tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post2101666702718537633..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Messianic Judaism: A purpose that angered manyJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-34606452948239284972010-07-27T22:55:42.716-05:002010-07-27T22:55:42.716-05:00Judah,
I just found this post. It is almost exac...Judah,<br /><br />I just found this post. It is almost exactly what I am trying to work with thru Am Echad. I'm a late-comer to the party, but I hope you'll let me join you.<br /><br />SueUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09975940286231624003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-37713382604438057172009-11-18T17:36:36.739-06:002009-11-18T17:36:36.739-06:00Sean,
Messianic Judaism is not accepted by the J...Sean, <br /><br />Messianic Judaism is not accepted by the Jewish world because Yeshua is Lord. Everything else is a smokescreen, including those 3 charges.<br /><br /><b>As long as Yeshua is Lord</b>, it wouldn't matter if we were 100% Jewish, more observant than the most pious Chassid, more zealous than the energetic Chabadnik. <b>As long as Yeshua is exalted</b>, the Jewish world will not accept us. Don't fool yourself otherwise.<br /><br />Read this, it will plant a single seed of good in you: <a href="http://judahgabriel.blogspot.com/2009/10/messianic-judaism-has-inferiority.html" rel="nofollow">Messianic Judaism has an inferiority complex</a>.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-6238967795752928312009-11-18T14:52:37.326-06:002009-11-18T14:52:37.326-06:00judah,
first off thanks for posting my comment.
...judah,<br /><br />first off thanks for posting my comment.<br /><br />yes, i am a gentile that is in the process of conversion to judaism and like most potential converts I am participating in synagogue life in preparation for my fully joining the Jewish people. this being said I am scrupulous in not blurring the lines between me as a gentile in the midst of the community, ie. not wearing a tallit or tefilin, not receiving or accepting aliahs for the torah reading, etc. I practice Judaism as a gentile in process toward conversion, not a gentile already under the Torah mantle.<br /><br />As to your comment:<br /><br /><b>Second, we disagree because of different visions. You, being of the MJTI persuasion, believe Messianic Judaism = Jews with Jesus and Torah. Gentiles need not apply <br /></b><br /><br />Our difference is on vision and the community that we seek to reach. <br /><br />My vision of Messianic Judaism is focused on drawing Jewish people to Torah and to Yeshua, their Messiah.<br /><br />Your vision appears to be to draw gentiles to Torah faithfulness.<br /><br />Sadly your approach conflicts with mine and I would say the broader vision of reaching what Paul calls the "fullness of Israel" in Romans 11. <br /><br />The greatest charges to defame Messianic Judaism in the larger Jewish world are:<br /><br />1) They are 90% gentile<br /><br />2) They receive hundreds of millions of dollars to convert Jews to Christianity.<br /><br />3) They are just Evangelical Christianity using Jewish symbols and liturgy to convert Jews.<br /><br />Though the 2nd one is spurious, #3 is sadly true for many "Messianic congregations".<br /><br />But #1 is fed by your approach. If you notice the Messiahship of Yeshua is a non-issue in the 3 above?<br /><br />Though I appreciate your passion, I see it detrimental to reaching Jews with the Jewish Messiah with your "Torah for all" approach, which will alienate most Jews.<br /><br />To your comment:<br /><br /><b>(After all, as you say, Messianic gentiles are just anti-semitic, supersessionist thieves of God's commandments dressed up in a tallit and shofar!)</b><br /><br />My point was specifically in reference to the "Two House" teaching which theorizes that Gentiles coming to Yeshua faith are "returning Jews"or "the lost tribes of Israel", this is the old British-Israelism heresy repackaged with tallit and shofar. <br /><br />There are valuable Messianic gentiles that have served and will continue to serve the Messianic Judaism movement, but they should serve as non-Jews within a Jewish community and world.sean emsliehttp://www.towardblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87911327546115796242009-11-18T10:25:08.538-06:002009-11-18T10:25:08.538-06:00Hi Sean.
First, I find your arguments terribly i...Hi Sean. <br /><br />First, I find your arguments terribly ironic - you're a gentile, right?<br /><br />Second, we disagree because of different visions. You, being of the MJTI persuasion, believe Messianic Judaism = Jews with Jesus and Torah. Gentiles need not apply (After all, as you say, Messianic gentiles are just anti-semitic, supersessionist thieves of God's commandments dressed up in a tallit and shofar!)<br /><br />Contrast this to our vision, what we know God is doing among Jews and gentiles, all of His people: <b>Messianic Judaism = all God's people returning to Israel- and Torah-centric faith in Yeshua.</b> <br /><br />This exalts God, <a href="http://judahgabriel.blogspot.com/2008/07/gentiles-and-sabbath.html" rel="nofollow">as Isaiah wrote</a>, <br /><br /><i>"And the gentiles who join themselves to Adonai, every one of them who keeps Shabbat and doesn't profane it, and holds fast to my covenant, I will bring them into my house on my holy mountain and make them happy and joyful; all they offer and sacrifice will be acceptable to me."</i><br /><br />God is glorified when even gentiles keep His commandments. Psalms and Isaiah state this explicitly. What doesn't glorify God is the ugly theology that says, "gentiles must never join themselves to God's commandments", and the theology that says, "God has 2 sub-peoples: gentiles and Jews, and we should have different churches for both." This does not follow the New Testament model, and serves only to create further division between the two.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89353905651524391492009-11-17T19:10:27.738-06:002009-11-17T19:10:27.738-06:00judah,
i appreciate your article and your passion...judah,<br /><br />i appreciate your article and your passion though we come into much disagreement.<br /><br />you say for example:<br /><br /><b><br />It is undeniable: go to any Messianic congregation – why are there so many gentiles? Why are they worshipping with Jews? Why are they keeping God’s commandments? Why are they loving Israel? Why do they love the Jewish people? Why are gentiles called to learn and practice and teach the Scriptures of Israel?<br /></b><br /><br />This is less about a great new work of G-d, especially gentiles keeping the G-d's commandments an example of confusion and confused teachings on Gentiles and Torah. The Torah is not generic divine commandments for whoever wants them but G-d's Torah given to Moshe for the Jewish People, the descendants of Jacob. Though Acts 15 calls gentile Christians to observe some Torah commands for table fellowship with Jews, the full weight of Torah observance and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism before trusting in Yeshua was rejected.<br /><br />Gentiles worshipping with Jews is ok, loving Israel is good, loving Jewish people is good, studying the Bible is great, but any kind of teaching that Gentiles should keep Torah or blur the line of Messianic Judaism into being Jews and Gentiles doing a smattering of Jewish stuff together and calling it Judaism is not glorifying G-d and helping to put Yeshua to open shame before the larger Jewish world.<br /><br /><b><br />It’s from God, folks. Yes, the Torah-for-Christians people. Yes, the two houses of Israel people. Yes, the young gentile man drawn to Messianic Judaism and the Jewish people. Yes, that gentile overflowing with joy in worshipping among Jews – it’s all from God.<br /></b><br /><br />I appreciate the concept of unity but their must be boundaries and the Torah-for-Christians and the Two House Movements are not fellow travellers but incorrect and Scripturally and sociologically wrong. The Two House Movement being a form of supersession and anti-Semitism dressed up with a tallit and shofar.<br /><br />G-d is glorified when Jews observe Torah, G-d is put to open shame when Gentiles usurp Israel's status as the bearers of the Torah by in essence stealing the Torah of Moshe given at Sinai and claim it as their own.sean emsliehttp://www.towardblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-69040771043251981482009-10-22T11:44:15.550-05:002009-10-22T11:44:15.550-05:00>>>Maybe I should start my own blog....
...>>>Maybe I should start my own blog....<br /><br />I would be a fan and appreciative reader, Dan. I always enjoy your Sabra-style zingers that hit the mark. : )<br /><br /><br />Shalom,<br /><br />Tandi<br /><br />SABRA(S) - (Heb.) Native-born Israeli(s). The word comes from the name of a cactus plant that is prickly on the outside and soft and tasty on the inside. The Israeli character is often said to resemble this fruit.Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-25101886324613576032009-10-19T17:10:37.111-05:002009-10-19T17:10:37.111-05:00Judah:
I agree in part with what you write here.
...Judah:<br /><br />I agree in part with what you write here.<br /><br />Part of what I have been saying is that non-Jews can enter MJ and Torah-groups for the wrong reasons. <br /><br />I have said time and again that I think Israel-loving Christians, sojourning Gentiles who take on some but not all Torah, and proselytes all have a place in Messianic Judaism. I expect MJ to have more non-Jews than other branches of Judaism (other branches of Judaism have more non-Jews than some let on).<br /><br />Blessings and peace.<br /><br />Derek Lemanderek4messiah.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02116000293798063018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-69650254586891140602009-10-19T10:27:51.408-05:002009-10-19T10:27:51.408-05:00@Kenneth,
Thank you for understanding the need to...@Kenneth,<br /><br />Thank you for understanding the need to be respectful. I don't mind anti-missionaries posting here, as long as it is not insulting or using covert conversion tactics. You are welcomed here accordingly.<br /><br />Shalom.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66848545700165795502009-10-19T10:24:02.035-05:002009-10-19T10:24:02.035-05:00>> "Maybe I should start a blog"
...>> "Maybe I should start a blog"<br /><br />Dan, you ought to. We need more voices this side of the aisle.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50700741550604103282009-10-19T09:32:29.735-05:002009-10-19T09:32:29.735-05:00Rick and Dan and Efrayim,
I opened the blog this ...Rick and Dan and Efrayim,<br /><br />I opened the blog this morning to see 16 comments. I shuddered, thinking it would be all angry comments telling me just how wrong I am. <br /><br />Instead, I find loads of support from you guys. Thank you! It is good to be fighting this battle with support from others.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62923264391374840382009-10-19T09:08:38.810-05:002009-10-19T09:08:38.810-05:00Joshua,
You're right. I apologize. I paraphra...Joshua,<br /><br />You're right. I apologize. I paraphrased, but shouldn't have used quotes. I'll update the post.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18650847651502579462009-10-18T16:39:09.345-05:002009-10-18T16:39:09.345-05:00So much for Yinon wanting a dialogue... When face...So much for Yinon wanting a dialogue... When faced with uncomfortable facts they shrink from discussion, and delete my posts..O, well....The true face of MJ UMJC style.....<br /><br />Maybe I should start my own blog....Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-58918648413094528892009-10-18T14:51:54.641-05:002009-10-18T14:51:54.641-05:00Dan, long time no talk. I was at your family museu...Dan, long time no talk. I was at your family museum today < grin > - the Rachel ben Zvi Center in Jerusalem.Rick Spurlockhttp://www.bereansonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-76556001041690796642009-10-18T13:53:25.885-05:002009-10-18T13:53:25.885-05:00Shalom Rick,
Thanks for your comments. Missed yo...Shalom Rick,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments. Missed your input...Great response to the "divine invitation" thing...Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-7795075354783804462009-10-18T11:09:45.660-05:002009-10-18T11:09:45.660-05:00Judah, well said. You have hit the nail on the hea...Judah, well said. You have hit the nail on the head - and restated what James stated in Acts 15. All these Gentiles are coming as a proof that HaShem is restoring the fallen Tent of David.<br /><br />It THAT not a mere "invitation" < grin >.<br /><br />I read some of the nastiness on other blogs and scratch my head at whether somethings should be called "kesher" or not for all the thinly veiled goy-disgust.Rick Spurlockhttp://www.bereansonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1587794188355855442009-10-18T04:31:34.838-05:002009-10-18T04:31:34.838-05:00Wow. I think I'm offended. :)
My site says, &...Wow. I think I'm offended. :)<br /><br />My site says, "that most involved in “evangelism” are sincere people who simply wish to serve their Creator and help their fellow man" and "Looking on the positive side I believe this attempt at correlating Sukkos with the Nazarene's birth represents an attempt at carefully observing the details of the text that I think is frankly is often lacking." <br /><br />It gets called hateful and axed, while this guy comes on much more aggressive and nothing....Oh well, can't win 'um all. :)<br /><br />I wouldn't be so quick to group me into your list of those who demonstrate your beliefs are making headway in the Jewish community. "Counter Missionaries" often feel that missionaries are a real and present danger, but that is selection bias, they wouldn't be involved if they didn't think it was important. The truth is I've known a lot more Messianic people who converted to Judaism than vice versa. My material is really just sharing my journey rather than a statement on the efficacy of the messianic movement in attracting Jews.<br /><br />Its late, I'm just rambling...Yirmeyahunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-7452819769860404482009-10-17T21:10:18.299-05:002009-10-17T21:10:18.299-05:00Judah, you misquoted me. Please revise. If you p...Judah, you misquoted me. Please revise. If you prefer to paraphrase my writing, please refrain from using quotation marks.Rabbi Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11246960741193063472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-91124087644227379862009-10-17T19:33:22.165-05:002009-10-17T19:33:22.165-05:00I realize that this blog is for discussing Messian...I realize that this blog is for discussing Messianic Judaism, and that I have not been respectful to you Judah and your readers because I have interrupted your discussions with my comments. <br /><br />I disagree with your beliefs, but I should be respectful anyway. I am sorry, and I won't comment here anymore. I also lied when I said some people liked some my ideas in my first posting. No Messianic Jews liked my ideas about Isaiah 53 being about Hezekiah or any of my other ideas.<br /><br />Kenneth GreiferKenneth Greifernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-90206520837889045282009-10-16T21:58:36.119-05:002009-10-16T21:58:36.119-05:00Judah,
I know why I frequent your blog. But it is...Judah,<br /><br />I know why I frequent your blog. But it is nice to hear you say out loud!<br /><br />Shabbat Shalom,<br /><br />EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-78867224088878685492009-10-16T19:18:04.860-05:002009-10-16T19:18:04.860-05:00Kenneth,
You are a living proof that we do not al...Kenneth,<br /><br />You are a living proof that we do not always succeed In converting the least uneducated Jewish people....<br /><br />Shabbat ShalomDan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1242215111189007632009-10-16T16:52:27.371-05:002009-10-16T16:52:27.371-05:00Have a good shabbat, Kenneth.Have a good shabbat, Kenneth.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-23370603810418763412009-10-16T16:43:06.743-05:002009-10-16T16:43:06.743-05:00Judah,
I never said Messianic Jews are dumb. I th...Judah,<br /><br />I never said Messianic Jews are dumb. I think they are normal intelligent people who get involved with your religion without understanding their own religion first. <br /><br />Just like it is easy to convert them, it is easy to convince uneducated but intelligent Christians to become Jewish if you wanted to.<br /><br />Kenneth GreiferKenneth Greifernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-19601243668550071552009-10-16T16:26:30.218-05:002009-10-16T16:26:30.218-05:00You know, it just occurred to me: Kenneth, Yirmeya...You know, it just occurred to me: Kenneth, Yirmeyahu, YesJewish, and the other 2 anti-missionaries that frequent this blog are proof that God is working among Jews. <br /><br />If God wasn't bringing Jews to Messiah, the anti-missionaries wouldn't have to peddle their wares around the web.<br /><br />Heh. Praise God, he's bringing his people Israel back to Messiah.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-82159086184000312212009-10-16T16:11:58.121-05:002009-10-16T16:11:58.121-05:00Shabbat shalom, Danny!Shabbat shalom, Danny!Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-25195829445141589032009-10-16T16:05:16.019-05:002009-10-16T16:05:16.019-05:00Judah,
You've rekindled something that I ha...Judah, <br /><br /> You've rekindled something that I have believed for many years, but I kind of let slip to the back burner recently...God is at work. And thats one of the greatest joys of all. Thanks for sharing bro. Shabbat Shalom.Danny A. Fluker Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15047249792485765465noreply@blogger.com