tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post2859037288290785835..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Weekly Bracha 28Judah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-8511876678065097492010-07-01T20:39:31.720-05:002010-07-01T20:39:31.720-05:00I did write a blog article to more fully express m...I did write a blog article to more fully express my questions and concerns about this conversation, but also to examine and question my own assumptions. I don't have all the answers, but I can be honest about that. <br /><br />Since these are my personal observations, I can't represent my congregation by posting this article on their blog. I created a new blog for the occasion. Read more at <a href="http://searchingforthelightonthepath.blogspot.com/2010/07/fractured-fellowship.html" rel="nofollow">Searching for the Light on the Path</a>.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66801966804139646962010-07-01T18:19:45.248-05:002010-07-01T18:19:45.248-05:00I see what you mean, Dan.
One response is that w...I see what you mean, Dan. <br /><br />One response is that while the assembly is indeed multi-national, there is nothing wrong with a Jewish-only section of that assembly. Then again, that starts sounding as if MJ is no different than, say, Korean Baptists, which is not what MJTI and friends are supposing.<br /><br />Somewhere in there, MJTI argues Jews are unique (woot) and an assembly for Jews alone is what was intended all along (fail). And it comes back, full circle, and we're left wondering whether there is indeed a multi-national assembly, or is it Israel assembly + nations assembly that BE/2 Church theology supposes.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-71230049768920773502010-07-01T16:28:01.892-05:002010-07-01T16:28:01.892-05:00Judah and James,
The bottom line here it is calle...Judah and James,<br /><br />The bottom line here it is called "Messianic Judaism." It means this is a Jewish organization promoting Jewish agenda and we cannot fault them for that. They have the right to reject Gentile within their midst just like the state of Israel who was and is a Jewish state holding the rights to reject non-Jewish Aliya.<br /><br />The problem here is the hypocricy of Kinzer and other who say that the ekklesia was presented by the Apostles as a "transnational" (which of course means "multi-cultural").<br /><br />It is amazing how they want to have the cake and eat it too.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-34132960742932928082010-07-01T16:12:22.886-05:002010-07-01T16:12:22.886-05:00No apology expected. I'm just stopping all the...No apology expected. I'm just stopping all the name-calling on this blog and these comments, no matter how true the other side thinks it is. Kind of sick of that crap, honestly.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-68317977433911161352010-07-01T16:07:02.301-05:002010-07-01T16:07:02.301-05:00Sorry Judah,
No apology. Discrimination is discri...Sorry Judah,<br /><br />No apology. Discrimination is discrimination, no matter how it is sugar coated.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22172877383765724962010-07-01T15:27:20.746-05:002010-07-01T15:27:20.746-05:00Dan, I consider the racist accusation slander, I w...Dan, I consider the racist accusation slander, I won't have it in these posts. I don't believe UMJC or MJTI is racist like the segregationists of the 1950s. <br /><br />James didn't use that analogy, admitting it was unfair.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-4150555408200777182010-07-01T13:11:58.536-05:002010-07-01T13:11:58.536-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-29006638358432289442010-07-01T09:01:15.124-05:002010-07-01T09:01:15.124-05:00I'm not going to argue with you anymore, Derek...I'm not going to argue with you anymore, Derek. We each are known by our fruits and your words have allowed me to taste yours. If I comment on this matter further, I'll blog about it.Jameshttp://shema-yisrael.org/blogspot/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-20485698381555969452010-07-01T05:43:24.304-05:002010-07-01T05:43:24.304-05:00James:
Implying that we are like the leaders who ...James:<br /><br />Implying that we are like the leaders who enforced a policy of segregation in American history?<br /><br />Shame on you.<br /><br />Derek Lemanderek4messiah.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02116000293798063018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-46250110994395837892010-06-30T19:15:24.150-05:002010-06-30T19:15:24.150-05:00Judah,
Interesting quote from Dr. Schiffman.
I th...Judah,<br /><br />Interesting quote from Dr. Schiffman.<br />I think though, any and every misswa/'mitzva' is just as important, i.e. shouldn't be neglected for "weightier matters", but maintained with the other problems fixed.<br />And actually, Shabath is one of the most weightier matters of Torah. Pick up sticks outside, as one man did in Moshe's day, and you could get stoned to death (in the context of that time), and we're not talking about smoking a lot of pot haha.<br /><br />I think the essence of what he is saying is very true. What he means certainly is true, but unfortunately many who make that argument go so far as to neglect the "less weightier" or supposedly "less weightier" matters of the Torah that they mention in their argument.<br /><br />Also, I think an element of improper understanding of "love". I know you've heard this, probably a million times before, but bear with me.<br />Benei Yisrael are supposed to love other benei Yisrael. That is the full extent of such a requirement. However, a general respect is to be given to everyone in general, besides certain/specific people, usually meaning anti-Semites and enemies to the Jewish people, but including others.<br /><br />Both love and general respect do not mean that people don't argue. I know most reading this probably know this, but I think it goes too far at times where its a subconscious thought that any disagreement automatically includes a dislike, hate, or anger. I think that is very much untrue, because if someone first doesn't care about someone else, why bother arguing? Of course, there are some people who would still bother arguing, but for others, it is based on the fact that they care for the specific people or group that they are arguing with. For those people, if they didn't care, they would just not say a word to begin with.<br /><br />I think everyone would agree, argument, in each each side's individual view, is for the purpose of convincing the other side so that they may come to a better understanding; so therefore for the purpose of the other sides' ultimate benefit.<br /><br />In fact, there is a halakha that I've studied in Ramba"m's Mishne Torah (not yet sure of where its root is in the Talmudh) that a Jew is permitted to correct another Jew until the point that the latter strikes the former, then is he exempt from the misswa of correcting his brother.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-56228048628741025262010-06-30T18:46:34.210-05:002010-06-30T18:46:34.210-05:00Derek,
No, I haven't yet heard it. Me and two...Derek,<br /><br />No, I haven't yet heard it. Me and two others were in an insane bash fest, which was stupid, so I apologize.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-58781036566280979482010-06-30T15:52:00.843-05:002010-06-30T15:52:00.843-05:00Well said, Judah. Thanks.Well said, Judah. Thanks.Jameshttp://shema-yisrael.org/blogspot/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-24537719072340219752010-06-30T12:53:13.555-05:002010-06-30T12:53:13.555-05:00I'd like to highlight something Dr. Schiffman ...I'd like to highlight something Dr. Schiffman <a href="http://drschiffman.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/real-observance/" rel="nofollow">said on his blog</a> that really resonated with me:<br /><br /><i>"People are more interested in issues that touch on their personal status in the Messianic Jewish world, or on particular religious requirements of that world. In a way this saddens me because issues of ethical behavior are where the rubber hits the road in Jewish life. Keeping Shabbat and Kashrut are great, and in fact, very important, but what good are they if I don’t honor my parents? How can I treat people like crap and claim to love God? Yeshua said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” We tend to go “yeah, yeah” when we hear instruction about loving one another, but I wonder how well we embrace the idea of loving one another."</i><br /><br />I'd say that's also true of these theologies we debate about here at the Kineti blog. <br /><br />Gentiles keeping God's commandments? Important issue, for sure, but what about loving one another?<br /><br />Gentiles as part of Israel [or commonwealth thereof]? Very important topic, but what about loving one another?<br /><br />These debates get too hot. Caught up in the heat of the moment, it disappears from our minds that the opponents we're debating are actually regular people who love the Lord.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-68690498049715334732010-06-30T12:37:05.626-05:002010-06-30T12:37:05.626-05:00Judah,
First I want to apologize for the outburst....Judah,<br />First I want to apologize for the outburst. It was uncalled for. Gene has the tendency to incite, it looks like he is incapable of conducting an exegetical discussion. I am still waithing for his explanation of "uniqueness."<br /><br />Secondly, I hear James and you loudly. We have to understand, as things stand today, that we can only defend our beliefs on the blogsphare.Dan benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70082125413714702872010-06-30T12:21:28.325-05:002010-06-30T12:21:28.325-05:00>> Does anybody remember when our primary fo...>> <i>Does anybody remember when our primary focus was to worship God and not to engage in controversies?</i><br /><br />Most Messianic congregations do, I think. At our congregation, for example, controversial matters might be discussed when appropriate, but are never the focal point. <br /><br />In real life, we're way more concerned about serving God, studying his word than these blog fights make us out to be. (Thank God!)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-72172026306326736722010-06-30T12:13:12.467-05:002010-06-30T12:13:12.467-05:00I agree that Messianic congregations can be as dif...I agree that Messianic congregations can be as different from one another as oranges and elephants, but I have the distinct impression that at least some Messianic Jewish congregations have a sign out front saying "No Gentiles Allowed!" I was going to say that this particular viewpoint promotes the creation of "separate but equal" congregations (Jewish and Gentile) similar to the days of segregation (remember when "colored people" had to use separate public restrooms and drinking fountains?), but would that be fair?<br /><br />Please don't think that I'm petitioning to come visit your congregations. I've gotten warmer responses at the local Reform and Chabad synagogues in my community than those I'm seeing in some of the responses here. I suppose I'll have to write a blog to express my thoughts and opinions more completely, but it seems like something in the "fellowship" part of the "Messianic" community has been broken.<br /><br />Does anybody remember when our primary focus was to worship God and not to engage in controversies?Jameshttp://shema-yisrael.org/blogspot/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-84798711123374679712010-06-30T10:45:55.817-05:002010-06-30T10:45:55.817-05:00I did call Derek on it, just privately.
Take care...I did call Derek on it, just privately.<br /><br />Take care.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-2492516820664302602010-06-30T10:36:27.867-05:002010-06-30T10:36:27.867-05:00Judah, nothing I said in the comment you deleted w...Judah, nothing I said in the comment you deleted was mudslinging, name-calling or even personal. Earlier in the discussion Derek described One-Law theology as "replacement theology," (Derek: "It is replacement theology, plain and simple.") but you didn't call him on it.<br /><br />But, your blog, your call. Have fun as well!Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-12125241184664898182010-06-30T10:28:34.904-05:002010-06-30T10:28:34.904-05:00Deleted. I guess you didn't take my warning se...Deleted. I guess you didn't take my warning seriously. Any more name calling, mud slinging will result in banning.<br /><br />Have fun!Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-54171566383423813302010-06-30T10:16:49.486-05:002010-06-30T10:16:49.486-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-38711814585767583672010-06-30T09:58:28.723-05:002010-06-30T09:58:28.723-05:00"I don't see my involvement with Messiani..."I don't see my involvement with Messianism/One Law/One Torah whatever label you want to put on me as separating myself from believers attending a Sunday keeping Christian church. "<br /><br />Well, I suppose we can then say those Jews who choose to worship in a NON-One-Law congregations which cater primarily to a Jewish community should not be seen as separating themselves from Gentile believers in "Sunday-keeping Christian churches" or from the Christians who are participating in "One-Law" communities either.<br /><br />Instead, we should recognize that we have different ministry goals, different culture, and differing interpretation of scripture. Our lack of physical proximity and cultural incompatibility, our differences in practice and beliefs should not distract us from greater spiritual unity in Messiah.Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-79868761699633779162010-06-29T18:31:52.297-05:002010-06-29T18:31:52.297-05:00I don't see my involvement with Messianism/One...I don't see my involvement with Messianism/One Law/One Torah whatever label you want to put on me as separating myself from believers attending a Sunday keeping Christian church. Some of the most passionate and faithful followers of Yeshua are traditional Christians, including my parents. Some Messianic Gentile groups have issues with "Christians" but they are drop dead wrong. Faith and devotion are in the heart. It's substance, not appearance.<br /><br />That said, traditional Christians are certainly welcome to worship with me and I don't doubt that I'm welcome to worship with them. You don't really have unity with a group if you say "We're united but just don't come into my house or place of worship...That's only for *us*".<br /><br />Of course, I wouldn't force my presence on anyone who doesn't want me to worship God with them. That is what's being said here, isn't it?Jameshttp://shema-yisrael.org/blogspot/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-13151412005495778552010-06-29T18:29:10.954-05:002010-06-29T18:29:10.954-05:00Zion,
don't hold your breath, I am still wait...Zion,<br /><br />don't hold your breath, I am still waiting for Gene to explain "uniqueness".......LOL!Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-77706674963793749812010-06-29T18:16:39.378-05:002010-06-29T18:16:39.378-05:00"If one lives in proximity of another is what..."If one lives in proximity of another is what you should have addressed."<br /><br />I have no problem with Christians (Gentiles) worshiping in churches, you do - this is because the One-Law movement is anti-Christianity (for the most part).Gene Shomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-14677622412634295962010-06-29T17:56:17.907-05:002010-06-29T17:56:17.907-05:00"If one analyzes your idea of equating unity ..."If one analyzes your idea of equating unity between Jewish and Gentile believers (or any believers for that matter) with physical proximity and identical worship experience a bit closer, you and I can't ever have that kind of unity you are talking about - I don't live where you live, nor do I worship the way you do."<br /><br />You created another diversion argument over long distance unity... lol, we were talking about a wife and a husband, they are not in Beijing and another in Brazil... <br /><br />If one lives in proximity of another is what you should have addressed.Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.com