tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post804735879333181393..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: One Christian View of TorahJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-53015273169571405752010-04-14T22:02:48.271-05:002010-04-14T22:02:48.271-05:00As soon as Jeremiah implied that you should only r...As soon as Jeremiah implied that you should only read the New Testament, I stopped listening. As a Gentile believer, I smelled decaying doctrines.<br /><br />"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16-17, NLT)<br /><br />I think Jeremiah is the one skirting close to dangerous territory. We must be very careful about tagging something as the work of the enemy.W^L+http://lnxwalt.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-925672321737100242010-04-11T08:38:31.372-05:002010-04-11T08:38:31.372-05:00Considering those things aren't kept like they...Considering those things aren't kept like they were in Yeshua's day, I think we're right to be stressing some of those things.<br /><br />On the other hand, if those things are stressed without regards to weightier matters, then we'd have a problem.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-10112934765545362822010-04-10T09:49:05.598-05:002010-04-10T09:49:05.598-05:00Shalom Judah,
I know I sound like a broken record...Shalom Judah,<br /><br />I know I sound like a broken record, but comments from someone like Jeremiah make me look at myself more. <br /><br />Yeshua and the disciples did not stress Sabbath, diet, tzitzits etc because those were the standards that Jews lived by already. What they spent their time talking about was loving your fellow man and other character issues. What does it say about the Messianic movement that others only see the "Jewish" things stressed?<br /><br />JeffMessiah's Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08980847043588208916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16305847752913549082010-04-10T09:20:30.085-05:002010-04-10T09:20:30.085-05:00I smell an SDA.I smell an SDA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-27843826204784112802010-04-06T22:57:40.233-05:002010-04-06T22:57:40.233-05:00Okay Dan. Let's leave this for now, I'll w...Okay Dan. Let's leave this for now, I'll write up a couple of posts on this issue later this week or maybe next week, and we can follow it up then.Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-67699253383774523982010-04-06T22:48:12.836-05:002010-04-06T22:48:12.836-05:00Joseph,
Eph. 2:15;
Look around Paul's epistl...Joseph,<br /><br />Eph. 2:15;<br /><br />Look around Paul's epistles to find a list of the transgression who will send one to hell..You will find the list includes more than 10.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-25070752785851066722010-04-06T22:45:06.974-05:002010-04-06T22:45:06.974-05:00Joseph;
Hope you know how to read Hebrew.
דבקות-...Joseph;<br /><br />Hope you know how to read Hebrew.<br /><br />דבקות--רכוז מלא של הכוונה.( מלון ספיר). <br /><br />It is not all about Orthodoxy.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70676040731838568542010-04-06T22:33:15.772-05:002010-04-06T22:33:15.772-05:00Acts 13:1? Now that is interesting, not seen that ...Acts 13:1? Now that is interesting, not seen that before :)<br /><br />Thanks Yahnatan & Dan, lots to think about. <br /><br />Re. ignoring the content of Torah: if you don't mind I'll draw up a post on this subject because it will take me a long time to explain otherwise, and I need to define my terms - I don't want to go round in circles otherwise.Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-27810602819698315542010-04-06T22:28:13.710-05:002010-04-06T22:28:13.710-05:00(In an effort to to bring us back to some common g...(In an effort to to bring us back to some common ground:) Joseph wrote:<br /><br />"<i>there is nothing more to Torah or the Prophets than to pointing us towards Yeshua.</i>"<br /><br />Even though we disagree on the details, we agree on the big picture here. The difference is that I see the Torah's instructions as pointing towards Yeshua particularly when they're obeyed. And while I agree that Amos's message points to Yeshua, I don't think you have to ignore the content of Amos's message ("God desires justice!"). Similarly, I don't think you have to ignore the content of the Torah ("God gave these commandments to Israel").Yahnatanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02321984415847643594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-5994216472380930432010-04-06T22:20:05.820-05:002010-04-06T22:20:05.820-05:00"> we have prophets after Yeshua
Could yo..."> <i>we have prophets after Yeshua<br /><br />Could you name one?</i>"<br /><br />Abagus. Also Judas, Silas, Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch), Saul. But obviously these prophets were not "capital P" prophets.<br /><br />"<i>the "old" prophets are still relevant for us, we couldn't understand Yeshua without them.<br />The same goes for the old law, though we no longer have the law in the same way, it doesn't mean it isn't relevant.</i>"<br /><br />So which is it? The "old" law and prophets are still relevant, but we don't have them in the same way. I'm afraid we're just going around in circles... :-)Yahnatanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02321984415847643594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89022784750322105652010-04-06T22:06:29.806-05:002010-04-06T22:06:29.806-05:00Joseph,
2 Cor. 3;
In order for this to fly you f...<em> Joseph,<br /><br />2 Cor. 3;<br /><br />In order for this to fly you first need to explain "the Law of commandments in ordinances..." (Ephs.2:15).</em><br /><br />Right okay, I will write a post on this, have been thinking about this all evening. I need to explain myself fully here, which I will do.<br /><br />Briefly - I think Eph 2:15 is a reference to the wider commandments outside the Ten - but even then it's talking about Yeshua has abolished them in his flesh.Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60640603207830735762010-04-06T22:04:01.185-05:002010-04-06T22:04:01.185-05:00Yahnatan, yes, I mean just as there are no new pro...Yahnatan, yes, I mean just as there are no new prophets, and we no longer have any prophets other than Yeshua, the "old" prophets are still relevant for us, we couldn't understand Yeshua without them.<br /><br />The same goes for the old law, though we no longer have the law in the same way, it doesn't mean it isn't relevant.<br /><br />Of course I think the writings of the Torah and the Prophets are totally relevant - that's my point.<br /><br /><br /><em>we have prophets after Yeshua</em><br /><br />Could you name one?Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50678395681133367302010-04-06T22:00:07.237-05:002010-04-06T22:00:07.237-05:00Dan, they're kabbalistic concepts:
http://en....Dan, they're kabbalistic concepts:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devekut<br /><br /><em>"Devekut, deveikuth or deveikus (Heb. דבקות , Mod. Heb. "dedication", traditionally "clinging on" to God) is a deep, trance-like meditative state attained during Jewish prayer, Torah study, or when performing the 613 mitzvot (the "commandments"). It is particularly associated with the Jewish mystical tradition"</em><br /><br />Kavanah:<br />http://www.kabbalah5.com/Kavanah.htm<br /><br />How are you using these terms, otherwise?Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-53193305715628745102010-04-06T21:48:16.397-05:002010-04-06T21:48:16.397-05:00Joseph,
2 Cor. 3;
In order for this to fly you f...Joseph,<br /><br />2 Cor. 3;<br /><br />In order for this to fly you first need to explain "the Law of commandments in ordinances..." (Ephs.2:15).Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-86874010641359002972010-04-06T21:38:01.525-05:002010-04-06T21:38:01.525-05:00"So whilst Yeshua didn't abolish the prop..."<i>So whilst Yeshua didn't abolish the prophets, there is now no longer any need for prophets because they have pointed towards their ultimate goal, Yeshua haMashiach. </i>"<br /><br />Do you mean there is no longer any need for [new] prophets [to continue prophesying]? Or do you mean there is no longer any need for the "capital P" Prophets (i.e. the Neviim of Torah-Neviim-Ketuvim). I disagree with either of those options (we have prophets after Yeshua, and we still need the message of the "capital P" prophets)...but I can't imagine they are what you meant. What <b>do</b> you mean, Joe? :-)Yahnatanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02321984415847643594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-77687312584272194732010-04-06T21:36:20.855-05:002010-04-06T21:36:20.855-05:00Joseph,
Kabbalistic? Stupid me, and here I thoug...Joseph,<br /><br />Kabbalistic? Stupid me, and here I thought that they are Hebrew words.....Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-27175059199214257422010-04-06T19:09:01.204-05:002010-04-06T19:09:01.204-05:00I think if we use dvekut and Kavanah in keeping To...<em>I think if we use dvekut and Kavanah in keeping Torah, we will do good.</em><br /><br />These are both kabbalistic concepts which aren't Biblical - they are at best anachronistic.Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-47606869660659267742010-04-06T19:03:49.765-05:002010-04-06T19:03:49.765-05:00Dan, which laws other than the Ten Commandments we...Dan, which laws other than the Ten Commandments were written on a tablet of stone?Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-9241430084012339422010-04-06T19:03:06.362-05:002010-04-06T19:03:06.362-05:00Are you using the old and tired Christian double-t...<em>Are you using the old and tired Christian double-talk on us now?</em><br /><br />What does that mean? Explain?Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1881862910688345632010-04-06T18:14:26.137-05:002010-04-06T18:14:26.137-05:00Joseph,
Also it is true that Paul uses the term l...Joseph,<br /><br />Also it is true that Paul uses the term law not in a monolithic way, this is the first I hear of him separating the 10 from the rest...Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-54756752426826793452010-04-06T18:08:03.026-05:002010-04-06T18:08:03.026-05:00Joseph,
Are you using the old and tired Christian...Joseph,<br /><br />Are you using the old and tired Christian double-talk on us now?<br /><br />I prefer to stick with yeshua, His word are quite clear, no need for explanations.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-64748143408083123952010-04-06T17:55:59.848-05:002010-04-06T17:55:59.848-05:00Dan, from Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus starts by saying:...Dan, from Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus starts by saying:<br /><br /><em>"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them."</em><br /><br />Yet in Hebrews 1:1, we read:<br /><br /><em>In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.</em><br /><br />The implication is that there are now no more prophets because Yeshua has come - the prophets' role is "in the past".<br /><br />So whilst Yeshua didn't abolish the prophets, there is now no longer any need for prophets because they have pointed towards their ultimate goal, Yeshua haMashiach. Yeshua did not disregard the prophets, indeed without them we wouldn't be able to appreciate what Jesus as Messiah really means in full.<br /><br />I believe this applies to the Mosaic Torah laws too - that is, they are worthy to be studied and as pointers towards Yeshua, and in doing so they fulfil their purpose for us. <br /><br />But there is nothing more to Torah or the Prophets than to pointing us towards Yeshua. This is a tremendously important role, and not one which I look down on, I just think their power is limited.<br /><br />Consider Jesus' words about John the Baptist in Luke 7:24-28:<br /><br /><em>24After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27This is the one about whom it is written: <br /><br /> " 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, <br /> who will prepare your way before you.'<br /><br />28I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."</em>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-76029405896348564812010-04-06T17:46:46.090-05:002010-04-06T17:46:46.090-05:00Could someone possibly show from the New Testament...Could someone possibly show from the New Testament that "the law" is anything beyond the Ten Commandments?<br /><br />Does "the law" in Paul only refers to the tablets of stone in the New Testament (based on a reading of 2 Corinthians 3, especially v.3 and v.7), or something else?<br /><br />What is the New Testament definition of "Torah" or "law"? I fear we're working from different definitions and assumptions, which may lead to possible misunderstandings.Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87206131772219369952010-04-06T17:36:20.620-05:002010-04-06T17:36:20.620-05:00Interesting discussion. But don't we all forg...Interesting discussion. But don't we all forget one thing? God is the judge, not us...<br /><br />I think if we use dvekut and Kavanah in keeping Torah, we will do good. There is a reason why God said He will put His Torah on our hearts and minds. There are so many laws that are not aplicable for us today, does this fact in anyway diminish the Torah?<br /><br />Ps. 1:2 says: "...But whose delight is in the Torah of Adonai, and in His Torah he neditates day and night..."<br /><br />On the other hand, what of the rabbinite who's meditate on the law day and night, but do not recognize Yeshua as God's sent Messiah?<br /> Jeremiah's diatribe notwistanding, the torah stands as long that God sais it stands (Matt. 5:17-20).Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87282438104437437332010-04-06T17:35:28.269-05:002010-04-06T17:35:28.269-05:00So how can Gentiles inspire Israel to jealousy (Ro...So how can Gentiles inspire Israel to jealousy (Romans 10:19; 11:14) if they have different moral requirements as believers in Jesus to Jews?Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com