourse I dont believe that.This was a picture only and I know you are not stupid enough that you wouldnt have gone thru that news.

    Yes for IDF every other muslim is a terrorist and sucide bomber and this is not something new for me.Same theory is used by Hammas as for them every israeli is an enemy.Two wrongs don't make one right.

    Won't you dare to condemn killings of father of that girl?Would you protest against IDF killing.You gave a good speech at codeproject,will you apply same on yourself that is jesus' message?

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