tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post393987077033078183..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Conclusions on Former GentilesJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-32491575403107296752008-11-22T13:34:00.000-06:002008-11-22T13:34:00.000-06:00Judah, That is really cool. Thanks for dissecting...Judah, <BR/>That is really cool. Thanks for dissecting that aaaand putting it back together.<BR/><BR/>Ripening for the harvest, <BR/>TrentGraceHeadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16511471036658708352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-10895703598770018872008-11-15T13:12:00.000-06:002008-11-15T13:12:00.000-06:00By the way, here was the source for the guidelines...By the way, here was the source for the guidelines given in post above (to give credit). <BR/>Scroll down to bottom of linked page. By the way the whole website is pretty darn good.<BR/><BR/>http://www.christian-thinktank.com/what.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-6278178726100127782008-11-15T12:21:00.000-06:002008-11-15T12:21:00.000-06:00I found this online and wanted to share it. Sort ...I found this online and wanted to share it. Sort of a guide for debate within the Body of Messiah.<BR/><BR/>1.The God of Truth is NOT afraid of our questions. <BR/>2. Our God is God of the whole person: will, emotions, body, even our intellect. <BR/>3. God is seriously committed to truth--whatever the cost...as His children, so should we be. <BR/>4. Taking a person's questions seriously is an act of respect and love, even when they don't really take them seriously. <BR/>5. Distortion, misrepresentation, or deception through omission are unethical. <BR/>6. When we don't know the answer, we must say 'I do not know'... <BR/>7. If a sincere question (as a felt need) comes our way, we should attempt to meet that need through answers, resources, or encouragement to patience. <BR/>8. We are not allowed to be contentious or to argue for argument's sake. <BR/>9. We should be changing the shape of eternity, one conversation at a time. <BR/>Sometimes the best answer is silence. <BR/>10. Prov. 18:13: "He who answers before listening -- that is his folly and his shame." <BR/>12. "Slander" includes misrepresentation. <BR/>13. Chronic ignorance can become irresponsibility, and chronic irresponsibly can become a moral failure. <BR/>14. It is not a sin to have unanswered questions and agonizing doubts--you can raise more questions in 5 minutes than you can answer in 50 years! <BR/>15. It is generally dishonest to reject a belief which you have N+1 arguments for, on the basis of only N arguments against (all argument weights being equal)...it is also somewhat foolish. <BR/>16. Unanswered questions CAN be a source of emotional pain. <BR/>17. This is NOT A GAME we're in. <BR/><BR/>God Bless,<BR/><BR/>ToddAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-65201198778273051732008-11-15T06:51:00.000-06:002008-11-15T06:51:00.000-06:00Guess that means I win! =DHahaha, jk.Guess that means I win! =D<BR/><BR/>Hahaha, jk.A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-32923848283734707312008-11-14T11:00:00.000-06:002008-11-14T11:00:00.000-06:00Hahah, you're right, Robyn. :-)I am for at least 2...Hahah, you're right, Robyn. :-)<BR/><BR/>I am for at least 2 posts/week. (And in fact, this year I have accomplished that and more.)<BR/><BR/>New post time! :-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-86623711108195233462008-11-14T10:08:00.000-06:002008-11-14T10:08:00.000-06:00Seems like the debate has finally fizzled out...Ti...Seems like the debate has finally fizzled out...Time for a new post! :)robyn L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02686363445809233488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-38834607711457217672008-11-14T03:55:00.000-06:002008-11-14T03:55:00.000-06:00Patrick, you also said,"Don't the Rabbis have a sa...Patrick, you also said,<BR/><BR/>"Don't the Rabbis have a saying about the Ark of the Covenant- that the cherubim didn't see eye to eye, but were focusing on the seat of grace?"<BR/><BR/>Yes, the kruvim looked down at the Sh'chinat-El descending on the mercy seat.A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-49869952404278930732008-11-14T03:53:00.000-06:002008-11-14T03:53:00.000-06:00Patrick,You said,"I have to admit I'm uncomfortabl...Patrick,<BR/><BR/>You said,<BR/>"<I>I have to admit I'm uncomfortable with the notion that "Jews" do not constitute all of "Israel", yet I understand the argument that the scattered northern Kingdom should still be considered descendants of the "Abrahamic covenant people".</I>"<BR/><BR/>I'm a zealot for the house of Judah - the Jewish people, and for Judaism. And yet, I am not arrogant in that I reject a non-Jew to be an Israelite, as it Judah's mistake in the Master's parable of the prodigal son. His younger brother returns from a heathen life, eating unkosher food, idolatry, etc, and he is not happy about his Father's good treatment of his younger brother, namely, Ephraim.<BR/><BR/>That's not me. And that's not a lot of other Jews either. Has anyone ever heard of the b'nei Menashe? That's just one good example of modern Orthodox Judaism accepting the returnees of the house of Ephraim (which obviously included the tribe of Menashe).<BR/><BR/>There are genetic findings in certain small groups of people in various locations in the world who are proven to be sons of Aharon HaCohen. Among these include a certain African tribe in Zimbawe, I think. Others are white, others are whatever color, whatever race they may be. This isn't even just Israelites, I'm talking Cohanim!<BR/><BR/>Many of them have taken on the appearances of their surrounding neighbors. They may look European, African, Asian, or any other ethnicity. It doesn't matter though, they (the ones proven by genetics) are offspring of Ya'akov Avinu himself.<BR/><BR/>I believe in the Millenial Kingdom of Mashiach, the Beit HaMikdash (Holy Temple) will be rebuilt in Yerushalayim, and all the 12 tribes gathered back to Torah observance (the Faith of Israel; Judaism) and gathered back in the Land, and when we all come up to Yerushalayim at the appointed times each year, there will be a multitude of Semitic-looking Jews, as well as a black Israelite here, a blond-haired there, an Asian-featured over there, an eastern Indian someplace, an American Indian/Native over here. And what do they have in common? They're all either physical descendants of Ya'akov, worshiping HaShem, or they come from an entirely goyish background but have joined themselves to Israel.<BR/><BR/>Thus fulfilling the words that it will be a house of prayer for all nations. I definitely don't think that is fulfilled in there being Christians and Muslims and their holy sites alongside us and our holy sites in Jerusalem. Get the false religions and their people out of my Father's Land, out of my Father's city, and off my Father's Temple Mount. Let Torah reign supreme and Judaism established and known by all the world as the One True Faith in the One True El.<BR/>May Mashiach come and do this work soon in our days!A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-55046109399023487532008-11-13T19:33:00.000-06:002008-11-13T19:33:00.000-06:00Wow! Wanting to check back and see if anyone had m...<I>Wow! Wanting to check back and see if anyone had made any remarks on my initial comments regarding Ephesians, it seems to me that things have spiraled way beyond..</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry JK, that was my fault.<BR/><BR/><I>I say the enemy has us right where he wants us.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, we must be cautious. Ignorance certainly seems bliss, there are plenty of Christians who simply support and love the nation of Israel due to Biblical understanding, and don't want to delve into (what seems like) semantics on who-is-Israel.<BR/><BR/>Having said that I commend and thank all posters here for putting my understanding of "Israelology" up a notch of sophistication. <BR/><BR/>I have to admit I'm uncomfortable with the notion that "Jews" do not constitute all of "Israel", yet I understand the argument that the scattered northern Kingdom should still be considered descendants of the "Abrahamic covenant people". <BR/><BR/>On a less serious note, the notion that these Ephraimites may consist of Poms really lights my candle! I'm Australian of English descent ... I could be a descendant of Jacob! Whoo-hoo!<BR/><BR/>But, perhaps only G-d will know that.<BR/><BR/>JK McKee, I'm just working through TNN. It really is refreshing. <BR/><BR/>I have been from an Anglican background, (ambivalent on issues such as Israel or Dispensationalism v Preterism etc) to an evangelical environment bombarded with Left Behind theology. So you can see why I'm easily confused. Your teachings certainly do keep the center, I hope to learn more and impart the same centrist calm upon my home study group, while still getting excited about what G-d is doing today.<BR/><BR/>Don't the Rabbis have a saying about the Ark of the Covenant- that the cherubim didn't see eye to eye, but were focusing on the seat of grace?P. H. Athertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02525136600124823594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-52381286413642421752008-11-13T17:04:00.000-06:002008-11-13T17:04:00.000-06:00For Gene and Judah's benefit, "all the House of Is...For Gene and Judah's benefit, "all the House of Israel" (regardless of whether or not it was in the quoted text) always refers to all 12 tribes.<BR/><BR/>In Hebrew, kol Beit Yisrael means all the house of Israel. House of Israel was used to describe all of Israel, especially when refered to as "kol/whole/all Beit Yisrael", and at other times was used as a name for the northern kingdom. We know this because of context.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, when someone says kol Beit Yisrael, they are usually meaning all 12 tribes.<BR/><BR/><BR/>On another note, I find it very interesting that the distinguishing between House of Judah and House of Israel has been since at least as early as David's time. And its interesting to see how the House of Israel rebelled against King David and the House of Judah, even at times came against them with many men, and were defeated.<BR/><BR/>Could David HaMelech be representing Mashiach here, and the House of Judah as Judaism? The House of Israel as the rebellious tribes who rebel against Mashiach and his true teachings and faith, in the form of Christianity maybe?<BR/><BR/>Just a thought, and if Gene is right, I could be entirely wrong.A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-84004823991329089342008-11-13T16:18:00.000-06:002008-11-13T16:18:00.000-06:00And I would like to clarify something: I am not a ...And I would like to clarify something: <B>I am not a part of the "Ephraimite" movement, and I have never called it such.</B> My identity is first rooted in Yeshua (Phil 3:20, et. al.) But I do believe in the eschatological restoration of all Israel, something which Eze 37 tells us involves Judah, scattered Israel/Ephraim, *and* companions.<BR/><BR/>What does Isaiah 49:6 say? "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."<BR/><BR/>Israel's restoration involves the whole world, something Messianic Judaism largely does not emphasize in its missiology. And why the "Ephraimite" movement cannot let God sort out the details is beyond me. We should emphasize that we are all His children, equal because of human sin (Rom 5), and that perhaps more is going on than meets the eye as the mystery unfolds. But I guess we can't be that surprised--theologically the whole Messianic movement is about 20 years behind where it needs to be! (With big changes up ahead in the 2010s.)<BR/><BR/>A "hands off" approach to some of this is much safer, and it is does not go beyond the Biblical text.<BR/><BR/>I discuss this more in my article "Revisiting the Two-House Teaching."<BR/><BR/>I will not post any more on this thread, as you all can contact me or my ministry privately.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-33103811341326039502008-11-13T16:08:00.000-06:002008-11-13T16:08:00.000-06:00Gene, you were right about "house of Israel" in Ac...Gene, you were right about "house of Israel" in Acts. My mistake, I apologize. I was reading from NIV. (Maybe that was a mistake too! :-))<BR/><BR/><I>The prophecy you cited speaks nothing of Gentiles really being Jews or Lost Tribes.</I><BR/><BR/>Hmm. A prophecy of northern Israel losing their identity, then returning to God, returning to Israel with Judah in the last days.<BR/><BR/>And Ezekiel talks about us these 2 nations once again becoming one Israel in the last days.<BR/><BR/>Interpreting this in light with "Jews comprise all Israel" would read like this:<BR/><BR/>"In the last days, I'll turn the [Jewish nation #2] back to God and bring then back to the land of Israel. Then I'll unite them with the [the Jewish nation #1] of Judah."<BR/><BR/>Yep, confirmed. Prophecy destroys that theology.<BR/><BR/>I actually agree with J.K. here; there is certainly abuses in the Ephraimite movement. There exists, nonetheless, a 2 Houses of Israel in Scripture, for which there will be a final restoration and unification of Israel in the last days.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-39290913368032333862008-11-13T16:00:00.000-06:002008-11-13T16:00:00.000-06:00Wow! Wanting to check back and see if anyone had m...Wow! Wanting to check back and see if anyone had made any remarks on my initial comments regarding Ephesians, it seems to me that things have spiraled way beyond the text of Ephesians and into things which are largely peripheral to Paul's letter.<BR/><BR/>I will just say that there is *a* Two-House teaching in the Bible, one which relates to the full eschatological restoration of Israel. (Even dispesnational commentators recognize that Ezekiel 37:15-28 is a yet to be fulfilled prophecy.) But is the Two-House teaching that has become so en vogue in the past decade, complete with people thinking that they can trace this tribe or that tribe, the Biblical Two-House teaching? <B>Oh God I hope not.</B> It has largely become infused with a great deal of urban legends and human agendas.<BR/><BR/>When we can learn to stick with the text, and place our emotionalism aside, then maybe we will achieve something. Right now the debate is polarized between a Jewish side that often fails to recognize non-Jewish Believers as their complete equals in the Lord. And on the other side are non-Jewish Two-House advocates who kick Messianic Judaism in the tuccus for not using the Divine Name, the Rabbinical calendar, and generally do not care about Jewish tradition at all--not exactly helping their stated cause of wanting "to reunite with Judah." I say the enemy has us right where he wants us.<BR/><BR/>I discussed some of this in my blog for today:<BR/><BR/>http://mchuey.wordpress.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81585988645180761782008-11-13T15:56:00.000-06:002008-11-13T15:56:00.000-06:00"Gene, I have to call your bluff on something else..."Gene, I have to call your bluff on something else: you are inserting "House of Israel" in places it doesn't exist. Acts 2 doesn't say "house of Israel". Messiah's words in Matthew 10 also does not say "House of Israel"."<BR/><BR/>You said: "I suggested Scripture-prophecy destroys the theology that Jews comprise all Israel. I don't see you contesting that."<BR/><BR/>The prophecy you cited speaks nothing of Gentiles really being Jews or Lost Tribes. I think I have contested that plenty.<BR/><BR/>You said: "Your theology of "Jews comprise all Israel" cannot be; it doesn't line up. So change your theology to something else; it doesn't have to be mine."<BR/><BR/>Thanks - I can have a pick of a bunch that also believe that Jews don't comprise all Israel (or even none at all), let's see what my choices are:<BR/><BR/>- Mormons<BR/>- Jehovah Witnesses<BR/>- British Israelism<BR/>- Worldwide Church of God<BR/>- Millerites<BR/>- Seven Day Adventists<BR/>- Insular Celts<BR/>- Native Americans (if you believe the Mormons)<BR/>- and I am sure many many more...<BR/><BR/>Thanks Judah... with choices like this, I think I'll stick with Messianic Judaism.<BR/><BR/>----<BR/><BR/>Judah, are you sure about that the House of Israel is not talked about in Acts I quoted (what Bible version are you reading? The Wooten Special Edition?)<BR/><BR/>When I look up "Acts 2:36", I read the Bible in Russian, Spanish, English translations AND also in Greek: as it's written:<BR/><BR/>"Therefore let all the house of Israel know beyond a doubt that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ."<BR/><BR/>The word for house in the Greek version is ALSO there: "oy'-kos"<BR/><BR/>So, am I correct again? (the only version that didn't have "house" is NIV).<BR/><BR/>Didn't look up Matthew...don't have time - I think the above example is sufficient. So, were you right or wrong to call my bluff?<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-28497903326738506462008-11-13T15:44:00.000-06:002008-11-13T15:44:00.000-06:00There is nothing in that text about her being an I...<I>There is nothing in that text about her being an Israelite - she was still a Samaritan woman to Yeshua (and He told his disciples to NOT go to them, at least at first). You see, to be an Israelite you have to be part of the people of Israel - having a few drops of blood ALONE is apparently not enough.</I><BR/><BR/>Yep. Even if one is 100% descendant of Jacob, if you're not part of the people of Israel, not following Torah, not striving for righteousness or living rightly, not loving the land God gave to Israel, I question whether that person is an Israelite.<BR/><BR/>I propose to you that many Efraimites love Israel, love Torah, love the Jewish people, love the land, and give up possessions and family to defend those beliefs.<BR/><BR/>Gene, such people aren't our enemies. That's why I defend them.<BR/><BR/>What does Hosea have to do with Gentiles in America, Britain or elsewhere claiming to be Ephraim and Manasseh?<BR/><BR/>I suggested Scripture-prophecy destroys the theology that Jews comprise all Israel. I don't see you contesting that. Your theology of "Jews comprise all Israel" cannot be; it doesn't line up. So change your theology to something else; it doesn't have to be mine.<BR/><BR/>Gene, I have to call your bluff on something else: you are inserting "House of Israel" in places it doesn't exist. Acts 2 doesn't say "house of Israel".Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-6219435095983406692008-11-13T14:45:00.000-06:002008-11-13T14:45:00.000-06:00"Gene, I think your interpretation of Matthew 10 i..."Gene, I think your interpretation of Matthew 10 is right.(See? I'm honest with you.)"<BR/><BR/>I knew all along that you were both smart AND honest - this proves it:)<BR/><BR/>"That Samaritans and gentiles aren't the lost sheep of Israel doesn't change that there exists Israelites outside of the Jewish people. As you note, Yeshua didn't deny that the Samaritan woman was an Israelite."<BR/><BR/>There is nothing in that text about her being an Israelite - she was still a Samaritan woman to Yeshua (and He told his disciples to NOT go to them, at least at first). You see, to be an Israelite you have to be part of the people of Israel - having a few drops of blood ALONE is apparently not enough. <BR/><BR/>While I view the today's Gentile Efraimites as only existing in someone's overactive imagination, even if there are actually people who had descended from Jacob many hundreds of generations back but mixed in completely with Gentiles over thousands of years, those people are no more the lost sheep of Israel than Samaritans were.<BR/><BR/>I am going to attempt to make a funny analogy here: let say that Jews are toy poodles and Gentiles are German Shepherds (btw, I like GS a lot more than poodles, but that's another story).<BR/><BR/>Let say you cross a Poodle with a German Shepherd, and of course you'd get something in between:) But then, you just continue to breed the resulting animal ONLY with other GSs (and avoid those pesky Poodles all together) for hundreds or thousands of years. After thousands of years, if you'll try to sell that puppy and claim it's a Poodle, you'll have a very hard time convincing the buyers:) LOL! Woof!<BR/><BR/>I don't buy your poodle:)<BR/><BR/>"Can you, Gene, explain away Hosea in light of the above?"<BR/><BR/>Judah, what does Hosea have to do with Gentiles in America, Britain or elsewhere claiming to be Ephraim and Manasseh?<BR/><BR/>But notice this: "The House of Israel will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol."<BR/><BR/>You're telling me that the Gentiles who forgot they were Israelites lived WITHOUT an idol for thousands of years/days? Sure doesn't sound like the Gentiles.<BR/><BR/>So, you are telling me that the House of Israel refers to the Gentiles who are really Israelites, and House of Judah, to the Jews? OK, how about the following verse with words of Peter speaking to the crowd of JEWS:<BR/><BR/>Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the House of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Yeshua whom YOU crucified."<BR/><BR/>Who was Peter speaking to? Was it not Jews?<BR/><BR/>"Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from EVERY NATION under heaven."<BR/><BR/>Jews, and from every nation to boot, eh?<BR/><BR/>"Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. " <BR/><BR/>"Men of Israel, listen to these words..."<BR/><BR/>Judah, I don't know... it seems that the "Two Houses" are built on nothing but sand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-19104765463395323602008-11-13T14:08:00.000-06:002008-11-13T14:08:00.000-06:00Gene, I think your interpretation of Matthew 10 is...Gene, I think your interpretation of Matthew 10 is right.<BR/><BR/>(See? I'm honest with you.)<BR/><BR/>That Samaritans and gentiles aren't the lost sheep of Israel doesn't change that there exists Israelites outside of the Jewish people. As you note, Yeshua didn't deny that the Samaritan woman was an Israelite.<BR/><BR/>I told you prophecy destroys your theology that Jews comprise all Israel. Here's an example:<BR/><BR/><I>Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call your daughter Lo-Ruhamah, for I will no longer show love to the house of Israel, that I should at all forgive them. Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them—not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the LORD their God."<BR/><BR/>The House of Israel will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.</I><BR/><BR/>Can you, Gene, explain away Hosea in light of the above? I'm amazed anyone can take your theology seriously!<BR/><BR/>(I hope you don't mind, I stole a few plays from your playbook at the end there! :-))Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-64360592386527714862008-11-13T13:22:00.000-06:002008-11-13T13:22:00.000-06:00"One simple explanation is: Messiah's statement wa..."One simple explanation is: Messiah's statement was less about who is Israel and more about the lost state of an Israelite."<BR/><BR/>Hah??? What does that mean - didn't Yeshua just give specific orders to the disciples as to whom they should go, instead of simply commenting on their spiritual condition? In any case, he obviously didn't identify the Samaritans (who claimed Yaakov as their father just as Efraimites do) as Israelites!<BR/><BR/>"And isn't that precisely what Hosea prophesied? He prophesied that the House of Israel, the northern nation, would be taken captive and lose their identity until the last days."<BR/><BR/>Can you quote me Hosea where he tells of Israelites losing their Israelite identity, where it is predicted that they will not KNOW they are Israelites for thousands of years and think of themselves as Gentiles instead? I know what your movement's prophetess Batya Wooten teaches on Hosea... and I amazed that anyone takes her seriously!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-90783100094158047332008-11-13T12:58:00.000-06:002008-11-13T12:58:00.000-06:00can you Judah explain away Matthew 10:5-6 in the l...<I>can you Judah explain away Matthew 10:5-6 in the light of the above?</I><BR/><BR/>Oh, I don't know, Gene. Nobody knows that but G-d.<BR/><BR/>;-) (Sorry, couldn't resist!)<BR/><BR/>One simple explanation is: Messiah's statement was less about who is Israel and more about the lost state of an Israelite.<BR/><BR/>Here's the problem I have with your theology, Gene. It cannot fit with prophecy. Hosea destroys your theology.<BR/><BR/>Waiting for your fun response. ;-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1972177621300470272008-11-13T12:48:00.000-06:002008-11-13T12:48:00.000-06:00"You still didn't address the question - isn't it ..."You still didn't address the question - isn't it possible, even likely, that there exists descendants of Israel outside of the Jewish people?"<BR/><BR/>Judah... it's an argument from silence - nobody knows that but G-d, and certainly not the people who today boldy and without doubt claim to be Efraimites/Israelites today and actively promote this idea to others. <BR/><BR/>The question, however, is who G-D think is Israel today. The DNA tests done on the Samaritans show that many of them have Israelite descent, and indeed they THEMSELVES claim descent from Jacob/Israel. And they certainly have a much great claim than anyone who lives in Tennessee and claims to be an Israelite. HOWEVER, while this may or may not be true, apparently it wasn't enough for Yeshua - he didn't call them Israelite when he said the following:<BR/><BR/>"These were the twelve disciples whom Yeshua sent out after he had given them these instructions: "Don't turn on to the road that leads to the Gentiles, and don't enter Samaritan towns. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)<BR/><BR/>Also, while still thinking about the above verse, here's a Samaritan woman's claim (not contradicted by Yeshua, BTW) that Jacob is THEIR father:<BR/><BR/>"Are you greater than OUR FATHER Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from..." (John 4:12)<BR/><BR/>If the Samaritans, who most likely have DO their origins in the tribes of Israel and actually called Jacob/Israel their FATHER to Yeshua's face, are NOT identified as the lost sheep of Israel by Yeshua himself (see Matthew 10:5-6), what does it tell you about Efraimites whose claims are much more ethereal!???<BR/><BR/>Seriously, can you Judah explain away Matthew 10:5-6 in the light of the above?<BR/><BR/>Fun ah?<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-76745634440849099642008-11-13T12:26:00.000-06:002008-11-13T12:26:00.000-06:00Surely you know that people in other tribes left t...<I>Surely you know that people in other tribes left the Kingdom of Israel and joined the Kingdom of Judah right before captivity? So, this would mean that all the tribes, in whatever amounts doesn't really matter, ARE today represented in the nation and people known as Israel - there's NO NEED to go looking for some imaginary Ephraimite Israelites.</I><BR/><BR/>Ahh, nice dodge!<BR/><BR/>You still didn't address the question - isn't it possible, even likely, that there exists descendants of Israel outside of the Jewish people?<BR/><BR/><I>Who did Hitler/Satan wanted to destroy and erase from memory, the Spanish? Apparently in the supernatural realm, to both G-d and Hasatan it still very much matters, as much as you try to want to minimize it.</I><BR/><BR/>Destroy and erase from memory...the House of Judah, the Jewish people. And the House of Israel.<BR/><BR/>I mean, the Holocaust was terrible for the Jewish people, but how much worse what happened to the northern nation of Israel -- having been taken captive for hundreds of years, then finally assimilating and losing identity. (Something, at least, the Jewish people have been able to resist.)<BR/><BR/>And isn't that precisely what Hosea prophesied? He prophesied that the House of Israel, the northern nation, would be taken captive and lose their identity until the last days.<BR/><BR/>What of that prophecy, Gene?Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62880565316994327322008-11-13T12:16:00.000-06:002008-11-13T12:16:00.000-06:00"You said you "feel sorry" for such people and hav..."You said you "feel sorry" for such people and have contempt for their theology. Your bias shines through, Gene."<BR/><BR/>Remember the good ol' Christian saying "Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner":)!?<BR/><BR/>"You mention there are some religious nuts among the Ephraimites. Yep, sure. There are also nuts among Messianics. And Orthodox. And Christians."<BR/><BR/>Pointing to the nuts in other streams doesn't make Ephraimites' Two-House theology and core beliefs about their origins any less nutty.<BR/><BR/>"One thing I find interesting in all this is the fact that Israel went into dispersion and never returned is not discussed."<BR/><BR/>Surely you know that people in other tribes left the Kingdom of Israel and joined the Kingdom of Judah right before captivity? So, this would mean that all the tribes, in whatever amounts doesn't really matter, ARE today represented in the nation and people known as Israel - there's NO NEED to go looking for some imaginary Ephraimite Israelites.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Surely someone, somewhere with some mixed bloodline is an Israelite."<BR/><BR/>Yes, while declaring that bloodline doesn't matter, you still insist on bringing it up - not only that, even a little drop, however mixed over the many thousands of years, apparently does matter to you, Judah!<BR/><BR/>"Heck, we have folks from Ethiopia, Samaria, India, China, other parts of Africa, Britian, Persia, to name a few, who claim Israelite descent. Isn't it possible?"<BR/><BR/>Claiming and historical reality are two different things. There are people who claim that they are Napoleons.<BR/><BR/>"I differ with many of them, and perhaps you, Gene, by saying physical descent matters little. I mean, if we're grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, does it matter whether we're physical descendants of Jacob?"<BR/><BR/>Who is G-d regathering to the Land of Israel today, Japanese? Who did Hitler/Satan wanted to destroy and erase from memory, the Spanish? Apparently in the supernatural realm, to both G-d and Hasatan it still very much matters, as much as you try to want to minimize it.<BR/><BR/>"I thought we just finished reading that Messiah has given us both, Jacob-descendant and non-Jacob-descendant, equal access to God."<BR/><BR/>And I will repeat again: each believer is equally loved, equal before G-d, each person and nation is different and unique in the way they were created and shaped, each nation and person is also different and unique in gifts and responsibilities.<BR/><BR/>Why can't I be equally LOVED and yet be different than YOU or anyone else? Does everyone in the Body has the same function?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-68620124812882662442008-11-13T12:04:00.000-06:002008-11-13T12:04:00.000-06:00Hey Gene. You said,Judah, I really doubt that the ...Hey Gene. You said,<BR/><BR/><I>Judah, I really doubt that the overwhelming majority of them have any love for anything other than the land on which the Jews walk.</I><BR/><BR/>Now that's subjective, Gene.<BR/><BR/>And I sure hope that's not true.<BR/><BR/>The folks I've met and known for years suggests something quite different than the picture you paint: their love for the Jewish people and for the land of Israel led them to their understanding of a complete, reunited Israel.<BR/><BR/>You said you "feel sorry" for such people and have contempt for their theology. Your bias shines through, Gene.<BR/><BR/>I know a lot of folks who believe they are part of Israel. They don't fit into your ugly picture of them.<BR/><BR/>You mention there are some religious nuts among the Ephraimites. Yep, sure. There are also nuts among Messianics. And Orthodox. And Christians.<BR/><BR/>It's not British Israelism as much as you wish to paint it as such. The US, Britian, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, Wales, France, Holland, and Belgium are mentioned as possible settling places for the dispersed tribes, whom the book of James is addressed to.<BR/><BR/>One thing I find interesting in all this is the fact that Israel went into dispersion and never returned is not discussed. Surely someone, somewhere with some mixed bloodline is an Israelite.<BR/><BR/>Heck, we have folks from Ethiopia, Samaria, India, China, other parts of Africa, Britian, Persia, to name a few, who claim Israelite descent. Isn't it possible?<BR/><BR/>I differ with many of them, and perhaps you, Gene, by saying physical descent matters little. I mean, if we're grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, does it matter whether we're physical descendants of Jacob?<BR/><BR/>I thought we just finished reading that Messiah has given us both, Jacob-descendant and non-Jacob-descendant, equal access to God.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-71165323966997886712008-11-13T11:45:00.000-06:002008-11-13T11:45:00.000-06:00Todd,It is subjective. That's why I clarified it w...Todd,<BR/><BR/>It is subjective. That's why I clarified it was in that statement by using phrases like "I believe" and "more than likely".<BR/><BR/>Of course, I have no proof they are, and neither do they, necessarily. But it doesn't matter, because once a goy, a descendant of "Ephraim" or not, come to Yeshua and is lead to Torah observance, he has become/is becoming an Israelite.<BR/><BR/>This is really one of the main purposes of Mashiach, to return lost Israel to Torah - so all the goyim who are called <I>and</I> chosen to return to Torah (which are very few out of all the goyim - very different thing to do for goyim), it would make logical sense that they would be descendants of Ephraimites.<BR/><BR/>But anyone can join Israel, it is not limited, and it does not discriminate.A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-68309384425762710292008-11-13T11:27:00.000-06:002008-11-13T11:27:00.000-06:00"Some folks who love Messiah, love Torah, and love..."Some folks who love Messiah, love Torah, and love Israel, believe they are descendants of this northern nation Israel."<BR/><BR/>Judah, I really doubt that the overwhelming majority of them have any love for anything other than the land on which the Jews walk.<BR/><BR/>Your own brother Aaron, in an unusual show of solidarity, seemed to confirmed what I have experienced myself all along: "...Ephraimite elitism as Gene correcly points out very much does exist, and in probably the majority of those who call themselves Ephraimites."<BR/><BR/>"Some Messianics, like Gene, despise such folks."<BR/><BR/>Judah... I don't despise THEM - I more feel sorry for them because they feel utterly fail, just as their direct predecessor, British Israelism has failed. I do despise some of their doctrines, because I view them as destructive to the Body in general (and in some cases, plain anti-semitic).<BR/><BR/>"Gene wishes to paint Ephraimites as a fringe group of gentiles that wish to push Jews out of Israel."<BR/><BR/>Again, Aaron, your brother who probably knows a lot more about them then I do confirmed that this attitude DOES exist among NOT ALL, but a sizable portion of Ephraimites, and I quote:<BR/><BR/>"They are against converting Jews to xtianity or "Ephraimites" barging into the Land, shunning the Jewish people, and claiming it as their own, in a kind of Ephraimite elitism as Gene correcly points out very much DOES EXIST, and in probably the majority of those who call themselves Ephraimites."<BR/><BR/>Judah, you wrote: "<BR/>Before ending this post, I'd like to make it known there are Orthodox Jewish (non-Messianic) organizations doing research into where the northern nation migrated and settled after captivity. Such organizations are promoting the return of Ephraimites to Israel -- see BritAm.org."<BR/><BR/>Please, this place is run by Yair Davidiy, a promoter of British Israelism and a peddler of books to the gullible Americans. You don't believe it's British Israelism? Have you even seen that website before you gave us the link? Well, check out this article on the site: britam.org/bkjoseph.html<BR/><BR/>Britain = Ephraim <BR/>America = Menasseh<BR/><BR/>This stuff is so old and ridiculous, it's frankly laughable that ANYONE would believe in this garbage.<BR/><BR/>Oye, come quickly Yeshua!<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com