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Why Messianic services ought not emulate synagogue services

Stuart

Stuart Dauermann and I are engaging in an interesting discussion regarding Messianic congregations over at the Messianic Agenda blog.

Any Messianic worth their salt should know of Stuart Dauermann; perhaps the greatest Messianic Jewish scholar, he’s also been called the Father of Jewish Gospel music, having authored hundreds of Messianic songs since the 1960s (!). To this day, he’s still laboring in the fields – serving as a Messianic Jewish rabbi, serving as a founding member of the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute, a resident scholar at the MJTI center in Jerusalem, and even hosts a weekly radio show. He’s a longtime servant of the Lord and I have the utmost respect for him.

But I had to take issue with some of his recent blog posts due to a concerning direction he – and indeed the greater Messianic world – is now moving in.

You see, some years ago, Rabbi Dauermann changed his direction: having previously been involved with missionary organizations to Jews, he discovered that Jewish mission organizations like Jews for Jesus were, besides bringing some Jews to Jesus, harming Jewish identity and covenant responsibilities: that is to say, Jews that came to Jesus stopped being Jews; organizations like Jews For Jesus created converts who were disconnected from the Jewish world, no longer keeping the Torah, and eventually became indistinguishable from gentile Christians.

And worse, the descendants of these Jews-turned-Christians tended to eventually lose all Jewish identity. They’d marry gentiles, their children would eventually stop calling themselves Jewish, and in a generation or two, the Jewish identity would be lost.

Jews –1, Christians +1.

Rabbi Dauermann, and others, saw this trend, and sought to reverse it by creating a congregational movement, Messianic Judaism, that is faithful to Judaism and Yeshua. A place where Jews who follow Yeshua can still be Jews: still connected to the Jewish world and practice Judaism.

So What’s the Problem Anyways?

All this sounds like a positive change in direction: we should preserve Jewish identity; following Yeshua should not require Jews to stop being Jewish. In fact, since Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah, following him ought to bring about a more Jewish and commandment-keeping lifestyle.

However, Dauermann’s recent blogs have tended towards criticism of our existing practices within the Messianic movement as Not-Jewish-Enough. He is arguing for more Yiddishkeit – Jewishness – in our Messianic congregations. And he does so by critiquing the practices of existing Messianic congregations:

For example, In Varieties of Jewish Yeshua Believers Part Two, Dauermann criticizes Messianic congregations that utilize Messianic music and Messianic dance:

[Such] services may be what I call “Jimmy Swaggart with Yarmulkes,” where what is going on is really American Pentecostalism or charismatic culture but done in a minor key, perhaps to the accompaniment of dancing.  Or such services might be what I term “B’nai First Baptist Church,” where the entire structure of the service, its feel, what Jews call its “ta’am” [“flavor”], is not really Jewish, despite the use of Jewish terminology, decorations, and even some service elements.

He singles out Messianic dance as particularly egregious and Not-Jewish-Enough:

Another model is what I term “Arthur Murray Goes to Tel Aviv.”  For these congregations, their main investment in Jewish ambiance and authenticity is dance, while other substantive areas are subject to neglect, ignorance, or tokenism.  It is this disproportionate reliance on what is termed “Davidic Dancing” to the neglect of substantial Jewish religious communal engagements that is the problem here.

He labels these congregations trayf, non-kosher:

You might summarize all of these models as the “ham and cheese on a bagel approach.”  There is something Jewish in there, but there is so much that is alien to the Jewish ethos, that authenticity is lacking.  The problem is one of substituting a thin veneer for the real thing.   The danger is that such models of services and congregational culture produce Jewish believers whose Jewishness is an eighth of an inch deep—at least to other Jews if not themselves.

His sentiments appeal to many Messianics.

More Jewishness, more authentic Judaism. You see this trend in Messianic organizations like First Fruits of Zion, UMJC, and so forth. As an insider to the Messianic movement for over 20 years, I believe this trend will continue to grow within our ranks.

Bottom line: Dauermann’s sentiments are praised by most in the Messianic movement, and this trend is growing.

In my own mind, I wanted to agree with Dauermann because it sounds so good, but I knew something was off. The difficulty was articulating exactly what was wrong with this sentiment.

I also knew if I spoke against this trending belief, I would receive some flak for doing so. It’s the nature of trending ideas. Even so, I had to speak up for sake of Messiah’s presence in our congregations.

So what is wrong with this trending agenda? It sounds so good – more Jewishness in our congregations, more connection to the Jewish world – what could possibly be wrong with such positive sentiment?

The problem is an imbalance of priorities.

This trending idea of more Yiddishkeit, although well-intentioned, is being taught with priority over things God has given us.

Taking Messianic music, for example. God has blessed, uplifted, strengthened thousands of his people through Messianic music. Dauermann acknowledges this. I’ve seen it first-hand as a Messianic musician myself, and as author of best Messianic radio on the web, Chavah. Even so, Dauermann ultimately argues for less Messianic music and more Yiddishkeit.

Why?

Because he believes that if our congregations are more authentically Jewish, with a real connection to Judaism and the Jewish world, we’ll be a true light to Jewish people for Yeshua. Furthermore, we’ll grow in our own Jewishness, being better Jews ourselves, and from that, we’ll be more faithful to God’s convenants as we walk in his commandments.

A noble goal.

But step back and look at what’s being said here, and it’s implications: “We ought to have less of [God-given, grass-roots Messianic, Spirit Life-giving element] and more [thing Judaism already has].”

More succinctly, we ought to subtract from a [God-given element] and add more of [human religion element].

Before you criticize me for being a Cowboy Religionist type, hear me out.

The implication is that we can, by our own doing and reasoning, build a better religion by displacing the things God has given us over the last several decades.

To be sure, Jewishness is also a God-given element, but here we’re really talking about elements from Judaism’s religious services, which are neither here nor there. Take more of those, and displace the things God has given us.

That’s the imbalance of priorities: the Make-Us-More-Jewish agenda is given priority over the Spirit-Life-giving agenda.

Messianic music is just one example. Dauermann also critcizes Messianic dance which, though it can be awkward, is nonetheless a native, joyful expression of worship, one that is authentically grass-roots Messianic.

Despite this being a true and authentic joyful expression of worship, Dauermann sees it a priority to have less Messianic dance and more Jewishness.

Less authentic joyful worship, more Jewishness.

Imbalance of priorities.

The same goes for most any specifically-Messianic practice: blowing shofars at any old shabbat service, using tallits to cover wives and children in prayer, you name it. A distinctly Messianic element, even if merit, should be displaced to make room for more Jewishness.

The Messianic agenda is one that calls for more Jewishness at the expense of Spirit Life giving elements.

And it’s for that reason, I told Dauermann the following:

Rabbi Dauermann,

You are one of the greatest scholars in the Messianic movement, a valuable visionary leader, and above all, a brother in Messiah, one whom I hold much respect for. (Thank you, Lord, for Rabbi Dauermann and his faithful service to your people!)

So it’s with great care and respect I say the following:

Your priorities are not sound. In particular, you place an extraordinarily high priority, perhaps above any other, on our services mapping well to the traditional Jewish religious service. When you see a practice in Messianic congregations that is outside the norm of traditional Jewish religious service, it almost automatically becomes an offense that must be eradicated or lowered in significance, bowing to the strictly traditional elements of Jewish religious service. You give such practices a label, and use that label to make a caricature out of the practice.

I will give an example, then explain why it is an unsound priority.

You see congregations utilizing Messianic music and dance as “Jimmy Swaggart with Yarmulkes.” The implication in this label is that Messianic congregations that employ Messianic music and dance are putting on a Pentacostal entertainment show with only superficial connection to Judaism. You further suggested influences like Messianic music is, referring to Messianic leadership, “almost always because of their own prior sojourns in evangelical Christian space.”

Let’s get to the heart of the matter: does Messianic music exalt God, and has it produced good fruit? You and I have witnessed the uplifting of many thousands of Yeshua’s followers through Messianic Jewish music and dance. On a personal level, it’s a strengthening of my soul, being able to worship God to music in this uniquely Messianic way. I have not received that same spiritual renewal in any other form of service, from either Evangelical churches or traditional synagogues.

Before you accuse me of being a self-centered, individualistic Messianic, consider the community: looking at it from the community-of-Israel perspective, what a great loss Jewish people have suffered in being void of nearly all musical communal worship in Jewish religious services! Where is the joyous sounds of stringed instruments praising him, the choirs singing, that great joy that King David exhorted the people to take part in? Why isn’t musical worship an integral part of traditional Jewish religious services? In the synagogues I’ve visited, these things aren’t present. At very most, we chant some liturgical poems, maybe li-li-li to a niggun, or in a great while sing zemiros. With respect, these are no replacements for the musicial instrument-accompanied, choir blasting, whole communal joyful praising described in the Psalms. It says something about the Jewish world that the most well known Jewish religious music today is from a beat-boxing reggae artist from New York. And even that artist’s talents came about from his sojourns in the secular world; Judaism itself is rather stifling in this regard, these expressions come from outside the synagogue.

Messianic Judaism is in a unique and historical position to change Judaism. Messianic music and dance is one such reform; restoring a Scriptural practice, one that uplifts and strengthens and heals.

But instead of seeing joy and healing and restoration and uplifting of thousands, you see Jimmy Swaggart in a Yarmulke.

I suggest your priority of connection to the Jewish world has taken precedence over nearly every other priority in the Messianic world, leading you to diminish righteous practices in favor of More Jewishness, where More Jewishness is defined as better emulation of Judaism’s traditional religious services. More traditional Judaism service emulation, less everything else. That is the undertone sensed in your writings.

If that is not what you are intending to convey to the Messianic world, then I would very much like to hear from you an element of Messianic services without a correlating element in traditional Jewish religious services, but one you still deem righteous and good and in good balance.

If you cannot think of such a thing, I propose to you that your priority on connection to the Jewish world has become for you and unbalanced priority, blinding you to righteous things God is doing in our congregations.

Since I left that comment, there has been a bit of back and forth with Dauermann, which I very much enjoyed. He’s a guy that engages in discussion in a scholarly way, he doesn’t beat around the bush, he’s totally upfront and direct in his criticisms.

I think we’re at the point in the discussion, however, that he is now misunderstanding my position, and criticizing a position that I don’t hold. It’s really inevitable in current online discussions, which invariably degenerate as more words are spoken and misinterpreted. So for the time, I’ll likely leave the discussion where it’s at. I have spoken what I felt desperately needed to be spoken, and I did so in a way that was respectful and in love towards a brother in Messiah.

What do you fine blog readers think: should we have more Jewishness in our congregations, even if it’s at the expense of Spirit Life giving elements like Messianic music?

36 comments:

  1. Paul said again and again that our identity is in Messiah. He never said that our identity is in Judaism.

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  2. That's an interesting point.

    If the Messiah and the disciples did not place a priority on identity in Judaism, why should we?

    I anticipate the answer will be something along the lines of, "Well, back then, Yeshua's disciples were already within Judaism. There was no 'Christianity'."

    I have a response for that. But in any case, I do believe, at very least, the trending focus in the Messianic world, the one summarized by Dauermann, is an imbalance of priority.

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  3. This reminds me of a scene from the film Keeping the Faith (2000)..this is a wonderful film, by the way. A young, hip Rabbi, played by Ben Stiller, tries to infuse some life and spirit into his synagogue through a number of methods. At one point, he brings in a black gospel group to sing (ein keloheinu, I think...and they do a great job).

    Afterwards, the head Rabbi pulls Stiller's character aside (after he gets chewed out by the board) and explains that the traditional prayers and worship of the synagogue can bring a great deal of comfort and even joy to some people. It wasn't that the idea of jazzing things up was necessarily bad, but it was done at the expense of those people who draw their connection to God from traditional "Jewishness".

    You juxtapose "Spirit-Life giving" activities such as dancing and singing with "Jewishness" as if only the former is "Spiritual" and the latter is like eating dry saltine crackers and Styrofoam. I think it's all what you are used to and what you are drawn to and what you need to draw you closer to God.

    I've been to Charismatic services and frankly, I'm not attracted to jumping up and down like a hyperactive leprechaun. If that's what some believers want and need in their worship services, more power to them, but it's a choice, not an absolute requirement. For some people, and particularly for some Jews, there is a great deal of joy and beauty in singing the Shema and reciting the Amidah.

    I haven't read any of Dr. Dauermann's blog posts yet (I'll have to do so now that I've shot my big mouth off here), but if there are Jews in Messianic Judaism who want and need to worship in a traditional Jewish synagogue context (and I mean completely traditional), I can't see why they can't or shouldn't do so. Being Jewish does not mean that you are not spiritually connected to God and some people don't need to dance in order to find that connection.

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  4. "There was no 'Christianity'."

    Then,Why today, when there is a "Christianity" The let all them "dirty Christian" in their midst?

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  5. I did not say the spirit is not present in traditional services, such as liturgy.

    Nor am I suggesting we act like hyperactive leprechauns, that is a caricature of our position.

    You're missing the point: why displace existing Spirit Life Giving elements in order to better emulate Judaism? That's the issue being addressed.

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  6. You're missing the point: why displace existing Spirit Life Giving elements in order to better emulate Judaism? That's the issue being addressed.

    Maybe I am, but who says that, if people like Dr. Dauermann want to have a more traditional Jewish worship life, that it would be "emulating" Judaism. Why wouldn't it *be* Judaism?

    If your congregation does it differently, I have no problem wit that (from what you say, it sounds like Dauermann would, though) but for me, this isn't a matter of right vs. wrong. It's a matter of what sort of congregation you want and need. The "Jewishness" of "Messianic Judaism" needs some synagogues that are indeed Jewish synagogues. I suspect there are some Jews in MJ that feel the movement will die on the vine unless it progresses toward a more normative Jewish worship pattern and general lifestyle.

    Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but I certainly don't see the harm in Jews who are disciples of the Jewish Messiah having a Jewish worship life. I do see many MJ congregations (probably most of them) that follow a range of styles, including those that have a largely Christian or "church" presentation with some Jewish elements added in. That might not be a good fit for all Jews in MJ.

    OK, maybe I went a little overboard with my "hyperactive leprechaun" comment, but unlike you, I don't have a musical bone in my body. I sing like a frog and I dance with two left feet. I really do prefer a worship style that leans more toward Jewish liturgy and focuses on prayer.

    I still haven't had the chance to read Dauermann's blog yet, maybe I'll amend my opinions once I do.

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  7. Why wouldn't MJ be Judaism? Because it's wishful thinking to believe the Jewish world will accept us as a Judaism as long as Yeshua is Lord. Human efforts will only go so far to change that.

    If this issue was only a matter of personal preference, I'd have stayed quiet. But we're very much speaking of right and wrong: displacing Spirit Life giving elements (not just music, see post), with human religious service elements in order to better emulate Judaism. There is a certain wisdom, or foolishness, associated with that priority.

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  8. I will say, Dauermann was engaging in the conversation. I was particularly moved by his observations on Clinton Avenue. It shows me he, unlike some in our movement, are sensitive to the Spirit.

    So in that regard, I am hopeful Dauermann is still on the right track in his thinking, even if his implementation plans are different than my ideas. He has a few good decades head start on me, after all. :-)

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  9. I've read and commented on his blog (it's probably still in moderation). I really want to understand what you are against but I don't see it. I must have a blind spot somewhere, but I don't see why a congregation *must* worship in the manner you are familiar with and not in the manner Dr. Dauermann suggests. I also noticed that he said he wasn't against music, dancing, and such, just that, in his opinion, those elements shouldn't overshadow the Judaism in a Jewish congregation.

    I'm not trying to argue or to be dense (though I suppose I am) but you seem to see certain elements of a worship service as generated by the holy spirit and others (the "Jewishness" elements) as not. I still don't understand why Jewish worship or any part of it would not or could not be inspired by the Holy Spirit. I really don't.

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  10. No is arguing God's spirit is unable to inhabit traditional service elements such as siddur liturgy.

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  11. Judah... why should you have a voice in this, a say in the direction Messianic Judaism may be headed, I pray tell? You are speaking from outside of the Messianic Judaism and outside of a Jewish community (being part of a non-Jewish Two-House "Ephraimite" congregation). If you, as an "independent messianic" want to continue to worship G-d the way you currently do - mazel tov to you!

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  12. Because, as much as you protest, people like me are part of the broad Messianic movement.

    You can scream, "GO AWAY!" all you want, Gene.

    But the fact is, Jewish people, even half-Jews like myself, who are followers of Yeshua and lovers of Torah -- we are part of the Messianic movement. Even if you don't like our theology. :-)

    For us, we desire to see God's spirit moving in Messianic congregations, including Gene Shlomovich-Approved ones. We want goodness for God's people. That's why we care, and why we speak up.

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  13. "No is arguing God's spirit is unable to inhabit traditional service elements such as siddur liturgy."

    It seems to me that for some folks their understanding of "spiritual" worship necessitates certain regular elements of "disorder" (for lack of a better term) and of free-floating ad-hoc expressions in worship services for them to be "in the Spirit". For the charismatically-minded order during service=stifling of the Spirit. I don't think that one finds such attitudes anywhere in the Bible, where much of what went on in the Temple (but not in the souls of the worshipers!!!) was quite scripted.

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  14. "It shows me he, unlike some in our movement, are sensitive to the Spirit."

    Judah, why are you making such a judgement on the spiritual fitness of your fellow followers of Messiah simply because they worship differently than you (e.g. Jewishly)? Who are you to judge another man's or woman's worship of HaShem, to weigh their unique sensitivity and personal spiritual connection to the Spirit of G-d and find it lacking?

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  15. No is arguing God's spirit is unable to inhabit traditional service elements such as siddur liturgy.

    I must be having a bad day but that doesn't make any sort of sense. "No is arguing"? Who is "No"?

    Can you put this another way, please?

    If you are saying that you are not arguing against the Holy Spirit being able to inhabit a traditional Jewish synagogue service, then I'm at a loss to see your point. Neither you nor Dr. Dauermann are able to single-handedly decide how the Messianic movement as a whole will progress, but you each have a certain amount of control over those areas where you operate. I don't have a problem with what he's trying to accomplish and he's been extremely gracious in managing any disagreement on his blog. That said, I also have no issues with how you define the necessary elements of worship for you and your congregation.

    However, what I do see happening is that the definition of "Messianic Judaism" is being negotiated. Eventually, some congregations are going to worship Yeshua (Jesus) and be aligned more with Christianity and others are going to worship Yeshua (Jesus) and be more aligned with Judaism. In other words, some MJs will be a Christianity and some MJs will be a Judaism.

    At least in the short run. Once the Messiah returns, I suppose he'll straighten us all out. There is only One God and one Messiah...but there are many, many people and we all have different ways we choose to relate to God, depending on who we are.

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  16. "It seems to me that for some folks their understanding of "spiritual" worship necessitates certain regular elements of "disorder"

    That's another caricature.

    Here's the reality:

    Too often, synagogues attempt to contain worship of God to a half an hour-ish of scripted expression. (Or faster, if the cantor is a speed speaker!)

    That's not right for God's people.

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  17. "Judah, why are you making such a judgement on the spiritual fitness of your fellow followers of Messiah simply because they worship differently than you (e.g. Jewishly)? Who are you to judge another man's or woman's worship of HaShem, to weigh their unique sensitivity and personal spiritual connection to the Spirit of G-d and find it lacking?"

    Ha! Ha!

    And this is coming from someone who himself is a pariah in Messianic Judaism circles because he himself decides what is right and what is not....OY, Vey!

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  18. >> "I'm at a loss to see your point"

    It's really quite simple: since both Dauermann and myself agree Messianic music is good and uplifts and has produced much good fruit, the question is whether we should displace or minimize such Spirit Life giving stuff in order to be better Judaism-emulators.

    Dauermann is in favor, myself against.

    Nitpicker's corner: I'm phrasing the question as I see it. I'm at liberty to do that, because this is my comment on my blog. Dauermann would likely use different words, but would imply, I believe, essentially the same outcome: more Yiddishkeit and less non-traditional service elements.

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  19. Gene,

    I have been respectful to Dauermann in all my dealings, private and public. My posts have not been judgmental of brothers in Messiah -- notice I have not said the spirit is missing from traditional services.

    Rather, I have stated a concern with a direction that Dauermann (and indeed, many in the Messianic movement) are taking. I am free to do that, just as Dauermann is free to post his vision for the Messianic movement. Most of his vision is very good. The part I that concerns me is the part I raised to him on his blog. He's free to discard my concern; even so, I felt it necessary to voice it.

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  20. "Too often, synagogues attempt to contain worship of God to a half an hour-ish of scripted expression. (Or faster, if the cantor is a speed speaker!)That's not right for God's people."

    Judah, I've never been inside a synagogue that even remotely fits your description, not even the most liberal temples I visited (I am not even talking about traditional synagogues with services that last hours and meet multiple times during a single day).

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  21. It's really quite simple: since both Dauermann and myself agree Messianic music is good and uplifts and has produced much good fruit, the question is whether we should displace or minimize such Spirit Life giving stuff in order to be better Judaism-emulators.

    Dauermann is in favor, myself against.


    OK. I disagree with how you choose to compartmentalize what is "Spirit Life giving stuff" and what is not, and I think there's a difference between "emulating" Judaism (which is what many MJ congregations do these days) and "being" a Judaism, which is what I believe Dr. Dauermann is suggesting, but as you say, it's your blog and we've disagreed before. I just wanted to understand your point of view.

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  22. What happened to one new man ... neither Jew nor gentile?

    Why not base the practices of the true and faithful ekklesia on the sound doctrine of Scripture, rather than the culture and traditions of those (as a group) who hate Yeshua haMashiach AND His Father in Heaven? [ref John 15:23] Truly, the Elohim of Israel is echad. If one has a hate of/love for the Eternal One, such a one Is double-minded and unstable [ref James 1:8].

    ~If~ the Messianic faith is to be based on Judaism, why Orthodox (which basically means 'traditions'), and not Reformed Judaism... or, secular Judaism?

    So why messianic 'Judaism'? Where in Scripture was "Judaism" anointed? (I hope no one claims John 4:22 "Salvation is of the Jews" is the answer.) What happened to the faith of Abraham, the faith of Moses, etc? They weren't (officially) Jews, Jewish, or in Judaism.

    And what's with this 1-House vs 2-House? I seems like the 1-House MJ is really the 2-House (i.e. 1st class Jews and second class gentiles) while the Independent Ephraimite (I'm not really familiar with that term) is called 2-House, but really is the One New Man 1-House. I think the labels are used mainly for finger-pointing. Grow up! Wouldja? To use Bill Cloud's example, when Jacob prepared to meet Esau, he divided his family into two camps - they were physically separated, yet they were still a united family. "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?" --Rodney Glen King

    Yak

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  23. "Why not base the practices of the true and faithful ekklesia on the sound doctrine of Scripture, rather than the culture and traditions of those (as a group) who hate Yeshua haMashiach AND His Father in Heaven?"

    Yak, you mean I should instead emulate vile antisemites such as yourself?

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  24. My wife emailed my an article written by Rabbi Tzvi Freeman called What is Chutzpah? Relative to this conversation, this is my favorite quote:

    "Citing the words of the Mishnah, “Be fierce as a leopard,” the code tells us that this means that when you go about doing all those Jewish things that Jews do, you shouldn’t feel the slightest embarrassment before those who ridicule you."

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  25. Gene wrote "vile antisemites such as yourself"

    Gene, are you calling the Word of God "vile antisemite"? Or, if my paraphrase of John 12:23 is in error, please explain.

    Yak

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  26. Yak, read my comment above about chutzpah, then consider this part of the Bedtime Shema as taken from Psalm 4:5:

    "Tremble and sin not. Reflect in your hearts while on your beds, and be utterly silent."

    Now please recall that without the Jewish Jesus (Yeshua), the Jewish Paul, the Jewish Peter, the Jewish James (Jacob) and the rest of the Jewish disciples of the Master, neither you nor I would have had the opportunity to repent, experience redemption, and then be reconciled to God. Is hatred of Jews which is only thinly veiled by misuse of scripture truly your best witness of God's grace?

    I hadn't intended to continue my participation in these comments. I understand where Judah is coming from, though I don't agree with his interpretation, but attitudes such as the one you display require a response.

    I feel very sorry for you and that you think blowing out someone else's candle makes yours burn any brighter. You only succeed in dimming the light of God in this world by your anger and hostility. How many people would read your comments and conclude that you follow a God of bigotry?

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  27. Well, I know what some who don't know me think of me (but, truly, the blog is not about me). Bless you.

    My on-topic comments have not been refuted or corrected. And the questions (original post posed a number of them; and to Gene) remain unanswered. My comments stand.

    Yak

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  28. @ James

    "The Baal Shem Tov, founder of the Chassidic movement, had no sense of fear of anyone or anything other than G‑d Himself" --Tzvi Freeman

    I concur with the Command to love and fear the Eternal One. So doesn't that preclude following mere man's doctrines, customs, traditions which transgress His Torah [recall 1 John 3:4]? (Not that all of man's doctrines, customs, traditions make the divine Instruction of no effect, but some do.)

    Does this mean that we are now in agreement? (Not that agreeing with me or with each other is of any value; what is important is agreeing with the Eternal One, His will, His Way, His Word.)

    Yak
    Psalm 133:1  Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

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  29. @Yak:

    I can see that there's more to you than meets the eye. Unfortunately, I won't have time over the next several days, to craft a proper response. However, at one point you said:

    "I know what some who don't know me think of me."

    It is true that I don't know you and except for the pseudonym "Yak", you post here anonymously. I don't want to be unfair. You've obviously been to my blog, so you have some sense of who I am.

    So, who are you?

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  30. "You've obviously been to my blog, so you have some sense of who I am."

    Brother James, again you make erroneous assumptions... why did you say that? If I've ever been to your blog, it was a long time ago (I don't recall it).

    Basically, what I know of you is what you post here. And what you know of me is what I post.

    As I've stated before, my witness is not about me. Address what I profess (why not try to stay on-topic?), not what you think of or about me, please.

    Yak (And why do you claim that Yak is a ~pseudonym~?)

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  31. Brother James, again you make erroneous assumptions... why did you say that? If I've ever been to your blog, it was a long time ago (I don't recall it).

    I said it because you appeared to quote from my blog when you quoted Rabbi Freeman referencing the Baal Shem Tov. Obviously I was mistaken.

    This is one of the things about the Internet that bugs me, especially using text-only communication. It's so darn easy to misunderstand what's being said. It's also one of the things about the "Messianic" blogosphere that bugs me...even when I try to "make nice" with someone, my efforts are misunderstood and conflict ensues.

    This is one of the reasons that I left the Messianic and particularly the One Law movement. Discussions seem to be based on this: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

    I enjoy and spirited debate and many times I can even be enlightened. I don't find disagreement for its own sake to be edifying. I'm bowing out of this and the conversation re: Nehemiah Gordon and am considering whether or not I have anything useful to contribute to Kineti L'Tziyon.

    Good night.

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  32. @ James

    OK, it was obvious why you assumed I had been to your blog... but a big problem in online discussions/email is that people make assumptions of what is not said.

    The truth is that I received the email with the Baal Shem Tov link -- I received it directly, not forwarded as you got it. (I am not completely outta the loop as it seems to commonly be assumed - according to my awareness.)

    I quoted the source of ~Can't we all just get along?~ Here is a video which includes this sentiment... which you may like. YouTube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxUfzEFz5mM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Yak

    ReplyDelete
  33. To me the issue is resolved when we understand that we are called to be the head and not the tail.
    We, who believe in Messiah, are indeed the priests of our people and need to be leading and displaying to our people what Israel can be like with her Messiah. We indeed are spiritual Chalutzim (pioneers) and are paving the way for our people.
    In addition, our last commandment for Messiah was to be His witness and make disciples. Let no desire to please men hinder this.

    ReplyDelete
  34. To me the issue is resolved when we understand that we are called to be the head and not the tail.
    We, who believe in Messiah, are indeed the priests of our people and need to be leading and displaying to our people what Israel can be like with her Messiah. We indeed are spiritual Chalutzim (pioneers) and are paving the way for our people.
    In addition, our last commandment for Messiah was to be His witness and make disciples. Let no desire to please men hinder this.

    ReplyDelete

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