tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post5606079083894646547..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: The Surprise Ending of the Frum Gentile StoryJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81465008604837304692010-09-07T10:41:45.678-05:002010-09-07T10:41:45.678-05:00Anonymous, there's no way for me to adequately...Anonymous, there's no way for me to adequately respond to your comments in a short reply, so I created my own blog post to address the issue. It's called <a href="http://searchingforthelightonthepath.blogspot.com/2010/09/blackball.html" rel="nofollow">Blackball?</a>. Feel free to let me know what you think.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-5123599809054179122010-09-06T13:12:55.345-05:002010-09-06T13:12:55.345-05:00I perceive Tandi has done what I'm considering...I perceive Tandi has done what I'm considering, chucking MJ in general to seek the peace of one's own, new Sabbath fellowship. I highly suspect she will not align with any national-level organizations going forward. I've heard in the Denver area a non-Jewish MJ congregational leader was told he should resign because he was not Jewish. I've heard in the Atlanta area any MJ congregation not run by a Jew is blackballed by their area MJ association. I think it is time to bring these and similar actions out into the light and clean house. I believe this blog in its small way is has brought one such injustice out into the open. Sorry Gene! If an organization is not showing the love of Messiah Yeshua then it is time for such organizations to repent and change their ways or close as people of the light seek the light.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-37063028325274818662010-09-06T11:35:52.188-05:002010-09-06T11:35:52.188-05:00"While we may not get to a point of mutual th...<i>"While we may not get to a point of mutual theological agreement, I hope we can reach a point of at least acknowledging that we all are one flock of one shepherd and that we will all learn to hear and obey his voice."</i><br /><br />I agree. However, when we have leaders excluding some of our brothers over theological differences, it becomes crucial to continue this debate until it is resolved. If they practiced inclusion and love we could take our time in working out our issues.David Messerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825478896935570268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-15812433051679769042010-09-06T09:50:09.459-05:002010-09-06T09:50:09.459-05:00Getting into endless debates over dress-codes is p...<i>Getting into endless debates over dress-codes is premature until we of the Messianic movement come to an agreement over this Theological issue.</i><br /><br />David, my first thought here is "good luck with that". I honestly don't think there will be a consensus opinion on this matter (or many other theological matters) until the Messiah returns. We debate these topics rather endlessly in the Messianic blogosphere so right now, and given that Rosh Hashanah is only days away, the need for repentence and return to God by *everyone* is of heightened importance.<br /><br />While we may not get to a point of mutual theological agreement, I hope we can reach a point of at least acknowledging that we all are one flock of one shepherd and that we will all learn to hear and obey his voice.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-77031547167134965052010-09-06T02:27:15.001-05:002010-09-06T02:27:15.001-05:00And what else is new David?
I thought that is wha...And what else is new David?<br /><br />I thought that is what we argure for some time now?.......Dab Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-85424110303176636692010-09-05T22:57:34.728-05:002010-09-05T22:57:34.728-05:00A bigger issue that is raised by this posting than...A bigger issue that is raised by this posting than who lied and who slandered who is the question of what relationship the non-Jew has with the Torah.<br /><br />There is one school of thought that the Torah is given only to the Jews and only they should (or need to) follow It.<br /><br />This idea is held (apparently) by Derek Lehman and his followers and, somewhat ironically, by the historical Church.<br /><br />The other School of thought is that there is one Israel - all who are in Messiah, and the Torah is given to all Believers.<br /><br />Getting into endless debates over dress-codes is premature until we of the Messianic movement come to an agreement over this Theological issue.David Messerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825478896935570268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-56086771087740732222010-09-05T11:53:25.204-05:002010-09-05T11:53:25.204-05:00Messiah's Way and Tandi, to be fair, there is ...Messiah's Way and Tandi, to be fair, there is a high degree of variability in Messianic/One Law/Hebraic congregations and their members. Even the best among us is capable of sin, so it's helpful not to put anyone or any individual congregation on a pedestal. They'll just fall off at some point.<br /><br />Try not to let the comments here paint all of the "Messianic movement" with a broad brush. There are many good and sincere people who, within the Hebraic worship context, are trying to honor God and walk the path that Yeshua has set before them. Needless to say, we all stumble sometimes, which is why, if we're going to make a mistake, we should err on the side of mercy and grace rather than judgment and rejection. If God treated us like we treat each other, no one would survive. When Yeshua returns, will he find faith?<br /><br />In any congregation, be it Messianic, a Christian church, or whatever, the leadership sets the tone and direction. Tandi, if you're interested in visiting a Messianic congregation, don't be afraid. You might want to call ahead and talk to someone to find out what to expect, though. Then visit and see how you are treated. If the love of the Messiah is there, you will be welcomed as the person you are, and not be expected to morph into something else just to please the group.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-86787686005928898592010-09-05T07:53:56.437-05:002010-09-05T07:53:56.437-05:00Judah said:
>>The ongoing attempts to exclu...Judah said:<br /><br />>>The ongoing attempts to exclude Messianics outside of the bilateral ecclesiology niche makes me wonder. That Derek wants to redefine “Messianic” to exclude folks like this man worries me – maybe in his zeal to exclude the “unwanted” Messianic types, Derek exaggerated the facts? I don’t know how else to explain the discrepancy between this man’s earnest story and Derek’s story-with-a-theology-zinger blog post.<<<br /><br />Regardless of the unavoidable drama, this is a very important issue that needs to be dealt with. How many of us are reluctant to visit a messianic fellowship or synagogue these days because of discriminatory attitudes. If someone's appearance or doctrine is not to the complete satisfaction of the rabbi or congregational leader, will he be confronted, mocked, written about on a blog with sarcasm and exaggeration? Makes me fearful to bring a group from my new Sabbath fellowship to experience an established Messianic synagogue service sometime. I think of the passage in James chapter 2 about partiality and "respect of persons." The equivalent in our day seems to be (paraphrase)... <br /><br />"If there come unto your synagogue a Jewish man with tzit tzit and kippah and there come a Gentile man with tzit tzit and no kippah and you say to the Jewish man, "Sit thou here in an honored position" and to the Gentile man, "Go away, we don't want your kind" are ye not then partial in yourselves and are become judges of evil thoughts?....If ye fulfil the royal law according to the Scripture, "THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors......Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-15511039563751450702010-09-03T23:48:33.124-05:002010-09-03T23:48:33.124-05:00A couple of weeks ago I reconnected with a former ...A couple of weeks ago I reconnected with a former pastor and his wife out on the West Coast. I had not spoken with them in 15 years and when I told them I had been in messianic congregations for the last ten years, they were appalled. <br /><br />As I spoke about my desire to show my love for God through following his commands, they told me that they felt like I had turned my back on the Spirit. No matter how much I tried, I could not convince them that you can be in the messianic community and still walk in the Spirit. I told them they were wrong.<br /><br />After reading these posts, I am asking myself if it is still early enough on the West Coast to call them and apologize.Messiah's Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08980847043588208916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-24183235525543008792010-09-03T06:23:46.539-05:002010-09-03T06:23:46.539-05:00To Judah:
You wrote: "Reminder: the point of...To Judah:<br /><br />You wrote: "Reminder: the point of this post is not to bash Derek Leman, but to give the other side of the story, which is inconsistent with Derek's version.<br /><br />I'd rather see Derek and anonymous reconciled, with whomever needs to repent do so, and then we could move on."<br /><br />Thank you for making your intentions clear. I was not getting that impression from the tone of the posting. It is amazing what can get lost without hearing the human voice.<br /><br />Thank you for letting me share here Judah, I am ready to move on nowBenjamin Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10750930640815820995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-61765294912820540892010-09-03T06:21:35.030-05:002010-09-03T06:21:35.030-05:00To Dan:
You wrote:"Two things,
1) I suggest...To Dan:<br /><br />You wrote:"Two things,<br /><br />1) I suggest that all of you holier than thou guys who act like Derek's messengers, first, take the 2x4 from between your eyes.<br />The truth is the truth, and how do you expect to solve any problems or differences between us when we refuse to lay all the chips on the table. Stop invoking God's name or Lashon Hara when you get offended, look in your own closets first. Derek was asked many times to come and defend himself, if instead he elected to send other people to defend him, then let him and you holy guys live with the consequences.<br /><br />2) This is Judah's blog and he is entitled to write whatever he wants . Anyone who does not like it I have a solution for you---DON"T COME HERE. Stay in your safety zone with you cronys.<br /><br />Bottom line---Stop playing these holier than thou silly games...."<br /><br />First of all, and let me make this clear under no uncertain terms...I am not Rabbi Leman's messenger. I speak for myself ONLY. <br /><br />Nor do I speak for God, but I hope to speak for what I believe in (just like you). Once one opens the door to challenge someone's character, everyone gets exposed or misrepresented (likely both). We are, in fact, allowed to challenge one another (I agree with you). Requesting that we all relate out of brotherly love is not "holier than thou." It is simply a friendly reminder. I'm sorry if you do not feel you need that reminder. I have had plenty of times I needed that reminder. I am thankful for those individuals who reminded me. I have simply paid that gift forward. <br /><br />If you stand on a conviction that telling people who are sharing an opinion that they are "holier than thou," saying they are engaging in "silly games," telling them to not "COME HERE," and go back with their "crony's" is appropriate, that's you're right. I would just ask that you consider whether or not I have demonstrated hypocrisy. <br /><br />By the way, there are enough 2x4's for ALL of us here...Benjamin Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10750930640815820995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-49758939251547748082010-09-02T21:13:41.270-05:002010-09-02T21:13:41.270-05:00Bringing the actual parties together at the same t...Bringing the actual parties together at the same table, so to speak, is a fabulous idea (not that it'll be easy). It's an opportunity for everyone to be able to take the moral high road and frankly, to show the rest of the world how the body of believers is supposed to resolve conflicts amongst ourselves.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-74366098769290599122010-09-02T17:55:06.088-05:002010-09-02T17:55:06.088-05:00Reminder: the point of this post is not to bash De...Reminder: the point of this post is not to bash Derek Leman, but to give the other side of the story, which is inconsistent with Derek's version.<br /><br />I'd rather see Derek and anonymous reconciled, with whomever needs to repent do so, and then we could move on.<br /><br />FWIW, 2 different people, one from Derek's side of things, and another from anonymous' side of things, have suggested a phone call or conference. Maybe that's an opportunity for repentance/reconciliation. We'll see what happens.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-17367217724779766422010-09-02T17:33:04.770-05:002010-09-02T17:33:04.770-05:00It's a backpack....LOL! I love it.
The irony...It's a backpack....LOL! I love it.<br /><br />The irony here is that Derek himself is not welcomed in Dauermanns congregation, because with all his bogus conversion he is still a Gentile, and Dauermann does not like Gentiles in his congregation.Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-36729416140126980222010-09-02T17:25:56.285-05:002010-09-02T17:25:56.285-05:00... and Gene pulls the LaShon Hara card!
From h...... and Gene pulls the LaShon Hara card! <br /><br />From http://www.jewishideas.org/blog/it-lashon-hara-make-public-aware-terrible-sins:<br /><br />"It is not "Lashon Hara" to call the public's attention to injustice and criminal behavior. To cover up such behavior is the sin. To look the other way while Jewish children are being humiliated and segregated is not virtuous, but is a reflection of a warped idea of Torah and Torah values."<br /><br />From http://jsafe.org/pdfs/Lashon%20Hara%20and%20Abuse.pdf:<br /><br />"There are times when a person is obligated to speak out, even when he is the sole informant and even though the information is disparaging. Specifically, if a person’s intent in sharing the negative information is for a to’elet, a positive, constructive, and beneficial purpose, the prohibition against lashon hara does not apply."<br /><br />Gene: The fact that Derek is referring to an unnamed person is no excuse. The victim of the injustice is a victim nonetheless! Even MR. Leman has attempted to use the doctrine of LaShon Hara to silence someone and it is available for all to see. Do you want to go there? I'm sorry Gene, your attempt to use the emergency parachute has failed... it's a backpack! 8-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1026791929590084702010-09-02T15:13:53.607-05:002010-09-02T15:13:53.607-05:00It is good and right to have both sides of the sto...It is good and right to have both sides of the story public, no matter how many irrelevant commentators think otherwise. :-)<br /><br />Had Derek kept this a private matter in his congregation, there would be no need to voice the other side of the story. But because he publicly shamed these men and their beliefs, we must hear the other side of the story, even if it is painful to do so.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-20980667637053553512010-09-02T14:56:03.359-05:002010-09-02T14:56:03.359-05:00"I'm glad to have been of service to Mess..."I'm glad to have been of service to Messiah in bringing this issue to light, even though it reflects negatively on one of our leaders."<br /><br />Still defiant and unrepentant. This remind me of a verse in NT that says that one day there will be those who will kill, and yet think they are doing a service to G-d?<br /><br />OK, enough drama:) I hope that you will go to Derek directly and resolve this matter one-on-one instead of public arena.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-42352283436461107632010-09-02T14:21:08.456-05:002010-09-02T14:21:08.456-05:00Hi Gene,
My post brings to light evidence that wa...Hi Gene,<br /><br />My post brings to light evidence that was not revealed when Derek posted his <i>story-with-a-theological-zinger</i>.<br /><br />I'm glad to have been of service to Messiah in bringing this issue to light, even though it reflects negatively on one of our leaders.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-67404814068939620982010-09-02T13:56:52.268-05:002010-09-02T13:56:52.268-05:00"On a public & influential forum, Derek s..."On a public & influential forum, Derek slanders God-fearing One Law people on his blog as "anti-Jewish" and "erasers of God's covenant" who were pretend Jews dressed frum. He essentially boots them out his congregation."<br /><br />Judah, Derek mentioned none of their names, nothing to identify them to the public. I don't know who these folks are, what they look like, how old are they, and where do they live. It would be no different than say a doctor described a medical condition/history of a patient of his, without revealing that patient's name - no breach of trust has occurred, no law has been broken.<br /><br />However, to accuse a well-known leader (and a person many people I am sure look up to) of lying - repeatedly - and especially a person who you identify with as a fellow "messianic" AND a friend - this is where you have crossed the line into the proverbial Lashon Hara territory, IMO.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-82159458348387091222010-09-02T13:40:51.159-05:002010-09-02T13:40:51.159-05:00Side note:
The drama in this thread is so thick ...Side note: <br /><br />The drama in this thread is so thick and ridiculous, we could easily topple <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_our_Lives" rel="nofollow">Days of Our Lives</a> without much effort.<br /><br />I volunteer to be the sexy delivery boy.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-24372539197697849292010-09-02T13:24:53.058-05:002010-09-02T13:24:53.058-05:00Hey guys,
1. On a public & influential forum,...Hey guys,<br /><br />1. On a public & influential forum, Derek slanders God-fearing One Law people on his blog as "anti-Jewish" and "erasers of God's covenant" who were pretend Jews dressed frum. He essentially boots them out his congregation.<br /><br />2. I happen to meet one of the guys Derek booted. Turns out, they weren't dressed frum, weren't anti-Jewish, and weren't erasers of God's covenants. (Whaddya know!)<br /><br />3. Feeling a duty as a disciple of the Master, I set the record straight on this very blog, tiny and irrelevant as it is. :-)<br /><br />4. Messianics who theologically align with Derek, unconcerned with his behavior, engage in virtual gnashing of teeth, pseudo-wailing and feigned outrage at me, the messenger.<br /><br />Wail all you want, fine blog readers, <b>the record has been set straight</b>; both sides of the story are now visible on the internet.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62865233337563493772010-09-02T11:44:23.715-05:002010-09-02T11:44:23.715-05:00Two things,
1) I suggest that all of you holier t...Two things,<br /><br />1) I suggest that all of you holier than thou guys who act like Derek's messengers, first, take the 2x4 from between your eyes.<br />The truth is the truth, and how do you expect to solve any problems or differences between us when we refuse to lay all the chips on the table. Stop invoking God's name or Lashon Hara when you get offended, look in your own closets first. Derek was asked many times to come and defend himself, if instead he elected to send other people to defend him, then let him and you holy guys live with the consequences.<br /><br />2) This is Judah's blog and he is entitled to write whatever he wants . Anyone who does not like it I have a solution for you---DON"T COME HERE. Stay in your safety zone with you cronys.<br /><br />Bottom line---Stop playing these holier than thou silly games....Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-44736938917158697742010-09-02T08:08:45.163-05:002010-09-02T08:08:45.163-05:00"We got Derek's side of this in his blog...."We got Derek's side of this in his blog. In fact, that's all we had for several months. It was an effective way of demonizing One Law folks as anti-Jewish.<br /><br />I posted this only to tell the other side, having met the guy in question and hearing his side of things."<br /><br />Sorry, Judah. I have to call bullshit here. <br /><br />Calling out one party by name while allowing the other(s) to remain anonymous is shameful. <br /><br />I've been chewing over the content of this thread since last week...biting my tongue (as I rarely actually chime in).<br /><br />James, Benjamin and Boaz literally took the words out of my mouth. <br /><br />While this post may have been well intended you laid the groundwork for this to turn into shameful character bashing. <br /><br />Tihngs like this remind me why I stopped participating in message groups back in 1997. <br /><br />The level of immaturity found in the comments here should be embarassing to most here.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06299838981543785885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-6408753524159827062010-09-01T22:27:26.365-05:002010-09-01T22:27:26.365-05:00Well I can't hardly imagine that, if at this t...Well I can't hardly imagine that, if at this time in history we are so unwilling to listen to what Messiah Yeshua has already said, that we would suddenly be all ears in the millennial kingdom.<br /><br />The lines have been drawn and the gap is widening between the "Jews" and the "Gentiles".<br /><br />That is not only sad but unnecessary. Quite a spectacle to those who are on the outside wondering if there is any validity to what has been called the "Messianic movement".<br /><br />Unteachable, easily offended, looking for advantage and practicing the fine art of always being correct.<br /><br />When do mature believers get to lead fellowships? Where are the souls who consider others to be better than themselves? Is it true that there is not a wise man among you who can judge these matters?<br /><br />There may be time left in this world to sort out these issues, but it would be unfortunate if we had to use it that way.<br /><br />To a brighter day.<br /><br />EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-29021477722041097782010-09-01T22:24:11.974-05:002010-09-01T22:24:11.974-05:00Pick the 2x4 from in between your two eyes Gene. ...Pick the 2x4 from in between your two eyes Gene. You should have gone into politics, not to Mj. You are talking like a diplomat.... We can all see through you.....Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.com