tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post102331304641162274..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Saved by Grace - Aaron Eby’s Boundary Stones, Part 1Judah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-28035755637817618342009-04-09T09:39:00.000-05:002009-04-09T09:39:00.000-05:00Ah, I understand what you mean now, thanks.The cov...Ah, I understand what you mean now, thanks.<BR/><BR/>The covenants of God is an interesting topic. I want to write a blog post on sometime. <BR/><BR/>For example, there isn't 1 "old covenant". There was the Adamic covenant, the Noahide covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, the Davidic covenant, for example. Usually when Christians refer to the old covenant, they're speaking of the Mosaic, usually in an effort abolish it in some way.<BR/><BR/>Another interesting note is that new covenents never abolish the old covenant. For example, the God's covenant with Noah -- that He would never again destroy the earth with flooding -- wasn't abolished when the next covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, came around. Likewise, the Davidic and Mosaic covenants didn't abolish the Abrahamic covenant where God promised Abraham his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky.<BR/><BR/>Yet another interesting bit is that the New Covenant isn't here yet. Or rather, it's partially here, but it's by no means fully here. Jeremiah 31 describes the terms and conditions and effects of the new covenant, and a great number of those things have yet to occur.<BR/><BR/>And yet another interesting bit is that God's covenants are almost always with Israel or progenitors of Israel. For example, even the New Covenant described in Jeremiah 31 is a covenant between God and the 2 houses of Israel.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62691495967755034152009-04-08T18:49:00.000-05:002009-04-08T18:49:00.000-05:00Judah,I was referring to Old and New Covenant, whi...Judah,<BR/><BR/>I was referring to Old and New Covenant, which isn't the same delineation as Old and New Testament. The New Covenant went into effect at the death of Jesus (Hebrews 8 and 9). Jesus lived and taught under the Old Covenant with a view to the Covenant to come at His death.<BR/><BR/>GaryGary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-32741950728709426792009-04-08T10:55:00.000-05:002009-04-08T10:55:00.000-05:00Gary, fair enough.Regarding the dividing of Script...Gary, fair enough.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the dividing of Scripture, I deliberately used mostly New Testament Scriptures in support of the believe that God's commandments are still relevant and good and holy. I don't believe that the Old Testament has passed away, been abolished, nor even is entirely fulfilled (yet).<BR/><BR/>We probably disagree on those points. Clarity is better than agreement, and I think it's clear where we both stand.<BR/><BR/>I hope you comment on the next part of the Boundary Stones review. Eby talks about some stuff that I think you'll actually agree with.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-71380154464919338102009-04-07T19:30:00.000-05:002009-04-07T19:30:00.000-05:00Judah,Thanks for the response, I found the link i...Judah,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the response, I found the link interesting. They seem to be equating atonement with forgiveness.<BR/><BR/>You asked a question and I provided an answer. Actually I have considered the whole of scripture. I also choose to rightly divide scripture between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-6318770206451231712009-04-07T09:58:00.000-05:002009-04-07T09:58:00.000-05:00You're right it's what's in the Bible that counts....You're right it's what's in the Bible that counts. That's why I think all of Scripture, including the Messiah and the apostles, upheld the Torah. Messiah in his fundamentals of the faith teaching in Matthew 5, James 1 and 2, 1 John, Revelation, Isaiah, Psalms, to name a few. Rather than take a handful of choice quotes from Paul that seem to suggest he's at odds with Messiah, it's better to read the whole of Scripture and fit Paul within that context.<BR/><BR/>It is disturbing that some Christians base such an upheaving theology on a few sentences from 1 disciple, interpreted in such a way as to make Paul contrary to Messiah and the rest of Scripture.<BR/><BR/>Look back in Acts. The disciples came to Paul and said, "some people are saying you're telling folks to stray from the Law. Is it true?" His response was keeping the Law, taking a Nazirite vow with other men in the Temple in front of the whole assembly, in order that "this rumor be put to rest." I think that speaks loudly of where Paul was really at with the Law.<BR/><BR/>Gary, you asked,<BR/><BR/><I>"Am I to understand that you don't know this to be the direct belief of any Christian denomination?"</I><BR/><BR/>Gary, in the post, I said that <I>some Christians suggest these heroes of the faith were forgiven through the works of the Law, including sacrifices.</I> Please note I did not say "all Christians".<BR/><BR/>That said, here's an example of a Protestant Christian organization that comes right out and says the Old Testament people received <A HREF="http://www.gotquestions.org/animal-sacrifices.html" REL="nofollow">forgiveness of sin through animal sacrifices</A>.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62443178915481989422009-04-07T05:32:00.000-05:002009-04-07T05:32:00.000-05:00Judah,Well sure I am interested, else I wouldn't h...Judah,<BR/><BR/>Well sure I am interested, else I wouldn't have asked. :) Am I to understand that you don't know this to be the direct belief of any Christian denomination, but what you interpreted indirectly? Again, the reason I ask is that it is contrary to the clear teaching in Hebrews.<BR/><BR/><BR/>My view of the purpose of the Law is irrelevant; it's what the Bible says that counts.<BR/><BR/>It is spelled out clearly in Romans 3:19-20, 4:15, 5:20-21; Gal 3:24.Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-24640500405935004632009-04-06T12:56:00.000-05:002009-04-06T12:56:00.000-05:00Gary,I usually hear it disguised as other argument...Gary,<BR/><BR/>I usually hear it disguised as other arguments. I can give you an example if you're interested.<BR/><BR/>In your view, what's the purpose of the Law, Gary?Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-88910072069918133252009-04-03T20:47:00.000-05:002009-04-03T20:47:00.000-05:00Judah,I have started to comment on this post sever...Judah,<BR/><BR/>I have started to comment on this post several times, but I keep getting stuck at a particular sentence.<BR/><BR/><I>"A common response from some Christians is that these great men of the past gained forgiveness through animal sacrifices in the Tabernacle and obedience to commandments in the Law."</I><BR/><BR/>It runs so contrary to what I believe, that I find myself wondering which denomination believes that. I must admit I don't know what all the Christian denominations believe, so I would like to look into it a little deeper and find out why they believe that. My first thought was the Catholics, but I wasn't sure...could you point me in the right direction?<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>GaryGary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-65237006533750027602009-04-01T16:37:00.000-05:002009-04-01T16:37:00.000-05:00Hey Brian.I want to summarize your post. I don'...Hey Brian.<BR/><BR/>I want to summarize your post. I don't mean this as an insult. Here we go:<BR/><BR/>1. I want to worship God right, "in spirit & truth"...<BR/><BR/>2. ...and because Messiah made ceremonial parts of the Law redundant....<BR/><BR/>3. ...following the ceremonial parts of the Law may be unacceptable worship.<BR/><BR/>Is this what you're saying?Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16140414110642018562009-04-01T15:36:00.000-05:002009-04-01T15:36:00.000-05:00Efrayim,The point is not "How little can I obey to...Efrayim,<BR/><BR/>The point is not "How little can I obey to still be saved" - but "how can I worship the Lord acceptably in Spirit and in truth"? If ceremonial observances have been subsumed in the fulfillment of the Messiah's work for all believers -then we risk offering unacceptable worship to insist on continuing to offer sacrifices for sins. This is the most extreme example, but I think that you make a sweeping judgment on Christians, here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-73942943547690704552009-03-30T10:51:00.000-05:002009-03-30T10:51:00.000-05:00Here is an interesting quote from James Trimm's bl...Here is an interesting quote from James Trimm's blog:<BR/><BR/>"Yeshua was teaching CHESED, he was teaching Chassidism and he was teaching the values of Antigones of Soko. He was teaching us that we should not keep Torah as one wishing to earn something, but as one who has a sincere heart and inner desire to serve YHWH out of sincere love and respect for our Father."<BR/><BR/>"In fact the ironic thing is that by this measure it is Christendom which is hypocritical. Talk to a Christian about Torah Observance and invariably they will respond that they do not have to keep Torah to be saved, and therefore they do not need to keep Torah. They are as ones only concerned with doing what they get paid for, and not as one serving YHWH simply out of love and respect for Him."<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-39874863510190184602009-03-26T14:08:00.000-05:002009-03-26T14:08:00.000-05:00Hey man.I'm glad you see the moral law, in particu...Hey man.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you see the moral law, in particular the 10 commandments, as a Good Thing.<BR/><BR/>The Boundary Stones book does address the applicability of the whole law, both what men have divided as "moral" and "ritual". In the coming weeks, I'll review more of this book and maybe we can discuss it in more detail there.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-4665023829006104152009-03-26T12:42:00.000-05:002009-03-26T12:42:00.000-05:00Hi Judah,Forgive my lengthy absence here. (I'm...Hi Judah,<BR/><BR/>Forgive my lengthy absence here. (I'm not a daily reader - but I do read your blog from time to time.)<BR/><BR/>"Saved by Grace". I haven't read the book, but it is good to be in agreement on that vital point about salvation. I agree with everything in your post - as a Christian who believes that there is an ongoing demand on those who belong to the Messiah to obey the Lord's moral law as it is summarized in the ten commandments.<BR/><BR/>I think that where hairs start to get split between the "Messianic Jews" and "Christians" is whether by definition "the law" refers to the 5 books of Moses including ceremonial and ritual laws - or only to the moral teaching and commands. By the first definition I am a flagrant law-breaker - by the second I profess to adhere to it by His power at work in me. I wonder if this book addresses the question of the ceremonial law being fulfilled once-and-for all or being still required by those who profess faith?<BR/><BR/>These are vital issues. If someone is living in open disregard of God's moral law - we have every reason to believe that there has never been a true work of His Spirit upon that life - a true conversion & salvation. So, if Christians live in seemingly open disregard for commands that Moses wrote were "forever"...can you question their faith in a similar way? The passover is an example: in the Scripture we are directed to observe it perpetually. The only question is: if the Messiah is our passover lamb as it says in the New Testament - does our celebration of his life, death and resurrection subsume the required obedience to this law of ceremony? I believe that it does. Does that make me a law-breaker? Legally, yes - but spiritually I can also argue complete compliance, by faith. The books of Moses point forward to the Messiah. Christians should take them VERY seriously for all of the reasons that you mention in your post. I just have to be a bit of a thorn in your side today to raise some issues :).<BR/>Peace,<BR/>BrianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-15922214984664268422009-03-25T21:45:00.000-05:002009-03-25T21:45:00.000-05:00thanks, I'll send it tonight.thanks, I'll send it tonight.Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-80090387745499362082009-03-25T21:42:00.000-05:002009-03-25T21:42:00.000-05:00Efrayim,Nice domain name grab! You should absolute...Efrayim,<BR/><BR/>Nice domain name grab! You should absolutely start a blog there. Let me know when you do.<BR/><BR/>I would love to hear the song. Email it to me: judahgabriel at gmail.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-13459130595735504132009-03-25T18:33:00.000-05:002009-03-25T18:33:00.000-05:00Judah,I've been meaning to post sooner, but someti...Judah,<BR/><BR/>I've been meaning to post sooner, but sometimes life gets a little complicated. I'm sure you know what I mean.<BR/><BR/>Your two posts regarding the relationship between Torah and grace have reminded me that about a year ago my wife and I purchased the domain name "TorahandGrace.com"<BR/><BR/>We were very surprised that it was available. Now I need to put up a blog with that name and start writing!<BR/><BR/>Also, I would like to send you a song by Sinai Aviel that I think you might like. I had to buy it from a music store in Jerusalem, but since I wasn't there I had someone send it to me. <BR/><BR/>I can give you one of my email addresses so you can let me know if would like the song.<BR/><BR/>Good questions, good post.<BR/><BR/>Shalom<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-83676061557754264412009-03-25T15:12:00.000-05:002009-03-25T15:12:00.000-05:00Hi Nathan,Thanks for stopping by and commenting. G...Hi Nathan,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by and commenting. Glad you liked the post. I encourage you to grab this book, it was really encouraging and helpful to me.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I see you're a software developer and frequently blog on faith matters. That makes 2 of us. :-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-6325345673579012442009-03-25T14:00:00.000-05:002009-03-25T14:00:00.000-05:00I am really excited by this too, because for some ...I am really excited by this too, because for some reason, I never quite made the connection between what I know of OT salvation (saved by faith in the coming Messiah, no matter how little known of Him) and our situation today (saved by faith in the come Messiah, with lots known of Him).<BR/><BR/>Good stuff to think about. Thanks, Judah, and thanks also, Aaron!rAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com