tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post840472460488489442..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: The Last Words of Moishe RosenJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-19224879760221772622010-06-06T16:00:39.782-05:002010-06-06T16:00:39.782-05:00In defence of such people and organizations (label...In defence of such people and organizations (labeled "Ephraimite"), I believe many of them are simply on path to returning to Torah-Judaism. I can't say they have absolutely no truth to their claim, I don't think their claim comes from nowhere or that they have no legitimacy.<br /><br />And against the UMJC and similar organizations and like-minded people. Its not as if they have any sort of legitimate observance, in many cases, or any realistic aim. They're a bunch of sort-of Conservative (or maybe some of them are kind-of Orthodox) level-observance people, probably mostly Jewish, who sit in exile and don't actually do much of what Rabi Yehoshua` taught and would want striven for.<br />Things like returning to the Land of Israel and implementing Torath Eress Yisrael are things not even on the radar for such groups, it seems.<br /><br />I really have a huge skepticism for anyone who claims they follow "Yeshua". Usually they're following their own version which is usually far off from the actual man, and there's tons of different versions among all the non-cohesive groups and splinter groups who all fight among themselves like a bunch of Prostestants.<br /><br />Just my speculation on the honest reality of the "Messianic" movement in general, of which I am not a part. So don't be mad at me. =)Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-67698837773570405282010-06-06T15:34:17.321-05:002010-06-06T15:34:17.321-05:00In agreement with Gene, there is a 'Ephraimite...In agreement with Gene, there is a 'Ephraimite elistism' among MIA and likeminded organizations.<br />There is a huge misunderstanding and lack of understanding Judaism.<br /><br />Since John McKey is on here, able to read this, this isn't lashon hara`. His material is much the same.<br /><br />Among these groups there is little to no real understanding of Judaism in general. The "NT" is looked at completely out of its proper context of the very distinct culture and religion of the Jewish people. That's because these people think their version of the historical figure Yehoshua` was a heretic like the Karaites/Sadducees/Beothusians(sp!?) who don't believe in the Oral Torah. Of course, if you look at the "NT" writings, the people who actually persecuted the followers of Rabi Yehoshua` (and he himself) were doing so because of them proclaiming beliefs of the Oral Torah like resurrection of the dead, the existence of the next world, etc. The Sadducees believed no such thing because they rejected Oral Torah.<br />Shaul even admits that he was a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, and was on trial by the political-Sanhedrim (half comprised of Sadducees) because of his belief and proclaimation of the Oral-Torah concept of resurrection of the dead. Read for yourself, he says it himself quite plainly...<br /><br />Interestingly, such groups as MIA and similar believe in these aspects of Oral Torah only because they see them in the "NT". They miss other readily apparent aspects of Oral Torah in the "NT" because they don't know enough about Judaism or Jewish life in general to have any idea.<br /><br />Its much harder to try to tell them anything like this, because they don't know enough about the issue at hand (Judaism, Jewish life), and immediately fall back on pre-set programmed anti-Judaistic teachings from either Christian or Messianic sources.Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-37084234770640941342010-06-06T14:11:17.989-05:002010-06-06T14:11:17.989-05:00Judah,
Nice link to the MIA. That should just abo...Judah,<br /><br />Nice link to the MIA. That should just about clear that up.<br /><br />Unless someone is just not interested in the truth.<br /><br />EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-15316428479374315732010-06-05T00:18:50.508-05:002010-06-05T00:18:50.508-05:00Don't let enemies of Messianic Israel characte...Don't let enemies of Messianic Israel characterize them. <br /><br />For clarity on what MIA believes and their response to accusations of replacement theology, see their document <a href="http://www.messianicisrael.com/news/teachings/the-importance-of-inclusion-theology.html?Itemid=39" rel="nofollow">The Importance of Inclusion Theology</a>.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18341904893094664642010-06-04T14:23:05.262-05:002010-06-04T14:23:05.262-05:00There's a great article, spot on article, abou...There's a great article, spot on article, about the Ephraimites on Rick Ross' site: http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general776.html<br /><br />It also describes the antisemitism of Two-House's founders, the Wootens, including their questioning the very identity of modern Jews, or being upset that Jews called their new state "Israel" instead of "Judah"! Just WOW!Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-10836770709318907322010-06-04T13:36:49.091-05:002010-06-04T13:36:49.091-05:00"Doesn't sound like fairy tale to me. In ..."Doesn't sound like fairy tale to me. In fact it looks very much like an inevitable event over which Efrayim and Y'hudah will not have any control."<br /><br />Ephraimites have never been lost, and neither have been any of the tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The Jewish people of yesterday and today constitute ALL of the tribes of Israel, which means that Northern and Southern Kingdoms of Israel have been reunited by G-d already (long ago), since Israel today (or even Israel of more than two thousand years ago) is no longer divided into two warring kingdoms. To believe otherwise is to promote the old British Israelism and Worldwide Church of G-d nonsense.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-65222035097630365372010-06-04T12:14:28.313-05:002010-06-04T12:14:28.313-05:00Should read:
Doesn't sound like fairy tale to...Should read:<br /><br />Doesn't sound like fairy tale to me. In fact it looks very much like an inevitable event over which Efrayim and Y'hudah will not have any control.Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66423317285417150982010-06-04T12:11:49.382-05:002010-06-04T12:11:49.382-05:00Ezekiel 37:19 "tell them YHWH Elohim says thi...Ezekiel 37:19 "tell them YHWH Elohim says this: 'I will take the stick of Yosef, which is in the hand of Efrayim, together with the tribes of Israel who are joined with him, and put them together with the stick of Y'hudah and make them a single stick, so that they become one in my hand.'"<br /><br />Doesn't sound like fairy tale to me. In fact it looks very much like an inevitable event over which Efrayim of Y'hudah will not have any control. <br /><br />It seems to me that willing participation in the plan of YHWH would be a wise choice.<br /><br />EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70486665325613391292010-06-03T18:20:18.018-05:002010-06-03T18:20:18.018-05:00Anon,
Thanks for posting. I, too, believe that Ez...Anon,<br /><br />Thanks for posting. I, too, believe that Ezekiel 37 is a future event and that the two sticks have not yet been reunited.<br /><br />I recommend reading John McKee's 2 House website: <a href="http://tnnonline.net" rel="nofollow">Two House News Network</a>. John is a moderate voice in the Two House community, and perhaps the most scholarly and knowledgeable. You'd do well to read his material.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-9291307390973900252010-06-03T14:37:18.148-05:002010-06-03T14:37:18.148-05:00Anonymous, I don't for a second believe in Bat...Anonymous, I don't for a second believe in Batya's "Two-House" fairy tales (her invention of Gentile Christians really being the "lost tribes" of Israel). Not only are they laughable and contradictory to the Bible, history, science and plain common sense, but to most Jews find her repackaging of the ridiculous British Israelitism's ideology/theology of the bygone era as one of the worst examples of Replacement Theology yet perpetrated on the Jewish people and an affront to Messianic Jews in particular.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-23631876348432594562010-06-03T10:43:33.398-05:002010-06-03T10:43:33.398-05:00Gene, Judah is our (MIA) brother. If folks would g...Gene, Judah is our (MIA) brother. If folks would get off the defensive, (and Father knows, who can blame them) and realize that there are a large number of non-Jews who love the Jewish people. I personally believe that there is not a race of people, God's CHOSEN people, who have been more persecuted than the Jews. It is long past time that the persecution and hatred, the anti-semitic sentiments were squashed for once and for all time. It never ceases to amaze me how so much of the world blames Israel for being the aggressor, the "bad guy". I may disagree with my brother Judah, but in my heart I feel no animosity toward him. The plight and suffering of the Jewish people breaks my heart. I weep for Judah,as do my fellow MIA, many of whom, by the way, are not "non-Jews". I so look forward to the day that these racial terms, which only serve to divide us, are never spoken again. We are one in Yeshua and it is high time we unite as brothers and sisters against those are out to destroy beloved Israel. I left the church when I discovered the truth of what happened in tne centuries following the death and ressurection of Yeshua, and now am myself persecuted by many in my former "church" when they learn, for instance, that that Bible I carry is titled "Complete Jewish Bible", that I celebrate the Yahweh's feasts, etc. Yeshua is not gonna return until we unite in love and obedience to the God of Israel! Aren't you fed up with all this fussing and fighting? As for me, I stand for a united Israel and love for Judah! BTW ,I use anonymous b/c I am not computer-savvy enough to figure out how to do a name and all. Now go back and read your own words,Gene. You said it, not me. Please don't judge me unfairly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-137990569655658182010-06-02T22:35:38.318-05:002010-06-02T22:35:38.318-05:00"I am surprised no one has commented on the M..."I am surprised no one has commented on the Messianic Israel movement...the MIA and the LACK of infighting,etc. within. "<br /><br />Wait, I get it - that's because Gentiles (MIA) got their stuff together, a peaceful and a gracious bunch, and get along with each other splendidly, demonstrating a true example of brotherhood, while those Jews (UMJC), well, they are Jews... 'nough said, right?Gene Shomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-36168162855547716932010-06-02T17:41:59.912-05:002010-06-02T17:41:59.912-05:00I am surprised no one has commented on the Messian...I am surprised no one has commented on the Messianic Israel movement...the MIA and the LACK of infighting,etc. within. Anyone read Batya Wooten's books? Heard of Bill Cloud? Brad Scott? Mike Clayton? There is a wonderful, peaceful balance stemming from, what is in my humble opinion, a true circumcision of the heart and love for Israel, the apple of The Fathers eye. <br />Hey thanks for playing Lenny and Varda, great stuff! Blessings!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-35225181820557062262010-06-01T19:41:42.704-05:002010-06-01T19:41:42.704-05:00@Mike,
Dr. Michael Brown, who would likely align ...@Mike,<br /><br />Dr. Michael Brown, who would likely align with Moishe Rosen, has some <a href="http://realmessiah.askdrbrown.org/Read" rel="nofollow">answers to that question</a>. I don't necessarily agree with their views on rabbinic things, but it's out there for consideration.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-43863056176805766022010-06-01T19:33:10.576-05:002010-06-01T19:33:10.576-05:00Jon, thanks for the correction. The reason I thoug...Jon, thanks for the correction. The reason I thought they were J4J was that is is through J4J's <a href="http://store.jewsforjesus.org/" rel="nofollow">Purple Pomegranate</a> productions that Israel's Hope music is sold through. But maybe they're sold elsewhere....<br /><br />That's cool you've been there since 3 years old - wow! Not too many lifelong Messianics out there. I've been a Messianic since I was a preteen, but you go back even further. :-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-53304285413365727522010-06-01T16:15:09.202-05:002010-06-01T16:15:09.202-05:00Rosen chided a ministry that does not involve itse...Rosen chided a ministry that does not involve itself with the messiah.. which includes Judaism. However, I have read a couple of books authored by Abraham Twerski. I find them insightful, and helpful in my quest to better myself.<br /><br />I realize he, and other Rabbis, do not believe in the Messiah, but how can these teachings actually hurt me? <br /><br />MikeMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08561074565335343983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16304912930320039712010-06-01T11:22:41.021-05:002010-06-01T11:22:41.021-05:00"And yes, there is some great music from J4J...."And yes, there is some great music from J4J. Israel's Hope comes out of them, if I remember. One of my favs. :-)"<br /><br />Minor point here: Israel's Hope came out of Beth Messiah Congregation in Rockville, MD. <br /><br />I've been @ BMC since I was 3(26 years)...we've never been associated w/ J4J in anyway. <br /><br />Just had to clear that up. <br />=-)Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06299838981543785885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-39413507357959070072010-05-30T14:19:52.022-05:002010-05-30T14:19:52.022-05:00Gene, you Judaizer......
Kidding, of course. =)Gene, you Judaizer......<br /><br />Kidding, of course. =)Jewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-36603641055027712972010-05-28T09:48:53.626-05:002010-05-28T09:48:53.626-05:00Ryan, contact me directly, and we'll talk abou...Ryan, contact me directly, and we'll talk about this. Use the form here: http://www.bethavinu.org/contact-usGene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-39640036779632328682010-05-28T07:37:08.415-05:002010-05-28T07:37:08.415-05:00Gene, Efrayim,
Thanks for your responses. I thin...Gene, Efrayim,<br /><br />Thanks for your responses. I think I'm beginning to understand now. I also appreciate your patience and taking the time to educate [a gentile]. :) <br /><br />This is all quite interesting. I guess I have been coming at all of this from the perspective where keeping the Torah wasn't even on the radar. Forgive this ignorance, but honestly the thought process was "that's something only for pre-Jesus times and for Orthodox Jews." Hopefully that doesn't offend (it's not intended to); my guess is that many, many non-Jews have this same thought because I've been around the block more than a time or two, especially in Christian circles, and have never heard this.<br /><br />You have opened my eyes here. I'll have to do some research and some reading... Any suggestions?Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-20870646824832639132010-05-27T16:40:12.314-05:002010-05-27T16:40:12.314-05:00"Ha??? Of course I don't agree that one m..."Ha??? Of course I don't agree that one must be circumcised to receive salvation from G-d through Yeshua. Yeshua came to save BOTH the circumcised (Jews) and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) - and as you remember, Paul wrote that each should remain as is (1 Corinthians 7:18), which naturally includes the rest of Torah applicability."<br /><br />I agree it is funny to even consider the thought... the point is the bible never teaches that circumcision saves, or is a necessary tool for conversion/salvation... but man does, such as the Pharisees in the context of Acts 15 and of course Orthodox Judaism does teach conversion by circumcision, Brit Milah, Hatafat Dam Brit... <br /><br />I think one has to conclude that Acts 15 when addressing circumcision, is not speaking of what is laid out in scripture as correct, but what is laid in the additions that were added or interpreted... Thus we have to conclude the bible held circumcision in a different understanding than what the Pharisees offered. Would you agree?Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22291639352525946162010-05-27T16:29:20.428-05:002010-05-27T16:29:20.428-05:00"Ok, so do you agree that one cannot receive ..."Ok, so do you agree that one cannot receive salvation from Yeshua without being circumicsed?"<br /><br />Ha??? Of course I don't agree that one must be circumcised to receive salvation from G-d through Yeshua. Yeshua came to save BOTH the circumcised (Jews) and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) - and as you remember, Paul wrote that each should remain as is (1 Corinthians 7:18), which naturally includes the rest of Torah applicability.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-15746152257604167802010-05-27T16:18:49.803-05:002010-05-27T16:18:49.803-05:00"Zion/Jeruz, your question is a red herring o..."Zion/Jeruz, your question is a red herring one because not based on the text. The Pharisee believers didn't indicate that circumcision is what saved, instead what they said that unless one underwent the procedure, one COULDN'T get saved by Yeshua - meaning they thought that it was a step in the process of receiving FREE salvation from G-d through Yeshua, not the the procedure saved anyone. That's a huge difference."<br /><br />Ok, so do you agree that one cannot receive salvation from Yeshua without being circumicsed?Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-49766072687621564142010-05-27T16:15:23.975-05:002010-05-27T16:15:23.975-05:00"Gene, do you agree that one is saved by circ..."Gene, do you agree that one is saved by circumcision according to the custom of Moses?<br /><br />Zion/Jeruz, your question is a red herring one because not based on the text. The Pharisee believers didn't indicate that circumcision is what saved, instead what they said that unless one underwent the procedure, one COULDN'T get saved by Yeshua - meaning they thought that it was a step in the process of receiving FREE salvation from G-d through Yeshua, not the the procedure saved anyone. That's a huge difference.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-28433914279251400742010-05-27T16:07:35.691-05:002010-05-27T16:07:35.691-05:00Gene wrote:
"One must first understand WHY t...Gene wrote:<br /><br />"One must first understand WHY the council had to be convened. Some Jewish believers from the Pharisees believed that Gentiles coming to faith in G-d must convert AND observed Torah as given to Moses. However, Acts 15 shows that this was not G-d's intention at all. "<br /><br />Gene, do you agree that one is saved by circumcision according to the custom of Moses?Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.com