tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post8914824783198689418..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: The Church and the JewsJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-5614166243775920012009-06-22T16:08:54.253-05:002009-06-22T16:08:54.253-05:00To every false accusation and unrighteous curse th...To every false accusation and unrighteous curse there is a response and justice from HaQadhosh Barukh Hu.<br /><br />Since one of the forms of our mind's concepts is writing, it certainly carries a weight with it. Perhaps not as powerful as spoken word, but still carrying a weight. This one is marked.<br /><br />Din w'gevurah,<br />-AaronA. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66214686516385621872009-06-22T15:57:45.361-05:002009-06-22T15:57:45.361-05:00We all agree it's not a salvation issue,
And ...We all agree it's not a salvation issue,<br /><br />And thus <b>we shouldn't wish emasculation on fellow brothers in Messiah</b>.<br /><br />That I had to actually utter those words speaks volumes about the state of the Messianic movement and our immaturity.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-9757770063219982172009-06-22T15:48:37.977-05:002009-06-22T15:48:37.977-05:00I said:
"Some saved persons are not members o...I said:<br />"<i>Some saved persons are not members of the Assembly of Israel....Some uncircumcised men are saved (Acts 15)</i>"<br /><br />Gene said:<br />"<i>Yes, Aaron - these uncircumcised saved people are called "Gentiles". And they are not "some", they are the other (and MUCH bigger) half of the One New Man and part of Messiah's Body. They are also called the "wild branches".</i>"<br /><br />Sure, they are gentiles, but they are not the "body of the Messiah" which is the Assembly - they are not yet that as I clearly proved!<br /><br />If they were the assembly of Israel, they would be circumcised and eligible, by Torah, to celebrate the Pesahh.<br />You can't just take part of my proof which I bolded and disregard the rest!A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-28777058605924675192009-06-22T15:45:42.548-05:002009-06-22T15:45:42.548-05:00Judah, I personally have no issue discussing these...Judah, I personally have no issue discussing these issues in no matter what level of emotion it seems to be in.<br /><br />On this end, and perhaps on Gene's end as well, we are completely calm. I don't personally have a problem with Gene, I just think the doctrines he holds to are wrong and untrue at times. This is not to say I have never been an upholder of false doctrine. I used to believe lots of things I would now even consider "heretical" according to my beliefs.<br /><br />The only thing is if people are constantly seeking truth. If one of my beliefs was proven wrong by the Tanakh or authoritative writings, I would renounce it and change my view. I am only interested in the truth.<br /><br />I think there may have been a purposed change in argument to try to make me look like a big and bad condemning person, but with the limited explanation given, it could have been taken many ways - so I explained, and I have nothing wrong with that.<br /><br />I do not personally believe Gene is evil, nor that he is misintentioned, really, he carries a great zeal for his beliefs as do I - and we are only debating them, I hope based on Tanakh and Jewish understanding primarily.<br /><br />Nor do I believe Gene is "unsaved" or not part of the "body of Messiah". I don't know what the case is, but in my best estimation, he is both; only, in my opinion, confused on some issues. Of course he and others think the same of me. What better thing than to debate and argue, then?A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-76729159009664295912009-06-22T15:40:53.986-05:002009-06-22T15:40:53.986-05:00"Some saved persons are not members of the As..."Some saved persons are not members of the Assembly of Israel....Some uncircumcised men are saved (Acts 15)"<br /><br />Yes, Aaron - these uncircumcised saved people are called "Gentiles". And they are not "some", they are the other (and MUCH bigger) half of the One New Man and part of Messiah's Body. They are also called the "wild branches".<br /><br />"Gene, now that Aaron has clarified, I would hope you will privately consider the things I've said to you."<br /><br />Judah... I always consider everything you and everyone else here says. This is what having a conversation is all about.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18304741689461571482009-06-22T15:22:40.433-05:002009-06-22T15:22:40.433-05:00Thanks for clarifying, Aaron.
Gene, now that Aaro...Thanks for clarifying, Aaron.<br /><br />Gene, now that Aaron has clarified, I would hope you will privately consider the things I've said to you.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-63855770604446536552009-06-22T15:15:14.794-05:002009-06-22T15:15:14.794-05:00"Basically what he is saying is that unless y..."Basically what he is saying is that unless you are part of Nazarene Judaism then you are lost."<br /><br />If this will seriously continue to be anyone's interpretation of my words after the previous two above posts, then there's no point in continuing to argue, haha.A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-35305418677937215872009-06-22T15:11:27.161-05:002009-06-22T15:11:27.161-05:00I suggest watching this:
The Repentance of Israel...I suggest watching this:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd2gjal05Hw" rel="nofollow">The Repentance of Israel = Different Religion? (Dt. 30:1-8)</a>A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-37254413632035602009-06-22T15:07:39.788-05:002009-06-22T15:07:39.788-05:00Assembly of Y" is the "Body of Messiah&q...Assembly of Y" is the "Body of Messiah". It is called Body of Messiah when referring to the Heavenly Yeshua as Adam Kadmon - therefore this term is often misunderstood, but it is still referring to the Assembly of Y", which is the same as the Assembly of Israel - and there has only ever been ONE Assembly.<br /><br />Now that we have that straight...<br /><br />I was about to post another response, but I decided to cut out a lot and make it pithy and to the point. This follows a very easy form of logic and is undeniably and clearly proved by the Tanakh and Khethuvei Netsarim:<br /><br /><b>Premise 1:<br />All members of the "Assembly of Israel" must eat the Passover (Ex. 12:47)<br /><br />Premise 2:<br />No uncircumcised man may eat the Passover (Ex. 12:48)<br /><br />Argument::<br />If all members of the Assembly of Israel must eat the Passover<br />and if no uncircumcised men may eat the Passover<br />then all male members of the Assembly of Israel must be circumcised.<br /><br />Conclusion:<br />All male members of the Assembly of Israel are circumcised.<br /><br />Corollary:<br />No male members of the Assembly of Israel are uncircumcised.<br /><br />Premise 3:<br />Some uncircumcised men are saved (Acts 15)<br /><br />Argument:<br />If all members of the Assembly of Israel are circumcised and if some uncircumcised men are saved,<br />then some saved persons are not members of the Assembly of Israel.<br /><br />Conclusion:<br />Some saved persons are not members of the Assembly of Israel.</b><br /><br />-After being saved by accepting HaRav Yeshua, you are thereby betrothed. You should make sure you are keeping the Noahide Laws and learning the Torah weekly.<br /><br />-To become married and a part of Kehilath Y" (i.e. become an Israelite), you will become circumcised and Torah observant at your conversion to Judaism.<br /><br />Some people really need to redefine their terms!A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-77208188982328688132009-06-22T13:40:47.111-05:002009-06-22T13:40:47.111-05:00I think Aaron, like Gene, can be overzealous in hi...I think Aaron, like Gene, can be overzealous in his words sometimes. I know Aaron -- he's my younger brother -- and I know he believes faith in Yeshua makes one saved. But rather than add a 3rd interpretation of his words, I'll let Aaron speak for himself (and eat my words if necessary! ;-))Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16706423402217461642009-06-22T13:32:54.841-05:002009-06-22T13:32:54.841-05:00Aharon said "Now mainstream Messianic "J...Aharon said "Now mainstream Messianic "Judaism" will say gentile Christians are the "body of Messiah", which we do not believe, and believe Christianity and all forms of it are nothing but anti-Torah, anti-Judaistic, and counterfeit replacements themselves."<br /><br />My understanding of what Aharon said is that Christians are not believers or part of the body of faith. Basically what he is saying is that unless you are part of Nazarene Judaism then you are lost. Maybe I am wrong in my interpretation of what Aharon said (and I hope I am wrong). If I'm wrong then Aharon you need to need to reword what you have just wrote.Peter Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-25216214108392840162009-06-22T13:27:36.979-05:002009-06-22T13:27:36.979-05:00J.K. McKee thankyou for your article. I hope to re...J.K. McKee thankyou for your article. I hope to read it soon.Peter Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-85136077905662512742009-06-22T13:26:41.270-05:002009-06-22T13:26:41.270-05:00Judah said "I hope you will find the Messiani...Judah said "I hope you will find the Messianic movement maturing in the coming years. I know God is helping us toward this goal as we look to the end, toward the restoration of Israel and coming Kingdom of God."<br /><br />Thankyou very much for your kind words. <br /><br />The one thing I have found has been that Jews who become part of the messianic movement are a lot more tolerant of christians than former christians who become part of it. While there are many things in Christianity that I have problems with it does not mean that all christians are pagans.Peter Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-43755145835838932362009-06-22T13:18:04.804-05:002009-06-22T13:18:04.804-05:00Gene, if Aaron comes in here and clarifies, I woul...Gene, if Aaron comes in here and clarifies, I would hope you will privately consider the things I've said to you.<br /><br />Shalom and love in Messiah to you, Gene.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-30623482227279335622009-06-22T13:08:41.995-05:002009-06-22T13:08:41.995-05:00"Aaron did not say Christians are not saved. ..."Aaron did not say Christians are not saved. It isn't a salvation issue."<br /><br />Judah... OK, sure, whatever - may be we are reading blog postings in parallel universes. We'll let others here decided.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-54225555200848127772009-06-22T12:59:56.428-05:002009-06-22T12:59:56.428-05:00Gene,
Aaron did not say Christians are not saved....Gene,<br /><br />Aaron did not say Christians are not saved. It isn't a salvation issue.<br /><br />Gene, your zeal for your particular set of theologies is an astounding zeal. But it has caused you to tear down people over theological differences unrelated to salvation.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-78238214503002185252009-06-22T12:48:51.688-05:002009-06-22T12:48:51.688-05:00Judah...
"Gene, your zeal for your particula...Judah...<br /><br />"Gene, your zeal for your particular set of theologies is an astounding zeal. But it has caused you to tear down people over theological differences unrelated to salvation."<br /><br />A lot of what I address here (but not ALL of it) DOES pertain to salvation. For example, Aaron, who advocates here for his Nazarene Judaism, wrote the following in his post above:<br /><br />"Now mainstream Messianic "Judaism" will say gentile Christians are the "body of Messiah", which we do not believe"<br /><br />Clearly, Aaron is talking about salvation here. Either you are part of the Body, or you're lost. But Aaron is not the only one holding these beliefs. Many Hebrew Roots/Sacred Namers/One-Law/Nazarene groups view believers in churches (and probably in mainstream Messianic Judaism) as lost pagans.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-42624603301270348202009-06-22T12:30:14.310-05:002009-06-22T12:30:14.310-05:00Gene,
Paul was addressing a salvation issue.
Gen...Gene,<br /><br />Paul was addressing a salvation issue.<br /><br />Gene, your zeal for your particular set of theologies is an astounding zeal. But it has caused you to tear down people over theological differences unrelated to salvation.<br /><br />Yes, there are legitimate differences in theology and doctrine at times, but often of more concern is the animosity created between those brothers in Messiah with different theologies. Sometimes the animosity created is worse than the thing you’re opposing.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-3278721285758976132009-06-22T12:02:41.766-05:002009-06-22T12:02:41.766-05:00Gary....
"This isn't about accepting bad...Gary....<br /><br />"This isn't about accepting bad behaviors or buying into errant doctrines, it is about bearing with one another in love."<br /><br />I am all for accepting and loving one another. However, there comes a time when one must take a stand against those who lead others astray. Did not the apostle Paul himself wrote the following:<br /><br />"As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" (Galatians 5:12)<br /><br />Very strong words... they seem to be not very kind, not uplifting, not loving, and certainly not very encouraging to those on the receiving end, the perpetrators of confusion.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-14819722293930429302009-06-22T10:33:10.756-05:002009-06-22T10:33:10.756-05:00Peter,
I don't know if you have read it befor...Peter,<br /><br />I don't know if you have read it before (it is a bit "dated" at over 18 months), but do take the time to read through my article "How Are We to Live as Modern Messianics?"<br /><br />http://tnnonline.net/theonews/messianic-issues/modern-messianics/index.html<br /><br />This directly takes on a lot of the "Christianity is pagan" nonsense, and really does try to give us some important hints as to how we can be transformed into a force of God's holiness and righteousness.J.K. McKeehttp://tnnonline.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-40449852113546510002009-06-22T08:20:21.644-05:002009-06-22T08:20:21.644-05:00Gary, you said,
This isn't about accepting ba...Gary, you said,<br /><br /><i>This isn't about accepting bad behaviors or buying into errant doctrines, it is about bearing with one another in love. It is about encouraging one another to grow in grace and knowledge of God, not tearing down or belittling the other. It is then that we are drawn together. When we get to heaven I believe we are going to look back and see what fools we have been.</i><br /><br />Man, that's it exactly. It is good to hear someone else say that.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50307969112605979712009-06-22T08:05:34.313-05:002009-06-22T08:05:34.313-05:00Peter,
I sympathize with you. What you said about...Peter,<br /><br />I sympathize with you. What you said about every little group among Messianics claiming to be the authentic faith. All the "pagan" bashing. I know. I've been part of that. Sorry for that. I wrote as much in <a href="http://judahgabriel.blogspot.com/2009/02/pragmatic-messianic-judaism.html" rel="nofollow">A Pragmatic Messianic Judaism</a>.<br /><br />I hope you will find the Messianic movement maturing in the coming years. I know God is helping us toward this goal as we look to the end, toward the restoration of Israel and coming Kingdom of God.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89149681730087779242009-06-21T13:39:43.346-05:002009-06-21T13:39:43.346-05:00On Gene's supposedly "accurate" summ...On Gene's supposedly "accurate" summary of Nazarene Judaism, I have this to correct:<br /><br />-Nazarene Judaism actually follows the Acts 15 process for returning gentiles, instead of being under the "one faith two expression" deception of mainstream Messianic Judaism and not properly causing gentiles to Judaize (convert themselves to Judaism) and become Israelites in the fullness of Torah.<br /><br />This is not replacement theology; we believe all racial Jews are racially Jewish, and all modern Orthodox Jews follow Judaism. We are not set on replacing them by any means. Now mainstream Messianic "Judaism" will say gentile Christians are the "body of Messiah", which we do not believe, and believe Christianity and all forms of it are nothing but anti-Torah, anti-Judaistic, and counterfeit replacements themselves.<br /><br />-Nazarene Judaism believes in an oral instruction, some of which was passed from Moshe and the original court of elders. We believe it is preserved in the Pharisaic recording of it, the Talmud, and among the Essene recording of it and other things among the Dead Sea scrolls. We intend to continue restoring proper observance and halakha. Mainstream Messianic Judaism doesn't really attempt to do this whatsoever.<br /><br />Gene said:<br />"<i>What they [the Nazarenes] THINK (through "research")</i>"<br /><br />You shouldn't even comment on this since your sect does nothing much to restore even an original Talmudic observance but instead adapts its observances from the source of modern Judaism.<br />I know of Jews who have adopted an original Talmudic observance, and what they do is great, in my opinion, and is quite different from what is normally modernly observed.A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-39917630630713745002009-06-21T10:02:35.748-05:002009-06-21T10:02:35.748-05:00Judah,
Some how my comment on what I quoted got l...Judah,<br /><br />Some how my comment on what I quoted got lost...weird.<br /><br /><i>"I read these old reprinted materials from Jewish Christians in the 1930s, ‘40s, and ‘50s, I started to realize just how lacking we are today, to understate the matter. Our faith life is junk compared to these men and women."</i><br /><br />I have been reading about some of the Christians living in the 19th Century...people like J. Hudson Taylor, George Mueller, Robert Chapman, etc. It is amazing to read about their faith in God and how God provided and blessed others through them. It is something I think is lacking today.<br /><br />GaryGary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-35858239692823138032009-06-21T09:47:46.548-05:002009-06-21T09:47:46.548-05:00Judah,
"I read these old reprinted materials...Judah,<br /><br /><i>"I read these old reprinted materials from Jewish Christians in the 1930s, ‘40s, and ‘50s, I started to realize just how lacking we are today, to understate the matter. Our faith life is junk compared to these men and women."</i><br /><br />Christians have always latched onto bits of doctrine and allowed that doctrine to divide, things like baptismal regeneration, speaking in tongues, hymns versus contemporary Christian music, etc. I am convinced that Jesus desires better things for his body than his hand cutting off His foot.<br /><br />There are many things that Catholics believe that are contrary to what I believe, so it has been my tendency to dismiss them. Recently I have read some things by a couple of Catholic authors and thought, "wow, this is really good." I don't know if they represent the mainstream of Catholic belief and I don't agree with everything I read, but I have come to the realization that no one group has the corner on truth.<br /><br />I know that I don't have the corner on truth and, as I have stated in the past, I am willing and open for God to change my mind. I think that there is a danger in denominations and movements and sects...they tend close the mind, close communication and inhibit fellowship. This isn't about accepting bad behaviors or buying into errant doctrines, it is about bearing with one another in love. It is about encouraging one another to grow in grace and knowledge of God, not tearing down or belittling the other. It is then that we are drawn together. When we get to heaven I believe we are going to look back and see what fools we have been.<br /><br />GaryGary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.com