tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post7169910509800606343..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Be Honest About Your Theology: Disclose Your AssumptionsJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-78589576070518264702011-10-04T23:18:32.600-05:002011-10-04T23:18:32.600-05:00The simple explanation of "declaring all food...The simple explanation of "declaring all foods clean" requires the advanced knowledge (or in-depth study) of what actually constitutes food.<br /><br />Few Christians would consider dogs and cats food, yet when it comes to Torah observance, they tend to get all prickly over trying to take away their hogs and sea crabs.<br /><br />Paraphrasing Paul, he warned about getting stuck in a rut when he spoke of believers trying to pass off milk as meat, (consider in this instance the establishing the testimony of at least two witnesses -- where's the beef of witness #@?).<br /><br />In other words, if it ain't kosher, it ain't food.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-38188397623494957312011-10-03T09:21:45.759-05:002011-10-03T09:21:45.759-05:00OK. The break is over. This blog post and conversa...OK. The break is over. This blog post and conversation inspired a blog post of my own (what a surprise) and in fact, a series of them. There's the first one: <a href="http://mymorningmeditations.com/2011/10/03/journey-of-the-ger-toshav-first-step/" rel="nofollow">Journey of the Ger Toshav: First Step</a>.Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-23578458180609545262011-09-28T12:50:20.911-05:002011-09-28T12:50:20.911-05:00I'm out sick for 2 days, and I come back to a ...I'm out sick for 2 days, and I come back to a big debate thread!<br /><br />Jeez, guys, take a break - it's the holy days. :-) Be blessed, all of ya. :-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-3730828004145205832011-09-28T11:33:03.471-05:002011-09-28T11:33:03.471-05:00James,
Where Scriptures makes distinction between...James,<br /><br />Where Scriptures makes distinction between men and women, priests, etc. There is no mentions whatsoever for Jew a nd Gentile distinctions as far as keeping Torah is concerned. Even your beloved "scholars at FFOZ only come up with one, only one verse where they have to twist it in order to sustain their agenda, and you drink the kool-aid....<br /><br />Shana Tova to all.Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89095445946553227922011-09-28T09:47:47.234-05:002011-09-28T09:47:47.234-05:00You misunderstand the Mosaic covenant. Anyone who ...<i>You misunderstand the Mosaic covenant. Anyone who professed a faith in the Elohim of Yisrael and was willing to do the works of Torah was accepted as a native born son. And they were to be treated the same as any other descendant of Jacob.</i><br /><br />True, if they converted to Judaism. That's why the "one law for the Israelite and the stranger" argument doesn't work to explain Gentile Messianic Torah observance today. All of the Gentile Gerim eventually assimilated into Israel. They didn't retain their non-Jewish identities generation after generation. They became Jews.<br /><br />Salvation is by faith, not by Torah. Abraham established this and Paul supported it. Jews obeying their Torah obligations doesn't make them any more saved then Christians (including Gentile Messianics) and it doesn't make them any more loved by God. We have that in the letters of Paul ("neither Jew nor Greek"), but it doesn't make Jews and Gentiles identical units under the Messianic covenant either. Gentiles remain Gentiles and Jews remain Jews. "Neither male nor female" doesn't mean male and female physical/biological/structural differences are obliterated, but it does mean the males and females are equally loved by God. Yet men and women are still different and maintain different roles and functions (guys, never try to have babies just because you're equal to your wives under Messiah).<br /><br />Think of it like this (I've said this before). All Americans have equal rights in our nation under the Constitution, but there are some citizens who have greater responsibilites because of their roles. Police officers, firefighters, and soldiers have greater responsibilities under certain circumstances, even when off duty, because of the roles they fulfill and the oaths they swore when they first took on those roles. The rest of us aren't legally obligated to stop a robbery, put out our neighbor's garage fire, or to defend the shores of our nation (although we can do so voluntarily). Jews have greater responsibilities with penalties attached if they fail to fulfill them, than the rest of us. However, as a matter of personal conviction, the rest of us can choose to take on board some of the same "tasks". We just don't *have* to.<br /><br />Since tonight is Erev Rosh Hashanah, I'd like to end my participation in this dialogue on a high note. Won't be blogging/commenting again from sundown today until Saturday night/Sunday morning.<br /><br />L’shanah tovah tikatev v’taihatem. May you be inscribed and sealed for a good year.Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-29867544498281000232011-09-28T07:57:23.091-05:002011-09-28T07:57:23.091-05:00"The idea that Jews are somehow obligated bey..."The idea that Jews are somehow obligated beyond anyone else on the planet is another form of supersessionism."<br /><br />Huh? Efrayim , can you clarify who exactly Jews are superseding in this novel form of "supersessionism"?<br /><br />su·per·sede (verb) - Take the place of a person or thing previously in authority or use; supplant.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-64982282222553786922011-09-28T01:46:37.208-05:002011-09-28T01:46:37.208-05:00Well James that is exactly the problem. The idea t...Well James that is exactly the problem. The idea that Jews are somehow obligated beyond anyone else on the planet is another form of supersessionism. Because of a physical birth that is supposed to contain an unbroken line back to Jacob there is the assumption that there are not only additional requirements, but also additional blessings due to lineage. <br /><br />Based on the clear teachings of Messiah Yeshua and His emissaries, how can that be?<br /><br />Grace does not replace Torah, it supports Torah. But a Torah of faith and righteousness, not of works.<br /><br />The new covenant did not replace the previous covenants. It has brought them to their fulness.<br /><br />Isaac was a child of promise. What did he do to deserve that? Nothing.<br /><br />Look at both Galatians and Romans chapter 9. <br /><br />You misunderstand the Mosaic covenant. Anyone who professed a faith in the Elohim of Yisrael and was willing to do the works of Torah was accepted as a native born son. And they were to be treated the same as any other descendant of Jacob. <br /><br />If those who say they are Jews believe that they are obligated and required to observe more of Torah than those of the nations who come to Messiah, then they are wrong.<br /><br />Yes it might make someone feel more special than someone else who is not part of the exclusive club that is based on a physical birth or conversion to a set of strict religious rules, but all of that has nothing to do with the covenant that was cut by Messiah Yeshua.<br /><br />If physical birth and works of Torah would bring about salvation, than what did Messiah die for? And if those works could only be performed by those who, through no effort of their own, were born into a Jewish culture, and those same works were prohibited to all others, again, why did Messiah die?<br /><br />If my responsibilities are different than those who say they are Jews, then what hope do I have since I am required to walk in the same love and righteousness as anyone else?<br /><br />Are you saying that my love should be different because my walk is supposed to be different than those who say they are Jews? I am talking about love toward Messiah. He defined what that looks like for all. And you say it is not the same?<br /><br />Neither I nor anyone else on the planet is justified by performing the works of Torah. Whether that is circumcision or the food we eat, it doesn't matter. And isn't that what we are talking about?Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89609334153813087832011-09-27T19:53:34.248-05:002011-09-27T19:53:34.248-05:00I probably did. It sounded as if you said all of t...I probably did. It sounded as if you said all of the Messiah's work had been completed and there was nothing left to be done in the world or in our hearts. He certainly has to come again and finish what was started.<br /><br />I'm confused on a specific point, Efrayim. You make it sound like the Messianic covenant has wholly replaced the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants:<br /><br /><i>No, I do not believe that Jews are any more obligated to circumcision than anyone else when it comes to the covenant enacted by Messiah Yeshua.</i><br /><br />I may be reading you wrong, but it seems as if you are saying that the Jews, thanks to the Messiah, are no longer obligated to perform a Bris on eight-day old baby boys. I don't see where the Messiah "undid" this, or any other part of the covenants given to the Children of Israel.<br /><br />Admittedly, the Epistles are difficult to understand and can even be used to support supersessionism (grace replacing Torah; the church replacing the Jews), but I think there are different ways to look at these teachings.<br /><br />I had the opportunity to read and review Lancaster's (FFOZ's) <a href="http://ffoz.org/resources/galatians/" rel="nofollow">Galatians</a> some months back, and it really goes a long way in illustrating how Jewish and Gentile disciples of the Messiah can be equal in God's love and compassion, but with the Jews bearing a greater responsibility to God relative to the Torah. Gentiles couldn't enter into a covenant relationship with God under the Mosaic covenant, but the Messianic covenant allows everyone who is willing to come under His grace and love. It does not, however, turn Gentiles into Jews.<br /><br />I know we'll go round and round this argument until the Messiah returns and straightens us out, but one of my "assumptions" (after a long, hard year of examining my assumptions), is that Gentiles have a different (though in some cases overlapping) responsibility to God than the Jews.Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-31530242610561979212011-09-27T16:17:45.926-05:002011-09-27T16:17:45.926-05:00Sorry James but you've missed my point it seem...Sorry James but you've missed my point it seems.<br /><br />The covenant cut by Messiah Yeshua is complete and cannot be added to or taken from. "It is done", to quote someone famous.<br /><br />Now the promises made to all believers in Messiah have obviously not been fulfilled as yet. And we are waiting for the clock to wind down until they are all fulfilled.<br /><br />Promises are contained within the covenant. The promises do not comprise the entirety of the covenant.<br /><br />Gene I have told you and others many times that I do not believe what you say I believe. Please respect the fact that I just might be telling the truth about what it is I do believe.<br /><br />thank youRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87987559731809719872011-09-27T13:31:10.705-05:002011-09-27T13:31:10.705-05:00"If the prophet was speaking of Israel, then ..."If the prophet was speaking of Israel, then that hasn't happened yet."<br /><br />James, since one of the tenets of Efrayim's faith is that the non-Jewish believers are in fact long-lost flesh-and-blood Israelites, and since so many Christians/Gentiles have come to faith vs the relatively tiny number of Jews who did (and the small number of Jews in general), it's enough for Efrayim to claim that "Israel" overall has received and accepted the covenant.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-29661194639125067092011-09-27T11:11:26.609-05:002011-09-27T11:11:26.609-05:00I'm probably going to regret this, but...
Eve...I'm probably going to regret this, but...<br /><br /><i>Everyone will sit under their own vine and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken.<br /><br />All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.</i> -<b>Micah4:4-5</b><br /><br />If the prophet was speaking of Israel, then that hasn't happened yet. If he is speaking of the Messianic age when both Jews and the Gentiles who have attached themselves to the God of Israel through the Messiah will be at peace, then that hasn't happened yet either.<br /><br />Either way, all the promises of the covenant of Messiah haven't been completed yet. The finger of God is still writing His Word on our hearts. If He were done, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22986861284835334362011-09-27T09:12:05.898-05:002011-09-27T09:12:05.898-05:00No, I do not believe that Jews are any more obliga...No, I do not believe that Jews are any more obligated to circumcision than anyone else when it comes to the covenant enacted by Messiah Yeshua.<br /><br />If someone has the assumption that due to physical birth one person is justified differently by Messiah than another, then I would have to say that assumption is incorrect according to scripture.<br /><br />Read Romans chapter 9. If after reading said chapter you can still work under the assumption I have previously stated, then you are at the very least unwilling to acknowledge what the emissary Sha'ul so clearly taught.<br /><br />"In the process of making..."? Really Gene. When do you think He might be done? Is He having trouble getting it put in place? Whatever covenant you are referring to, I hope for your sake He finished soon.<br /><br />The covenant we have joined through faith in Messiah Yeshua, on the other hand, is quite complete and does not need any additional requirements beyond those already detailed by Yeshua.<br /><br />Can you see the difference?Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-21496759046167298952011-09-27T08:27:02.178-05:002011-09-27T08:27:02.178-05:00You beat me to the punch Gene... :)You beat me to the punch Gene... :)zayinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18081115060070096492011-09-27T08:25:38.204-05:002011-09-27T08:25:38.204-05:00Efrayim--
Do you believe circumcision is required...Efrayim--<br /><br />Do you believe circumcision is required for all Gentiles?<br /><br />If no, do you believe circumcision is still required for all Jews (halachically speaking)?<br /><br />Do you believe gentiles are required to observe Kashrut?<br /><br />If no, do you believe Jews are still required to observe Kashrut?<br /><br />Just curious...zayinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-12748696026199214122011-09-27T08:20:55.219-05:002011-09-27T08:20:55.219-05:00"I guess I'll have to go back re-read tha..."I guess I'll have to go back re-read that part in Yirmeyahu where I could have sworn YHVH had promised only ONE new covenant."<br /><br />Efrayim, you must be late to the conversation. The Mosaic Covenant G-d has made with Israel is not exactly "New", nor is it incumbent upon Gentiles to observe it. In that regard, Robert is defiantly correct when he wrote "They are not under the same covenant as Am Yisrael."<br /><br />The New Covenant that G-d is in the process of making with Israel and in which by G-d grace Gentiles are allowed to partake not only does not obligate Gentiles to live as Jews, it opposes in strongest condemning terms all those who would make such a requirement on Gentiles who are drawn by G-d to join His family.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-24194235903299129112011-09-26T22:30:29.053-05:002011-09-26T22:30:29.053-05:00Not under the same covenant as Am Yisrael? (head s...Not under the same covenant as Am Yisrael? (head scratch)<br /><br />I guess I'll have to go back re-read that part in Yirmeyahu where I could have sworn YHVH had promised only ONE new covenant.<br /><br />If there is another covenant in play I haven't yet found it in my version of the scriptures.<br /><br />Anyone else have two covenants detailed in their scriptures?<br /><br />And if someone does, is there some kind of different a Messiah for that one too?<br /><br />But I guess I'm just assuming that is what you meant.Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-86131202499171267072011-09-26T21:54:30.413-05:002011-09-26T21:54:30.413-05:00With reference to your assumptions, Judah, I'm...With reference to your assumptions, Judah, I'm curious.<br /><br />Under your interpretation of the NT, should both Jews and Gentiles be observing Torah? I only ask because it seems to fly in the face of Paul's prohibition on forcing Gentiles to become Jews in order to attain salvation.<br /><br />As far as my own assumptions, I assume it is perfectly legitimate for Jewish believers to retain Torah observance. Jesus himself observed the commandments. However, I would disagree (if indeed that is your assumption) that Gentiles should be laying tefillin, etc. They are not under the same covenant as Am Yisrael.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11903525298588963429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1927991840953144942011-09-26T15:59:59.769-05:002011-09-26T15:59:59.769-05:00Gene,
Not at all. MISGUIDED is more of a word th...Gene,<br /><br />Not at all. MISGUIDED is more of a word that come to mind.....Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-75830742237153830462011-09-26T15:54:17.183-05:002011-09-26T15:54:17.183-05:00""mature MJ" became "bilateral...""mature MJ" became "bilateral Ecclesiology." I don't trust these guys...."<br /><br />Dan, are you suggesting that R. Stuart Dauermann, Dr. Schiffman and other Messianic Jewish leaders who are part of Hashevenu or MJTI are somehow deceptive, dishonest people?Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22634632333217883242011-09-26T15:42:46.660-05:002011-09-26T15:42:46.660-05:00Gene,
You know exactly what I am talking about. ...Gene,<br /><br />You know exactly what I am talking about. "mature MJ" became "bilateral Ecclesiology."<br /><br />I don't trust these guys....Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-7267471609964061462011-09-26T15:24:17.854-05:002011-09-26T15:24:17.854-05:00"gene, you can spin it anyway you want, but I..."gene, you can spin it anyway you want, but I smell the smoke....."<br /><br />Dan, you must be inhaling it too! <br /><br />"!5 years ago when I first read Hashivenu term "mature Messianic Judaism" I smelled the smoke and did not yet see the fire. Now we all see the fire."<br /><br />When you say "we all", you must mean you and some of your online buddies. What are you talking about?Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-56857628884381948092011-09-26T15:18:35.849-05:002011-09-26T15:18:35.849-05:00Dan,
If you're suggesting Rabbi Dauermann is ...Dan,<br /><br />If you're suggesting Rabbi Dauermann is linked to this NAR movement, do you have some proof towards that?<br /><br />Dauermann suggesting Jews be insider prophets rather than outsider missionaries is not compelling.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-41704653758911142932011-09-26T15:15:44.791-05:002011-09-26T15:15:44.791-05:00"The New Apostolic Reformation is a movement ..."The New Apostolic Reformation is a movement in Protestant Christianity largely associated with the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. The basic thesis asserts that God is restoring the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of Prophet and Apostle."<br /><br />Under NEW APOSTOLIC REFORMATION---Wikipedia.<br /><br />!5 years ago when I first read Hashivenu term "mature Messianic Judaism" I smelled the smoke and did not yet see the fire. Now we all see the fire.<br /><br />gene, you can spin it anyway you want, but I smell the smoke.....Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-9019299293313441392011-09-26T15:03:43.505-05:002011-09-26T15:03:43.505-05:00"Did Stuart write on his blog that we all cha..."Did Stuart write on his blog that we all change from Missionaries to prophets?"<br /><br />Dan, it was quite clear to me even when I first read his words that "prophets" (not predictors of the future but messengers) in this context were simply those Jews who carry the Word of G-d to their OWN people (in contrast to missionaries who are outsiders). He was referring to ALL of us who are Jewish believers, not some special caste of wannabe "prophets" and "apostles" of the "New Apostolic Reformation", with which, at least as far as I know, Dauermann (who has spoken out against charismatic excesses on his blog) has nothing to do with.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18632821907050151152011-09-26T14:51:24.569-05:002011-09-26T14:51:24.569-05:00The post Dan is referring to is Post-Missionary Ou...The post Dan is referring to is <a href="http://www.messianicjudaism.me/agenda/2011/08/15/post-missionary-outreach-to-the-jewish-people/" rel="nofollow">Post-Missionary Outreach to the Jewish People</a>, where Rabbi Dauermann writes,<br /><br /><i>"We Jews who believe in Yeshua should see ourselves as prophets to our people, not missionaries...<br />Missionaries are outsiders coming in: prophets are insiders speaking out."</i><br /><br />It's unclear to me how this supposedly links Rabbi Dauermann to the "New Apostolic Reformation", which I'm unfamiliar with in the first place.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.com