tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post8017847469052105421..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Karaite leader Nehemiah Gordon responds to anti-missionary chargesJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-26672052131066076212011-09-08T16:14:41.060-05:002011-09-08T16:14:41.060-05:00Ama"n, watch your speech, or you're gone....Ama"n, watch your speech, or you're gone.<br /><br />I will not provide a forum for hateful or mocking speech. Your opponents here have spoken to you with respect; do likewise.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-82563834115093750832011-09-08T12:42:46.698-05:002011-09-08T12:42:46.698-05:00Yak, you're a clown. I'm a believer in HaS...Yak, you're a clown. I'm a believer in HaShem and Torah. Meaning I don't believe in the nude testament nor cheese-ass. I guess you missed where I was coming from.Ama"nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-20822844398758863792011-09-07T08:39:53.017-05:002011-09-07T08:39:53.017-05:00@ Ama"n
You wrote: "I assume your idea o...@ Ama"n<br />You wrote: "I assume your idea of 'apostate' includes authentic Judaism, which never accepted your views, a truly apostate religion..."<br /><br />Yikes! That is your assumption, not what I wrote. That makes it a moot point.<br /><br />"never accepted your views" -- what's that about? I asserted above that my views are "the sound doctrine of Scripture." Why would a believer take issue with that?!<br /><br />And now I know that my religion is "truly apostate"! I have not espoused a ~religion.~<br /><br />Ama"n you have amazing discernment.<br /><br />Not to mention that I did NOT claim to be pro-mainline Christianity.<br /><br />It just reads like you do not like the Bible. Bless you, Ama"n.<br /><br />YakAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62332558595399582322011-09-06T21:55:34.998-05:002011-09-06T21:55:34.998-05:00I like Rabbi3000's comment the best.
Ho humm...I like Rabbi3000's comment the best. <br /><br />Ho humm, all this talk around the water cooler.<br /><br />Nickel Creek said best:<br /><br />"with all this deception, it's hard not to wander away"<br /><br />ShalomRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-9634017862413232022011-09-06T10:15:33.974-05:002011-09-06T10:15:33.974-05:00Yak, you oppose authentic Judaism and the ancient ...Yak, you oppose authentic Judaism and the ancient tradition which exist today. So I don't see how you're reasoning that you're not 'apostate'.Ama"nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-77068556198849085872011-09-04T21:35:39.507-05:002011-09-04T21:35:39.507-05:00@ Ama"n
To paraphrase Forrest Gump: ~Aposta...@ Ama"n<br /><br />To paraphrase Forrest Gump: ~Apostate is as apostate does!~<br /><br />YakAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-4928869322867659562011-09-04T17:29:35.145-05:002011-09-04T17:29:35.145-05:00Yak,
I assume your idea of "apostate" i...Yak,<br /><br />I assume your idea of "apostate" includes authentic Judaism, which never accepted your views, a truly apostate religion, which is completely connected to and is the womb which birthed Christianity. Christianity, which is the greatest antisemitic and idolatrous force to ever have existed in the last two thousand years. Nice "discernment".Ama"nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-65869711198442202782011-09-03T20:36:49.864-05:002011-09-03T20:36:49.864-05:00Those who read/hear the Word carnally, don't g...Those who read/hear the Word carnally, don't get it [ref Matthew 13:10-15].<br /><br />Those with spiritual eyes to see the Truth and those with spiritual ears to hear the Truth get it [ref Matthew 13:16].<br /><br />It you put the opinions of the apostate on the same level as the true and faithful believer, you get confusion. Throw out the bad, hold fast to that which is good [ref 1 Thessalonians 5:22] (according to the sound doctrine of Scripture [Titus 1:9; 2:1, 5]).<br /><br />YakAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-76509277681344970102011-09-02T16:11:51.787-05:002011-09-02T16:11:51.787-05:00James, Thanks for the summery of the last 5 years ...James, Thanks for the summery of the last 5 years and thanks for discovering America.<br /><br />Judah, DITO! I am out of here too. Have a great Shabbat.Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-9556967701244475182011-09-02T09:33:57.176-05:002011-09-02T09:33:57.176-05:00The real question that should be asked is why Nehe...The real question that should be asked is why Nehemia Gordon is frequently involved with an opportunistic scoundrel like Michael Rood.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-8079246544255270262011-09-02T09:23:20.792-05:002011-09-02T09:23:20.792-05:00Guys,
As this discussion is wandering far off-top...Guys,<br /><br />As this discussion is wandering far off-topic, rehashing stuff we've covered numerous times, I'd like to use this opportunity to bow out of the discussion.<br /><br />Have a good shabbat.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-48936153760948579362011-09-02T06:35:54.381-05:002011-09-02T06:35:54.381-05:00Why are not the inspired Scriptures enough? Why do...<i>Why are not the inspired Scriptures enough? Why do we need some extra interpretation from people with agendas?</i><br /><br />Dan, we're all people with "agendas". There's no such thing as a completely objective human being. Even with the best of motives, we'll insert our personalities, beliefs, and biases into every situation. We'd like to think that "scripture interprets scripture" but who interprets the interpetation?<br /><br />Example: OL and "strict" (BE) MJ both interpret various parts of the Bible to say that (OL) both Jews and Gentiles are obligated to the exact same 613 commandments and that Jews and Gentiles (MJ/BE) have different covenant responsibilities to God. Assuming they can't both be right, then one or both parties are imposing their interpretation over the Biblical text.<br /><br />Example: The traditional Christian interpretation of Galatians is that Paul was killing the Torah dead for both Jews and Gentiles and that grace replaced the law. MJ and its various flavors interpret Galatians to say that the Torah is not dead and, if you read Lancaster's (FFOZ) recent book on Galatians, he interprets it as saying the Torah is for Jews but not for Gentiles.<br /><br />Why isn't the Bible enough? Because people read it and interpret it. Imagining that we can just pick a Bible up and read it in English and immediately, based on our own emotions and perspectives, understand exactly what God was saying 100% of the time is a little naive.<br /><br />As far as authorities go, we all (hopefullyl) determine some authority or school of thought that guides us in terms of what the Bible means. Judaism has a tradition whereby the wisdom of the sages carries authority (although if you read their opinions carefully, you'll see that they hold Biblical authority higher than Rabbinic authority). This is an alien concept to most Christians and make no mistake, the perspective of most OL/MJs is fundamentally a Christian perspective. That's why people like Dauermann and Gene are so difficult for the rest of us to understand.Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-44339904213068469272011-09-02T03:41:22.205-05:002011-09-02T03:41:22.205-05:00"Likewise, Judaism has, over the centuries, c..."Likewise, Judaism has, over the centuries, come to some bad conclusions as well."<br /><br />And that is coming from your opinion based on what? Someone who doesn't know the system of halakha nor how Judaism has worked during and after the times of the Sanhedrin can make a comment like that?<br /><br />You're basing your view on a rough overview of very general things. And you state your opinion, based outside of an understand of and outside of a life lived in Judaism; and that is very problematic.<br /><br />It all comes back to you setting yourself up as prime interpreter of the Torah. You think you can read the Tanakh in translation, and from that, decide that the "Rabbis" (whether you mean Sages of the Sanhedrin or later Rabbinic leaders is unclear) are in error. Even though they were authorized by the Prophets of their times and had been in succession since Sinai. I hope you see how problematic that is, and agree to change your ways.Ama"nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-79086779433961527002011-09-02T00:29:36.865-05:002011-09-02T00:29:36.865-05:00Why are not the inspired Scriptures enough? Why d...Why are not the inspired Scriptures enough? Why do we need some extra interpretation from people with agendas?<br /><br />Paul did not think so. He said:"...that from childhood you have known the sacred writing which are Able to give you the wisdom that leads to saluation through faith which in Messiah Yeshua (2 Tim. 3:15).<br />No mention of the talmud or Mishnah or the Oral Torah here is there? <br />"All Schriptures are inspired by God and profotsble for teaching for reproof. for correction for training in righteousness that the manof god may be adequate, equipped for every good work (3:16-17) No Talmud or Mishnah od any man written rules.<br /><br />Sometim all we need is a little deeper insight into Scripture.Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66916511261707934212011-09-01T23:54:06.674-05:002011-09-01T23:54:06.674-05:00"Technically speaking, scripture almost never..."Technically speaking, scripture almost never stands on its own. It almost always requires interpretation." --James<br /><br />Yes. And the best Bible-study tool (for interpretation) is to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.<br /><br />"But often the milkmaid, the cobbler - and the NFL coach - start creating biblical passages without the guidance of biblical experts, he says.<br /><br />"“You can see this manifest today in living room Bible studies across North America where lovely Christian people, with no training whatsoever, drink decaf, eat brownies and ask each other, ‘What does this text mean to you?’’’ Hazen says.<br /><br />"“Not only do they get the interpretation wrong, but very often end up quoting verses that really aren’t there.”" -- 'Actually, that's not in the Bible' CNN<br /><br />This is called "SYI Bible study" (i.e. share your ignorance BS) --hat tip to Rev Swindoll<br /><br />YakAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-3460237766649719922011-09-01T22:20:02.703-05:002011-09-01T22:20:02.703-05:00"I think we should always remain skeptical of..."I think we should always remain skeptical of those who teach about Yeshua, but do not acknowledge Him as Savior. This is true of a range of teachers...." --J.K. McKee<br /><br />That ~range~ should include mainline Christianity who preach a *false concept* of who the Messiah is, and do not follow The Way (for their traditions are more egregious that those which got the Pharisees soundly chastised [see Matthew 5:20].<br /><br />YakAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-83300829975750670612011-09-01T21:54:57.351-05:002011-09-01T21:54:57.351-05:00Of course, the counter-example is the Catholic Chu...Of course, the counter-example is the Catholic Church coming to some really bad conclusions themselves, including theology that led to the Crusades, the Inquisition, salvation-for-money, among other things.<br /><br />Likewise, Judaism has, over the centuries, come to some bad conclusions as well.<br /><br />While the CNN article points to some dumb-but-harmless interpretations by individuals, I can point to dumb-and-dangerous interpretations by big religious groups.<br /><br />All that said, our position is one that doesn't "shoot from the hip", rather, it puts Jewish and Christian tradition in their proper place: a reference point, firmly below Scripture, not a requirement for faithful living. After all, they're just traditions, invented by people. It's not as if God authored the Talmud or the Catechism.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-26343735080442085782011-09-01T16:30:31.217-05:002011-09-01T16:30:31.217-05:00OK, I'll jump in.
It seems like the current d...OK, I'll jump in.<br /><br />It seems like the current debate (and we've been here before) is between whether individuals should interpret the Bible for themselves or whether people should depend on groups of teachers/Rabbis/Pastors/experts to do the interpretation based on accepted and (sometimes) centuries-old standards. Technically speaking, scripture almost never stands on its own. It almost always requires interpretation. <br /><br />It's interesting that you compared the Catholic and Jewish traditions of depending on Priests (Catholics) or Rabbis (Jews) to interpret scripture, because wider Christianity has such a standard, too. It's just not formally recognized among the Protestant rank-and-file.<br /><br />Some time ago, you quoted from a CNN story called <a href="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/05/thats-not-in-the-bible/" rel="nofollow">Actually, that's not in the Bible</a>. Here's my favorite quote from that article (it's at the very end of the story):<br /><br /><i>“It is a great Protestant tradition for anyone - milkmaid, cobbler, or innkeeper - to be able to pick up the Bible and read for herself. No need for a highly trained scholar or cleric to walk a lay person through the text,” says Craig Hazen, director of the Christian Apologetics program at Biola University in Southern California.<br /><br />But often the milkmaid, the cobbler - and the NFL coach - start creating biblical passages without the guidance of biblical experts, he says.<br /><br />“You can see this manifest today in living room Bible studies across North America where lovely Christian people, with no training whatsoever, drink decaf, eat brownies and ask each other, ‘What does this text mean to you?’’’ Hazen says.<br /><br />“Not only do they get the interpretation wrong, but very often end up quoting verses that really aren’t there.”</i><br /><br />When Hazen says <i>"Not only do they get the interpretation wrong"</i> he implies that it's possible for an individual to misinterpret the Bible, and based on what else he says, it seems like interpreting the Bible based on what "feels right" isn't an acceptable standard.<br /><br />Certainly food for thought. Should individuals go around "shooting from the hip" so to speak, in trying to figure out what God really meant when He said "such-and-thus"?Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-74566685766549146212011-09-01T16:08:04.059-05:002011-09-01T16:08:04.059-05:00Gene,
You describe our position as one that looks...Gene,<br /><br />You describe our position as one that looks down on Jewish tradition.<br /><br />Our position is an acknowledment, one that should be plain to every disciple of Yeshua, that human beings are fallible and their judgments, no matter how wise and learned, must not be set on the same level as God's commandments.<br /><br />That need not imply wholesale rejection of Jewish tradition.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-79546806352099430202011-09-01T16:00:28.431-05:002011-09-01T16:00:28.431-05:00"That's where we differ, Gene, I don'..."That's where we differ, Gene, I don't think it's right for humans to put our interpretations, no matter how wise, on the same level as God's commands. "<br /><br />Judah, but this is precisely what people who reject Judaim's halachic interpretations do themselves, except I think what they do, on closer inspection, is far more egregious and arrogant and the long-term repercussions of their beliefs for their communities are far worse. That is, instead of relying on established standards they rely on their own understanding (Proverbs 3:5) and observe their own private interpretation of Torah as if those were Torah themselves. This is why I think it's so deeply hypocritical for those folks to look down on Jewish communal interpretation of Torah as set by Jewish sages that has served and preserved the Jewish people for thousands of years.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66055006798611050022011-09-01T14:33:46.571-05:002011-09-01T14:33:46.571-05:00You are right that both Jews and Christians bless ...You are right that both Jews and Christians bless God for something God didn't necessarily do. <br /><br />The problem isn't in the thanking God, of course. The problem is in Judaism's interpretations being recognized as commandments by themselves. That's where we differ, Gene, I don't think it's right for humans to put our interpretations, no matter how wise, on the same level as God's commands. This goes against the grain of your view that official Jewish interpretation of commandments are commandments that are binding on Jews.<br /><br />Evangelicals don't do this for their devotion to sola scriptura. The Roman Catholic Church, on the other hand, does do this, claiming they, too, have authority alone to interpret Scripture such that it's binding on the Jesus' disciples. In many ways, this parallels Judaism.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-49635753965720306522011-09-01T13:20:43.089-05:002011-09-01T13:20:43.089-05:00"If people wish to pray prayers that thank Go..."If people wish to pray prayers that thank God for commanding something he didn't explicitly command, well, that's their judgment call, certainly we have bigger issues to deal with. :-)"<br /><br />For sure! Most Christians (especially Evangelicals, in my experience) thank G-d for doing this or that for them, or orchestrating this or that event (church meeting, finding a sweet parking space at the mall, etc.) assuming it must have been been G-d behind that. Is it such a great difference between attributing certain actions directly to G-d vs attributing certain interpretations of commandments (really, a "how-to" on how to perform them) He actually handed down on Him as well? I don't think so.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-320581087607235612011-09-01T11:12:01.741-05:002011-09-01T11:12:01.741-05:00Ok, then, it's just like I said. Official inte...Ok, then, it's just like I said. Official interpretations from Judaism have become commandments.<br /><br />It's not right for humans to claim God said something he didn't actually say. You might say, "God said X in the Torah, and so we do Y." That would be acceptable. <br /><br />If these traditions-turned-commandments were coming from the Sanhedrin, then your argument would hold more weight. However, even then, it would be dangerous to put words in God's mouth, considering the Sanhedrin was fallible.<br /><br />Prayers like those ought to be, at the very least,<br /><br /><i>"Blessed are you, L-rd our G-d, who has commanded us to [keep the Sabbath holy], and for this we [kindle the sabbath lights]."</i><br /><br />That would be acceptable.<br /><br />In any case, I have my convictions, you have yours. If people wish to pray prayers that thank God for commanding something he didn't explicitly command, well, that's their judgment call, certainly we have bigger issues to deal with. :-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70522615272509899112011-09-01T10:46:17.434-05:002011-09-01T10:46:17.434-05:00"I question why many of the customs involve p..."I question why many of the customs involve prayers that suggest they're commandments:<br /><br />"Blessed are you, L-rd our G-d, who has commanded us to [do something we're not actually commanded to do].""<br /><br />No, these are <i>official</i> Jewish interpretation of commandments, not customs, therefore they ARE commandments that are binding on the Jewish people.<br /><br />Example: Deuteronomy 5:12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the L-RD your G-d commanded you."<br /><br />What does keeping Sabbath holy/sanctified mean and how can exactly G-d has commanded it be kept holy? Jews know what that means through official Jewish interpretation of that commandment.<br /><br />So, instead of the version you proposed, I propose this instead:<br /><br />"Blessed are you, L-rd our G-d, who has commanded us to [keep something holy and special and by this special reverent act - fill in the blank - this is how we Jews do it]."Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-72268521285025278402011-09-01T10:30:24.061-05:002011-09-01T10:30:24.061-05:00You're right. They are customs, not commandmen...You're right. They are customs, not commandments.<br /><br />I question why many of the customs involve prayers that suggest they're commandments:<br /><br /><i>"Blessed are you, L-rd our G-d, who has commanded us to [do something we're not actually commanded to do]."</i>Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.com