Our survival depends on religious approval?

Eyebrow-raising [paraphrase] quote over at Derek Leman’s blog today. Derek is live blogging from the Hashivenu forum in Los Angeles, a Messianic forum held by the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute (MJTI). He paraphrases MJTI leader Mark Kinzer:

Kinzer’s paper wraps up with a description of Messianic Jewish theology as a protest against the boundary drawn by mainstream Judaism against the deity of Yeshua. There are other boundary breakers too, such as the Lubavitch who believe their deceased rebbe is divine.

Kinzer says that MJ will only survive if we succeed in our protest against the boundaries. If MJ is never credited as a Judaism, but is always regarded as avodah zara [idolatry], then we will likely fade away in time. [Emphasis mine]

Holy cow. Did you fine blog readers catch that? Kinzer is saying if Messianic Judaism is never credited as an authentic Judaism by the mainstream Jewish world, the Messianic movement will perish.

To put it another way, our survival depends on approval of Jewish religious leadership.

A more explicit version is, our survival depends on men’s opinions of us.

Can you imagine any of the apostles making such a statement?

And Peter said, "Brothers, you know well that the Sanhedrin routinely persecutes those who love our Master and Lord, Yeshua. But we must gain their approval by defying the boundaries they have instituted. Only then will we survive."

-Imaginary Peter

But this shouldn’t come as a surprise. We’ve witnessed hints of this in the past years.

Inferiority Complex Rearing Its Ugly Head

Months ago, I argued Messianic Judaism has an inferiority complex. We’re so damn insecure about ourselves: ooh noes, we’re not Jewish enough, not enough liturgy, not enough rote prayer, too much Evangelicalism, too many Yeshua flags and dancing, not enough siddurs. Ooh noes, we’ve got too many undesirables (read: gentiles) in our midst.

We’re looking for approval from the in-crowd. And it’s about as Scriptural as bilateral ecclesiology. (…we’ll save that for another discussion.)

When I wrote that inferiority complex post months ago, one of you fine blog readers protested,

Can you show me who and where says that getting "accepted" by our non-Yeshua Jewish brothers is the goal of Messianic Jewish movement? Hogwash!

Hogwash, eh? I’ll take bazinga for $400, Alex.

Of course, this single paraphrased statement from Kinzer is just one in a continuing show of hands, a growing sect of the Messianic movement that sees Jewish acceptance as critical for our faith.

Oddly, the 2 most vocal voices on the web for this idea are also gentiles who are trying to formally convert to Messianic Judaism through MJTI.

Come to think of it, every person I’ve talked to who has taken MJTI classes comes out talking this talk.

MJTI aren’t the only ones. I sense this same inferiority complex among members of some UMJC-affiliated groups, and even some independent groups to a lesser extent.

Honest Questions

For those that think our survival depends on our acceptance within the larger Jewish world, I ask, where's the leading of the Spirit? What's the role of God's lead in the Messianic movement?

Seriously.

If our movement is really from God himself, Spirit-led for these prophecy-fulfilling times, with the goal of the restoration of all Israel, don’t you think that God, that great shepherd of the sheep, will care for us, no matter what other people think of us?

Remember what happened 2000 years ago? God’s spirit was leading Messiah’s disciples, and in retrospect, they were spot-on in what they said:

Peter and the apostles answered the religious court,

"We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging Him on a tree. God exalted Him at His right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

When they heard this they were enraged and wanted to kill them.

But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, held in honor by all the people, stood up and ordered the men to be put outside for a while. And he said to them,

"Men of Israel, take care what you do with these men. … in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!"

Is Messianic Judaism an undertaking of men? If so, it will fail. If it’s of God, we’ll not be overthrown nor subverted. Even if the greater Jewish world despises us for our trusting in Messiah, and our exalting him as King of Israel, worshipping him as the Son of God.

I believe it’s from God. That big spark in the Jesus Movement of the 1970s, where Jews and gentiles came en masse to the realization the Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel, wow. That was something. That was God-at-work. It created Messianic Jews, and Torah observant gentiles. And people were wondering what happened, trying to make sense of it all.

Now we’re trying to formalize, settle down, make a religion out of it. At some point, the Jewish sect decided it didn’t really care for gentiles, and encouraged gentiles to go back to the church. Theologies were created and espoused that let them do this.

Now here we are, 40 odd years later, with a lot of strife between Jewish Messianic Judaism and the wider independent Messianic movement. And a potential for Yeshua-denial coming in the future.

The Bait

It should be said plainly: short of a miracle from God, Messianic Judaism won’t be accepted by mainstream Judaism, nor by the larger Jewish world.

At least, not as long as Yeshua is Lord.

Erase Yeshua as divine Lord, King of Yisrael, the glorified Son of God who sits at God’s right hand, who is Israel’s savior, offering forgiveness of sins, the one who gives repentance to Israel… deny him, and then, and only then, will the Jewish world accept Messianic Judaism. It has to deny Yeshua.

And that bait will be ever-so-tempting should more of Judaism’s leaders, like the modern Sanhedrin’s emissary to the Noahides, allow for Yeshua’s disciples to be accepted into the Israelite nation provided they deny Yeshua’s divinity.

The MJTI and Hashivenu have done marvelous work for the Lord, it’s true, great work for Messiah and his kingdom. More than I’ve ever done. God bless them for it. MJTI and Hashivenu are from God.

But my fear and prediction for the MJTI is, in the years to come, a split will take place, as some will take a leap backwards and rehash a theology, leading many astray, that Yeshua is something less than what the gospels make him out to be, something less than God. They’ll trade paradise for men’s approval.

It won’t be a “oh, we’re rejecting Yeshua” clear-cut thing.

It will be a gradual, easy-on-the-ears, “We have this theology, you see, where Yeshua is Messiah, but all this other stuff about him being divine, that’s misguided nonsense. Here are some proof texts from the New Testament. Now go on your way.”

It will be palatable to a lot of people. It will sound good to those looking for approval. It will be utterly divisive and lead many astray.

Fine blog readers, am I off my rocker? Are my fears unfounded?

39 comments:

  1. "Fine blog readers, am I off my rocker?"

    Is this a trick question, Judah?

    In all seriousness, however, I do think that you've jumped (exceptionally high this time) to premature conclusions, once again. My understanding of what Kinzer is saying is that Messianic Judaism must work to break the long-held Jewish assumption that believing in the DIVINE Messiah is "avodah zara" (or "foreign/idol worship"). It has nothing to do with getting acceptance through compromise (as you've been implying in your blog over and over) - it has everything to do with activelly challenging the current notion that Messiah in the flesh cannot be G-d, or that it's not a Jewish thing, but a Gentile/Christian concept. If our people continue to regard this as a foreign concept, they will never accept it as a nation (thankfully, they will, eventually), and if they don't, we may fade away again and be absorbed into the much larger Gentile faith expression .... wait for it... just like the first century's Messianic Judaism faded away through rejection of Jews and with influx of Gentiles (did it not?).

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  2. Right, Kinzer isn't advocating we compromise on Yeshua's divinity. Not that I've heard, at least.

    I just wonder -- for a group so adamantly desiring "credibility as a real Judaism", looking at that idea as a crux for our very survival, I do think there will be the temptation to compromise, deny Yeshua (in soft, palatable ways), and gain that crucial acceptance.

    In reality, Judaism accepting MJ is an unachievable goal, short of bare-right-arm-of-the-Lord kind of stuff.

    I do hope I'm wrong about my prediction. I think Dauermann and a number of the men in leadership there are men of God, led by God. I hope they prevail.

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  3. "a group so adamantly desiring "credibility as a real Judaism""

    I am not shy to say that I deeply want that too - because I am a Jew who wants to be part of the "real Judaism" and be with my people. Yeshua, THE JEW, himself longed to be accepted by his own people, he even cried over them - but not so that he can feel better about himself, but because being a Jew he too belongs with his own people and wants the best for them - even if he's rejected by some of them.

    I am a realist, however. I am adamantly unwilling to compromise on Yeshua over anything and I know that the fine folks over at UMJC/MJTI feel the same away. If I were to reject Yeshua, I might as well walk over to that Orthodox shul I like and stay there permanently - and I will be welcomed with open arms. Why on earth would I want to stick around Messianic Judaism if I were to deny Yeshua?

    "I do hope I'm wrong about my prediction. I think Dauermann and a number of the men in leadership there are men of God, led by God. I hope they prevail."

    If that really is the case with you, just relax and wait for G-d to do his work through these G-dly men and through us.

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  4. Regarding Kinzer and his outlook on the divinity of Yeshua and the Nicene Creed, Leman quotes Kinzer as saying Messianic Judaism should,

    "take the “two communal traditions as one ruptured whole” and “perform a tikkun — a repair of what was broken.”

    Ok, sounds nice, but what does that *mean*?

    To remove the marketing speak, I'd interpret that as, "We should take Jewish and Christian ideas of the divinity and merge them into something that works for both religions." [Unspoken: and thus, MJ can be accepted among the Jewish world.]

    I mean, what's the end result of repairing what was broken? And what, exactly, is broken with the idea of Yeshua as divine, glorified Son of God, which the gospels make him out to be, which we currently proclaim?

    I am again wondering if what Kinzer has in mind is a compromise on Yeshua's divinity - something that can be accepted by Judaism, yet doesn't outright deny Yeshua.

    Example: "Yeshua is the anointed one of God. But Yeshua should not be glorified, worshiped, or prayed to."

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  5. Gene, I'm glad that you're a [loud] voice that won't compromise on Yeshua. I suspect Dauermann and Resnik wouldn't either.

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  6. Judah,

    Bravo! Kudus! Great post!

    Only disagree with you on one thing, Messianic Judaism UMJC, and MJTI style are not from God. This movement is on its deathbed. I wish you drop the politness and just tell it like it is.

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  7. I promised 2010 I wouldn't pull any punches. MJTI and UMJC are from God, in my view, and I'm not saying that just to be polite.

    Resnik came from the Jesus Movement of the 1970s. UMJC is his calling. He is working towards Messiah's kingdom. I sense in his writings authentic love for God and longing for God's spirit to renew the Messianic movement.

    Dauermann is a guy who genuinely loves the Lord. Longtime servant of Messiah. I can hear it in his teachings, it comes across in his writings. I recently discovered he's written many songs now used in Messianic circles, and even in some churches. I recognized a number of them.

    They both have done more work for God than I ever have, or likely will. Of course they have my respect, and their organizations, with all their flaws, are nonetheless from God.

    That's my view.

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  8. An excellent post Judah.

    I don't doubt the sincerity or motives of Kinzer, but it seems to me like the MJTI are measuring Messianic Judaism against Judaism and not against Messiah.

    It's a shame because it's totally stifling the creativity of some very gifted and talented teachers in the MJTI circle.

    If the MJTI would drop its pretence to be accepted by establishment Judaism - something that Yeshua never achieved - then I think it would be a very healing experience for them before anyone else.

    I sense MJTI Messianic Jews are anxious to be accepted within Judaism, and this anxiety must be suffocating for them.

    I think MJTI Messianic Jews can have Torah observance, Judaism, halakhah, etc., but none of that will guarantee acceptance.

    We shouldn't do anything to gain acceptance in the eyes of anyone, we should do things because we genuinely think it's the right thing to do.

    Final point: why do we need to work to break this assumption about a divine Messiah?

    Lubavitch and Breslov are doing all the hard work for us!

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  9. Judah,

    You are contradicting yourself. When you say that Bilateral Ecclesiology is not Scriptural, then How can it be from God?

    I never said that Kinzer or Dauermann are not godly, or that they don't believe in what they are teaching, I say that their organizations, and their teaching are not from God. There is a difference.

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  10. "If the MJTI would drop its pretence to be accepted by establishment Judaism - something that Yeshua never achieved - then I think it would be a very healing experience for them before anyone else."

    Yeze... I don't think anyone at MJTI/UMJC has illusions about whether or not Messianic Judaism will be embraced or at least accepted until Yeshua comes.

    What they do believe is that only Yeshua the Messiah (whose divinity they have affirmed over and over - probably to counter false accusations) should be the stumbling block for the Jewish people.

    "I think MJTI Messianic Jews can have Torah observance, Judaism, halakhah, etc., but none of that will guarantee acceptance."

    Only shallow people practice their faith in just to be accepted by others. Yeze, do you observe Christmas just so that other Christians accept you as their own, or do you do this because you love Jesus and want to celebrate his birth?

    So, why do you think Messianic Jews live observant lives just for the sake of approval of others? We do not - I don't care who approves or doesn't. Let's apply the same standard, without hypocrisy, please.

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  11. Dan,

    Yeah. I think God uses organizations whose theology is flawed. How could it be any other way?

    For example, the Church is from God, despite its theology and actions, past and present.

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  12. Yeze, you said:

    >> Final point: why do we need to work to break this assumption about a divine Messiah? Lubavitch and Breslov are doing all the hard work for us!

    LOL!

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  13. Judah,

    Is the LDS Church from God?

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  14. You and Gene think alike. (I can't believe I just wrote that.)

    A few years ago, I told Gene the Two House sub-movement was from God. Gene responded, just as you did,

    "Is [x] from God?"

    Where x is some cult.

    I don't equate MJTI with the LDS church, please!

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  15. By the way, Dan, I'm still waiting for you to start that blog.

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  16. "You and Gene think alike."

    Don't insult me like that, Judah, I thought you'd play nice this year:)

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  17. Judah,

    You did not answer my question. I did not ask you to equate various groups.

    As far as a blog, I have a lot to write, it is just that I am a complete computer illitarate. I need some teaching, are you available?

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  18. Dan,

    To answer your question, "is the LDS from God?", my answer is no, it's not, for what I hope are obvious reasons.

    Absolutely I can help you get setup with a blog. Email me at judahgabriel@gmail.com and I can help you out. Alternately, if you're on Facebook, we can chat there, I'm facebook.com/judahgabriel.

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  19. Incidentally, as a Gentile believer, please do not shy away from raising such questions about either side of the family. There's a lot of healing that needs to take place, and it will not happen as long as we sweep things under to rug.

    I know that the unwillingness to have a frank and open dialog about past hurts and current / future remedies is a big part of the Black community's division with the rest of America. Let us not repeat America's errors within either Christianity or Judaim. Get it out in the open, where we can acknowledge our failings and work to bridge the divide.

    -- W^L+ (lnxwalt on WordPress, Twitter, Jaiku, Identica, Plurk, Xanga, Vox, Typepad, ...)

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  20. Incidentally, as a Gentile believer, please do not shy away from raising such questions about either side of the family. There's a lot of healing that needs to take place, and it will not happen as long as we sweep things under to rug.

    I know that the unwillingness to have a frank and open dialog about past hurts and current / future remedies is a big part of the Black community's division with the rest of America. Let us not repeat America's errors within either Christianity or Judaim. Get it out in the open, where we can acknowledge our failings and work to bridge the divide.

    -- W^L+ (lnxwalt on WordPress, Twitter, Jaiku, Identica, Plurk, Xanga, Vox, Typepad, ...)

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  21. Incidentally, as a Gentile believer, please do not shy away from raising such questions about either side of the family. There's a lot of healing that needs to take place, and it will not happen as long as we sweep things under to rug.

    I know that the unwillingness to have a frank and open dialog about past hurts and current / future remedies is a big part of the Black community's division with the rest of America. Let us not repeat America's errors within either Christianity or Judaim. Get it out in the open, where we can acknowledge our failings and work to bridge the divide.

    I'm not sure whether this is posting. Your captcha seems to be broken.

    -- W^L+ (lnxwalt on WordPress, Twitter, Jaiku, Identica, Plurk, Xanga, Vox, Typepad, ...)

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  22. My 'survival' (read 'salvation') depends entirely upon the Master Himself (more re. Him later).

    I am neither a Jew nor Christian (although I was born and raised as a Roman Catholic).

    After much (focused) study and deep contemplation as it concerns the 'documentation' pertaining to Jesus Barabbas and the 'messiah', I have an alternative view...

    Beginning with the establishing of the 'Jewish' nation... much to the prophet Samuel's dismay, Saul, -of the tribe of Benjamin, was the first 'anointed' king of the Jews.
    King Saul was rebuked as 'king' by the (unseen) Lord (for failing to anathematize Agag), -nevertheless, retained leadership of the military and the continuous war against the Philistines. King Saul was replaced by David, of the tribe of Judah. Saul eventually "fell upon his own sword" (ostensibly, to avoid being captured by the Philistines.) King David was succeeded by the 'anointment' of his son Solomon. King Solomon was succeeded by his son Rehoboam... ten tribes revolted away from Rehoboam (and, the heretofore 'theocratic' governance of David and Solomon. Rehoboam was not 'anointed'. Jeroboam established a parallel 'secular' government... thus marginalizing Rehoboam authority. This schism among the 'Jews' continued down through the centuries... into the days of the Roman installed and supported Herod (an Edomite or Idumean) the Great.

    Enter 'the descendant of David and Jewish 'messiah'... riding into Jerusalem on an ass, -come to restore the ancient 'theocracy' of his fore-fathers. (I have very strong doubts that his name was "Jesus" (or, "Yeshua"), -rather, Judas the Galilean (even though he died during the insurrection years earlier... but the 'insurrection' over the struggle of 'theocracy' v. 'secularism' until the wealthy and educated Jews scattered themselves abroad, the temple at Jerusalem was razed to the ground (save 'the western or 'Wailing Wall') and the nation ceased to exists... in 70 c. e.

    In that the 'Jews' do not regard or accept that one man is more 'divine' than any other, -likewise, the (actual) 'Son of God' does not involve Himself with politics or governments. His 'work', so to speak, is strictly spiritual... private and personal among His 'disciples'.

    "Jesus Barabbas", originally written in the Greek Gospel according or attributed to Matthew (27:17), -but that His name was removed or omitted from the Latin translation of the same text and most of the subsequent translations thereafter... leaving us (later peoples) with only "Barabbas" instead. Barabbas is not a proper or surname, -rather, it is an Aramaic appellation, the meaning of which is: Bar = Son + Abba = Father (as in 'the Father of us all' or, 'God', if you will).
    He was 'chosen' over the demand that the 'Jewish messiah' be crucified (for no other reason than that he (Judas the Galilean) was indeed 'the (hoped-for) messiah'... most 'Jews' did (and still don't) want a government run by priests.

    Meanwhile, despite that "Jesus Barabbas" (the 'Son of God')is portrayed (in the Gospels) as "a notorious robber, murderer and insurrectionist" (without evidence, much less proof), we know next to nothing whatsoever about Him.

    "Jesus Christ" is a literary confluence of "Jesus [Barabbas] and "Judas the Galilean" (the descendant and Jewish messiah).

    ... my two copper-plated two cents... that cost more to mint than they are worth.

    Roland, -a reluctant iconoclast.

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  23. Judah:

    I think your objection is intelligent and deserves a response, so I will blog about it tomorrow. But you took a rather quick-to-condemn without asking questions stance. I could have answered you if you had asked. It's alright. I love you anyway, even if you rush to judgment sometimes.

    Yeze:

    Measuring against Judaism and not Messiah? Did you read my article? Read it again. Kinzer affirms everything Nicaea affirms. How is Kinzer compromising on Yeshua? If you make a charge against us, it should be based on reality.

    Ben Zvi:

    Your credibility has for a long time been at the zero mark. MJTI is dying? Dude, we had a large conference of the best scholars in Messianic Judaism, people who actually get Masters and PhD degrees from places like Cambridge, Hebrew University, and so on. What does your cadre have in terms of academic credibility?

    Everyone:

    JudaH is a great guy, but he has some buttons that when pushed set him off. The idea of MJ insecurity and need for approval sets him off. I understand why. But I wish he had read me more charitably. See my blog tomorrow for more.

    Derek Leman

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  24. I think sometimes it is an inferiority complex, a desire to fit in, but other times people just want to be legitimate Judaism--the faith of Israel; and that's a good thing!
    For those people who are in it for that, they're in it for the truth, may they make it all the way. But don't get me wrong, there are others who don't want to consider faith in Rabi Yehoshua` Judaism (which is absurd, btw, who could fathom that following any Rabbi would not entail following Judaism?), but they are still just as much searching for the ultimate truth. May they also make it all the way in HaShem's timing. They're just a little misguided at the moment.

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  25. Hi Derek,

    I had actually posted this as a comment to your blog. But it got so long, I thought it deserved its own post.

    I read your response. I'll do my response as a separate blog post.

    Take care, enjoy your stay in LA.

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  26. I haven't read all of the comments (there are tons), but I am reminded of Galatians 1:10: "Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ".

    Where to we get our "legitimacy" as believers...from some particular religious group, or from God? If we seek to please God and approach His Word honestly and with an open heart, while we may not be accepted as a "Judaism", we will be accepted by God and Messiah.

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  27. Aaron,

    I've long thought Yeshua faith as a Judaism. It certainly was for Messiah's disciples.

    The part about "being accepted by the Jewish world, or perish" is what bothers me. It's a noble goal, but it's unattainable. Unachievable.

    The only way we get accepted by the Jewish world is if we deny Yeshua, or compromise on who he is: the glorified Son of God, emanation of HaShem, sitting at the right hand of God, who has been given "all power and glory and honor" in heaven and earth.

    As long as Yeshua is Lord, the Jewish world will look on us with contempt.

    That's my take.

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  28. I appreciate the concerns that Judah has written about, because there is a possible issue that in so wanting to be accepted by Messianic Judaism, some Messianic Jews may decide to compromise on serious Biblical doctrines. I personally think it is too close to tell anything right now regarding any organization, but I know from interactions with various Messianic Jewish individuals over the years--they do feel that any affirmation of Yeshua as Divine Savior has to go.

    As always, the challenge when you disagree with someone, or have strong concerns, is to see where you yourself can improve. I have not hidden my disapproval of the "bilateral ecclesiology" that I feel is growing in Messianic Judaism, yet I also have significant disagreements with people in the Two-House and One Law sub-movements as well. My solution? Focus on what God has given me to do. How can I improve in His service? Do I have to be a little more self-critical, before I talk about what I think is wrong with others?

    I think that Messianic Judaism, regardless of what happens here or there, is definitely going to accomplish some positive things for the Lord (even if it takes a very long time). But whether it, or any of us as Messiah followers, accomplishes all of the things He wants us to achieve, is probably too big a question to be answered in a blog. How big, or small, do we consider the mission of God to be?

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  29. Adam, don't spam, please. You've posted that exact text on other blogs. It's off topic here.

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  30. Why does this need to be an either/or (fidelity to Messiah vs. acceptance within Judaism)?

    "And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people." Acts 2:46-47a

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  31. "I know from interactions with various Messianic Jewish individuals over the years--they do feel that any affirmation of Yeshua as Divine Savior has to go."

    J.K. McKee, can you elaborate? Are you saying that there is trend among born Jews within Messianic Judaism to push for removal of divinity from Yeshua? I certainly have never encountered that, while at the same time I've met many "messianic" Gentiles who are indeed pushing for this, and I've seen many of them commenting on Judah's blog as well.

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  32. Gene, as I have said, this comes from interactions with various Messianic Jewish individuals, mostly who are just people with no teaching or leadership positions. It is something that I have experienced (I concede that you may not have), and at present I would doubt that it would take place on any large organizational level.

    And yes, there are non-Jewish people involved in Messianic things who are eager to make Yeshua only a human Messiah as well. They are a problem as well.

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  33. Derek - sorry, don't mean to misrepresent Kinzer here - my first point was badly worded.

    It's not what Kinzer believes here that's the problem, it's how he perceives it relates with the wider Jewish world, and where/how Messianic Judaism fits in - the idea that Messianic Judaism depends on being accepted by Judaism, as if this were the main criteria for sustaining our movement.

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  34. Derek,

    So now it is about who has more degrees, ha? No wonder you teachiung is bankropt.... And you have the chutzpah to talk credibility?

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  35. It's good to see passion and conviction in the younger crowd, even if Judah seems to be "over-reacting" only to shadows of what might be. However, if Judah's statements and tenor seem impolitic to some, they are no more so than Kinzer's. Such a comment as he made should not have been put in print and then amplified so much on the web by others.

    It is politically advantgeous and important for MJ to be recognized. That being said it is incredibly impolitic for a key political objective to be so announced and then the lack of attaining that goal declared ruinous. Some of Singer's people, Chabadniks and others patrol these blogs. Such comments only help to direct opposition.

    There are those who move within Judaism proper and are Messianic. They don't see any reason to join the congregational movement, but their goals and efforts don't need to be compromised by these negative visions either.

    I strongly suggest that the owners of these blogs consider removing this particular topic.

    Shalom,

    David

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  36. Hello David,

    You're well-spoken, and you offer some wise advice. I know as fact some of the things you've said are true.

    You recommend I delete this blog post, eh? Talk to me, judahgabriel@gmail.com

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  37. @Derek, I went to Cambridge so follow my blog..... Idiot! @Judah LOL "Imaginary Peter" ha love it! and finaly who cares what anti-missionary orthodox Jews read on messi blogs? Good for them!?

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  38. I read there stuff all the time!

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