Import jQuery

Yeshua is the Son of God

I intended to write this as comment in response to the discussion going in Weekly Bracha 9, discussing the idea of Messiah-as-Lord, but instead it grew into something deserving of its own post.

Yeshua made some remarkable statements in the gospels. Big, huge, theology-shattering statements. Statements that nip-in-the-bud beliefs that downplay Messiah as anything short of divine.

Here are a few. After each statement, I wrote down the first thought and immediate conclusion that comes to my mind:

  • "I and the Father are one."
    -Messiah and God are united.

  • "He who has seen me has seen the Father."
    -
    Seeing Messiah is seeing God.

  • "No one comes to the Father but by me."
    -Humanity comes to God only by Messiah's will.

  • "All power on heaven and earth have been given unto me."
    -Messiah is omnipotent (all-powerful).

  • "The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."
    -Judgment belongs to Messiah.

  • "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
    -God draws humanity to Messiah, and Messiah will raise his flock from the dead in the end times.

  • “Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
    -
    Messiah gives everlasting life.

  • -"If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
    -Knowing Messiah = knowing God.

  • "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
    -
    Messiah has the power to keep all men who turn to him, and he gives them eternal life.

  • "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
    -
    Messiah reveals God to others.

  • All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
    -Messiah is the master of all. God and Messiah are intertwined.

  • Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
    -Acknowledging Messiah results in mercy before the heavenly court. Messiah is a divine, everlasting mediator.

  • Whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
    -Disowning Messiah will result in judgment. Messiah has been given the power of judgment.


Whatever view of Messiah one has, one must reconcile that view with these statements from the gospels, from Yeshua himself. These statements betray the those who wish to paint Yeshua as anything less than the all-powerful, glorified Son of God the gospels make him out to be.

42 comments:

  1. Some thoughts about the relationship between YHWH and Yeshua and what that means to us having been expressed rather nicely by the emissary to the nations.


    "Therefore we know no one after the flesh from now on. Even though we have known Messiah after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.

    Therefore if anyone is in Messiah, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

    But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Yeshua the Messiah, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    namely, that God was in Messiah reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.

    We are therefore ambassadors on behalf of Messiah, as though God were entreating by us. We beg you on behalf of Messiah, be reconciled to God.

    For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

    Yeshua the man is the means provided by YHWH for our Father in heaven to have direct access to us and for us to have direct access to Him.

    Since no one can forgive sins except YHWH, and Yeshua forgave sins while here on earth, I would think that it would be obvious to most that the whole idea of a "lesser YHWH" is both wrong and a dangerous path to take.

    If Yeshua was not "YHWH in the flesh" then we are still in our sins and have no hope of eternal life.

    Efrayim

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hi Judah,

    Just thought it was interesting that of the 13 verses you quoted, 8 came from John:)

    Not to get into an argument about whether or not John is reliable, but just wanted to mention it.

    Blessings,

    Daniel

    ReplyDelete
  3. ou couldn't have picked better Scriptures.

    @Christian4Moses, where else do you go but John, for a glorious glance into the wonder of the Divinity of Christ :)

    ReplyDelete
  4. Yeah, Daniel, 8 are from John, and some of them are repeated in the other gospels. Just wanted to mention it. ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  5. Interesting. Don't know if I just want to respond or use this as the basis for an article on my congregation's blog. It certainly could start quite a discussion.

    I will note that you made some small assumptions in some of your commentary or at least incomplete statements ("The Father and I are one", I usually interpret as "one in purpose" as opposed to some sort of "zen-like oneness").

    I'll have to think about it.

    ReplyDelete
  6. James,

    My quick "one liner" thought was the first conclusion that came to mind. I didn't give it the deep, contextual study they deserve. (And I'm sure Daniel would chide me for it.)

    So yeah, there may be parts where Judah's Instant Interpretation® might not be 100% accurate. :-)

    ReplyDelete
  7. First, let me emphatically state that I do not deny the deity of Jesus/Yeshua.

    In regards to the I and the Father are one from John. It is speaking more of unity. (much as Jesus and the Taladim/Discples were one)

    "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[5] believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
    (Joh 17:20-24 NKJV)


    Yet I guess that the question that I am still working through.

    The word for Christ or Annointed one - from the Hebrew for messiah.

    Strongs/BDB H4899 משׁיח
    mâshîyach

    The Tanach in Isa 45:1 refers to Cyrus as Mashiyach or Messiah.
    In the Judeo/Christian realm with see emphasis or tunnel vision focus on Jesus in Christainity, on the Holy Spirit amongest the Charsimatics/Pentacostals. In Judism with focus on the Father (which is intresting consider a person is only a father if he has offspring). Yet are they that far off? I think that they might just have that correct in the present.

    We see in the Brit - that Jesus neither rejected but also did'nt command / demand worship.

    Yet we see Jesus constantly defer to the Father.

    Yet Psa 110 is referenced in three of the Gospels and Acts and Hebrews.

    This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
    "The LORD said to my Lord,
    "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."'[6]
    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
    (Act 2:32-36 NKJV)


    We are the Bride of the Messiah - yet we are simply betrothed until the marriage supper.

    The first chapter of Hebrews refers to the future and not the present.

    Is Jesus still sitting at the right hand of the Father? or is He now the King of kings, and peace on earth?

    Not yet.

    Just as I saw many things in the Tanach when I worshiped on Sundays in the church, so I now see many things in the Brit now that I guard the covenant and commandments.

    Is the focus supposed to be on Salvation or Obedience or Loving HaShem with all of ones heart, strength and might?

    We are far from Yirat Adonai or the Fear of the Lord - We are Buddy status with HaShem - i.e.
    What a Friend we have in Jesus, and lack the proper respect for the King of the Universe. I consider the Monarchy ( as toothless and more symbolic as it is today in England) as a better albiet poor representation of how we should view HaShem.

    Gone are the days that the King could take you head simply because he could.

    Yet it is that Attitude we should have - when we consider He spoke and it was - the Universe, Earth, etc.

    Sorry to digress, Yes, Jesus is the Son of God - but His Father is Still the King of the Universe and has not handed the Throne to the Son--Yet.

    Who does one or who should one Worship The King or the Prince?


    Am I heretic Yet?

    Shalom,
    Jacob

    ReplyDelete
  8. Jacob,

    It is not the Father who hands the throne to His Son, but rather the Son who delivers up the kingdom He has won to His Father.

    Yeshua has been given the authority to act on behalf of His Father in all matters concerning this present age. We worship the Father through the Son and the Son for having redeemed us from death and giving us life, eternal life.

    You seem confused. From where do you get your teaching?

    Efrayim

    ReplyDelete
  9. Is. 45:5-8
    I [am] HaShem, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] HaShem, and [there is] none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I HaShem do all these [things]. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I HaShem have created it.

    Num. 23:19
    God is not a man... nor a 'son of man'(Hebrew idiom for the term 'human being')...

    We simply need to understand all these statements that Rabi Yehoshua` made in the context of Torah and Judaism.

    The reason there is such confusion is because there is even a "Y-H-W-H" in the Tanakh that the Aramaic targumim render differently as "the Word of Y-H-W-H" while in other place they leave it just "Y-H-W-H". The reason is, the Aramaic targumim reflect rabbinic thought of the time. This same concept of "two Y-H-W-Hs", while not actually being two, appears in the Kabbalistic concept of "the lesser Y-H-W-H".

    In either case, in the targumim (which would have been read to the Acts 15 gentiles every Sabbath in the Synagogue), the "Word of HaShem" can be linked directly to the head Malakh/Messender/Angel of HaShem, who represents His likeness and is set over all creation.

    This is clearly the correct understanding through which to interpret what Yehoshua` said--rather than from an entirely Roman pagan idea of man-gods.
    This is what I mean the Messianic movement in general being a Hellenizing force which falls completely out of character with the real Rabi Yehoshua`. Its sad people will blindly pick Roman paganism over a Torah-based fact just because they've been taught that its the right thing and if they believe otherwise they're heretical.

    Its also sad that people can't say "wow, this original Jewish understanding from the time of Yeshua about the 'Word of God' which the NT reflects all the time--this is just amazing, certainly Christianity has been in error believing instead in a form of Roman paganism! I want to believe the truth and get rid of any false beliefs about this; especially since I now see the Torah says that God is not a man nor a son of man."

    ReplyDelete
  10. In the context of Judaism and Torah, what's your understand of the following quote from Yeshua?

    “Whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.”

    ReplyDelete
  11. "Whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

    Well first of all, it takes to know Yehoshua` before you can "disown" him. The primary people who will know Yehoshua` are the sick, not the healthy (Matt.9:10-13), therefore the non-observant among the Jewish people along with those of the lost tribes--and the purpose is to lead them back to observance of the Torah. If they disown that salvation from a life of failure to observe the commands, they are perhaps unfortunately disowned from a place in `olam haba.

    ReplyDelete
  12. For clear proof that "faith in Yeshua" is synonymous with observance of the Torah (they are indeed one path, which is the path to `olam haba, eternal life), check this out:
    http://www.betemunah.org/salvation.html

    ReplyDelete
  13. Efrayim

    "You seem confused. From where do you get your teaching?"

    From the internet of course, so it has to be true. (SAID Tongue in cheek).

    No, actually it was much in the same manner that I tranistioned to Torah observance (for obedience not for salvation) - after close to 40 years in the Sunday Church.

    It was through personal study, and I had too many questions that I saw in the Torah - that all the responses "tended to all be the same party line". "nailed to the cross, Legalism,....etc"

    It was over ten years with the gentle prompting of the Holy Spirti that the evidence against many of the dogmas and doctrines of man and denominations, that I finally looked into finding a fellowship that worshiped more like the 1st century church did.
    It was'nt a person or a message that moved me, rather the soverign moving of YHVH.

    That being said I have become even more of a Beran (Acts 17:11), and no longer accept everything that I hear as the truth - I now follow in the steps of the Berans of the Book Acts, and search the scriptures to see if the things being taught are so.

    I have had to re-examine with prayer and digging in to the scriptures.

    Many beliefs and teachings that I had blindly accepted.

    Paul in his letter to Thessalonica told us to test all things and retain what is valuable or true.

    I have seen and and heard a lot, over the decades.

    Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good.
    (1Th 5:16-21 NKJV)

    So I can respect the fact that you may disagree or think that I am confused. I understand that thier are Unitarian , Binitarian, as well as the Trinity points of veiw.

    Yet I do not belive that this issue that I share is a core salvational issue, in that I am not denying the Divinty/Diety of Jesus/Yeshusa.

    Shalom
    Jacob

    ReplyDelete
  14. Aharon & Judah,

    I think that that we can see truth in both POV (points of view).

    I think evangelism to the two tribes and Levi/Kohens should be one of passive rather than active evangelism. It is our lives and our zeal that will open the door - to share a Torah observant position of Yeshua as the Messiah -

    As opposed to the aggressive methods that have been used in the past as well as the present day.

    I know that many in the Sunday Church believe that those in Yehudism are lost and without hope of Salvation/redemption -esp if they openly deny Yeshua as Savior or Messiah -considering a tenant of forgiveness is bloodshed and since the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 CE. - No shedding of blood no redemption.

    Yet, I propose that Salvation has always been about Emuna and Kavannah or Faith and Intent of the Heart.

    I submit this to you for consideration, some may believe that unless someone has a "Personal relationship with Yeshua" they have no hope of redemption or salvation.

    I think that many will be surprised on judgment day. That some in the church only had fire insurance and many of those outside of the church actually had relationship and committed to relationship with the Father. ( If you only spent 2 hours a week around your spouse what kind of relationship would you have?)

    If the premise that the destruction of the Temple and no shed blood for transgression of sin. No personal sacrifice or annual scapegoat for Yom Kippur for the "Community or Qahal".

    That argument would mean that the Tzaddik or Godly man Daniel in exile would be in hell since the temple was destroyed and no Temple sacrifice. -Selah

    Yet I also submit that one could lay their hands on a lamb to be sacrificed and not have a repentant heart or a heart that had returned to YHVH, for He looks at the heart of man.

    Salvation has always been about faith, confession, heart intent and turning (Tseuva) back to YHVH.

    Just as those of us with children know sincerity of the words of our kids.

    Abraham, was a man of faith, and his salvation was faith based.

    Even though he Sacrificed some 430 years (+/-) before the reiteration of the Torah to Moses. ( I say this because how did young Issac, know to ask where is the lamb for sacrifice on Mount Moriah?)

    We even see Able bringing forth from his flocks for sacrifice.

    continued pt 2

    ReplyDelete
  15. pt 2 (sorry did'nt plan to say so much)


    I can understand why many that guard the covenant and Observe Torah in what is labeled as "Judahism" reject Jesus as the Messiah - with the way it is and has been presented - as well as all that has transgressed over the past two millennium.

    When many good intentioned Sunday worshiping christians can be more of a stumbling block in sharing Yeshua, why the message falls on deaf ears, when they breech so much of the covenant :
    Sabbath, Kosher, and so much of the ethical basis of Torah.

    The price is great to embrace Yeshua for those in Judahism (even those that are from families that are not observant ) they are shunned - while they might not be put to death like in Islam. The cost is step and the message carries no weight -because of the walk.

    In Judaism - they look to the Messiah as one like unto Moses from Deut. 18. The Sunday worship, Sabbath breaking, unkosher come and fail from the start- this is the Messiah that is presented and rejected - as "speaking in the names of other gods".

    If we are called to Judge righteously, how much more so is the King of the Universe able to do so.

    In the Tanch or the "Old Testament - the only hope of salvation for a "heathen / gentile " was to become a ger - one that dwelt among and embraced the Covenant of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The Covenant then was about blessings and curses ( not about Salvation or redemption) it is the same today - about Obedience. Yet it still goes to the Attitude of the Heart.

    Those that have never prayed or even read the Amidah or Shemoneh Esrei - would be shocked - to find much of that which we would call repentance - While I can't find a "sinners prayer" for Salvation in scripture. Just as one can pray the Amidah or the "sinners prayer" without Kavannah. Why did R. Shaul ( Apostle Paul) pray that he would not be shipwrecked and that he worked out his salvation with fear and trembling?

    I am not looking to cause strife or contention in sharing only to work toward restoring the breech that has come over the past two thousand years.

    Selah
    Jacob

    ReplyDelete
  16. "In the Tanch or the "Old Testament - the only hope of salvation for a "heathen / gentile" was to become a ger - one that dwelt among and embraced the Covenant of Abraham, Issac and Jacob."

    Ahem, Jacob... this is definitely not true. Noah was a righteous man in his generation - but according to you, he's supposedly hell-bound because he was not a "ger" within Israel? Another person who is almost universally thought to be a Gentile is Job - what of him? They all seemed to have had a fine relationship with G-d and were declared righteous before Him, all without the direct benefit of Abrahamic or Mosaic covenant (at least not during their lifetimes, I am not talking about the final redemption through Yeshua).

    However, I would say that it certainly true that MOST Gentiles were without hope before the coming of Yeshua, and certainly true for the Ephesians whom Paul was directly addressing, but it's certainly was not the case for ALL of the non-Jews (individuals) of the "Old Testament".

    ReplyDelete
  17. Another good example is the salvation of the Gentile citizens of Nineveh, who repented of their sins before G-d - all without become gers within Israel. Nineveh was a capital of the Assyrian empire, which is quite a distance from the nation of Israel - they certainly didn't dwell among Israelites or become Jewish proselytes.

    ReplyDelete
  18. There is Only ONE True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE has no g-d.......

    The Messiah bore witness unto "The Only True G-D".......

    And Truth IS, as Paul testified, "G-D was in The Messiah", Paul did not testify that 'g-d was the messiah'.......

    And Paul testified of "ONE G-D, Father of ALL".......

    The Messiah testified of, "The Only True G-D" and The Messiah testified that He had a "G-D and Father", HE WHO IS The ONE and Only True G-D, Father of ALL.......

    Paul testified, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in G-D, WHO CREATED ALL things by The Messiah".......(Eph3:9)

    And The Father(Creator) spoke "Let there be Light" and "there was Light".......

    LIGHT begot Light.......

    The Messiah, "The Light which enlightens every man", was "The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......(Rev 3:14)

    There is Only ONE True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE IS The G-D and Father(Creator) of The Messiah and His brethren.......

    John 17:3 "And this is Eternal Life, that they might know YOU The Only True G-D, and The Messiah, Whom YOU have sent".......

    Mark 12:32-33 "And the scribe said unto The Messiah, Well, Master, You have said The Truth: for there is ONE G-D; and there is NONE OTHER but HE. And to love HIM with all your heart, and with all your understanding, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and to love his neighbor as yourself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices".......

    Rom 3:30 "Seeing it is ONE G-D, WHO shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith".......

    1 Cor 8:6 "But to us there is but ONE G-D, The Father, of WHOM are all things, and we in HIM; and one Master, The Messiah, by Whom are all things, and we by Him".......

    Rev 3:14 The Messiah was "The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......

    Eph 4:6 "ONE G-D, Father of ALL, WHO is above all, and through all, and in you all".......

    John 4:24 "G-D is A SPIRIT: and they that worship HIM must worship HIM in Spirit and in Truth".......

    Luke 24:39 The Messiah testified after He was "raised from among the dead", "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, handle Me and see, for A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES, AS you see I HAVE".......

    The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL can not die.......period.......

    The Messiah died and "The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL raised Him from among the dead"....... And The Messiah's incorruptible body ascended into the clouds.......

    James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of G-D, for G-D CAN NOT BE TEMPTED with evil, neither tempts HE any man".......

    Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest(The Messiah) Who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, for He WAS in all points TEMPTED like we are, yet without sin".......

    The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE CAN NOT BE TEMPTED with sin AS THE MESSIAH WAS.......period.......

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  19. 1 Tim 2:5 "There is ONE G-D, and one mediator between G-D and men, the man-The Messiah".......

    James 2:19 "You believe that there is ONE G-D, you do well, yet the devils also believe, and tremble".......

    John 20:17 "The Messiah said unto her, Touch Me not; for I have not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My G-D, and your G-D."

    Mark 3:33-35 "The Messiah answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brethren"? And He looked round about on them which sat about Him, and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whoever shall do The Will of G-D, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother"".......

    Rom 8:29 "Whom G-D did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, that The Messiah might be the firstborn among many brethren".......

    Hope is you are one of the brethren of The Messiah.......

    The brethren of The Messiah know there is Only ONE True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    And Truth is as The Messiah tesified, " My(Our) Father is greater than I".......(John14:28)

    And Truth is as Paul testifed, "The HEAD of The Messiah is The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and The Head of the man is The Messiah, and the head of the woman is the man".......(1Cor11:3)

    Those who would pervert The Order of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL will have to answer to HIM.......

    For The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, "HE Created all things by The Messiah" and The Messiah was "The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    Truth is "The Messiah is The Son of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......

    The Messiah testified that He had a "G-D and Father" and that His "G-D and Father" was also the "G-D and Father" of His Brethren.......

    And The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE has no god, for HE IS G-D, and HE has no father, for HE IS Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE has no brethren, for HE IS Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "the love of The Truth" for they will "experience The Messiah and The Power(Our Father) that raised Him from among the dead".......

    The Faith of those who have received "a love of The Truth" is grounded in Miracles, not mere colored marks(words) written on a dead tree(page) and bound in a book.......

    Thankfully The ONE and Only True G-D, Father of ALL, HE yet communes with HIS Children, HE yet reveals all things.......

    Father Help! and HE does.......

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE(not just a portion) world is under the control of the evil one" indeed and Truth.......

    Truth is never ending....... francis

    ReplyDelete
  20. ElderChild@

    Please consult some of the thoughts of this article that I have composed. Your arguments against the Messiah being Divine are very one-sided. It is hardly surprising that the Son refers to His Father as "God," as the plurality of the Godhead is presented to us in a Father-Son relationship, where there is hierarchy:

    http://tnnonline.net/theonews/natureofgod/faq-divinity/index.html

    ReplyDelete
  21. ElderChild,

    Please keep in mind that the Lamb of YHWH proceeded forth from the midst of the throne. Not from a smaller chair off to the side.

    In Him (Messiah) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

    Different roles and relationships do not diminish, and more to the point, do not negate the Divine nature of Messiah Yeshua.

    Yes He walked as a man. How else could YHWH redeem man?

    Perhaps you should read through the book of Revelation again and see who receives the worship by those who are part of the first resurrection.

    It is why, when Tomas touched the scars in the glorified body of Messiah he said, "my Adonai and my YHWH".

    I think you have fallen into the familiar trap of separating Messiah from YHWH in an effort to appeal to some of the groups who cannot bring themselves to accept who He really is.

    Remember what Steven saw just before he was stoned to death. He saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of YHWH. Scripture is clear that it is impossible for a man to be in the presence of YHWH and live.

    While I am sure that there are few if any men who really understand, even can understand, what the relationship between the Father and is really like, I am also sure that those who know Him understand that He is YHWH.

    Who else could He be and still bring eternal life to mankind?

    Your thoughts are not new. I and others have explored them at one time or another. Keep looking for answers and you will find them.

    Efrayim

    ReplyDelete
  22. Well at least you have the posting topic right, for The Messiah IS "The Son of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......period.......

    And Our Father said "Let there be Light and there was Light".......

    The Messiah, "The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......

    Sadly, so many braindirtyed and held captive by the religious systems of this world, especially pagan catholicism and her #1 harlot daughter aptly named "the church OF england", for most certainly she is not of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    ReplyDelete
  23. @ElderChild

    In making your remarks about both Catholicism and the Anglican Church, you have demonstrated that your primary reason for rejecting Yeshua as Divine is to "get back" at "paganism." Your intent is not to examine the Scriptures in detail (and mind you: not your selective quotes from the Scriptures). In so doing, you basically have shot your credibility, as you cannot be an objective voice sticking to the text.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "I and the Father are one."

    The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.

    Yeshua answered them, "You guys misunderstood me! I meant that I and the Father are one in purpose!"

    Nope.

    "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"

    Yeshua rather affirms his relationship with the Father, that is evidenced in the miracles he has preformed in the sight of all.

    As the blind man from the previous chapter said (9:33), "If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

    ReplyDelete
  25. jk,

    quite obvious that religion has had it's way with you.......

    simply sad for you ;-(

    For there is Only ONE True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, The Messiah inclusive.......

    The Messiah bore witness unto His G-D and Father WHO WAS and IS "The Only True G-D".......

    And Truth IS, as Paul testified, "G-D was in The Messiah", Paul did not testify that 'g-d was the messiah'.......

    And Paul testified of "ONE G-D, Father of ALL".......

    The Messiah testified of, "The Only True G-D" and The Messiah testified that He had a "G-D and Father", HE WHO IS The ONE and Only True G-D, Father of ALL.......

    Paul testified, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in G-D, WHO CREATED ALL things by The Messiah".......(Eph3:9)

    And The Father(Creator) spoke "Let there be Light" and "there was Light".......

    LIGHT begot Light.......

    The Messiah, "The Light which enlightens every man", was "The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......(Rev 3:14)

    There is Only ONE True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE IS The G-D and Father(Creator) of The Messiah and His brethren.......

    John 17:3 "And this is Eternal Life, that they might know YOU The Only True G-D, and The Messiah, Whom YOU have sent".......

    Mark 12:32-33 "And the scribe said unto The Messiah, Well, Master, You have said The Truth: for there is ONE G-D; and there is NONE OTHER but HE. And to love HIM with all your heart, and with all your understanding, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and to love his neighbor as yourself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices".......

    Rom 3:30 "Seeing it is ONE G-D, WHO shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith".......

    1 Cor 8:6 "But to us there is but ONE G-D, The Father, of WHOM are all things, and we in HIM; and one Master, The Messiah, by Whom are all things, and we by Him".......

    Rev 3:14 The Messiah was "The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......

    Eph 4:6 "ONE G-D, Father of ALL, WHO is above all, and through all, and in you all".......

    John 4:24 "G-D is A SPIRIT: and they that worship HIM must worship HIM in Spirit and in Truth".......

    Luke 24:39 The Messiah testified after He was "raised from among the dead", "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, handle Me and see, for A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES, AS you see I HAVE".......

    The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL can not die.......period.......

    The Messiah died and "The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL raised Him from among the dead"....... And The Messiah's incorruptible body ascended into the clouds.......

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  26. James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of G-D, for G-D CAN NOT BE TEMPTED with evil, neither tempts HE any man".......

    Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest(The Messiah) Who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, for He WAS in all points TEMPTED like we are, yet without sin".......

    The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE CAN NOT BE TEMPTED with sin AS THE MESSIAH WAS.......period.......

    1 Tim 2:5 "There is ONE G-D, and one mediator between G-D and men, the man-The Messiah".......

    James 2:19 "You believe that there is ONE G-D, you do well, yet the devils also believe, and tremble".......

    John 20:17 "The Messiah said unto her, Touch Me not; for I have not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My G-D, and your G-D."

    Mark 3:33-35 "The Messiah answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brethren"? And He looked round about on them which sat about Him, and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whoever shall do The Will of G-D, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother"".......

    Rom 8:29 "Whom G-D did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, that The Messiah might be the firstborn among many brethren".......

    Hope is you are one of the brethren of The Messiah.......

    The brethren of The Messiah know there is Only ONE True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    And Truth is as The Messiah tesified, " My(Our) Father is greater than I".......(John14:28)

    And Truth is as Paul testifed, "The HEAD of The Messiah is The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and The Head of the man is The Messiah, and the head of the woman is the man".......(1Cor11:3)

    Those who would pervert The Order of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL will have to answer to HIM.......

    For The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, "HE Created all things by The Messiah" and The Messiah was "The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    Truth is "The Messiah is The Son of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......

    The Messiah testified that He had a "G-D and Father" and that His "G-D and Father" was also the "G-D and Father" of His Brethren.......

    And The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE has no god, for HE IS G-D, and HE has no father, for HE IS Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE has no brethren, for HE IS Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "the love of The Truth" for they will "experience The Messiah and The Power(Our Father) that raised Him from among the dead".......

    The Faith of those who have received "a love of The Truth" is grounded in Miracles, not mere colored marks(words) written on a dead tree(page) and bound in a book.......

    Thankfully The ONE and Only True G-D, Father of ALL, HE yet communes with HIS Children, HE yet reveals all things.......

    Father Help! and HE does.......

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE(not just a portion) world is under the control of the evil one" indeed and Truth....... francis

    ReplyDelete
  27. Elderchild I am confused by what you say for you simply make quote after quote. I could do the same but what would be the point. I would be interested to know what you are actually trying to say as I can't make any sense of all your quotes. thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Ditto to what Peter said. I'm particularly confused by the extensive usage of caps. All caps on the internet is equivalent to shouting.

    Regarding your Scriptures claiming that God cannot be tempted, and therefore Messiah is not divine, consider that Israel tempted God in the wilderness.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Also consider that there exists a commandment not to tempt God. If God cannot be tempted, why is there a commandment in the Torah against tempting God?

    Doesn't make sense.

    God cannot be successfully tempted, how about that? :-)

    ReplyDelete
  30. I was going to make a very long post but I’ll try to keep it a bit shorter(sorry failed). I am responding to Aharon who makes a very central point that goes to the heart of everything. So no disrespect to Aharon but very real engagement.

    I think the fundamental point is that Christianity depends, more than most realize, on the handed down experiences of the earliest Jewish disciples of Jesus(the Gospels came later although I do not blindly accept the normative dating of majority modern scholarship – I go with the minority of respected scholars who opt for earlier dates) . This was not only their experiences with the pre-resurrection Jesus, but, more importantly, their “eschatological” experience with the Resurrected Jesus. A “end times’ Resurrection of glorified Jesus. He was not just raised from the dead like someone who is miraculously brought back to life (a la Lazarus), but this was the kind of Resurrection (that is why I am capitalizing “Resurrection) that will be experienced by others at the end times. One may say “so what”…if Aharon is Resurrected it does not follow that Aharon is Divine. Agree. If we first accept Jesus’s Resurrection as the disciples experienced, however, it does follow that he was a true prophet, not a false prophet. In other words, it validates his teaching. And then we need to know what Jesus taught. Again, we must rely on the earliest disciples – on their understanding of what he taught during his ministry as clarified by their “unhuman” experience of what he was teaching them post-Resurrection. Note what he taught them post-Resurrection would be as much their “experience” of him as what he said to them in language (not to mention his Spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit). Can we really imagine what their “interaction” was like with the Resurrected Jesus?

    Part 2 is second post

    Todd

    ReplyDelete
  31. Part 2 continued....

    So what did the earliest Jewish disciples about Jesus and God the Father? I think it is important to refer you to an important work of recent scholarship entitled (terrible title) Jesus the Lord by Larry Hurtado. He would have preferred a title like “Christ-Devotion in earliest Christianity” but his editors said no. Think of it as “Messiah –Devotion in earliest Christianity”. It’s a huge book. But I think he makes the case that there was a very early “explosion”, not “development” of treating Jesus as divine. That this was a radical development within the early Jewish circles. Note he is trying to discern not just “theological teaching” in the early circles, but also the “practices and religious life”, i.e. prayers, worship forms, use of “titles” (such as Kyrios) etc. Bottom line to me is that these devout Jews believed both in the divinity of Jesus and the Torah teaching that seems to contradict it. Working this out in a complex theological explanation came later – but they had no time for that – they had to live out their mission in obedience to this radical new understanding – one that seemed to be a break.

    The books of the NT are the written form of the oral tradition and teaching handed down from the earliest jewish disciples. I believe these written forms are relatively early (all scholars believe that certain Pauline letters are within 20 years of the death of Jesus) and can cite the minority (but growing) group of respectable scholars who believe this. Moreover, almost all scholars(even those that posit a 70-110 a.d. date for the Gospels) have abandoned the idea that the NT was significantly shaped in its essential theology by “later” pagan ideas being incorporated by gentile converts. I can give you some interesting books to read in this regard too. In summary, I think if NT is also reliable, then Judahs’ quotes from the Gospels are something followers of Jesus have to come to grips with. I would go further and say that the “interpretation” of what they mean must take into account the traditions/understanding passed down (as a precious gift) from the earliest Jewish disciples and those they taught. A treasure guarded like a precious gift through the ages. But that gets into a whole ‘nother topic. God Bless.


    Todd

    ReplyDelete
  32. Hurtado's book is excellent, as is his article in Dictionary of Paul and His Letters on "Lord" (pp 560-569).

    Here is a recent clip of Hurtado, explaining some of the very things brought up in the blog discussion:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdhMuKOkkoU

    ReplyDelete
  33. I think the answer does not lie in repetitively recited NT verses which are still almost exclusively understood outside of the authority and foundation of the Tanakh (Torah, Prophets, and Writings), and outside the unique, cryptic, and idiomatic culture and language of the Jewish people. In fact, what we're seeing is a mass of people trying to understand Jewish texts without understanding Judaism. And I mean this in the Messianic world very much so.

    Therefore, not only do I think the answers are not found in repetitive usage of extremely poorly understood NT verses, but also not in various pastors, leaders, authors, etc, who do not practice nor understand the unique and very different culture of the Jewish people.

    There lies the problem.

    I see the focus here is exclusively on "Jesus said he's God!" type verses, without even much second thought for the Tanakh which tells us:
    1. Salvation is ONLY from HaShem,
    2. Trusting in HaShem is complete, whole, and unable to be inadequate,
    3. Doing the commands of Torah are life, eternal and physical, and are blessing and completely good.
    4. "HaShem loves those who fear him (i.e. those who obey Him), their cry He hears and He saves them."

    Anyone who comes along and says that belief in the One Creator of the universe who is not two, three, nor any more, only One (Dt. 6:4); and adherence, for the nation of Israel, to His commands--anyone who says these are inadequate are clearly contradicting the Tanakh. In fact, the aim of Mashiahh Ssidhqenu was not for us to abandon these things in favor of a "new faith" in him (which is what many Christians and Messianics are doing today), but rather to return to that which we had and have strayed from--the pure and simple Written Torah with original Oral Instruction from the Torah-ordained supreme Sanhedrin which has yet to be re-formed completely.

    For these reasons, the majority of the Messianic movement is far from hitting the mark--but I do believe as long as people keep moving on and dropping more and more Christian baggage; they will eventually be returned to complete truth, be`ezrath HaShem. Not to mention modern Judaism being off the path, as well, needing to return to the original halakhoth established by the former Sanhedrins all the way back to the original one which Moshe Rabenu headed (as well as other reforms modern Judaism needs to make as a whole)--but that is another discussion for another time, and on a different plane entirely. With the Messianic stuff, we're still talking about whether or not to keep Torah and/or how much of it to keep, or whether or not people want to be Karaites, or modern-day Orthodox Jews, or something else entirely. Lots of sheep, not much for shepherds, therefore not much direction.

    -Aaron

    ReplyDelete
  34. "Whosoever will" includes all mankind from the "four corners" of Creation."

    Now if they can not keep the natural 7th day sabbath at the same time, does it not reveal that, since the destruction of the earthly, natural kingdom centered in yerusalem, "THY Kingdom" HAD "Come" and is no longer earthly and natural but Heavenly and Spiritual.......

    Yet those religious ones who but carry on the legacy of the pharisee(jews, catholics, christians and muslims) continue to wage war against The Truth ;-(

    ReplyDelete
  35. I mean to provide verses to back up my third paragraph above, I'll re-write it with the verses:

    I see the focus here is exclusively on "Jesus said he's God!" type verses, without even much second thought for the Tanakh which tells us:
    1. Salvation is ONLY from HaShem, and forgiveness of sins is only His power (Ps. 62:6-9; Ps. 32:5-6; Ps.51:4(2)),
    2. Trusting in HaShem is complete, whole, and unable to be inadequate (Ps. 112:1-2; Ps. 9:10(11); Ps. 13:5(6); Ps. 22:4-5(5-6); Ps. 40:4(5); Ps. 119:42),
    3. Doing the commands of Torah are life, eternal and physical, and are blessing and completely good. (Ps. 1; Prov. 3:18; Dt. 30:15; Dt. 30:20; Dt. 32:47)
    4. "The will of those who fear Him (i.e. those who obey Him) He will do, their cry He will hear and He will save them." (Ps. 145:19)


    No secret, Torah is eternal life, trusting in HaShem is not incomplete.

    ReplyDelete
  36. ElderChild,

    Jews set aside the correct day for Shaboth. Christians do not restrain from melakha on Sunday, neither do Muslims restrain from melakha on Friday. Therefore Jews do not only set aside the correct day, but they abstain from the correct activities on that day--melakha (incorrectly translated as simple "work").

    Paul carried on the legacy of the Pharisees, since he was one until the end of his life.

    Acts 23:6
    Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees (like 'Karaites' and some Messianics of today--non believers in the Jewish Oral Tradition) and the others Pharisees (believers in the Jewish Oral Tradition), called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

    The Resurrection of the Dead, which Paul was, in essence, on trial for believing, is a Pharisaic principle explained only in the Jewish Oral Tradition, with its details vague if even that in the Tanakh--those who did not believe in the Jewish Oral Tradition, such as the Sadducees, did not believe in the resurrection of the dead.
    It is contradictory to faith in Rabi Yehoshua` ben Yosef to not believe in the Jewish Oral Tradition, for countless reasons, this one is a good example.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Aharon - With all due respect, I would recommend you step back and look at where you've ended up. If I understand, you not only think Christians/MJ's are wrong but normative orthodox judaism (in whatever branch or expression) is wrong. That the only ones who've "got it right" are you and your relatively small group (don't know how many that is - a dozen, 100? more?). In all seriousness doesn't that make you take a step back and wonder - am I really being appropriately humble?

    Could you/group have more wisdom, understanding, and knowledge with respect to orthodox judaism than the gedolim? On the other side of the fence, could you/group have more understanding with respect to Yeshua's relation to God than Peter and Paul?

    I ask this in all charity.

    Todd

    ReplyDelete
  38. Simply sad for all held captive by the systems of religion that are of this world ;-(

    "for they have eyes but see not, they have ears but hear not", the blind and deaf leading the blind and deaf indeed ;-(

    "Pure And Undefiled Religion"

    "Pure religion and undefiled before G-D The Father is this, to visit the fatherless (those children who know not their Father, HE WHO is The Only True G-D, Father{Creator} of ALL) and widows(those who have not "experienced The Messiah and The Power{Our Father} that raised Him from among the dead") in their affliction and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the world......." (James 1:27)

    Simply, all other religion is impure and defiled.......

    And notice that "pure and undefiled" religion is "oneself(individual)", a Brother or Sister doing The Will of Our Father, led of The Holy, Set Apart, Spirit.......

    Simply, corporate "religion" is pagan and of this wicked world.......

    And "Brothers and Sisters" is not "religion", for what are Brothers and Sisters if not Family?

    Would not The Family of The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, "The Body of The Messiah", be much closer than a natural, fleshly family?

    And so it is that most of those who have chosen to follow The Messiah on The Narrow Way have had to "forsake their natural father, mother, brothers, sisters" and all others who will not follow The Messiah because they "love this wicked world and their own life in and of it".......

    The Brethren of The Messiah have "forsaken all for The Kingdom of Heaven's sake".......

    Father Help! and HE does.......

    What is declared to be "religion" today is truly the 'd'evil's playground.......

    Simply, Faith will not create a system of religion.......

    Hope is there would be those who take heed unto The Call of The Only True G-D to "Come Out of her, MY people"!

    For they will "Come Out" of this wicked world(babylon) and it's systems of religion, and enter into "the glorious Liberty of The Children of The Only True G-D".

    And so it is that they will no longer be of those who are destroying the earth(land, air, water, vegetation, creatures)" and perverting that which is Spirit(Light, Truth, Life, Love, Peace, Hope, Faith, Mercy, Grace, Miracles, etc.).......

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE(not just a portion) world is under the control of the evil one" (1John5:19) indeed and Truth.......
    francis

    ReplyDelete
  39. Todd,

    Its very broad what I think certain people are wrong about. Basically, I have the most problem with Christianity and some/most of Messianism because there are fundamental flaws in theology which are fundamental no-nos in Torah. And I mean that even relating to the 7 Noahide Laws which are incumbent upon all mankind, not that I am immediately judging them by the standard of Torah which is only for Israel.

    As for modern-day Orthodox Judaism, I'm certainly not saying they are all damned or doing the wrong thing completely. The issue there is that there are things that need fixing in the religion of Orthodox Judaism that have come to be naturally by way of being in galuth, without an authoritative Sanhedrin. And without that authoritative Sanhedrin, all the changes in halakhic direction, the developed differences between Ashkenazim, Sepharadim, etc, and the naming of minhag as "halakha" are incorrect! Simple. Judaism needs refinement, that is what the upcoming geulah will bring. =)

    In short, what we need is one halakha, and halakha is only what an authoritative Sanhedrin rules is halakha--and we haven't had one for 1,600 years or so. One of the better things one can do is follow the halakha of Mishne Torah since it is by and large a compilation and condensation of authoritative halakha made by real Sanhedrins over all Israel, which are found in various Rabbinic writings all condensed into Mishne Torah, basically.

    So, no, I don't think I'm completely correct myself. But I'm always looking at what I need to improve on and not just accepting the status quo of what people do nowadays. And, no, I don't think normative modern Judaism is way way off.

    I'm not sure what you mean with Shim`on-Kefa and Shaul.

    ReplyDelete
  40. ElderChild,

    You keep saying stupid things like,

    "Simply, Faith will not create a system of religion......."

    And especially,

    "Simply, corporate "religion" is pagan and of this wicked world......."

    That's a pile of BS since Torah given on Sinai was a completel SYSTEM based on faith in One Creator, the God of Israel. Organized or systematic faith is religion. We have a system about everything in Torah. Its religion, and its the only good one.

    The only reason "religion" is a bad thing to people like you is that you want to make your own while not calling it a "religion". You say "I believe this and this and this, and these things are essential, these things are necessary, etc, etc, etc" and you act thereupon. THAT'S RELIGION. Everyone has one, whether they like it or not. So quit with this "anti-religion" shpiel, its a load of trash.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Aharon - Thanks for the polite response to my comment.

    I wish you well in struggle to find what is really true. I admire that struggle.

    All I can say is that I have found "the fullness of truth" in the Catholic Church. I know that seems like one of the furthest places from truth to you. But I would love to have you (and everyone who posts on this blog) join us. I encourage all to take a look at the Catholic Church with an open mind. When I did that it was like a light bulb going off (well...followed by a 7 year process of discernment and at the end just delay).

    Todd

    ReplyDelete
  42. Stupid you say?

    Simply sad for you ;-(

    What else can one be for those who yet cling to that whidh has "waxed old and vanished away"?

    As for Faith?

    Faith most certainly will not create a system of religion for True Faith is grounded in what a believer has "seen(experienced) and heard(received)" and not mere colored marks written on a dead tree and bound up in a book.......

    Yes, i can see why you would believe in corporate religion, for their are multitudes liken unto you who have never experienced Family ;-(

    For "Our Father" can never be truly experienced by anyone except The Brethren of The Messiah, and it is quite clear that you have rejected Him for your "love of this world and your own life in and of it" ;-(

    Yet there is hope!

    For Miracles do happen.......

    Hope is there would be those who would experience The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth".......

    ReplyDelete

Appending "You might like" to each post.