tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post4258482621296398459..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: A Warning to Those Who Follow YeshuaJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger141125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-77862415490652099022011-09-18T21:02:18.780-05:002011-09-18T21:02:18.780-05:00Admin notice: I've removed a few comments here...Admin notice: I've removed a few comments here at the request of their authors.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-69236457188716305562011-08-15T09:47:50.164-05:002011-08-15T09:47:50.164-05:00Admittedly, Messianic Judaism, Christianity, and H...Admittedly, Messianic Judaism, Christianity, and Hebrew roots movements have some issues of their own.<br /><br />Even so, the only person in the world to have kept the Torah perfectly is our <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:8&version=NIV" rel="nofollow">rabbi and Master</a>. That we have, at times, been poor disciples of his doesn't diminish his light.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-59770760094220893862011-08-14T23:28:53.649-05:002011-08-14T23:28:53.649-05:00Aaron does have a good point, though. I mean the m...Aaron does have a good point, though. I mean the more you study judaism the more you start to realize what a load of crap messianic judaism and christianity are. I'm just saying...Enter Sandmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87741327701662730712011-07-19T12:07:13.147-05:002011-07-19T12:07:13.147-05:00And btw, I changed on my own study; which started ...And btw, I changed on my own study; which started years ago on my own. A lot of my motivating was realizing, something like 5 years ago, that everyone in our community at the time wasn't as serious about Tora. Then when I actually found out what things like "Talmud", "halakha", etc, etc, etc actually are - I realized that nobody had any idea what they were talking about, and that I'd been unintentionally misled. Try explaining that to someone who was where you were but didn't make the simple step you did - and that has been the story of my life in recent years, until this past one where I've mostly given up.Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-29608747642553783572011-07-19T11:00:24.941-05:002011-07-19T11:00:24.941-05:00If you knew Tora better, and if you didn't rej...If you knew Tora better, and if you didn't reject a whole entire aspect of it, you wouldn't think that way.<br />On any issue, when anyone has a problem with what is defined and brought in the Tora, they are lording themselves over it. Disagreeing with HaShem.Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-72892079221946346972011-07-19T10:44:27.309-05:002011-07-19T10:44:27.309-05:00Your love of Torah is good. But you got involved w...Your love of Torah is good. But you got involved with things Dad warned you about. You ignored those warnings. You became influenced by voices that spoke against Messiah. And now you've walked away from Yeshua and became an enemy of gospel.<br /><br />I still love you. I reject your new anti-Messiah outlook. When you return, I'll be celebrating with you, brother.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-69106777468515404712011-07-19T10:02:52.783-05:002011-07-19T10:02:52.783-05:00Let me finish off most of the comments by adding t...Let me finish off most of the comments by adding that the transition that you listed, point by point, starts with a new-found love of Tora and ends with realizing and accepting all of its truth; which makes it clear what is and what isn't foreign service.Aaronhttp://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/18405514/view/1/producttypecolor/1/type/png/width/280/height/280/jesus-crust-t-shirt_design.pngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-84315021594358201222011-07-19T08:19:54.220-05:002011-07-19T08:19:54.220-05:00"Are you doing what you are doing because you..."Are you doing what you are doing because you are a follower of Yeshua or because you are doing what the rabbis tell you to do? Can you really serve two masters?"<br /><br />Anonymous... you mean to say that YOU yourself don't serve two masters (AT LEAST) by your own definition of what that means - do you not obey the laws of the U.S. Government or work to serve it at least 1hr 55 minutes every day (per http://visual.ly/work-we-do-pay-taxes)?<br /><br />Also, how do you explain away (because that's exactly what you have to do) Yeshua's own command to his Jewish disciples regarding obeying Jewish authorities? Was Yeshua asking his listeners to "serve two masters" as you claim? Can you point to another place in NT where obedience to Jewish authorities is equated to serving two masters?<br /><br />""The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you." (Matthew 23:3)Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-15372251065014791712011-07-19T07:47:03.030-05:002011-07-19T07:47:03.030-05:00Dear Anonymous (whoever you are),
My previous res...Dear Anonymous (whoever you are),<br /><br />My previous response to you must have gotten diverted to the blogger spam bucket (a blogger bug) and I don't know if Judah has been around lately to free it, so I'll try to reconstruct what I said before.<br /><br />You imply a disparity between traditional Jewish prayers and being a disciple of the Jewish Messiah where I don't believe one exists. Some of the prayers in the siddur go all the way back to the time of Moses, so I hardly think they conflict with the Master's teachings (and yes, I'm aware that many have extra-Biblical sources, including the Zohar).<br /><br />The very first blessing I say in the morning, even before getting out of bed, is this:<br /><br /><i>I gratefully thank you, living and existing King, for returning my soul to me with compassion. Abundant is your faithfulness.</i><br /><br />I don't see how that blessing conflicts with my faith in Jesus (Yeshua, if you will) in any way.<br /><br />I also don't understand how reciting the Shema and the very last blessing I recite before I go to sleep, <a href="http://www.achim.org/Bedtime%20Shema.htm" rel="nofollow">the bedtime Shema</a> (though I only recite from Psalm 128 until the end), is a problem.<br /><br />As far as the Talmudic sages being <i>"modern Pharisees"</i> (gosh, you sound like Jesse), I tried to address some of those concerns in a blog post I wrote yesterday called <i>"As If Considering Angels"</i> (click on my name which is a link to my blog and scroll to yesterday's blog post). <br /><br />In fact, if you haven't done so already, reading my blog is a much better way to understand my perspective than what I can express in a blog comment. You can also address any specific points of mine with which you disagree.<br /><br />Why am I doing what I'm doing? I spent a year trying to answer the question of why I was worshiping in a "One Law" context behaving as an "ersatz Jew" while watching my wife, who is Jewish, explore her faith in God in a traditional Jewish community. Probably that, more than anything, eventually convinced me to alter my path.<br /><br />Is that a "leading from the Holy Spirit"? I don't know in absolute terms. I don't hear audible voices in my head telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing. I only know that a long series of events along with many prayers and a lot of studying, have resulted in a strong conviction that God does not mean to destroy the Jewish people, assimilate them into the larger world culture, or obliterate their distinct covenant relationship with God by having non-Jewish believers become Jewish "clones". Starting with Abraham, God sanctified the Jewish people and I don't believe he ever "unsanctified them" in order to bring the Gospel to the rest of the world.<br /><br />You are perfectly free to disagree with the decision I've made about my relationship with God, but my decision applies to only me. I don't impose it on anyone else. You may follow a different path as your conscience dictates. May we both draw closer to God and His will.Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-13806579775059979432011-07-19T05:33:48.512-05:002011-07-19T05:33:48.512-05:00Dear Anonymous (whoever you are),
I really don...Dear Anonymous (whoever you are),<br /><br />I really don't see an inconsistency between being a disciple of the Jewish Messiah and using a siddur in prayer. You imply that the coming of the Jewish Messiah invalidates all subsequent Jewish faith in God and I don't believe that's true. I've seen great faith and devotion to God in the synagogue and I'm not about to wipe my feet on the Jewish people just because they don't sing "Praise Jesus" and wave their hands in the air.<br /><br />The first blessing I say every morning, even before I get out of bed, is this:<br /><br /><i>I gratefully thank you, living and existing King, for returning my soul to me with compassion. Abundant is your faithfulness.</i><br /><br />I don't find anything speaking against the Master in this blessing. I don't find anything against the Messiah in saying the Shema or the last blessing I speak before retiring, the <a href="http://www.achim.org/Bedtime%20Shema.htm" rel="nofollow">bedtime Shema</a> (though I only recite from Psalm 128 to the end).<br /><br />If you haven't done so already, please visit my blog (just click on my name...it's a link). I incorporate more than a little of the Talmud and Chassidic writings (particularly the sayings of the Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schreerson as related by Rabbi Tzvi Freeman) into the expression of my faith in Jesus (Yeshua, if you will). You'll get a more detailed view of my perspective there than I can express in a blog comment. I'll be glad to try and answer any specific questions about what I've said in any of my wee essays (and yes, I'm an oddball).Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-73823706481775091512011-07-19T01:44:04.165-05:002011-07-19T01:44:04.165-05:00James,
Ask yourself a fundamental question. Are ...James,<br /><br />Ask yourself a fundamental question. Are you doing what you are doing because you are a follower of Yeshua or because you are doing what the rabbis tell you to do? Can you really serve two masters? I don't think the tallit and kippah are the issue. Is the Holy Spirit telling you to put down your kippah and tallit?<br /><br />I do perceive a difficulty when followers of Yeshua, whether Jew or non-Jew, take their spiritual food from a non-believing source. On the use of a siddur from a non-believing source, I have one case where Dr. Michael L. Brown has stated concerns while in another Boaz Michael of FFOZ indicates no concern. Like physical food, I believe we too are what we eat when it comes to spiritual food.<br /><br />I have seen great damage done to believers at the hands of those who purport to be disciples of Yeshua but are really disciples of the modern Pharisees. I pray that if you have not been similarly damaged that if you have that you seek, find and remain in the love of Yeshua in your spiritual journey going forward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-72108996592575278902011-07-18T21:42:06.994-05:002011-07-18T21:42:06.994-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.David Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07254854096771839012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-38130504619581799182011-07-17T11:53:14.038-05:002011-07-17T11:53:14.038-05:00How do you feel about a Jewish Believer using an A...<i>How do you feel about a Jewish Believer using an Artscroll siddur? How do you feel about a non-Jewish Believer using an Artscoll siddur?</i><br /><br />Dear Anonymous,<br /><br />Although I've put away my tallit and kippah as I explore a Gentile's faith of the Jewish Messiah the realm of Jewish study, I continue to pray with my Artscroll siddur. Do you perceive a difficulty here?Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81791610092041346552011-07-17T02:11:20.156-05:002011-07-17T02:11:20.156-05:00Gene,
Good one on the stopping beating one's ...Gene,<br /><br />Good one on the stopping beating one's wife... 8-)<br /><br />How do you feel about a Jewish Believer using an Artscroll siddur? How do you feel about a non-Jewish Believer using an Artscoll siddur?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-25123250044557281772011-07-15T11:12:39.668-05:002011-07-15T11:12:39.668-05:00"Based upon my question and your answer the f..."Based upon my question and your answer the following is the simplest way to express your answer based upon my question: "Yes." Did I understand you correctly?"<br /><br />Anonymous, my "Yes" is my answer only to the question as REFRAMED by me because it takes into account the ongoing and irrevocable covenantal status of Jewish people as well as authority acknowledged of Jewish leaders by Yeshua himself. Jewish sages are not simply an "unbelieving source" as if they were no different than Buddhists priests or Muslim imams or followers or leaders of any other so called "man-made religion" (as Christianity has viewed Jews and Judaism, historically).<br /><br />To answer your question unreframed directly with a Yes or No <i>without</i> taking into account all of the above is no different than answering a question: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" with Yes or No.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-44387579722981437332011-07-15T10:48:15.975-05:002011-07-15T10:48:15.975-05:00Gene,
Thank you for your reply. I just want to m...Gene,<br /><br />Thank you for your reply. I just want to make sure I understood you correctly. I said:<br /><br />"Is it then possible a follower of Yeshua, a Jewish Believer, could have "established standards" placed upon them that originate from a non-Believing source?"<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />"Anonymous, devout Jews are the "believing source". They believe in Messiah too and eagerly await him. They just do not recognize the "face" of Yeshua as that Messiah YET because he is disguised from them (as Joseph was in Egypt). They did not stop being G-d's People (same can't be said of any other people group and religion)."<br /><br />Based upon my question and your answer the following is the simplest way to express your answer based upon my question:<br /><br />"Yes."<br /><br />Did I understand you correctly?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-61041690926868559762011-07-14T13:13:01.175-05:002011-07-14T13:13:01.175-05:00"Is it then possible a follower of Yeshua, a ..."Is it then possible a follower of Yeshua, a Jewish Believer, could have "established standards" placed upon them that originate from a non-Believing source?"<br /><br />Anonymous, devout Jews are the "believing source". They believe in Messiah too and eagerly await him. They just do not recognize the "face" of Yeshua as that Messiah YET because he is disguised from them (as Joseph was in Egypt). They did not stop being G-d's People (same can't be said of any other people group and religion).Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87640214493067975122011-07-14T12:02:25.556-05:002011-07-14T12:02:25.556-05:00The Jewish world could use such a reformation to f...<i>The Jewish world could use such a reformation to free us from some of the bondage and heavy burdens that some traditions have created around the Torah. </i><br /><br />You probably know this already Judah, but there are very reformed versions of Judaism that set aside most or all of halachah, so you've got your wish. Also, what burden does Judaism put on you? I'm sure your congregation doesn't conform to the standards of halachah set forth by the Orthdox (or for that matter, the Conservative or Reform movements), so you shouldn't feel burdened at all. In fact, anyone who is complying with halachah are accepting the burden voluntarily (OK, if you were born into an Orthodox family, you didn't "volunteer", but plenty of kids leave the religion of their parents when they get old enough). No one is holding a gun to your head (or anyone else's head) and saying, "grow payot or die".<br /><br /><i>Rather, there are certain traditions, created by regular people, that are contrary to the divine words of the Torah. </i><br /><br />We could go into whether or not we should consider the Rabbinic sages "regular people", but I'll blow past that one. What portions of Jewish tradition directly contradict the Torah (because theoretically, they shouldn't)?<br /><br />Oh, on your other blog post, I made a comment inviting Jesse to read the blog post I'm publishing for tomorrow's "morning meditation": "Who Are Our Teachers?". I hope you'll consider reading it, too. It shows (hopefully) the other side of what it is to be a disciple and a student (the light and not the dark side) and I hope I can add some illumination to this discussion. I tried doing that with yesterday afternoon's "Tasty Chazir" blog post, but I don't think my point was significantly compelling. More's the pity.Jameshttp://mymorningmeditations.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-2820330574913872672011-07-14T11:41:26.918-05:002011-07-14T11:41:26.918-05:00Gene,
I understand you are saying the "estab...Gene,<br /><br />I understand you are saying the "established standards" for the "Messianic Jewish community" that operates within the "Jewish community" has Judaism as its source.<br /><br />Is it then possible a follower of Yeshua, a Jewish Believer, could have "established standards" placed upon them that originate from a non-Believing source?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87120974201753711762011-07-14T11:09:51.947-05:002011-07-14T11:09:51.947-05:00"There's another key difference between u..."There's another key difference between us. I believe the Protestant Reformation was from God."<br /><br />Who said that I don't believe that it was? But for that matter, Catholicism was from G-d too - after all, it gave birth to Catholic Monk's Martin Luther's Protestantism in the 16th century.<br /><br />"Like the selling of indulgences, some of the traditions of Judaism are unscriptural and enslaving. Some of them nullify God's commandments. Messiah attested to this. "<br /><br />You mean that Judaism today teaches that one should give to charity instead of supporting one's parents? (Oh, wait, that was just Yeshua scolding practices of SOME of his detractors instead of making blank condemnation of Judaism of which he was part).Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81948675396579649522011-07-14T10:58:24.251-05:002011-07-14T10:58:24.251-05:00"What is the source of the "established ..."What is the source of the "established standards" you cited?"<br /><br />Judaism (yes, there are varieties - so, whatever the standards of a community of Judaism a particular group of Jewish believers have descended from).Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81436064359048214512011-07-14T10:56:02.604-05:002011-07-14T10:56:02.604-05:00There's another key difference between us.
I ...There's another key difference between us.<br /><br />I believe the Protestant Reformation was from God. It brought people out of traditions-gone-haywire (selling forgiveness of sins - really?) and abuse of the "ORDER, PEACE and SANITY" that big organized religion is supposed to bring.<br /><br />Like Gene, the Catholic Church had claimed that individuals can't interpret Scripture for themselves; and like Gene, they claimed the only way to properly understand the Scripture was through the lenses of the big religious organization at the top.<br /><br />This gave power to the Church, which it promptly abused in persecuting Jews and Christians who didn't see things the Church's way.<br /><br />The Protestant Reformation served as an important foundation even for today's Messianic movement. The Reformation made it possible for Messianic Judaism to be born.<br /><br />The Jewish world could use such a reformation to free us from some of the bondage and heavy burdens that some traditions have created around the Torah. <br /><br />Like the selling of indulgences, some of the traditions of Judaism are unscriptural and enslaving. Some of them nullify God's commandments. Messiah attested to this. <br /><br />It doesn't mean all traditions are bad, God forbid. Just like it doesn't mean everything Catholic is bad. Rather, there are certain traditions, created by regular people, that are contrary to the divine words of the Torah. When that occurs, we should throw out those traditions. Further, we should keep traditions in their proper place: firmly beneath Scripture.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70009753459777031942011-07-14T10:47:07.371-05:002011-07-14T10:47:07.371-05:00Gene,
In the context of the "Messianic Jewis...Gene,<br /><br />In the context of the "Messianic Jewish community" that is also acting as "Jewish community," you said:<br /><br />"That's easy. The opposite is one DEPENDENT on established standards and community leadership. In other words the opposite is more ORDER, more PEACE and more SANITY, more COMMUNITY vs. every man/woman making their own private little religion as they go and fighting with those who disagree and splitting into ever smaller home church groups."<br /><br />What is the source of the "established standards" you cited?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-43025015997452461142011-07-14T10:33:34.770-05:002011-07-14T10:33:34.770-05:00"I've yet to hear a compelling argument f..."I've yet to hear a compelling argument from Gene's side that does not also invalidate all of Protestantism."<br /><br />I am not here to draw from Protestantism lessons for a Jewish halachic community). The way Protestantism works is not a model for me and it should not be one for Jewish followers of Yeshua. Even so, until fairly recently, Protestantism was heavily denominational (which meant established standards and creeds - a Protestant "halacha" if you will).Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-74359531556054468572011-07-14T10:27:12.977-05:002011-07-14T10:27:12.977-05:00I've yet to hear a compelling argument from Ge...I've yet to hear a compelling argument from Gene's side that does not also invalidate all of Protestantism.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.com