tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post2053237985812940574..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Judaism: Unlike all non-Christian religions?Judah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-67365505657714738622010-06-29T17:28:34.557-05:002010-06-29T17:28:34.557-05:00Bryan,
Thanks for offering your [belated] thought...Bryan,<br /><br />Thanks for offering your [belated] thoughts. I am now going to stew over yours. :-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-55541463499137396532010-06-29T08:46:06.636-05:002010-06-29T08:46:06.636-05:00I know this topic is ancient history in internet t...I know this topic is ancient history in internet time, but I have been stewing over this for awhile now and ready to enter my $0.02 into the discussion. Rather than focus on the discussion this post has generated, I would like to focus on Dr. Dauermann's original post and of his concepts expressed therein.<br /><br />First of all, to me, the Judaism of today, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox is very different from that of the time of Scripture. Even though the adherents of both are called Jews, I think a Jew of Scripture times would not easily recognize the Judaism of today and vice-a-versa.<br /><br />That being said, it seems to me that Dr. Dauermann is making a comparison that is just not valid. When he quotes Paul as saying "our religion," I do not think that means we need to make the same comparison today. To me the Judaism of Paul's day was basically that of Scripture. The Judaism of today is that of Talmud. This is not to argue right or wrong about what Judaism is today, just that it is very, very different that it was back then. I think the connection of an early follower of Yeshua to the Judaism of the day would be much stronger than it would be today, as the path of both Judaism and the early followers has diverged a great deal in the passing millennia.<br /><br />I would say if the Judaism of today is closely equal to the Judaism of Scripture, then Dr. Dauermann would have a point, but I personally do not think that to be the case and thus I do think that todays Judaism is more like any other non-Christian religion that it is not.<br /><br />The second thought I take away from Dr. Dauermann's post is an air of elitism for Judaism that I have trouble seeing, especially since, as Judah has pointed out, that it is a faith that rejects the Messiahship of Yeshua.<br /><br />While I hold a great deal of pride in my Jewish heritage, to me that does not translate into considering the faith of my recent fathers as really any different in any real way from other faiths that reject Yeshua. And in the end I come away agreeing with Judah that without Messiah any uniqueness that Judaism has really is of little meaning or difference.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00803858899316293127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-71256871510415339252010-06-27T12:02:47.537-05:002010-06-27T12:02:47.537-05:00Efrayim,
Instead of getting all personally offend...Efrayim,<br /><br />Instead of getting all personally offended because someone attacked your theology and argument methods, look at this situation rationally.<br /><br />If the two house theology is correct, it will survive the time among the ever-changing Messianic movement and all its splinters, and it will end in something fruitful. It will end in the event of <b><i>ten</i></b> goyim grasping hold of an <i>ish Yehudhi</i> (a Jewish man) and to be taken with "you" in the plural, meaning the whole Jewish people (i.e. not merely this one "Jewish man"). That is exactly how <b>Zekharyah 8:22</b> is written in the Hebrew text as opposed to an English translation where you won't find that plural "you" ("take us with <i>you</i> [plural]"), lest you be deceived and say this gives you a reason to make your own religion based on your Karaite Yeshu.<br /><br />There you have it. Now you see, I don't hate you, think you're evil. I just think you're a bit misled and could learn more. You got a Tanakh lesson from a Jew, now please consider Torah Judaism, see my blogs on the necessity of the Oral Torah for Torah observance. At least check out this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5RcprDYzOQ" rel="nofollow">video about 40 Biblical Verifications of Oral Torah</a>.<br /><br />Shavua` tov!<br />-AhronJewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-39913813155578691602010-06-26T02:43:00.116-05:002010-06-26T02:43:00.116-05:00As long as you keep hijacking every conversation o...As long as you keep hijacking every conversation on the blogs with your Micky Mouse 2 house doctrine, you can rest assure this conversation is not over. We will keep exposing you on every corner.....Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-83118633262309193882010-06-25T21:53:25.706-05:002010-06-25T21:53:25.706-05:00Well Dan I must say I'm sorry. I did not reali...Well Dan I must say I'm sorry. I did not realize you are such an unstable individual.<br /><br />But really, do think making up lies about me, or others like me is going to cause anyone to take you seriously?<br /><br />For your information, the Land does not belong to the Jews or anyone else. The Land belongs to YHWH (see the book called the bible)and He will have whomever He wants living there based on their obedience to Him.<br /><br />And once again you make incorrect assumptions about me. And you have no idea what my passport says, nor will I ever tell someone like you.<br /><br />You can call yourself a Jew if you want, but I'm fairly certain at this point that you have no idea what that really means.<br /><br />Take care. Try not to hurt yourself or others.<br /><br />This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-3772077157773616352010-06-25T19:21:22.773-05:002010-06-25T19:21:22.773-05:00Still don't know who the "ephramites"...Still don't know who the "ephramites" are, do you?+<br /><br />You want a sound argument? Here it is:Historically you have none. You couldn't come through the door with the armsrong stuff, so you are trying to get in through the window with Batya's stuff...And you feel sorry for me?<br /><br />FYI, I have an Israeli passport, where is yours? You guys deny my heritage, you want to take my land, as an Israeli to me you are just like the Hizzbulla.<br /><br />What are you guys going to do? Organize a flotila to come take over our land? Go home!!!Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-84813485175885600282010-06-25T18:48:16.479-05:002010-06-25T18:48:16.479-05:00Oh and by the way, nice counter-argument guys. Wel...Oh and by the way, nice counter-argument guys. Well thought out, plenty of substance, good use of scripture. Perhaps the three of you should get together and write a book that will put all us "two house" folks to shame.<br /><br />Shouldn't be too hard, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-79373235206494453942010-06-25T17:52:22.893-05:002010-06-25T17:52:22.893-05:00Unfortunately I have once again run into the arrog...Unfortunately I have once again run into the arrogant ignorance of those who trust in the flesh.<br /><br />Dan, I almost feel sorry for you, but not quite.<br /><br />Gene you are never a surprise. Such a shame.<br /><br />And as for you, I know more about the Talmud than you will allow yourself to think.<br /><br />Since it appears that none of you know what scripture says, I must be speaking to the air.<br /><br />TTFNAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-422085142124723662010-06-25T17:34:03.675-05:002010-06-25T17:34:03.675-05:00Efrayim said, "Perhaps you rely on the Talmud...Efrayim said, "<i>Perhaps you rely on the Talmud?</i>"<br /><br />To which Gene replied, "<i>Yeah, throw a little of standard Two-House anti-Judaism into the mix, for good measure.</i>"<br /><br />Its quite telling of the ignorance of such anti-Judaists, who think that the Talmud is intended to be the same, or on par with the Tanakh. If they'd taken any time to understand first what it is, and then learn some of it, they would realize that's absolutely not what it is nor is intended to be.<br /><br />You'll end up looking like an idiot when you talk smack about something you have no idea about.<br /><br />What's the verse that the anti-Judaists like to quote to their Christian counterparts? Oh yeah.. "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge", that's it... hmm, should take their own advice I guess...Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60336911519727615912010-06-25T16:28:11.695-05:002010-06-25T16:28:11.695-05:00"Perhaps you rely on the Talmud?"
Yeah,..."Perhaps you rely on the Talmud?"<br /><br />Yeah, throw a little of standard Two-House anti-Judaism into the mix, for good measure.<br /><br />"By your refusal to tell us we can conclude that all this is your invention, no? "<br /><br />I think it's much more comforting for Ephrayim to believe in Batya's fairy tales that tickle his ears, to eat them up. He's attracted to being a Jew/Israelite because he's not happy that he was born a Gentile by G-d's design. Although I am sure that he doesn't regret having missed 2000 years of pogroms and massacres that befell the Jews. Funny that Ephraimites didn't and do not want to claim their "special" status during times or in places when being Jewish sucked or sucks even today. What a joke!Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-37089587852430573762010-06-25T15:40:13.921-05:002010-06-25T15:40:13.921-05:00So, we can assume that you have no idea who Ephray...So, we can assume that you have no idea who Ephrayim is and you are just guessing, Right?<br /><br />By your refusal to tell us we can conclude that all this is your invention, no? Historically you have no proof, right?<br /><br />Say Hi to Batya Wooten, she does not have any idea either....LOL!Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-35261979051912006612010-06-25T13:23:10.061-05:002010-06-25T13:23:10.061-05:00It's in the bible Dan. If you want to start at...It's in the bible Dan. If you want to start at the division of Israel into the northern and southern tribes, read in Kings beginning at the end of Solomon's reign.<br /><br />If you want to find out what happened to the northern tribes (all 10 of them), keep reading Kings and then read Chronicles 1 & 2.<br /><br />If you want to know who Efrayim is and what YHWH plans for them, read Hoshea, Yirmeyahu, Yechezk'el, Amos, Z'kharyah and so on.<br /><br />If you want to see how the two houses begin to come back together, read Sha'ul's letter to the congregation in Ephesus, especially chapter two.<br /><br />If you are asking for documents outside of scripture, you will have to find them yourself as I am not interested in what a man or men have to say about it. <br /><br />YHWH will complete His Word and none can stay His hand. <br /><br />This isn't very complicated. I am a little surprised that you don't know these things. Perhaps you rely on the Talmud?<br /><br />EfrayimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50520146708478373782010-06-25T10:20:14.661-05:002010-06-25T10:20:14.661-05:00Anonymous,
So one more time: who are these "...Anonymous,<br /><br />So one more time: who are these "Ephrayim"? Can you identify them? Or maybe you can identify who is Judah? I guess you have all the documents to prove who is who?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-78420154331727500992010-06-25T10:11:36.252-05:002010-06-25T10:11:36.252-05:00Gene I have always been impressed with your willin...Gene I have always been impressed with your willingness to be open and honest about your confusion and misunderstanding regarding the two houses of Israel. <br /><br />And few have matched your dedication of effort to cast those who do see this truth in scripture as liars and thieves.<br /><br />Yet, somehow, I hold out hope for you, against all odds, that one day you will also leave your confusion behind and join the whole House of Israel.<br /><br />Shabbat Shalom<br /><br />EfrayimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-58489950176605676752010-06-25T07:48:10.123-05:002010-06-25T07:48:10.123-05:00"There isn't any confusion on that point...."There isn't any confusion on that point."<br /><br />LOLGene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81742791181393346612010-06-25T00:49:12.736-05:002010-06-25T00:49:12.736-05:00No, I said that now is the time that Efrayim is co...No, I said that now is the time that Efrayim is coming back to YHWH and knowing who they are in Messiah as the House of Israel.<br /><br />There isn't any confusion on that point.<br /><br />What is difficult to understand is the amount and type of animosity that is coming from some in the House of Judah towards returning Efrayim.<br /><br />Yet scripture says that there will be a time when Efrayim no longer envies Judah and Judah will no longer vex (aggravate) Efrayim.<br /><br />I am hoping that the day comes soon.<br /><br />EfrayimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60227735762988394392010-06-24T23:01:57.412-05:002010-06-24T23:01:57.412-05:00But didn't you say that Ephraim don't know...But didn't you say that Ephraim don't know yet who they are?<br /><br />Having the cake and eat it too? Or maybe just confusion?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-48106722267610499482010-06-24T14:35:11.670-05:002010-06-24T14:35:11.670-05:00Dan,
The answer to your question is quite involve...Dan,<br /><br />The answer to your question is quite involved, starting in Genesis and going all the way to Revelation, and can't be adequately covered in this small space.<br /><br />But if you were to follow Efrayim from his childhood in Egypt through all the prophetic references about him, and on to the vast multitude standing before the throne of YHWH at the end, you will begin to see the picture of how YHWH fills His House with the "fullness of the nations" by the stick of Yosef that is in the hand of Efrayim.<br /><br />It is a scriptural journey worth taking.<br /><br />EfrayimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-29587853058710580852010-06-24T14:23:46.808-05:002010-06-24T14:23:46.808-05:00anonymos,
And who are the "fulness of the na...anonymos,<br /><br />And who are the "fulness of the nations?"Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-42923376418510750702010-06-24T12:33:00.283-05:002010-06-24T12:33:00.283-05:00Dan,
You are misreading the scripture regarding &...Dan,<br /><br />You are misreading the scripture regarding "all Israel" being saved. It is not a national salvation that disregards the clear message of Messiah. <br /><br />There is no indication in scripture that at some point He would say, "all Jews are now saved without having to have trust in Me or be obedient to my Word."<br /><br />To believe otherwise goes against the revealed will of YHWH as demonstrated in His Son.<br /><br />And the "fullness of the nations" that must come to Messiah first, prior to "all Israel" being saved, are those of the House of Judah and the House of Israel with whom the covenant was made.<br /><br />Whether I am "Jewish" or not has nothing to do with this dialog.<br /><br />EfrayimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-78152698280714188882010-06-23T23:27:55.644-05:002010-06-23T23:27:55.644-05:00Mike,
What could be more anti-Semitic than saying...Mike,<br /><br />What could be more anti-Semitic than saying the vast majority of Jews are going to hell? Not only is that anti-Semitic, that's just outright contrary to the Torah, and to what Yehoshua` taught. Its such a plain truth, but not even one seems to consider it, because of being brainwashed by Christian theology which the majority of Messianics believe in.<br /><br />BTW, part II in my blogs on Oral Torah. Thanks for your recent comment.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-30206886203737085732010-06-23T20:22:15.711-05:002010-06-23T20:22:15.711-05:00Jewzilla - "Christian fluff aimed at wiping t...Jewzilla - "Christian fluff aimed at wiping the jews out"...<br /><br />Seriously, I am on a journey. I have contact with many different schools of thought in MJ, from one "extreme" to another. If you read many of like minded blogs, you see that few agree on any one thing.<br /><br />BUT - I cannot see how you draw some anti-Jew sentiment from any of them. I can understand being angry at one persons POV, or not agreeing in whole with the MJ movement.. which I am not really a part of I guess (Gray Area).. But to slam everyone the way you do to be anti-Jew seems really extreme.<br /><br />Perhaps you like to come off that way, but you wont win anyone over by insulting what they consider - in their hearts- to be truthful.<br /><br />Ive read your blog info.. i understand you like to argue. Its not that we are thin skinned, but the way you comment, you leave little room for dissent. Perhaps I am wrong. Any thoughts?<br /><br />MikeMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08561074565335343983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81046807586759562422010-06-23T01:24:03.759-05:002010-06-23T01:24:03.759-05:00And I don't want to hear any "faith with ...And I don't want to hear any "faith with action, Jews have action, Christians have faith, WE have both and are therefore possibly the only saved people. Maybe some Christians, but Jews aren't". That's asinine, ridiculous, sick, and just plain stupid on so many levels. Get real, none of this theology exists anywhere among authentic Torah. This is Christian fluff aimed at wiping the Jews out of the picture, and you're blindly buying into it.<br /><br />Yehoshua` said TORAH is life and that salvation is of/from the Jews. I just don't believe that people who name and claim belief in Yehoshua` believe any of that. I really don't.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-10112929295520749282010-06-23T01:17:11.509-05:002010-06-23T01:17:11.509-05:00Efrayim (and everyone else),
Yehoshua` says that ...Efrayim (and everyone else),<br /><br />Yehoshua` says that what one must do to have eternal life is keep the misswoth. Its clear, its true, and you either accept that or you don't. When people have no idea what "emuna" means and say it means the concept "faith" exactly, i.e. that one "believes J-man is ____", they are completely misunderstanding the concept of emuna.<br /><br />THE POINT: "Believing" in Yehoshua`, or better said, having emuna in him is in no way opposed or anything above and beyond adhering to the whole Torah (as is applicable to Israelites). These two are not only just unopposed to each other, but are actually one in the same thing.<br />This is where Messianic theology is severely handicapped by Christian theology, and people can't seem to get out of the kooky mindset about a mere belief alone being a source of eternal life. PLUS ITS AGAINST WHAT YEHOSHUA` SAID. Ayayay, does anyone get it yet? Its REALLY simple.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-32139937061390601272010-06-22T23:07:14.908-05:002010-06-22T23:07:14.908-05:00Anonymous,
Rom. 11:26: "and thus all Israel ...Anonymous,<br /><br />Rom. 11:26: "and thus all Israel will be saved..."<br />It does not say: "All the individuals of israel will be saved." Get my drift?<br /><br />BTW, are you Jewish?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.com