It’s been a few weeks since we’ve done work on our commandments hierarchy project. This week, we we’ll be mapping commandments related to brotherhood. And at the end of this post, a little bonus for all you fine blog readers: some interesting stats tallied from the biblical commandments we’ve mapped thus far.
But first, a recap: What is the Greatest Commandments Project?
Imagine all the commandments in the law arranged in a visual tree, where each commandment hangs on another. For example, “love the sojourner” is a branch hanging on the “love your neighbor as yourself” commandment.
This is what we’ve done, and you can see our work here.
The project is inspired by Messiah’s words:
“Hear, Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one; love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Torah and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
That’s what the Greatest Commandments Hierarchy project is all about. Read past commandments mappings, or have a peek at the latest snapshot of our work! If you’re technically inclined, you can even contribute to the project through the open source Greatest Commandments software project.
With that covered, let’s begin!
No destroying objects associated with God’s name
These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess—as long as you live in the land. Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way.
-Deuteronomy 12:4
Commandment #8 (the bolded part above) is an interesting one, where the Christian translations and interpretations is different than Judaism’s.
Many Christian interpretations: “Do not worship as they [the pagans] worship.”
Many Jewish interpretations: “Do not do so [wipe out the name, the places of worship] unto the Lord.”
Looking at different translations, and looking at the surrounding texts, I find the Jewish interpretation correct. With the literal text of, “You shall not do so unto the LORD your God”, the preceding statement of “wipe out the name of false gods”, and the following statement of “seek the place where God puts his name among you”, I’m thinking this is more about honoring God’s name.
Accepting the traditional Jewish interpretation, I deem this commandment deriving from the “Do not profane God’s name” commandment:
No Hating Others
Do not hate your brother in your heart.
-Leviticus 19:17 (part 1)
Like the issue with “love the convert”, Judaism traditionally interprets this commandment as a Jew-specific commandment. In fact, Maimonides summarizes this commandment as “Do not hate other Jews”.
This argument can be made: “brother” and “neighbor” would most likely be other Israelites, as the Torah was given to Israel.
On the other hand, it may also be argued that neighbor could mean even the sojourner. Indeed, we read last week the commandment “be kind to the sojourner among you”. Additionally, the text does not explicitly specify this commandment as applying only to Israelites.
And finally, Messiah himself mentions this commandment while amplifying it:
I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' [Aramaic term of contempt] is answerable to the Sanhedrin.
-Matthew 5:22
I would argue that Messiah’s words here (and by extension, the commandment not to hate your brother), are applicable to all God’s people, including those gentiles brought near through Messiah.
So I break with the traditional Jewish interpretation here and summarize this commandment as the general “Don’t hate others”, rather than the limited “Don’t hate other Jews”.
I deem this commandment as deriving from the golden “Love your neighbor as yourself” commandment:
Reprove the sinner
Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
-Leviticus 19:17 (part 2)
The next sentence after “do not hate your brother” commandment in Leviticus 19:17, is the commandment to rebuke your [guilty] neighbor, rather than share in his guilt.
Maimonides’ interpretation of “reprove the sinner” seems correct to me, as the text implies that the neighbor to be rebuked is guilty, and that you must reprove, rather than hate him, so that you don’t share in his guilt.
Given the locality of these commandments in the text, and their inter-related nature, I deem this commandment as deriving from “no hating others” commandment:
No embarrassing others
But wait, we’re not done with Leviticus 19:17. Maimonides extracts yet another commandment from this same verse: “no embarrassing others”.
Here is the whole verse again, this time in literal translation:
You shall not hate your brother in your heart; you shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.
-Leviticus 19:17
Where does “no embarrassing others” come from?
An educated guess might be “do not bear sin because of him”. I would argue against Maimonides here, honestly; I just don’t see this interpretation as legitimate, not bearing sin here seems to be part of the “don’t hate your brother” commandment, not a new commandment about embarrassing others. If you fine blog readers have any thoughts, I’d like to hear them.
Like the previous commandment, I deem this related to not hating your brother:
Closing thoughts: Maimonides’ double standard?
Today we mapped 3 commandments from Leviticus 19:17:
Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
-Leviticus 19:17
Now note how Maimonides splits this verse into 3 commandments:
- Do not hate other Jews.
- Rebuke the sinner.
- Don’t embarrass others.
Maimonides sees 3 parties here: Jews, sinners, and others. Yet the text mentions neither Jews nor sinners nor others.
Why does Maimonides feel “do not hate your brother” applies only to Jews, but “embarrassing others” and “rebuking others” are not limited in this way? A consistent interpretation would seem to be “Do not hate other Jews, rebuke sinning Jews, and don’t embarrass other Jews.” Instead, Maimonides interprets each of these as pertaining to different groups. Is it a double-standard, or just a matter of interpretation? You fine blog readers have any thoughts?
The Big Picture
Behold! In all its glory, the current snapshot of the commandments hierarchy project:
(Click for full size)
Beautiful!
Note that Kineti reader and project contributor Nathan Tuggy has modified the source code to spit out “can’t be carried out today” commandments as red. Thanks, Nathan! Click the picture to see our 2 mapped commandments that cannot be carried out today: both of them are related to the Levitical priesthood and the tabernacle offerings.
Nerd Notes
I’ve modified the Commandments Hierarchy generator program to output some interesting stats about the commandments mapped thus far:
Some statistics to tingle your nerdly id
- 27 commandments have been mapped thus far.
- 11% of them are from Exodus.
- 41% of them are from Leviticus.
- 4% of them are from Numbers.
- 44% of them are from Deuteronomy.
- 93% of them can be carried out in modern times.
- 63% are positive commandments.
- 37% are negative commandments.
- 63% are observed by Christians.
- 89% are observed by Messianics.
- 89% are observed by Jews.
- The average commandment length is 123 characters.
- The average summary length is 27 characters.
Interesting stats indeed! Looking forward to seeing how these stats evolve as we progress into more commandments.
There it is, folks! I hope you’ve enjoyed this installment of the Greatest Commandments Project. Enjoy your shabbat!
Good point about Maimonides. He was also a terrible racist:
ReplyDeletehttp://unorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/2005/11/rambams-views-on-gentiles-blacks-and.html
On the topic, this is fun:
http://www.jewcy.com/post/ham_other_black_meat
Yeze and Judah, please watch:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSev6gsJ2UQ&feature=player_profilepage
I like your conclusions on these three commandments.
ReplyDeleteNice C# concept too.
Yeze...
ReplyDeleteCare to back up your statement about Maimonides being a "terrible racist" with some hard facts (direct link to complete text of his book(s) where this can be verified, please), or will you publicly apologize for being a bit rash with the vicious slander of the great Jewish sage?
Gene,
ReplyDeleteThe Youtube link I posted documents direct quotes in English translated from the most original Hebrew manuscripts of Rambam/Maimonides Mishne Torah in order to clearly disprove Yeze's false claim. He shouldn't even be given a chance to do what anti-Semites (including the Nazis) have done, which is take Jewish texts out of context and use it for hatred or slander of Jews.
"He shouldn't even be given a chance to do what anti-Semites (including the Nazis) have done..."
ReplyDeleteThe quote that Yeze so cheerfully linked to (without a second thought) DOES NOT appear in any work by Maimonides - but IS found and attributed to him ONLY on a number of antisemitic (Islamic, Christian-identity, white-power, and other fans of Protocols of the Elders of Zion) websites throughout the internet.
Yeze, it does not look good, mate. How can one believe the truthfulness and unbiasedness of other information you distribute through your blog when you are ready to use such unverified and slanderous information to further some agenda?
Judah:
ReplyDeleteGood work on this project. It is a pleasure meditating on the interconnectedness of the commandments.
I'm not sure you've given evidence that Maimonides takes 19:17 b and c to be about non-Jews while restricting 19:17a to Jews. He may just as well be viewing all three parts as relations between Jews. This is his context and he saw no need to address ethics for non-Jews from such Torah commands. And "brother" does carry the general weight of a fellow Israelite.
Derek Leman
Thanks for the comments, guys.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Maimonides' view, I know some of the Medieval sages of Judaism had a generally negative view of gentiles, and a negative view of Jesus for that matter. They were likely influenced by the anti-semitism coming from gentiles and the church under the name Jesus. Thus, I'm willing to extend a little grace there.
As Derek said, it is possible that Maimonides intended for all these commandments to apply to Jews only. Of course, this raises the question why he chose to use Jewish-specific terminology in one commandment, but chose general terminology in the others.
Derek, even though "brother" does carry family-specifics (thus, limiting this commandment to Jews alone), "neighbor" could mean the foreigner. I find this topic relevant to the one law debate: certainly, it could be argued "do not hate your brother" is applicable to Jews alone, just as some argue commandments like the feasts, kosher, circumcision, and others are for Jews alone. Yet almost everyone in the Messianic world, including folks on the UMJC side of things, would interpret this commandment to apply to all God's people. I wonder why!
p.s. Any thoughts on the "no embarrassing others" commandment? I find this a stretch, honestly. I personally wouldn't include it as one of the 613 commandments.
ReplyDelete@Rick,
ReplyDeleteThanks, glad you like the C# project. Are you a developer? I welcome open source contributions to the project, in fact, Kineti reader Nathan Tuggy has already contributed to the source code.
Maimonides' views are pretty well-known on this. Why do you think he's a great sage?
ReplyDeleteHe said it was logically impossible for Jews to believe in Yeshua, and you base your life around that not being the case.
He has his good points but also his bad points. Gene - it doesn't look good you defending him on this issue, or denying what he actually did write.
Judah - Maimonides saw Gentiles negatively, but saw Islam & Christanity as part of God's plan for the spread of monotheism. Although he didn't see Christianity as monotheistic when it came to Jews.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that there was anti-Jewish and anti-Gentile racism - I think society was religiously segregated at the time, which explains a lot of mediaeval theology, but nowadays we can afford not to be so polemic. Like I said, good post.
The fictional character "Jesus" made up by the Christians, who is the polar opposite of the historical Pharisee, Ribi Yehoshu`a, is no one to give respect to. There should be, however, a distinction always made between the real Ssadiq and the fake scarejew (I mean scarecrow).
ReplyDeleteGene, have a look here.
ReplyDeleteZion Zohar, a lecturer at Princeton university on Judaism (definitely not an anti-Semite), writes ('Sephardi and Mizrahi Jewry: from the Golden Age of Spain to Modern Times' p.241):
Mediaeval rationalist such as Rambam/Maimonides or Yehuda haLevi saw blacks as incompletely formed humans, lacking the faculties of speech, intelligence, or religious culture, which defined civilised people.
I think you owe me an apology for accusing me of 'vicious slander'!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, this chapter was written by Jonathan Schorsch - professor of Jewish Studies at Columbia Uni. The volume was edited by Zion Zohar.
ReplyDeleteI don't think either men would just make stuff up about Maimonides' racism.
Yeze...
ReplyDeleteI will repeat my request as I await your public recanting of your words:
"...back up your statement about Maimonides being a "terrible racist" with some hard facts (direct link to complete text of his book(s) where this can be verified, please."
And no, do not post quotes of a quotes of some questionable and clearly biased authors, including nonsense from historical revisionists like Jonathan Schorsch (the author of op-ed pieces such as "Why many Jews might feel the Orthodox do hate them" http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1176152827875&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull).
I know that you as a "secular Jew" (your own description of yourself) have no special love for the observant Jews. You rightly call on abuses by some sects of the ultra-Orthodox against Jewish Evangelicals and Messianic Jews in Israel. However, the end (justice) does not justify the means (slanderous information from questionable sources with the chip on their shoulders against observant Jews).
OK, please give me the book with the exact words by Maimonides. If you can't, the least your can do is acknowledge that you have disrespected the great Jewish sage. Thank you.
Er, plenty of Jews do feel that the Orthodox hate them. Orthodox Jews don't have a monopoly on Jewish identity.
ReplyDeleteI'm very comfortable with Orthodox Jews actually, the majority of whom do not approach the extremism of Yad L'Achim.
But Rambam was a racist. I can't change that. Seriously, following the link on UOJ, or find the book I showed you which gives a direct quote.
I'm not sitting here and typing it out for you, do that yourself if you don't believe me.
If you don't believe UOJ or Shorsch then I doubt you'll believe me either, even if I spend half an hour typing up Maimonides quotes.
Shorsch is the leading world expert on Jewish-black relations. I don't see why you're so sceptical about him. It's basically common knowledge that Maimonides thought black people weren't capable enough of worshipping God. To me that's racist.
That's also why I provided a link to the Jewcy article, to show that Orthodox Judaism is not anti-black itself. The Jewcy post goes through the curse of Ham to prove that it's not related to skin colour. Have a read of it.
"If you don't believe UOJ or Shorsch then I doubt you'll believe me either, even if I spend half an hour typing up Maimonides quotes."
ReplyDeleteWhy would I believe your two sources: a self-hating godless Jew (UOJ), or the revisionist Orthodox-Jew hater Schorsch?
Don't have to retype a thing for me, Yeze - just send me a link to full text Maimonides own book where I can verify his "racist" statements. (Hint: Maimonides books are all over the web). But you won't - this is because you'd rather slander first, and ask questions later. You have not read Maimonides's books, but it didn't stop you from calling him a "terrible racist." As such, you bore false witness based on a hearsay.
Actually, having a look around it (which I probably should have done in the first place) that Blacks & Jews a horrible website - apologies.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't think the quote is made up. It's cited by Shorsch, who is a university historian on the subject.
I know about Maimonides' racism from an article in a mainstream Jewish paper. I don't think Orthodox Jews in general are racist, but racism is a problem.
Would you agree, Gene?
"Every individual could reach and intellectual cognition of the
ReplyDeletedivinity, at least on an elementary level, and willingly take upon themselves the Torah and commandments, whether Jew or gentile by birth, male or female, could belong to the congregation of
believers.Not so for the blacks: Maimonides had difficulty including
them in the human group altogether."
p. 148
The Image of the Black in Jewish Culture: A History of the Other, by
Abraham Melamed. London: Routledge Curzon, 2003. 295 pp.
http://books.google.com/books?id=W8bxvyiMWjUC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=m#v=onepage&q=m&f=false
Find Maimonides on Turks and blacks anywhere here:
ReplyDeletehttp://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&q=blacks%20maimonides%20turks&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp
Yeze...
ReplyDelete"But I don't think the quote is made up. It's cited by Shorsch, who is a university historian on the subject."
Please give up, my friend. That quote attributed to Maimonides IS made up - I personally perused his books, including the SPECIFIC chapter and verse the antisemites attribute it to, but those anti-black/anti-turk verses are nowhere to be found (not even close). I could only find them repeated ad nauseum on islamist and black/white-supremacist sites. Remember, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion contain many supposed quotes too attributed to Jewish sages, and they too get repeated and passed on.
"I know about Maimonides' racism from an article in a mainstream Jewish paper."
But you can't give me his own book to read where this can be verified. Think about this.
"I don't think Orthodox Jews in general are racist, but racism is a problem. Would you agree, Gene?"
It's a problem with EVERY single culture and group. But to single out the Orthodox in this area is prejudicial in itself. Have you ever entertained ANY negative thoughts towards Africans or people of other cultures and races, Yeze? Ever laughed at any jokes about people of other races or ethnic groups? Never? You must be perfect then. But if you ever have, you may be a racist too. But I will not call you "terrible".
Maimonides
ReplyDeleteAbout the Turks and Blacks
I will begin the subject of this chapter with a simile. A king is in his palace, and all his subjects are partly in the country, and partly abroad. Of the former, some have their backs turned towards the king's palace, and their faces in another direction; and some are desirous and zealous to go to the palace, seeking" to inquire in his temple," and to minister before him, but have not yet seen even the face of the wall of the house. Of those that desire to go to the palace, some reach it, and go round about in search of the entrance gate; others have passed through the gate, and walk about in the ante-chamber; and others have succeeded in entering into the inner part of the palace, and being in the same room with the king in the royal palace. But even the latter do not immediately on entering the palace see the king, or speak to him; for, after having entered the inner part of the palace, another effort is required before they can stand before the king - at a distance, or close by - hear his words, or speak to him. I will now explain the simile which I have made. The people who are abroad are all those that have no religion, neither one based on speculation nor one received by tradition. Such are the extreme Turks that wander about in the north, the Kushites [negroes] who live in the south, and those in our country who are like these. I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey.
Moses Maimonides, The Guide for the Perplexed, book III, chapter 51. Translated from the original Arabic text by M. Friedlander, PhD. 2nd ed. 1904.
Still don't believe me?
ReplyDeleteRead Guide for the Perplexed online here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp003.htm
Read Book III chapter 51 here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp187.htm
Here's their translation:
"The people who are abroad are all those that have no religion, neither one based on speculation nor one received by tradition. Such are the extreme Turks that wander about in the north, the Kushites who live in the south, and those in our country who are like these. I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey."
I have black friends who I worship alongside. I object to the idea that my friends are physically & spiritually incapable of worshipping with us as they haven't yet learned how to speak, and that they are "below" monkeys.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how you've possibly got to the idea that, in a debate about Judaism, when I've offered an alternative Orthodox Jewish viewpoint, that I'm being antisemitic by criticising Maimonides' anti-black racism?
It's like claiming that someone is being anti-German whenever they criticise Martin Luther's anti-Semitism!
I'm not singling out Orthodox Judaism, I'm singling out Maimonides! In fact, the orthodox Judaism of Maimonides' Europe considered Rambam a heretic.
Were the southern French rabbis of the 13th century anti-Semites when they organised public book burnings of Maimonides' writings? And was Nahmanides an anti-Semite when he opposed those same rabbis?
Let's put it another way: was Yeshua an anti-Semite for focusing on the Pharisees?
Think about what you're saying.
Also Gene, you still haven't answered this point: Maimonides said it was logically impossible for Jews to believe in Yeshua, and you base your life around that not being the case.
How do you reconcile this with (what I perceive as) your defensive attitude towards Rambam?
Yeze... did you even read the chapter where the excerpt is from? The analogy he's making has nothing at all to do with some supposed racism. It talks about people in the inner and outter courts of a king (in his parable). And he certainly does not single out either Turks (who are whites, many of whom blond and blue eyed) or Kushites (he refers to those who specifically live in the South), but also includes people in his own country in the analogy:
ReplyDelete"those in OUR COUNTRY who are like these."
Like these (like what)? People who are without religion/faith. He talks about people's spiritual condition (pagans).
The concept of "race" did not even exist at that time. It's a much later invention.
Maimonides reference has nothing to do with racism, at least anymore than this Biblical verse: "Can the Ethiopian [Cushite] change his skin or the leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." (Jer. 13:23.) Skin color and reference to Ethiopian is simply a simile - or is Jeremiah being a racist by creating a simile between Ethiopian's color to sin? I don't think so, but antisemites have used this very verse to support claims that Jews are racists.
Maimonides reference has nothing to do with racism, at least anymore than this Biblical verse: "Can the Ethiopian [Cushite] change his skin or the leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." (Jer. 13:23.) Skin color and reference to Ethiopian is simply a simile - or is Jeremiah being a racist by creating a simile between Ethiopian's color to sin? I don't think so, but antisemites have used this very verse to support claims that Jews are racists.
ReplyDeleteNo, of course he isn't. (Although Jeremiah was writing in the days before Michael Jackson).
"those in OUR COUNTRY who are like these."
So black people. I.e. people who are like Cushites.
Gene, you wrote:
He talks about people's spiritual condition (pagans).
But we read:
I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey.
He is clearly talking about their physical and mental capacities, so more than just their spiritual capacities. In any case, how are you born with more "spiritual capacities" than someone else?
The concept of "race" did not even exist at that time. It's a much later invention.
So that makes it alright then? And how would you explain all this?
And he certainly does not single out either Turks (who are whites, many of whom blond and blue eyed) or Kushites (he refers to those who specifically live in the South), but also includes people in his own country in the analogy:
"those in OUR COUNTRY who are like these."
Of course he does. He singles these three groups out as being lower than monkeys.
Hitler didn't just single out the Jews. He also picked on Gypsies, blacks, mulattos, etc. Picking on more than one group doesn't make it right.
"Let's put it another way: was Yeshua an anti-Semite for focusing on the Pharisees? Think about what you're saying."
ReplyDeleteNo, but you are not Yeshua. For a Christian today to obsessively focus on the Orthodox Jews and single them out for criticism may indeed smell like antisemitism. (And yes, I know that elsewhere you said that you are a non-observant ethnic Jew and a Christian).
"Also Gene, you still haven't answered this point: Maimonides said it was logically impossible for Jews to believe in Yeshua, and you base your life around that not being the case."
What does that have to do with anything? My grandparents didn't believe in Yeshua and probably rejected him as a pagan god, since they only knew of him from Christian icons and statues they saw, but I do not disown them for that or talk ill of them as you have of Maimonides.
No, but you are not Yeshua. For a Christian today to obsessively focus on the Orthodox Jews and single them out for criticism may indeed smell like antisemitism.
ReplyDeleteSo only Yeshua is allowed to make these criticisms? What about Paul and Stephen, for example? As a believer I'm on the same spiritual level as them - we're a kingdom of priests. Do you think they're anti-Semites too?
(And yes, I know that elsewhere you said that you are a non-observant ethnic Jew and a Christian).
Your point being?
"[...] but I do not disown them for that or talk ill of them as you have of Maimonides."
Nope, you'll just talk ill of me!
[..] to obsessively focus on the Orthodox Jews [...]
ReplyDeleteLet's be clear: I criticised Maimonides, not Orthodox Jews.
Does anti-Semitism trump all other forms of racism? No. All types of racism are equally bad.
ReplyDeleteAs it's obvious that none of us here are anti-Semites, let's focus on the subject at hand: was Maimonides an anti-black racist?
Jewish academics, medieval historians, and the Rambam himself all seem to be in agreement that he was.
"...was Maimonides an anti-black racist? Jewish academics, medieval historians, and the Rambam himself all seem to be in agreement that he was."
ReplyDeleteOK, Yeze, but now tell us how you really feel:)!
I'm not saying he didn't do anything positive, but I think he was racist. If you disagree fine, but let's leave it at that.
ReplyDeleteYeze here are some more facts for you.
ReplyDeleteThe Talmud lists 7 kinds of Pharisees, 5 or so who are not good. The Talmud lists disputes between Pharisees, and various other issues--very equally on par with Ribi Yehoshua`'s in-house disputes with other Pharisees.
So yes, people who are not Jewish religiously have no say in Judaism whatsoever. Go talk to other Christians stop loading up the fuel used for anti-Semitism. There's enough of that stuff preached in the churches when ignorant pastors think they know anything about Ribi Yehoshua` and his in-house arguments in the Pharisaic Jewish world. Their error has led to inquisitions and holocausts.
Aharon,
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't seem that you know much either.....
What is "ribi-yehoshua," your invention?
people who live in glass houses shoud not throw stones...
Blessings
Dan
Dan Benzvi,
ReplyDeleteWhat a hugely ignorant post of yours. "Ribi Yehoshua`" is nothing I made up. Please see this link.
Have a fantabulous day, fine sir.
The Talmud lists 7 kinds of Pharisees, 5 or so who are not good. The Talmud lists disputes between Pharisees, and various other issues--very equally on par with Ribi Yehoshua`'s in-house disputes with other Pharisees.
ReplyDeleteSo yes, people who are not Jewish religiously have no say in Judaism whatsoever.
So, are you "in house"? Will you criticise Maimonides for writing the 13 principles of faith, which gave a definition of Judaism that was impossible for believers in Jesus to follow?
If you will criticise him, then you're guilty of the same "anti-Semitism" as me (i.e. criticising the writings of Maimonides), and if you won't criticise him, then you're in the same position as me and are also "outside".
Go talk to other Christians stop loading up the fuel used for anti-Semitism. There's enough of that stuff preached in the churches when ignorant pastors think they know anything about Ribi Yehoshua` and his in-house arguments in the Pharisaic Jewish world. Their error has led to inquisitions and holocausts.
How simplistic. Do you realise that the Inquisition originally targeted Jewish converts to Catholicism, before the expulsion of the Jews? And do you realise that Jewish Christians were killed alongside all other Jews in the Holocaust?
I refuse to believe that airing my opinion amongst other Messianic Jews that Maimonides was a racist will ultimately lead to another Holocaust, just as I refuse to believe that me calling Luther an anti-Semite will lead to global massacres of Christians.
Aaron,
ReplyDeleteConsider the source, you are the ignorant for relying on suspect websites rather than study....
Dan Benzvi,
ReplyDeleteThe only thing suspect is your vague condemnations.
According to the earliest extant Christian historian, Eusebius, Yeshua` was known as Ribi Yehoshua`/Yeshua`, a Pharisee; his original followers obeyed the Torah in the Jewish manner and were "tenacious" for its observance, and they did not hold to any "New Testament" doctrines as we find today. I know this ruins your belief system and your comfort zone, but it is the truth. If the best you can do is vaguely condemn things that go against your thinking and stay in your convenient Christian (or whatever name you call it) theology, then have at it.
Also Dan,
ReplyDeleteIf you're trying to tell me about studying, I would like to ask you why you don't believe Ribi Yeshua` was a Pharisee, or that he allowed his followers to pick and choose from Oral Tradition, or be Karaites, or anything along those lines or any others that makes the real person Ribi Yehoshua` something other than an Orthodox observant Jew? By making him into something he was not, via faulty theology, you are not "following" him, it doesn't work that way.
Aharon,
ReplyDeleteIt would be nice if you can show us any hebrew or Aramaic source where "Yehoshua" is referred to as "ribi?"
otherwise you have no credibility.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteChristian historian Eusebius documents this fact. Off the top of my head I am not sure what the most accurate Syriac texts say when it says "Teacher" in some translations; this would not even matter so much because these translations are not the original Hebrew text of the original Matithyahu about which it is a fact the Netzarim only specifically held to be true and accurate.
In any case, the burden of proof is not on one to prove that Ribi Yehoshua` was an observant Jew. This is a top priority of any candidate for Mashiahh.
The burden of proof is on any slanderer who says he was not.
You still don't understand do you?
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get that His name is "Yehoshua?" From a Micky Mause website of so-called "nezarim?"
WOW, Dan...
ReplyDeleteYou see... Yehoshua` is Hebrew for Yeshua` (the ` denotes the letter `ayin), which is an Aramaic name. Certain parts of the Tanakh are written in Aramaic. In one part of the Tanakh, a man named Yehoshua` is called by this, his Hebrew name, in another place the same man is called Yeshua`.
Yeshua`=ישוע is not the same as the Hebrew word yeshu`a=ישועה (`ayin is pronounced with the final vowel as opposed to being pronounced at the end of it, because it is spelled with a hei at the end). The Hebrew word yeshu`a is spelled differently than the Aramaic name Yeshua`.
The "Micky Mause" site you refer to is run by Paqid Yirmeyahu who is a former Baptist minister who converted to Orthodox Judaism with his belief in Ribi Yehoshua` un-denounced and well-known. He now lives in Israel and is a member in good standing in a Yemenite Orthodox synagogue. Hardly mickey mouse.
Aharon,
ReplyDeleteAnd of course because of your ignorance you take the word of any heretic heck that gave himself a title (paquid?), and started a Micky Mouse website as the gospel, right?
FYI, I am an Israeli Jew, born and raised in Israel, and I am telling you: get off this foolishness before it is too late for you...
Dan,
ReplyDeleteWhatever. I'm not Messianic.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI want to add that I love and respect you as a fellow Jew.
It seemed to me by our interaction that you were unaware of the source of the names Yehoshua` and Yeshua`, but now I know that is incorrect. I apologize for belittling you; my words were based on the perception you gave.
שלום אחי