Import jQuery

Passing thoughts on “One Law”

With First Fruits of Zion’s recent theological shift, which says Jews and gentiles in Messiah have different obligations to the Law, part of me wants to not-care.

The pragmatic, practical Messianic in me says, “it doesn’t matter”. I’ve never called myself a “One Law” advocate – that label has been put on me by others. For a very long time, I have been uncomfortable with the idea that, for example, it is a sin for gentiles to eat pork. In fact, a co-worker asked me this very question earlier this year, this Spring,

So, do you think it’s a sin for Christians like me to eat pork?

I stammered. Eventually I answered, “Well. I don’t know.”

My own wife and son don’t eat kosher. Not that I don’t want them to – I very much want to have them see eye-to-eye with me on this issue – but they weren’t eating kosher when I married my wife and adopted my son, and to this day, they don’t eat kosher.

And my own observance of Torah is lacking in many areas – in kosher matters, I’m not stringent. An Orthodox Jew wouldn’t approve. (Not that I’m looking for approval, praise God.) A conservative Jew might. I don’t regularly wear fringes as a sign of the covenant. (Commandment #84, in case you were wondering.) Instead, I wear them only on shabbats and holy days. My own commandment-keeping is a bit lethargic. I’m hesitant to be so bold and brassy as to say, “failure to keep God’s commandments is sin”, when clearly I do a poor job of it myself. I’m compromised.

But, but, but…

On the other hand, I’ve seen the other side, and I don’t like it.

On the other side is greater division between Jews and gentiles. MJTI chief honcho rabbi Stuart Dauermann will tell you a gentile shouldn’t be welcomed in a Messianic congregation unless he is married to a Jew, or has some legitimate service to give to the Jewish people (Read: the gentile may be welcomed if he gives finances and sits quietly in the back.)

The other side doesn’t know what to do with gentiles in the Messianic movement. For many, they aren’t looked at as a blessing. “Oh, to have more Jews, and fewer gentiles!” is the quietly-held desire.

Some on the other side are vehemently opposed to gentiles keeping commandments. “Don’t keep Passover, like Yeshua did”, they say, “because that’s something only for Jews. Instead, you can celebrate your own holidays, like the 4th of July, and do it in remembrance of Messiah.”

Oiy.

The other side blames the independent Messianic movement, as is currently trendy to do so, for many of the ills of Messianic Judaism. “If only we could get rid of those crazy gentiles, and all those independents, and their theologies, Messianic Judaism would be pure as water.” It’s akin to the Medieval Roman Church lamenting those crazy Protestants.

The other side denies having any bias against gentiles, then accuses us of being anti-Jewish or opposing the God-ordained Jewish leadership of religion.

The other side wants organized religion done well, in pure fashion, without gentiles with gentile financial backing, and lots of Jews in the pews.

I’m certain this whole viewpoint is wrong, wrong wrong. Certain it’s not what the apostolic community intended. I’m confident in opposing it. And First Fruits of Zion has taken a step in that direction, the direction towards that other side.

Maybe it was needed, maybe the independents are too far to the right, maybe the independents made one too many mistakes, and FFOZ needed to take a step to the left. Maybe the One Law folks are really crazy, theologically amplifying a handful of commandments without really keeping them, and without focusing on the weightier matters of the Torah: mercy and justice, for instance. That’s probably true.

But it is a step toward that other side nonetheless. The other side where we know to exist abuses on the same scale as we have on this side. The way I see it, it’s a trade for people honestly trying to walk in God’s ways, and all the division and instability that causes, for organized religion in boxes, and all the division and instability that causes.

Imagine you’re a supporter of Barack Obama, and he just ceded healthcare to the Republicans. That’s how I feel right now, as if a dear friend and respected colleague ceded an important issue to “the other side”. One may say it was necessary, one may say there are valid reasons for the change. They may be true, but it is a shift towards the other side nonetheless, a side which is none better than that the side its dear friends remain on.

One Law and FFOZ

I remain unconvinced of FFOZ’s arguments. They have tried to say the apostles were united in agreement on the matter of gentile adherence to Torah, and that their agreement was simply the 4 laws of Acts 15. To me, this is an over-simplification. To me, Acts 15 is a compromise between Peter and James, with the Holy Spirit approving of that compromise. That compromise was not one-sided, yet today, the other side makes it out to be.

To me, the FFOZ view is one that doesn’t properly consider that in the 1st century, gentiles were hearing Torah preached weekly in the synagogues. That doesn’t happen in modern times. Instead, we have Moses being disregarded, or in some cases, spoken against, weekly in the churches. While FFOZ has amplified the fact that the Torah was given to Israel, a distinct people-group at a distinct time in history, it doesn’t not properly apply the same standard to apostolic writings, which had been given to a distinct people-group at a distinct time in history.

And while FFOZ explains the view as nothing more than the difference in commandments between e.g. men and women, it does not account for the fact that Messiah changed the relationship of gentiles to the Law. Before, gentiles were apart from the covenant. Now, they’re near, grafted in, and fellow heirs. In Messiah, Jews and gentiles are held to the same standard before the Lord, all equals. With FFOZ’s new view, such cannot be said with a straight face. I cannot harmonize these without much theological hoop-jumping.

Conclusion

God does want all his people following all his commandments. In the Messianic kingdom, it will, in fact, be a sin for gentiles to skip out on the Feasts. The thrust of the Scriptural goal is to create a single, holy people before God, and that people is Israel.

I am utterly uncomfortable and uneasy with the idea that, for gentiles, a long, loose line is cast out for walking in Godliness. The line is, “Hey, God’s invited you to keep his commandments.” That sounds good, but it sounds bad when the full story is told, “Hey, God’s invited you gentiles to keep his commandments. But you Jews, you have no option, you must keep God’s commandments.”

Yet, the pragmatist in me keeps me from saying these things too loud. Maybe it doesn’t matter in real life, in the day-to-day practical living of this Messianic. But it sure feels like it matters in the long-term Spirit-leading of this movement.

47 comments:

  1. As a spectator watching all this, I have some input for others to consider.

    It is not a matter of Judaism vs. non-Judaism, Judaism vs. Underdog Messianic Gentiles, Judaism vs. Ephraimitism, heaven forbid. Anyone who honestly studies the Tanakh will see that the House of Judah who are the Jewish people have been the carries of the Light of Torah since the other guys left.

    Now before I continue, for the (Two Law?) Messianic Jews reading, this does not even require adhering to a theology that believes there are Israelites among the gentiles. If you think Jews are the one and only Israel, you're truly right in one respect.

    This is because if any Israelites were lost among the goyim, they are going to be goyim today, not Israelites. They may descended from Israelites, sure, but they're not Israelites today, and who can prove they have been descended from Israelites anyway? There is some evidence for general people groups like the Celts, but what about the individual person?

    So if one believes in the Ephraimite theory, the following is true:
    Gentiles and Ephraimites are one group.

    This does not mean that every single gentile needs to come to Torah, Heaven forbid, that is not the Creator's will, it is contrary to it.

    Only circumcised Israelite men can partake of the Passover according to the simple command of Torah. Can exceptions be made outside the Land? I am not going to speculate, I am just saying what the Torah commands.

    Will they come up to keep Sukoth? Perhaps so, as it indicates in the Prophets, however, does this automatically mean every gentile is going to be a Torah keeper? Chas v'Shalom.

    ReplyDelete
  2. TYING THESE PARAGRAPHS TOGETHER...

    We have one verse that explains it all for every single Messianic group mentioned here. Its simple, and I protest that the people who over-complicate it to make it say what its not saying are the the misguiders.

    Zechariah 8:23

    כֹּ֥ה אָמַר֮ יְהוָ֣ה צְבָאֹות֒ בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֔מָּה אֲשֶׁ֤ר יַחֲזִ֙יקוּ֙ עֲשָׂרָ֣ה אֲנָשִׁ֔ים מִכֹּ֖ל לְשֹׁנֹ֣ות הַגֹּויִ֑ם וְֽהֶחֱזִ֡יקוּ בִּכְנַף֩ אִ֨ישׁ יְהוּדִ֜י לֵאמֹ֗ר נֵֽלְכָה֙ עִמָּכֶ֔ם כִּ֥י שָׁמַ֖עְנוּ אֱלֹהִ֥ים עִמָּכֶֽם׃

    Thus said the Transcendent One of Armies, in those days it will be that they will grasp hold, ten men from all tongues of the gentiles will grasp hold at the corner of a Jewish man saying, 'We will go with you(plural) for we have heard that God is with you(plural).'


    Whoever these 10 men are doesn't matter, there will be 10 men of various nations/gentiles who will grasp hold of a Jewish man by the corner - stop right there, why the "corner"? Its not some a vague reference to some edge of his garment.
    The word "kanaf" (corner; wing) of a Jewish man is his tassel which is commanded of him to wear in BaMidhbar (Numbers) 15, in the verses in the Torah commanding this, the tassel is to be placed at the kanaf/corner.
    Thus, the kanaf/corner has become a Hebrew idiom for the tassel which represents the whole Torah.


    Any Hebrew/Israelite/Jew will know what symbolism is happening here. 10 gentiles are grabbing hold of the Torah of a Jewish man and asking to be takem with "-khem", that is "you" in the plural sense, meaning all of Judah, the Jewish people.
    This, we should know, is going to happen, and we can learn from this the proper attitude of those who will do this.

    From this we learn:
    1. There will be some gentiles who grasp hold of the Torah of Judaism and will be taken among the Jews (converts).

    2. It is not all the nations/gentiles/goyim.

    3. The proper way for these "returning gentiles" is to grab hold of the Torah of the Jew - not create their own religion.

    4. Torah is not restricted to these gentiles, but it is by process of becoming Jews that they are to keep all of Torah.

    In my opinion, there are lots of people who are in the process of coming to this point. The reason it is such a long process is because they are resistant towards Judaism and are delaying their own process. Old doctrines, misconceptions, and teachings fill their mind and cause them to adhere to old presets which automatically assume as base knowledge that the Jews are damned, there is some sort of new group of God's people besides Israel (the Jews) today, or that Yeshua` did created some new group or new classification for them to belong in.

    ReplyDelete
  3. You have some interesting ideas as always, Aaron.

    You said, This does not mean that every single gentile needs to come to Torah, Heaven forbid, that is not the Creator's will, it is contrary to it.

    What about Messiah-loving gentiles in the Christian Church?

    It is interesting what you say about the Zechariah prophecy. We've talked about this in person before. Is the end result for all Torah-seekers conversion to Judaism?

    ReplyDelete
  4. Judah,

    What about Messiah-loving gentiles in the Christian Church?

    It probably depends on the individual, and I am confident HaShem will bring all his sheep home (since I do believe in the theology of Ephraim being among the nations).

    It is interesting what you say about the Zechariah prophecy. We've talked about this in person before. Is the end result for all Torah-seekers conversion to Judaism?

    The thing we have to realize is that who is Israel today? The Jewish people. They are Israelites and always have been.
    It was the way for gentiles who were affected by the teachings of the talmidim of Yeshua` to convert to Judaism and become known as Jews - this is certainly a fact and was even so in the once-in-the-Tanakh-book of Tobit where literal real-life Ephraimites in Assyrian captivity were faithful to Torah, and were named Jews.

    The only group who is recognized as Israel by the whole world are the Jewish people, it is not wrong, evil, or incomplete to attach oneself to the Jewish people, in fact, that is why Ezekiel 37 instructs to put the stick of Ephraim upon the stick of Judah; Judah is the base wherein returning gentiles become part of Israel through.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I believe HaShem has allowed the name Judah to be a synonym for Israel because not only of Judah's faithfulness to Torah and becoming the only remaining Israelites, but because it is a title meaning "I will praise the Transcendent One",

    Judah/Yehuda = YHWDH
    YHWDH = ADH+YHWH
    ADH = Praise/thanksgiving

    One is not only marked with The Name through the title Jew/Yehudi, but is marked as one who praises/gives thanks to Him.

    ReplyDelete
  6. As Aharon said, "it is not all that complicated.."

    Yeshua told His talmidim, "love YHWH with all your heart, mind, soul, and, strength and, love your neighbor as yourself. For this is the sum of the Torah and the prophets."

    It is the fulfillment of Torah and those who walk this way are Torah observant. Period. Whether or nor not they ever keep a feast or honor a Shabbat they are Torah observant. Their family tree is meaningless in this light, and there is no judgement against them on the final day.

    Sure we can go on about the details until we drive each other crazy, as we tend to do, but will that bring us any closer to the goal of being one in Him?

    No, it won't.

    The much longed for unity of the faithful will not occur around Torah. It was not meant to and it just won't happen. Torah brings division, always has, always will.

    On the other hand, the Spirit of YHWH bring peace and unity to all who put their trust in Him.

    Do those who believe they are Jews and that they are required to keep Torah really think that that is what they are doing? If someone wears tzit tzit on their belt loops and has compassion and love for others, which part of that scenario is of value? The first part or the second part? And if a person walks in love as commanded by Messiah, does anyone really believe it matters what they tie on their pants?

    I suppose it would if all you were looking for was talking points among other believers. Hopefully that is not the case.

    Again I have to ask, is someone who has been born of the Spirit of YHWH and washed in the blood of the Lamb and immersed into His body still just a citizen of the unbelieving nations (Gentiles)?

    Could someone show me the scriptures that put forth that proposition?

    I would really like to know. For it seems that there are some who think that they have found those verses and continue to put forth the idea that the new creature is really just the old one with a different name attached.

    I don't see it.

    I've said it before, I too am sorry to see FFOZ go this way.

    A lesson for us all I think.

    Shalom,

    Efrayim

    ReplyDelete
  7. Judah,

    You probably wouldn't know this, but Tobit 11:16 has two variant readings in the Septuagint. One is tois Ioudaiois or "the Jews," and another is adelphois autou or "his brethren." I assume you're reading from either the RSV or NRSV which follows the reading "the Jews," whereas the KJV and English Standard Version Apoc. have "his brethren."

    The challenge with a text like Tobit is that it was compiled later in Jewish history. The differences in variant readings mean that there are going to be some First Century period opinions reflected back (anachronistically) into events portrayed centuries earlier. The more correct reading, of course, is "brethren."

    ReplyDelete
  8. Judah..,

    "On the other hand, I’ve seen the other side, and I don’t like it. On the other side is greater division between Jews and gentiles."

    Until you realize that Messianic Judaism is an environment where JEWS who are believers can continue in the Torah, can learn and continue the Jewish/rabbinical traditions of their fathers, a place where they can preserve their OWN culture in the face of rampant assimilation, and perhaps, just perhaps pass it on to their children, a place where their children may actually find other Yeshua-believing Jews to marry (wow, what discrimination against other nations - Jews who want to marry "in") - you will continue to not "like it".

    Messianic Judaism WITH Yeshua is not some ultimate universal faith expression for all the nations to follow. The One-Law has movement tried and failed to paint it as one - it failed because it is based on false assumptions and twisted theologies that are just continuations of various Replacement Theologies. It tried to do it by attacking a legitimate Gentile expression of faith called "Christianity", the very faith that birthed them.

    It didn't help matters that many of the groups in the movement are anti-semitic (clearly expressed via their resentment of "rabbinics" Judaism and their blaming of Messianic Jews for their problems.)

    Frankly Judah, I don't remember the last time you expressed ANY concern for the wellbeing of Jews in the Messianic Jewish movement or for the need to reach out to other Jews. Instead, more often than not, we are blamed for the very existence of the "independent Messianic movement" (yes, in quotes) and that we are actually responsible for that movement's turn to damaging and often plain nutty theologies.

    However, what I do see is lack of respect for the Jewish leadership (as your language in this post about R. Dauermann demonstrates) and Messianic Jewish organizations and their Jews-focused teachings and ministry in general.

    "Read: the gentile may be welcomed if he gives finances and sits quietly in the back."

    We welcome non-Jews who express love for our people - but we are not here to turn them into Jews. Why else would they want to become a part of our VERY ethnic congregation if not because of their love for our people (other than for curiosity sake or hatred of Christianity)? Whether they do it through their talents, finances, moral support and plain heartfelt fellowship and friendship, when they truly express their love for our nation - yes, we WANT them as part of our congregations.

    Besides that, is it not scriptural for Gentile believers to financially assist struggling Jewish congregations - even while remaining in their own? (read Romans 15:27). But did my congregation ever get any financial support from a church or an "independent messianic congregation" - not a penny. Not that G-d is unfaithful to provide!

    Shalom...

    ReplyDelete
  9. Gene,

    I understand much of your frustration, and I would share many of your opinions about the independent Messianics. They abhor mainline Jewish traditions, and they have no sensitivity for your unique needs as a Believer. This is wrong. As a first generation movement, Messianic Judaism is still very much struggling with the idea of what it means to be a Believer in Yeshua and still be Jewish. Jewish families often have funerals for those who have received Yeshua. Learning to live as a Messianic Jew with these difficulties is not going to happen instantaneously. Adding anything to this at the present time, could be a bit premature.

    I have always known and taught that if God's plan for the Messianic movement is bigger than the vision of current Messianic Judaism, then today's generation of leaders are not those who will come together and bring it about. I have also asked people like yourself, previously, for those of us who share some different convictions to be given the necessary time we need to develop a more comprehensive theology. It will not happen in a mere matter of weeks or months. Are you willing to give us some time and space, and let the old guard (the unreasonable persons with whom you have likely had to interact) be retired?

    Perhaps a friendly detente is all that can really be achieved in the short term, as we let time take its course. I appreciate your candid thoughts, and I would hope that we can all learn something from the recent series of events.

    ReplyDelete
  10. JK McKee,

    There are also [more original] Aramaic translations of Tobit as well as fragments of [even more original] Hebrew.

    Efrayim,

    " If someone wears tzit tzit on their belt loops and has compassion and love for others, which part of that scenario is of value? The first part or the second part?"

    Intent is certainly important, I completely agree, but heart motive doesn't annul obeying the commands correctly. Intent combined with proper observance of the commands is ideal and necessary. If one consciously is disobeying a command, knowing better, it doesn't matter much what his heart's intent is.
    As you said,
    "Yeshua told His talmidim, "love YHWH with all your heart, mind, soul, and, strength and, love your neighbor as yourself. For this is the sum of the Torah and the prophets.""

    And in Luke 10:25-28
    "And behold, a Scribe stood up to try him, and said: Teacher, what must I do, to inherit eternal life? And Yeshua said to him: How is it written in the Torah? How do you read it? He answered and said to him: You shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might, and with all your mind; and your neighbor, as yourself Yeshua said to him: Thou hast said correctly; do this, and you will live."

    It is that simple. I personally am of the opinion that everyone who is truly seeking discipleship of Yeshua`, including gentiles, should become fully observant, as their Master. I believe Yeshua` did not come to make Jews into gentiles, but gentiles into Jews.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Gene should tell his leaders in the UMJC to kick all the Gentiles out. But of course that will not happen because UMJC wants to have the cake and eat it too.

    Gene, Your whining is boring. As soon as The UMJC declared itself a Jewish organization, and then compromised and took Gentile in, it made its deathded.

    Adios UMJC, you are gone. Maybe not today or tommorow, but you are gone.

    Blessings

    Dan

    ReplyDelete
  12. Hi Dan... sorry to have bored you, but you're repeating yourself while making little sense. If you knew anything about UMJC, you'd know that there are different voices expressing different views and opinions regarding the extent of Gentile involvement. BUT NO ONE is advocating or even thinking to exclude all Gentiles (even those congregations who could financially afford to do so). I myself don't advocate this. My friends do not advocate this. This is because even non-Messianic synagogues routinely welcome Gentiles worshipers. The point of contention, however, is the Gentile level of involvement in congregational leadership, decision making, overall movement's direction as well non-Jewish participation in Jewish ritual and community life in general.

    That said, I am willing to wager to anyone here that my personal (off-line) level of involvement with GENTILE believers who are IN and OUTSIDE of Messianic Judaism is far, FAR greater than Judah's or your average independent Gentile Messianic's involvement with JEWISH believers. This, however, doesn't prevent me from keeping my focus on the "Jewish ball".

    Dan.... I am not sure if I asked you before, but can you please post a link to your congregation's website - I'd really love to check you guys out to see where you're coming from. You can even send it to me privately, if you wish (via this form: http://www.bethavinu.org/contact-us)

    Thanks in advance!

    Gene

    ReplyDelete
  13. JK... thank you for your comments.

    I am starting to see some very encouraging signs that reconciliation and moving forward is quite possible, especially in the light on the recent news from FFOZ.

    I do not expect most One-Law non-Jews (or even Christians) to sympathize, but one of the major concern of Jews in Messianic Judaism (and that of all Jews who care about their nation) is preserving of a Jewish distinction (especially of our children). As long as we keep hearing from people like Aharon that "... Yeshua` did not come to make Jews into gentiles, but gentiles into Jews," - it will remain an uphill battle. With FFOZ recent shifts, the battle just got easier, and I am thanking HaShem for that.

    ReplyDelete
  14. That's one major difference between you and I, Gene. I see the Messianic movement much bigger than just "Jews believing in Jesus".

    ReplyDelete
  15. Thank you, Gene.

    I appreciate you voicing your concerns. I think that one of the things that most young, non-Jewish Messianics feel presurred to do is marry a Jewish spouse, for a variety of reasons. While I would not necessarily oppose intermarriage, I would not strongly encourage it either. As a current bachelor, it would not be my plan to marry a Jewish woman. It is something that we should see for less than 10% of potential marriages.

    I say this not because two people can't be in love and that it can't work, but because of what to do with the children afterward. I myself am a second generation product of a kind of intermarriage: my paternal grandmother got ex-communicated for marrying a Protestant. I have an entire line of my family I know very little about, even though it is quite large. I don't want something like this to ever happen to my future children.

    I think there are some safer positions that can be developed than non-Jewish Torah observant people becoming "Jewish." This is what will need some (considerable) time to be worked through, especially between the balance of congregational protocol, Biblical expectation, and post-Biblical period Jewish culture.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Gene, you said,

    "Frankly Judah, I don't remember the last time you expressed ANY concern for the wellbeing of Jews in the Messianic Jewish movement"

    Yeah, you're totally right. I should be blogging about the plight of Messianic Jews, or their being persecuted in Israel, or Messianic Jewish aliyah issues, or assimilation problems, or financial hardships. What was I ever thinking?! Good thing you were here to straighten me out. I'll get right on fixing that.

    ReplyDelete
  17. "I say this not because two people can't be in love and that it can't work, but because of what to do with the children afterward."

    I concur. It can be very painful for the children of all kinds of intermarriage - especially when there are great cultural and religious differences.

    "I think there are some safer positions that can be developed than non-Jewish Torah observant people becoming "Jewish."

    Personally, I am beginning to see a value in Noahide-like Torah observance and worship for non-Jews, with close integration and fellowship with the believing Jewish community, reflecting the reality of Acts 15. I see a necessity for Gentile celebration of certain Jewish Holy Days, especially Passover and feasts of Booths (in close cooperation with the Jewish Messianic community). I am OK with Gentiles developing their own faith traditions (as Jews have).

    ReplyDelete
  18. The first generation may not be ready for all of the Jewish and non-Jewish issues that will need to be addressed over the long term future (30-50 years I estimate). We will need to consider whether a complimentarian model of ecclesiology (equal but separate roles) or an egalitarian model of ecclesiology (equal with mutual submission) is ideal.

    We also have to remember that it took about 200 years or so for the Protestant movement to really get established, as its positive fruit was not that manifest until the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries. I do not think it will take the Messianic movement this long, but our issues will certainly not be solved in a mere ten years.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Judah...

    "Yeah, you're totally right. I should be blogging about the plight of Messianic Jews, or their being persecuted in Israel, or Messianic Jewish aliyah issues, or assimilation problems, or financial hardships. What was I ever thinking?! Good thing you were here to straighten me out. I'll get right on fixing that."

    Do you notice a pattern in just about all of your pro-Messianic Jews posts - how the bad RABBINIC Jews are out to get them?

    But I'll glad to straighten you out further if you need help. How about addressing concerns such as blurring and decimation of the Jewish identity in the Messianic movement or the rampant intermarriage among Jews, or the anti-Judaism/antisemitism and replacement theology in the independent messianic movement?

    ReplyDelete
  20. "Do you notice a pattern in just about all of your pro-Messianic Jews posts - how the bad RABBINIC Jews are out to get them?"

    Gene, I love rabbinic Judaism. The "evil rabbinics" are not the cause Messianic financial woes, aliyah issues, nor assimilation problems. Never made such a claim.

    Let me put this delicately as I can: you are projecting all the ills you perceive in the independent Messianic movement onto me. Don't do that.

    ReplyDelete
  21. "Let me put this delicately as I can: you are projecting all the ills you perceive in the independent Messianic movement onto me. Don't do that."

    I am not, so don't get all uptight - in fact, just I recently commended you for your steady shift away from much of that nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  22. How about instead of changing the subject, as you so often do when your realize you're wrong, we address the false statements you made, Gene:

    "Judah doesn't have ANY concern for Messianic Jews"

    and again

    "Judah thinks the BAD RABBINIC Jews are out to get [Messianics]".

    I hope you have the good nature to recant those false statements.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Judah... how about quoting me correctly:

    "Frankly Judah, I don't remember the last time you expressed ANY concern for the wellbeing of Jews in the Messianic Jewish movement or for the need to reach out to other Jews."

    First of all - I meant concern for Jews in the MJ movement proper (meaning, in your own backyard - the American movement of which you're part - not just the tiny community of Israeli believers, most of whom are Evangelicals at this time: http://www.zvisadan.com/?27,the-israeli-messianic-community-an-overview) and Jewish outreach in general.

    "Judah thinks the BAD RABBINIC Jews are out to get [Messianics]". "

    What I said: "Do you notice a PATTERN in just about all of your pro-Messianic Jews posts - how the bad RABBINIC Jews are out to get them?"

    I am sorry, but I do see a pattern in your posts, where you do not address the concern of the domestic Messianic Jews (who far, FAR outnumber the Israeli Jews) - but have take the "other side" approach.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "First of all, I meant concern for Jews in the MJ movement proper"

    Ah, back-peddling Gene. Classy.

    When you are shown to be wrong, you claim you meant something else, in order that you need not apologize for your antics.

    "I am sorry, but I do see a pattern in your posts, where you do not address the concern of the domestic Messianic Jews, where you do not address the concern of the domestic Messianic Jews"

    Fine blog readers, notice the change: Before, the problem was me attacking the "evil rabbinics". Now, the problem is that I'm not properly addressing domestic Messianic Jewish issues.

    I wonder what sinister thing I'll be accused of next!

    ReplyDelete
  25. "I wonder what sinister thing I'll be accused of next!"

    How about we stop right here - I don't think we'll be getting any positive resolution.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Judah:

    It is my hope that a large segment of MJ can discuss this and come to some center.

    I believe without a doubt that you and thousands like you are in MJ because God drew you to love Israel and Torah.

    I think along the way, some voices have been hijacking Israel's renewal and trying to make it a Torah movement instead of a movement for Israel's renewal.

    We need to be about what God is about: not getting Christians to give up pork chops, but working for that day when all Israel knows Yeshua and understands the full gospel of the kingdom and not the shallow gospel of popular religion. God has been and still is redeeming the world through Israel.

    I believe God brought non-Jews like myself and like you into MJ for good reasons and I hope the confusion will end. I believe many are candidates for conversion but resist it for reasons that have less to do with Biblical research and more to do with pre-conceived bias. I do not think that all Gentiles in MJ need convert, and there is plenty of room for God-fearering non-Jews in a Jewish renewal movement. But some people have Jewish souls and don't even realize it.

    Yeah, I think you are one of them.

    Derek Leman

    ReplyDelete
  27. I have a new term I'd like to dub: Guerrilla Internet Fight. It's like Guerrilla Warfare, except for internet arguments.

    It goes like this:

    1. Out-of-nowhere assault using some insults and accusations.

    2. When confronted with a response, retreat with "well, what I really meant was..."

    3. Use diversive tactics to avoid the enemy: change the subject, ignite a straw man, resort to ad-hominem.

    4. When accountability for the comment is demanded, raise the white flag with, "Maybe we should just end this."

    ReplyDelete
  28. Derek,

    You suggest I'm a gentile. (As has Gene, when he says things like, "your supposedly Jewish, right?")

    I am Jewish. My father now has records of our Minnesota-based relatives, some 70 years ago, attending Hebrew school before they converted to Catholicism.

    Also, there is something to be said for having been raised a son of the commandments from an early age to adulthood.

    But I don't care to prove Jewishness. I don't care to brag about being Jewish. Too many are so focused on genealogy or physical descent, we forget that the thrust of the Scriptures is to create a single, holy people before God, with Torah as their standard of righteousness.

    ReplyDelete
  29. But what about this Judah Gabriel?

    http://elshaddaiministries.podomatic.com/player/web/2009-06-28T10_37_00-07_00

    ReplyDelete
  30. Yes. I am proud of that message. Of course if I could do it again I would perhaps articulate some things a bit better, if I wrote it would be edited carefully, but I would essentially give the same message today. You should also listen part one of the same message to hear the whole thing in context—it is only fair if it is going to be critiqued.

    Much of the message is based upon our new book, Grafted In. Some people have highlighted that I say, “Gentiles have know relationship to Torah, etc.” as if I am saying, “Stay away!” Within the context I was saying, “don’t leave Messiah once you come to Torah…he is your (as a Gentile) only connection to the Torah, keep him central, keep him as your focus…”

    For the sake of the reputation of our Master Yeshua, be reasonable and peacable. Stop the hunt—keep Torah, imitate Messiah.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Shalom Judah. One of the things that I have always enjoyed about your blog is that you usually rise above the fray.

    Along with WWYD(WWJD) we should ask WWSD, what would satan do? If I were satan, how would I tear apart a movement? I guess I would try to come up with issues that cause the disciples to waste their time arguing. In the New Testament, we never see much time spent on theological debates. I wonder why?

    ReplyDelete
  32. Greetings my dear friends,

    I am Messianic #4. My opinion differs from all of yours. I am neither One Law, nor Two Law, but Three Law, I believe that the Torah is for Jews, the Prophets are for Christians, and the Writings are for everyone else. This is because I found some verse somewhere in the New Testament which doesn't say this at all, but I twisted it without even proper logic and made it my new theology.

    If you disagree, I am going to form a new Messianic group and be at odds with you. And you're Satan.

    I will now quote a multitude of passages taken right out of context and proper understanding just so I can slander you. Here goes...

    "Evil Pharisees, go to hell" -YAHshua 3:16
    The Pharisees today are both Jews and Messianics like you guys, and Christians. You're all a bunch of self-loving hypocrites - like the evil Pharisees.

    "Synagogue of Satan, woe be ye" -YAHshua 7:7

    Woe be ye, sons of snakes (or whatever), since you're Phraisees and are therefore not really Jews. You're a synagogue of Satan, hurry up and go to hell. I'm the real synagogue of YAHshua. The fact you don't put YAH into everything shows you're all heathen pagan Pharisee Jews.

    Remember, YAHshua MashiYAH the MessiYAH has cursed YAHou, so YAHgo to YAHhell alYAHready.

    ShYAHlom
    -Messianic #4

    (This is really Aaron. Hilariously, I have actually seen someone spell it "MashiYAH" hahaha...)

    ReplyDelete
  33. Judah:

    It sounds like you are tired. I get that way often too.

    If I erred regarding your Jewish identity, it was not intentional, neither was it my main point. I apologize for my mistake and did not mean to hurt you.

    My point is that the Bible directs us to be very joyful about the renewal of Israel in Yeshua through which the world is renewed and the Age to Come arrives.

    It is sad when this Biblical ideal is replaced by something lesser: getting Christians to give up pork chops.

    I hope many in MJ can come back to center and keep the main thing the main thing. What say you?

    Derek Leman

    ReplyDelete
  34. @Messiah's Way,

    I usually have much patience with my critics. I didn't have patience this time.

    ReplyDelete
  35. @Derek,

    No problem. I wanted to clear that up for all my readers anyways. I realize that wasn't your main point, but I wanted to address it anyways.

    You asked what I thought of your main point. Part of the restoration of Israel is God putting a sincere and heartfelt love for Israel and for God's commandments. It's why there's this phenomenon of a massive gentile influx into Messianic Judaism. Folks in the UMJC/MJTI camps don't know what to do with this, and sometimes come out opposing it.

    ReplyDelete
  36. @Aaron,

    Clearly, I need to join your Church!

    A merry heart does good like a medicine. It is good to make light of this ugly situation.

    ReplyDelete
  37. "Part of the restoration of Israel is God putting a sincere and heartfelt love for Israel and for God's commandments. It's why there's this phenomenon of a massive gentile influx into Messianic Judaism. Folks in the UMJC/MJTI camps don't know what to do with this, and sometimes come out opposing it."

    In the MJ movement proper there are many non-Jewish folks that truly love Israel and Jewish people. I see them all the time in my own synagogue.

    However, as far as "independent messianic movement" is concerned, I don't think that this is the main reason (heartfelt love for Israel and certainly not for Jews who make up Israel) - at least not from my experience. These folks are pretty much detached from the Jewish community and often pride themselves by point out where "rabbis got it wrong".

    Perhaps you Judah are an exception? With exceptions in mind, I think that the primary reasons for folks joing IM congregations are:

    1)jealousy for Israel's choseness - these folks WANT to be and CLAIM to be Israel (including, what an acquaintance of mine once termed, "mitzvot-envy" - as in, why are Jews so special that they get their own commandments to observe?). This outlook is nothing new - there are plenty examples in history of similar pseudo-"Israelite" movements.

    2) hatred and demonization of Christianity as a paganized religion.

    I think these are the two primary motivators in One-Law and Two-House movements.

    Torah observance is a nice banner to get behind, but IS NOT the primary motivator for "Israelish" movements (since many are very laxed in observance or have their own "special" interpretation of what it means to observe Torah).

    ReplyDelete
  38. @Boaz,

    For the sake of the reputation of our Master Yeshua, be reasonable and peacable. Stop the hunt—keep Torah, imitate Messiah.

    I know. Sometimes I run out of patience with my critics. This whole thread highlights the division and bitter angst between factions of the Messianic movement. Poor representation of Messiah.

    That's one reason I like FFOZ. You're one of the few groups pulling for peace and unity, where unity does not mean "follow our values or get out".

    ReplyDelete
  39. Gene,

    You chide independent Messianics for demonizing the Christian Church. You're right, it's a problem.

    But you then demonize independent Messianics as jealous, Israel-wannabes with no love for Israel and God is not drawing them to the commandments.

    In 15 years, I've never met a person as you describe.

    Please be open to the possibility that most independent Messianics are not the selfish demons you describe.

    ReplyDelete
  40. "Sometimes I run out of patience with my critics. This whole thread highlights the division and bitter angst between factions of the Messianic movement. Poor representation of Messiah."

    Judah... last time I checked your blog, you seem to have only one "critic" and certainly only one that stresses you out on occasion - me. So, please, relax - things are not so bad. Certainly nothing to lose sleep over. And I do think you are a really nice guy - so, don't take things personally.

    "Please be open to the possibility that most independent Messianics are not the selfish demons you describe."

    I am sure that most are not "selfish demons":)

    ReplyDelete
  41. But Shlomo....

    If you and other Messianics are not MessiYAHnics and put YAH into everything... then you are slefish demons and synagogue of Satan Pharisees.

    -MessiYAHnic ("Messianic #4")

    ReplyDelete
  42. I just want to hug Gene, and Judah, and Aaron,and Boaz, all you guys. Just a good ol big OL HUG!! Yes!! Yes Lord! And amen.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Danny,

    I prefer you not say "lord" since it is completely pagan. Why not put YAH into everything? If you won't start doing that, I'll be at odds with you and call you an evil synagogue of Satan Pharisee.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Gene, you've been around for, what, a year? This blog has been running for over 5. My critics runneth over. :-)

    I bet you'll see a few come out of the wood work in the next post.

    ReplyDelete
  45. @Danny,

    Thanks man.

    @Aaron,

    What's sad is, there really are people who get upset over usage of the word "Lord". Or on the flipside, people who get upset over the usage of the name.

    Gah.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Blessings to all on this day of Tabernacles!!

    Regarding Michael Boaz's comment, there is no hunt except for truth and understanding.

    It is critical to understand when Yeshua was not present, many disciples reverted to the non biblical, religious thinking of Pharisaic Judiasm. Remember Peter's frame of mind before his vision prior to meeting Cornelius?

    Acts show us that the Apostles were still learning from the Ruach of Messiah Yeshua's teaching. They were working through their prejudices.

    Indeed, they reverted to the "Eighteen Measures" which had permeated their lives and minds from the teachings of Shammai.

    Acts 15 is misunderstood as an argument about what part of Torah Gentiles are to keep, but it was simply demonstrating how difficult it was for these first century Jewish believers to separate themselves from a prejudiced culture and teaching of Bet Shammai. The issue was the relationsip of the Rabbinic traditions established for the Gentiles to enter into salvation and the commonwealth by ritual conversion.

    There can be a lot of of confusion, perhaps even danger by reading the Scriptures without understanding the preconceived bias of the times.

    Studying Acts 15 without understanding the impact of the constraints of the 'doctrine' of "Eighteen Measures" gets in the way of discovering the truth God has hidden in His Word.

    Teaching against the pollution of the house of Shammai was a focus of Messiah's controversy with the Pharisees that is unseen unless we dig in and study the times, the places and the conflicts.

    But truth will be restored to this controversy in ALL assemblies by all of Torah not bits and parts: "And they shall teach my people [the difference] between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; [and] they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. Ezekiel 44:24

    ReplyDelete

Appending "You might like" to each post.