The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, an umbrella body for about 80 US congregations, is holding a three-day conference in Jerusalem that starts Thursday.
During the conference a number of issues will be discussed - including the recent public burning by haredim of New Testaments distributed by missionaries in Or Akiva, a bomb attack that seriously wounded the son of well-known Messianic Jew in Ariel and the attempt to disqualify a Messianic Jewish high school girl from this year's International Bible Quiz for Jewish youth.
"We are planning to call on the Israeli government to address the problem of discrimination against Messianic Jews who wish to make aliya," said Rabbi Russ Resnik, executive director of the US-based Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.
"Messianic Jews see Israel as the place of our past, from the earliest visit by Abraham to the modern rebirth of the Jewish state. And it is the place of our future, which will culminate in the messiah's return," Resnik said.
"We are avid supporters of Israel in the present, and that's why we brought our conference here. But we are also concerned about recent expressions of violence against Messianic Jews."
Protesting the Orthodox Jewish Discrimination of Messianic Jews
Derek Leman points us to the Jerusalem Post's article on Messianic Jews to Protest Discrimination.
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Judah,
ReplyDeleteI know that this is from an earlier post, where you were having a brief discussion with Gene regarding the Gentiles keeping Torah, but you made this comment:
"Ok Gene, you got me, Genesis doesn't say whether they did."
Gene had made the suggestion that there aren't any scriptures which point to any of the patriarchs keeping Torah. I beg to differ.
How about this one?
Genesis 26:5 "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
It seems that YHVH thought that Abraham had kept Torah.
Now I'm sure that the first question that someone might ask is, "which ones?"
Which is the kind of question that gets asked by people who think that YHVH occasionaly changes His mind about what He thinks is important.
I personally do not believe He does. He never changes.
I put this post here as I wasn't sure that you would still be reading the old ones. I hope that is ok.
Shalom,
Efrayim
Efrayim,
ReplyDeleteI do read all comments; I get emailed when someone makes a comment.
Thanks for catching that! Indeed, the Scripture shows a non-Israelite, a non-Jewish patriarch keeping the commandments long before Sinai. I stand corrected!
Thanks, Efrayim.
Judah... don't be so quick to retract your admission! What commandments did Abraham observe - the Laws of Moses???
ReplyDeleteNice try, Efrayim - you have misquoted me. I never said that "there aren't any scriptures which point to any of the patriarchs keeping Torah." What you do not find though is them following the Laws of Moses (as given to him by G-d). The patriarchs DID follow the Torah of G-d - the instructions which G-d gave to people BEFORE Moses (to Noah).
Since Torah is the first 5 books of Moses, naturally those books of Torah include Noah's Laws! Noah's Laws are not nation specific - they were given to ALL peoples.
What does Abraham's obedience to G-d have to do with our specific question in the discussion: whether or not Abraham observed Shabbat? Was not Noah ALSO a righteous man, obedient to G-d's Laws , commandments, and statues that were given to him? Were not those laws which were given to Noah the standards of G-d at that time?
The Law of Shabbat, as a day for PEOPLE abstaining from work, was first noted in Exodus 16:23-30.
By the same token you might as well claim that G-d required circumcision too BEFORE G-d required it of Abraham, since you seem to believe that All laws always existed, were for everyone and were always known and followed!
But don't listen to me, let's look at the Word of G-d (Exodus 31:12-1):
"12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a SIGN between ME and YOU for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is HOLY to YOU. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The ISRAELITES are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a SIGN between ME and the ISRAELITES forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' ""
Quite clear from scripture: Shabbat is a sign between Israelites and G-d.
Shalom,
Gene
@Gene, Avraham was following God's laws, not the Law of Moses (the Torah)...It's just that the Torah doesn't conflict with God's laws. In fact, the two are nearly synonymous: the Torah is merely an explicit, expounded, detailed version of God's laws given directly to Israel in written form.
ReplyDeleteHere's what I think. God's laws were known well before Sinai. These laws were expounded upon at Sinai; God made everything explicit at Sinai. Nonetheless, many of God's laws predate Sinai, including God making the Sabbath holy, circumcision, distinction between clean and unclean animals, having no other gods besides the Lord, to name a few.
If we say the laws God gave to Moses are God's laws given in their most explicit form, we must also say that following those explicit laws are a Good Thing To Do! :-) (Even if you're not a descendant of Jacob!)
It's true, many of them don't apply to us -- some laws are only for farmers, some for Levites serving in the Temple, some for Temple service, some for women only, others for men. Some can be carried out only in Israel, some only with the Tabernacle.
Yet seeing as how the Torah is a detailed, explicit form of God's commandments, and given that the Torah defines right and wrong, and given that it contains a detailed plan of how God wants his people to live their lives, then both Jews and gentiles ought to be in obedience to God's directions and instructions on how to live.
Judah... G-d wanted Israel to be a sanctified nation before Him, and chosen nation. Many of the Laws He gave Israel apply ONLY to Israel and many are given, specifically, as a SIGN of the covenant between Israel and G-d.
ReplyDeleteIf I could quote Paul:
"...who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises."
Do you notice to WHOM belongs "giving of the Law"? If the Law as given to Israel was already given, known and observed to and by people before Moses and Israel, Paul couldn't make such a statement.
"...both Jews and gentiles ought to be in obedience to God's directions and instructions on how to live."
Yes, but just as you mentioned farmers, levites, etc... the same thing applies to Jews and Gentiles - different obligations for different groups of people (I am repeating myself). And according to Acts 15, the Holy Spirit and the Jerusalem elders:
"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you [gentile believers] no greater burden than these essentials:
1) that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and 2) from blood and from 3) things strangled and 4) from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well.
Farewell.".
Farewell to you too, my friend:)
Gene
Judah,
ReplyDeleteAs I had suspected, you got it, Gene didn't.
Really Gene, the "law of Moses" did not exist before Moses?
Who knew?
Anyway, my comment was more for others, those who are seeking to understand where all this history of faith has some of its roots. Much can be learned from our father Avraham. And I also believe that at some point our heavenly Father expects us to be mature in our understanding and connect the dots for ourselves.
Those folks who insist on their religious bias have a lot of trouble getting those dots on the same page, much less conecting them.
In the future I will place my comments in the appropriate subject.
Thank you for your patience Judah.
Btw Gene, are we done on your forum? Discussing the reuniting of the two houses of Israel? It seems that many people have read what is there. Perhaps there is some interest after all.
Shalom,
Efrayim ( one of many )
Efrayim...
ReplyDelete"As I had suspected, you got it, Gene didn't."
I suppose it's just my spiritual immaturity, flesh, blindness and worldliness rearing its ugly head again:)
"Really Gene, the "law of Moses" did not exist before Moses? Who knew?"
I knew and many other folks did too (or so I thought)! While some Mosaic laws are basic moral laws that existed before (murder, etc), many of the Israel-specific laws of Moses, such as Shabbat, the feasts, Temple worship, purification laws, dietary laws, marriage laws, family relations laws, dealings with foreigners and their entry into Israel laws and regulations DIDN'T exist before Moses announced them to Israel.
If your want to be particular, they DID exist in the mind of G-d before they were given to Jews, if that's what you meant.
"And I also believe that at some point our heavenly Father expects us to be mature in our understanding and connect the dots for ourselves."
Come'on Efrayim... enough with the condescension. I am glad you've reached your maturity level. But be careful not to create NEW dots where none existed before!
"Those folks who insist on their religious bias have a lot of trouble getting those dots on the same page, much less conecting them."
Efrayim... we ALL have our "religious bias". Your bias is centered around the Two-House/Gentiles as the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel idea, from hence all your theological conclusions stem. My bias is that I, and most Jews and Gentiles I know just don't buy into that stuff. You think that some days Jew and Gentiles will all wake up and embrace the Two-House theology. I think that your theology (your bias) will go the way of British Israelism and Armstrongism, it's older, nearly identical, but now-feeble brothers.
"BTW Gene, are we done on your forum? Discussing the reuniting of the two houses of Israel? It seems that many people have read what is there. Perhaps there is some interest after all."
Yes, the forum gets a lot of visitors/readers, and there's indeed a lot of interest in the subject we discussed - too bad that most visitors don't add their own input. Sometimes I wish somebody would set me (or YOU) straight:)!
When I get more time, perhaps I'll start my own blog - I just don't know where Judah finds the hours in the days needed (or Derek, especially). For now there's the forum. PEOPLE - it's OK to post there instead of just read - I don't bite:)
bethavinu.org/forums/
Shalom,
Gene