tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post1440451705811323088..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Sweet Forbidden Jew-Gentile Love Makin’Judah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-32557089940528298722010-12-25T11:22:11.408-06:002010-12-25T11:22:11.408-06:00"It's OK for a Jew (except for cohanim/pr..."It's OK for a Jew (except for cohanim/priests) to marry a Gentile (i.e. a non-Jewish, non-Israelite person), provided she/he converted to Judaism under the supervision of recognized Jewish authorities."<br /><br />Could you give me a reference of where this is found in the Bible? I haven't found it.<br /><br />Also, you didn't answer my question about a Jew (descendent of Judah) marrying a non-Jewish Israelite (descendent of one of the other 11 tribes.) It is irrelevent what Mormons believe, I'm more interested in what YOU believe.David Messerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825478896935570268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-91340950438587017462010-12-24T13:51:02.077-06:002010-12-24T13:51:02.077-06:00"...non-jewish Israelite..."
David, wit..."...non-jewish Israelite..."<br /><br />David, with all due respect, that's an oxymoronic statement found only in the Two-House faith (well, the Mormon faith and British Israelism teaches that as well). <br /><br />"May I assume that you and I agree that it would be OK for a Jew to marry a non-jewish Israelite if there was some way to determine the geneology of the latter?"<br /><br />It's OK for a Jew (except for cohanim/priests) to marry a Gentile (i.e. a non-Jewish, non-Israelite person), provided she/he converted to Judaism under the supervision of recognized Jewish authorities. That's the Jewish Law. Jewish authorities sometimes have to look closely at genealogies of those claiming Jewish halachic ancestry (through one's Jewish mother, like Yeshua himself), but they require hard documented proof of descent. If that proof is not available or if there is even a slightest doubt, a person in question is always required to undergo some type of conversion (there are different levels for different situations).Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-55503414917454102022010-12-24T00:26:20.030-06:002010-12-24T00:26:20.030-06:00@Gene - I have met many people who use the terms &...@Gene - I have met many people who use the terms "Jew" and "Israelite" interchangably.<br /><br />If I offended, please forgive me.<br /><br />May I assume that you and I agree that it would be OK for a Jew to marry a non-jewish Israelite if there was some way to determine the geneology of the latter?David Messerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825478896935570268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-19288039640905439972010-12-23T16:09:03.191-06:002010-12-23T16:09:03.191-06:00"The Kingdom of Judah (later called the Jews)..."The Kingdom of Judah (later called the Jews) was never all of Israel. They have had 2500 years to spin it that way though so almost everyone believes it." <br /><br />David, your words are a showcase of Two-House historical ignorance as well as ill attitude toward the Jewish people as some supposed supplanters bent on denying the "Israelite" identity to the imaginary "Lost Tribes" of Batya Wooten.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70223605826716570082010-12-23T12:35:10.646-06:002010-12-23T12:35:10.646-06:00@Gene - it is hardly "replacement theology&qu...@Gene - it is hardly "replacement theology" - nobody is being replaced - it is "inclusion theology." The Kingdom of Judah (later called the Jews) was never all of Israel. They have had 2500 years to spin it that way though so almost everyone believes it.<br /><br />Here are a couple of Bible verses:<br /><br />Ephesians 3:6 (New American Standard Bible)<br /> "to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,"<br /><br />Galatians 3:28<br /> "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."<br /><br />BTW, are you aware that you are forbidden to believe rumors by the Talmud? If you wish to critisize the so-called "Two-House Movement" you should study both sides. I recommend "http://www.tnnonline.net/two-housenews/judah/ee-ce/index.html" for some light reading.<br /><br />God Bless.David Messerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825478896935570268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89953193391953183982010-12-19T14:29:17.144-06:002010-12-19T14:29:17.144-06:00Oh, just saw your blog, David. No wonder you belie...Oh, just saw your blog, David. No wonder you believe that Gentiles are "Israelites" - after all, you're a "Two-House-r", and that belief is built-in in the Batya faith.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-90751804771526034512010-12-19T14:22:34.257-06:002010-12-19T14:22:34.257-06:00"there is no problem with intermarriage becau..."there is no problem with intermarriage because it isn't really intermarriage -- it is one Israelite marrying another."<br /><br />Show me in the Bible where Gentiles who believe in Jesus are ever referred to as "Israelites" or spoken of as "Israel"? Replacement theology teaches that Christians are now "Israel", that the church is now "New Israel." It's almost classic!Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-4269985280029155962010-12-18T17:56:19.856-06:002010-12-18T17:56:19.856-06:00I think the unspoken assumption here is that Belie...I think the unspoken assumption here is that Believing Christians are not part of Israel. Therefore they are pagans and the commandment not to intermarry applies.<br /><br />If, however, Christians are in fact grafted in to the Commenwealth of Israel, and are therefore fellow heirs with the Jews, then there is no problem with intermarriage because it isn't really intermarriage -- it is one Israelite marrying another.David Messerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825478896935570268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-46753930335485082082010-12-14T14:44:37.777-06:002010-12-14T14:44:37.777-06:00"later Jewish interpretation that says that J..."later Jewish interpretation that says that Jews aren't allowed to marry non-ethnic Jews."<br /><br />Ignorant statement. Jews accept and marry Gentile/not-ethnically Jewish converts to Judaism - ALL THE TIME, historically and today. There's no systemic built-in racism/xenophobia in Judaism, and even if some individuals display it (as does just about every single person on this planet, to a degree) it's not part of Judaism which permits marriage to Gentiles converts for all Jews (except for priests).<br /><br />"A big reason why Israel went into exile was because they were so into themselves, and weren't concerned with fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant, which was to incorporate all nations"<br /><br />Another ignorant and also anti-semitic statement. Show me from scripture where "not incorporating all nations" (whatever that means!!!) is ever cited as reason for exile? The reasons for the exile are many, chief among them profaning G-d's name by not keeping the Torah.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-41586953994060537142010-12-14T12:19:10.464-06:002010-12-14T12:19:10.464-06:00Anonymous posted this comment, but to the a differ...Anonymous posted this comment, but to the a different post. Adding it here:<br /><br />---<br /><br />so what do you have to say about the fact that the founder of the Jewish faith, Moses, was married to a Cushite (she was black) woman? also, you even admit that it's the later Jewish interpretation that says that Jews aren't allowed to marry non-ethnic Jews. the Scripture doesn't actually say that. it says not to marry PAGANS. a big reason why Israel went into exile was because they were so into themselves, and weren't concerned with fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant, which was to incorporate all nations (Gen 15).Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-15461328138561592582010-12-11T20:22:36.571-06:002010-12-11T20:22:36.571-06:00BS"D - It may all seem sweet until your kids ...BS"D - It may all seem sweet until your kids grow up and realize what a mess you've left them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-71509851361923285902010-12-09T03:30:58.693-06:002010-12-09T03:30:58.693-06:00"I can't speak to the Jews to choose to t..."<i>I can't speak to the Jews to choose to toss their identity or heritage aside like a pile of old clothes. It has always been my heartfelt desire that my children continue to not just be Jewish halachically but to live as Jews. They've shown various degrees of pursuing this so far, but I can only hope and pray for more as time progresses.</i>"<br /><br />B"H, James, beautiful.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-71588304167197612122010-12-08T14:36:29.477-06:002010-12-08T14:36:29.477-06:00Thank you Judah for posting on this important issu...Thank you Judah for posting on this important issue.<br /><br />I think to treat inter-marriage exactly as Orthodox or Coservative Judaism do would not be wise for the Messianic Jewish community.<br /><br />The question is whether or not the children are raised as Jews (as you brought up). I think the whole thing is a mixed bag and depends on the couple. <br /><br />I know you would not likely agree, but I feel the biggest threat of assimilation in our movement is not loss of Jews to Judaism but loss of Jewish distinction based in Torah due to Gentile assimilation into Judaism. <br /><br />In any event, I have no desire to argue that here. I only bring it up to say that we are more likely to keep it "Jewish"-even controversially so!<br /><br />Our movement is actually a haven for many inter-married couples and children of inter-marriage (I am one of those children). As long as we are doing our part to raise every ethnically "half-Jew" as a Jew, three generations down the line we'll be back to more "full-Jews"!<br /><br />I wouldn't throw a big fit over it, but our movement does have a role to play in Jewish survival, and I think a particularly positive one. All of us have different ideas about how to do it, and those who are most afraid of inter-arriage are certainly not as encouraged by us as we are!Benjamin Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10750930640815820995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-46186733736768623412010-12-08T12:47:05.939-06:002010-12-08T12:47:05.939-06:00I just wanted to let everyone know that I've p...I just wanted to let everyone know that I've posted the second article in this series on my blog just now: <a href="http://searchingforthelightonthepath.blogspot.com/2010/12/but-will-children-be-jewish.html" rel="nofollow">But Will the Children be Jewish?</a> Gene's already commented. Who else wants to join in?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-74715983946044683082010-12-08T10:17:36.748-06:002010-12-08T10:17:36.748-06:00"God is my Judge for good or for ill. My soul..."God is my Judge for good or for ill. My soul in in His hands and if I have sinned, then His will be done with my life and my being."<br /><br />May we all share in this sentiment when it comes to our own lives. Thanks friend.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62285141566071306972010-12-08T10:12:08.500-06:002010-12-08T10:12:08.500-06:00I can't speak to the Jews to choose to toss th...I can't speak to the Jews to choose to toss their identity or heritage aside like a pile of old clothes. It has always been my heartfelt desire that my children continue to not just be Jewish halachically but to live as Jews. They've shown various degrees of pursuing this so far, but I can only hope and pray for more as time progresses.<br /><br />At the same time, I can't go around beating myself up (or letting others beat me up) for being a Gentile who married a Jew. I've already <a href="http://searchingforthelightonthepath.blogspot.com/2010/12/unequal-yoke.html" rel="nofollow">outlined the history of my relationship</a> with my wife, so I won't rehash it. I, and others like me, can only move forward as husbands, fathers, and grandfathers doing our admittedly flawed best to serve the will of God.<br /><br />God is my Judge for good or for ill. My soul in in His hands and if I have sinned, then His will be done with my life and my being.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-2985235297526827782010-12-08T09:32:03.422-06:002010-12-08T09:32:03.422-06:00"These aren't exact circumstances that co..."These aren't exact circumstances that could happen to day, but it is an illustration that a Jew could "marry out", live a life in a foreign land disguised as an Egyptian, and still be bound to God."<br /><br />Yes, G-d miraculously preserves Jewish people even as others try to destroy them. I can testify to that as a Jew born in Ukraine (country that gave birth to "pogroms"). The difference is that Joseph never lost his devotion to G-d of Israel as a Jew even while OTHERS have tried to assimilate him. He did't choose to intermarry (assuming that Asenath was not a convert or a Jewess). He was "disguised" - and that's the key word. The same, sadly, cannot be said of many Jews today who assimilate and intermarry (or their parents did) quite willingly.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-68152936537555219832010-12-08T09:02:30.083-06:002010-12-08T09:02:30.083-06:00There's a lot we don't know about the rela...There's a lot we don't know about the relationship between Joseph and Asenath. Certainly, once she saw he was circumcised, the cat would be out of the bag, so to speak. What did they talk about? How did they relate to each other? Did she continue to worship the Egyptian gods or did Joseph "convert" her to Judaism?<br /><br />The fact remains that a Jewish Joseph was given an alternate identity as an Egyptian lord, married an Egyptian noblewoman, had children with her in Egypt, and lived and died in Egypt...and yet remained continually devoted to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These aren't exact circumstances that could happen to day, but it is an illustration that a Jew could "marry out", live a life in a foreign land disguised as an Egyptian, and still be bound to God.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22956735903836707002010-12-08T07:51:40.580-06:002010-12-08T07:51:40.580-06:00"I didn't think it was quite that straigh..."I didn't think it was quite that straightforward, Gene. Christians have a tendency to read the Bible in a linear fashion, but I thought I recalled something that said Judaism believes the Patriarchs were flawless in their Torah observance."<br /><br />James, it IS NOT as straightforward as you may have thought. Some sages have held a view that Asenath was actually the daughter of Joseph's sister Dinah born of rape by Shechem (and adopted by Potipherah), therefore not a convert but an Israelite. Another tradition holds that Asenath fully converted to Judaism before she married Joseph (Joseph, being the man of G-d and prophet that he was, persuaded her about the G-d of Israel - may be even while still a slave in Potipherah house!).Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-37560040665511768522010-12-08T07:48:05.409-06:002010-12-08T07:48:05.409-06:00I realize that someone who is Christian/Messianic ...I realize that someone who is Christian/Messianic might say "well my beliefs do align with Tora". But this is only true in that person's personal interpretation of Tora, or their misguided view based on "NT" texts.<br /><br />I believe it not to be intentionally done by most people, but the fact is that it is very arrogant when people think they can re-interpret the Tora or any of the Tanakh in a way foreign to the tradition of interpretation (which is not just a tradition but is logical, true, and based on truly understanding the Hebrew language); that tradition which stems directly from the final 3 Prophets, whose students and 'descendants' were the Sages.<br /><br />Christianity and Islam deviate from this in very major ways. Even some elements of modern-day 'orthodox' Judaism do the same. Someone cannot be stagnant and not change according to the truth. One's family, religious community, and one's own laziness are all things which inhibit someone from being intellectually honest with themselves and change according to the truth which is found in the Tora, the whole Tanakh, and the rulings of the Kings, Prophets, and Sages of Israel throughout the ages whom we are to adhere to, according to the command in the written Tora.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50690636851909759192010-12-08T07:38:40.213-06:002010-12-08T07:38:40.213-06:00James, you're not just a regular Christian, I ...James, you're not just a regular Christian, I don't think. Christianity is a religion, a system based on belief that has a core set of doctrines and beliefs, as do all religions. But some of those core beliefs are flawed and are not in line according to Tora. There are Christians who, because of an emerging sense inside of them, begin to differ from normative Christian doctrine. Christians/Messianics with an affinity to Tora and the Jewish people should follow through and eventually discard every belief and deed which is foreign to the Tora. Messianics seem to me to be those who are further in the process, than a regular church-going Christian.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-68935516090873268212010-12-08T06:51:33.574-06:002010-12-08T06:51:33.574-06:00Right, and the written Torah was not yet given to ...<i>Right, and the written Torah was not yet given to Israel (that's why Abraham, for example, could marry his sister, something later forbidden in Torah), and the Jewish nation was yet to appoint its leaders and judges. But I supposed everyone knows that.</i><br /><br />I didn't think it was quite that straightforward, Gene. Christians have a tendency to read the Bible in a linear fashion, but I thought I recalled something that said Judaism believes the Patriarchs were flawless in their Torah observance. One example is the beginning of <b>Genesis 18</b>, when Abraham served a meal to his three visitors. The plain meaning of the text indicates that he served meat and milk together, but the sages interpret this passage to say that they were two separate servings because Abraham wouldn't have violated the Torah restriction.<br /><br />Of course, I could be wrong.<br /><br /><i>We are truly living in dark times, and have been, since Judaism and the Jewish people were subject to the unrighteous nations and their unrighteous religions which include Christianity and Islam.</i><br /><br />As a non-Jewish believer (i.e. a Christian and therefore unrighteous), that doesn't bode well for me, does it, Jewzilla?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-38397437530207716252010-12-08T05:32:08.267-06:002010-12-08T05:32:08.267-06:00In continuation...
What is of concern is whether ...In continuation...<br /><br />What is of concern is whether of not people adhere to what the Creator requires of them. All the world must believe that the Creator is One, and no one may worship or pray to another - that is the main and primary concept which is so important.<br /><br />I don't believe Christianity, Islam, or any other religion of the nations accurately provides a true path based on the universal commands of Torah that are applicable to all. We are truly living in dark times, and have been, since Judaism and the Jewish people were subject to the unrighteous nations and their unrighteous religions which include Christianity and Islam.<br /><br />Things are changing with the appearance of Jewish sovereignty and power in the world.<br />When Jews intermix with the nations who do not share these ideas, heritage, tradition of Tora, etc, it may take a One-God-believing-Jew and make him a Christian or atheist, or just some average secular person on the street. This will annul his place in the next world, his eternal life, because he may not believe in the One Creator, or not believe solely in Him, or live to do His will, or he may just not care about any such ideals whatsoever.<br />If the non-Jew being intermarried with cares about God and Tora in at least some way, it is a little different story. It would take looking at such things case by case to determine just how good or bad such things are. It can't be generalized. But what can and should be emphasized, and was even emphasized in the Tanakh, is Jews marrying Jews. `Ezra rent his clothes at Jews marrying non-Jews in the land of Israel. The Jews who did such put their gentile wives away and did a serious and stern repentance for their sin.<br /><br />This obviously poses a huge problem to Tora, righteousness, and unique goal of the Jewish people in this world. I hope you agree with this, and honestly, I don't see how you can't, being someone who sincerely tries to serve the Creator and knows some about His commands.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-25134781827695679362010-12-08T05:31:00.553-06:002010-12-08T05:31:00.553-06:00Judah, interesting blog indeed.
I think the most ...Judah, interesting blog indeed.<br /><br />I think the most important thing is that people are seeking HaShem entirely.<br /><br />I really have come to the huge realization of something both through logic based on my unshakable belief in the Tora, and what I believe to be divine assistance and guidance through my personal/spiritual connection and relationship with the Creator.<br />Via these things, the realization I came to, can be summed up in: <i>Judaism contains an ancient, ancient masora (tradition) which runs right through the Prophets, back to Dawidh, back to Shmuel, Yahoshua` bin Nun, and to Moshe. However, Judaism as it is today, has deviated from the Tora of the Sages (to varying degrees depending on form of modern-day 'Orthodox' Judaism), the Sages who were first headed by the final three Prophets (Zakharya, Malakhi, and Hhagai).</i><br /><br />I was just studying Mishne Tora with a friend, and we came across a section in the text which indicated a certain gazera (legal enactment) that Dawidh and his Beith Din enacted. Another place in 'rabbinic' literature mentions the Prophet Malakhi, how when he was alive and a member of the Sanhedrin, his prophetic awareness made him able to render halakhic judgments. Halakha is legal, it is logical, having to do with details of Tora observance. Spirituality is not to be separated from such, because prophecy and the Tora are intertwined and go together. Moshe was the greatest of all prophets, and the revealer of the Tora in much practical and logical detail.<br /><br />I don't believe that offshoot religions, largely adhered to by people who are not very aware of authentic Judaism (some religious Jews are not even so aware of authentic Judaism), are religions that anyone should hold on to.<br /><br />My main problem with Christianity and different Messianic strains, is that many or most place emphasis on worshiping and praying to someone they hold to be God, yet God's son, yet a unified entity with God, or something along these lines. Even 'Kabbalah' today is often heretical and includes forms of `avodha zara (idolatry, foreign worship), because it may include ideas of pantheism, or that the Creator is in part, or in some way corporeal. Such is not true, and such an idea is not found nor reinforced in [authentic] texts and traditions of the Sages.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22241775083640906462010-12-07T22:54:40.631-06:002010-12-07T22:54:40.631-06:00"Right that is exactly what Joseph did with A..."Right that is exactly what Joseph did with Asnat...."<br /><br />Right, and the written Torah was not yet given to Israel (that's why Abraham, for example, could marry his sister, something later forbidden in Torah), and the Jewish nation was yet to appoint its leaders and judges. But I supposed everyone knows that.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com