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Messianics are mean, therefore I’m staying in my Church

Last week’s post on Is It a Sin for Christians to Break the Torah has sparked almost 70 comments. Just received another comment that may be the most interesting yet:


I like your blog and all, and have learned a few good things however from time to time it just digresses into pure nastiness. I go to a very stable Baptist church where the fruits of the spirit are evident we have a deep love for Israel, the Jewish people and each other. What do you have to offer that would better my life as a disciple of Christ? Seriously all I see is fighting and division Paul warns harshly to expel those who cause division..

Also why are some people on this forum so vile? I noticed in the disagreement between Gene and Dan Dan calling Gene a Shmuck? (a word I found out means penis in Yiddish) is this what your idea of serving Christ looks like? Out of the mouth the heart speaks.
I think for now I will just stick with my church it's stable, dynamic and we are all trying to serve Christ the best we know how. I feel much safer there.

Brother in Christ.

I’ve got an answer in mind, but I’d like to see what you guys have to say. How would you answer that, fine fightin’ Messianic blog readers?


  1. "How would you answer that, fine fightin’ Messianic blog readers?"

    I would say that the "Brother in Christ" is absolutely correct. As I commented earlier, while no community is perfect and I would only love to see more Christians change some of their theology toward G-d's plan for the Jewish people, many churches are indeed abounding in the fruit of the Spirit and offer a fine sanctuary and respite away from the nastiness of this world. The last thing a Christian would need is join a group that looks down on other believers and lovers of G-d and refuses to associate with them in any meaningful way simply on account of law-keeping.

  2. I have never believed that today's Messianic movement is something for everyone--precisely because of the kind of comments that have been posted here. Tomorrow's, possibly, can be something more stable and welcoming. But that is something that has to be worked for, long and hard, and with steadfast perseverance. We have yet to really learn the meaning of Romans 12:10:

    "[L]ove one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor" (NRSV).

  3. In some sense, "Brother in Christ" is "comparing apples and oranges". Each one of us represents our own congregations and faith communities from around the country. "Brother" is comparing the expressions of our disparate personalities and congregational viewpoints to his single church with one cohesive collection of members. We each of us feel "safe" and "united" within our own congregations but we come to the "wild" blogosphere to have more "dangerous" discussions with the wider community of Messianic and Christian believers. One of the ways to truly test what you believe in is to present it in an environment where not everyone sees the world, God, and religion in the same way.

    I'm glad he has a safe community and that he feels the unity of the body of Christ in his church. Sounds like a great group, but I think he's being a tad unfair. He'd get a better understanding of "the movement" if he could visit each of our individual congregations. Then he'd be comparing "apples and apples".

  4. I think it was very wise to allow your bloggers to address the issue Judah. Someone else's remarks should, logically, have no bearing on you, your blog, or your faith.

    If the brother does not like listening to heated discussions that is his prerogative regardless of which group he is listening to. You will find folks in every religion or group get in a heated or even hate-filled argument. That is human nature and bears on one's spiritual growth and development to remain in the light of Christ or get drawn out of it.

    However, I can relate to the heart of what this person is getting at having been completely bull-dozed by Messianics before for getting a rule wrong while I was extending the olive branch to a Hindu friend. I think the deep issue here is that we are a house divided and are in the infancy of coming together. While more Messianics can learn from big-hearted Christians on the compassion of Christ, which, in my understanding is the Most High, the Christians can also learn from the Messianics that God still has an order of things. For example, "You are the Sun" by Sarah Groves. Here we see a big-hearted Christian with absolutely no idea of what idolatry means.

    Carry on with a great blog Judah. All things will be brought into the light.

  5. Rabbi Yitzhak Greenberg said, "It is not ethical to take the worst of someone else's tradition and compare it with the best of yours. The "brother in Christ" has done just that. I agree that name calling has no place among people who call themselves brethren. I could point out many bad things said by Christians to one another, in the context of theological discussion, as well as horrible things said to Messianics by Christians, but i won't do that. He should read some of the vile things Martin Luther said about other Christians and Jews and see how that pans out for him.

    The "brother in Christ" would have done well to dig deeper and see what Messianic Judaism actually teaches. He is back in his church where he probably will be happy. Thats good for him. Rather than knock the Messianic world, he should further examine his own world before making such statements.

    Nevertheless, we would do well to treat one another with common decency.

  6. "The "brother in Christ" would have done well to dig deeper and see what Messianic Judaism actually teaches. "

    Dr. Schiffman... I don't think that "Brother in Christ" is speaking against or even about "Messianic Judaism", but rather of the various offshoots that go under the label "messianic", e.g. Two-House, One-Law, and Hebrew Roots, Sacred Namers, i.e. those groups that primary target Christians to persuade them to come out of churches/Christianity by painting it as pagan and lawless, and generally look down on Gentiles in churches.

  7. See, Dan? I knew we were gonna get busted by some anonymous, stable Baptist! But NooOOOOOoooooOOOOOooo, you just had to push it to the Yiddish limit, didn't you?!

    And now look! B.I.C is forced to stay where "he feels safer". Way to go! We had him learning "a few good things" and you had to go and ruin it! Gene was so right about you. I mean, "Brother" is obviously a tender-hearted lad who has never been in an argument, never seen an argument, never even seen a movie that contained an argument - and you scared the spicy mustard out of him with your surly, anatomy-laced vernacular! Shame on you, Sailor-Mouth!

    I mean, where is this poor kid gonna go now? This was obviously his first time online. You think he's ever comin' back?! You can forget it. He can't go outside, can't watch tv and even his teenage friends sound like they read Kineti every morning before school.

    Yep. That was our last shot and we blew it. I hope you're happy.

  8. This guy wasn't talking about any particular theology in the Messianic movement.

    He was talking about the fighting that he saw here, on this blog, particularly the fighting between Dan and Gene.

  9. Luke, for a moment I thought you were above this, but you've allowed to let the full measure of sarcasm rip into someone who simply expressed his heartfelt frustration at seeing Yeshua followers using "vile", denigrating language against each other.

  10. "This guy wasn't talking about any particular theology in the Messianic movement. "

    Judah, you are wrong about that. Look at the context of the comments under that previous blog post. You used Seth Dralle, a former One-Law Gentile messianic who returned to church as an example of how horrible Bilateral Ecclesiology (mainstream Messianic Judaism) that it have caused him to do such a bad thing - and putting Gentiles who are leaving One-Law movement and returning to church in the same category as forsaking Messiah himself (e.g. Ovadia). I, in turn, felt a need to defend Christians and churches from such gross misrepresentation. This prompted attack by Dan and the subsequent reaction to Dan's words by "Brother in Christ".

  11. I'm just joking, Genie-Baby. Be cool.

    People make mistakes. Sometimes they don't even see them as such (or apologize). I asked Dan to chill and he didn't. I'm the only one that even took the time to do that (in fact, if you look, it was the second time I made mention that you two should relax). You just egged him on, if I recall. Now you're policing the situation? Should Judah expect a sad-gram accusing him of this being what his "idea of serving Christ looks like" every time you old dudes wanna cyber-scrap?

    I cannot remember the last time I saw a blogpost discussing the things of G-d that didn't contain something that offended me or erupt into an argument at some point (or both!). Should Judah put a disclaimer up so that we can continue to have you and Dan on here? Or should we just be more sensitive to potential outside traffic and not respond when folks start calling each other names.

    How ever you want to handle it next time, Gene. It's totally up to you.

  12. "every time you old dudes wanna cyber-scrap?"

    LOL, Luke, I am probably younger than you:) Now as for Dan...

  13. Not if you're still typing "LOL" you're not. Nevertheless, I accept your apology and assurance that change is on the way. Thanks, Gene.

  14. My point was not about theology.. but that Christians fight as bad or worse than what I have seen here. Even so.. no one should do it.

  15. "various offshoots that go under the label "messianic", e.g. Two-House, One-Law, and Hebrew Roots, Sacred Namers"

    Without the One Law people to bash day in and day out Gene will be out of a job, reduced to post some old boring Rassian tales. I think Gene owes One Law some royalties, don't you think so guys?

  16. You are right as always Dr. Schifmman, but sometimes i just can't resist...LOL!

  17. Anonymous said...

    Gene, is that you?

    Seriously, civility is cultural. Anyone who has lived a moment in another culture ought to know that.

    I remember when my youngest son spent some extended time in Israel. He said to me one day, "Dad, why are people here so rude? They cut in front in lines, and the push to get on the bus." I told him, "It is culture. Israelis aren't rude, they are simply direct." Then I pointed out how everyone helps the elderly people off and on the bus, after they push able-bodied people out of the way to be first themselves. After a month, I watched him one day elbowing his way through a line and standing 4 inches behind the person in front of him. "Hey, did you get rude all of a sudden?" He just smiled. He had adapted to the culture and it did not make him rude, just Israeli. Any New Yorkers out there?

    I have seen the "civility" and politeness of the Church, up front and personal. I have observed the smiles and "brotherly love" exhibited while gossiping and destroying someone privately. I'll take Israeli directness any day. "Brother in Christ" indeed. Now that is a rude thing to say to a Messianic < grin >.

    As for Dan's Yiddish - just because a Yiddish slang word makes you run for google, does not mean that it bears the same import as you suggest. There are a plethora of parallel English words used in the vernacular that over time gain acceptance because their intended meaning changes. I suspect that if we listened in on "Anonymous'" conversations we would hear slang English words used that when examined at their original literal level would embarrass all.

  18. Rick, you don't have to make excuses for Dan's behavior. I have Israeli friends and relatives ("Sabras" born in Israel, not immigrants), and they are some of the most pleasant people I've been around. Dan is not "direct", he's just a cranky old fella with a chip on his shoulder.

  19. Well said, Rick. Too common sense to refute, though some may try.

    My entire family is from New York, so I identified right away with your understanding of cultural directness. I often notice people here in Florida experiencing a massaging of their comfort levels when dealing with my family members or me. Going anywhere as a kid with my parents was always an embarrassment waiting to happen.

    I've since learned to tone my default responses down a bit. It goes without saying that we are to be salt and light in all our dealings with people, so I can easily agree with the other views on this as well.

    It's just the whole attitude of this that is annoying to me (though, I'm not offended - ha!). It's like, "Your blog is good, but sometimes people exhibit nastiness in the comments section. I've never seen this sort of thing anywhere before. *turns off South Park* Therefore, your understanding and application of scripture is not as accurate as mine or my church's - or at least, you have nothing to offer me worth enduring the verbal brutality I've been subjected to here - an onslaught of nastiness that Paul, himself, would have prayed against".


    Honestly, I'm more offended by how "safe" his church is than by any name Dan could call me - if you know what I mean. And Gene, that is not an opportunity to try to convince me of Christianity's warm fuzziness.. And while I'm at it.. Dan, that is not a dare. :^)

  20. Hey,
    Maybe I should have no let my emotions get in the way, I'm sorry if I categorized everyone in a negative light. I have some wonderful Messianic friends however what I see here I simply don't see them displaying. I hope you all the best.


  21. Hi B.I.C,

    I don't think you said anything wrong, really. You called it like you saw it: lots of fighting doesn't reflect well on us. Can't blame you for that.

    Like Rick said, disagreements and arguments and fighting does exist in the Christian world, often in a passive-aggressive way. At least here we're up front about it. And you know what, even though Gene and Dan and myself and others argue sometimes, we're actually friendly to each other outside of our arguments.

    Bottom line: we do fight, sometimes we go overboard, but not all arguments are bad. Some are needed. Especially when talking about the future of Messiah's kingdom.

  22. I suppose that the conflicts here between "mainstream MJs" and the so called "independent messianics" are similar to Yeshua vs. the Pharisees, that is they are primarily driven by our similarities not our differences. After all, it those closest to us that irritate us the most and it is them that we would like to see change for the better, not those who are far off, with whom we have little in common and rarely come in contact with.

  23. I love you all guys..Even you Gene...Rick on the other hand, ahh...Just kidding bro.

  24. I suppose that the conflicts here between "mainstream MJs" and the so called "independent messianics" are similar to Yeshua vs. the Pharisees, that is they are primarily driven by our similarities not our differences.

    How true, Gene. I think a lot about that. Not to make excuses for ourselves (myself), but I do think we are always going to be hardest on those closest to us.

  25. The Messianic way is how Messiah truly worshiped. We are not all mean.
    Church is not the Messiah way.
    Church leaves out to Do ALL the Bible holidays. Messiah Did not worship on Sunday. Roses are Redish and violets are blueish with our Christ we would all be Jewish. Messiah was a Mild Eastern Orthadox Israelite.

  26. Lots of Church's mist treat the jews!

  27. Church Doctrines mostly are not Bible based either.

  28. Bible lies: Now Drinking/No dancing !
    Read psalms 149/150.

    For all they Baptists out there

  29. "Church's mist treat the jews!"

    "mist treat" - Jews are so hot, they must be cooled down:)

  30. RE: the Torah-observant attending a mainline Christian church

    Are there any examples of an Apostle, or any Saint, going to Caesar's Sunday services?!

    Paul talked to the pagans in public forums and invited them to hear Moses being preached (and the Gospel) on the Sabbaths, didn't he?


  31. Me thinks that Anonymous is a "poster boy" for something. Will anyone here take on his rants?

  32. Nahhh...We have our hands full of your rants....LOL!


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