tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post7769550575992211606..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Defining Two HouseJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger105125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1885857703050594712010-11-15T11:37:47.725-06:002010-11-15T11:37:47.725-06:00Read in Ann Catherine of Emmerich, at the death of...Read in Ann Catherine of Emmerich, at the death of Jesus on the cross, "the earth was shaken and the bones of the death were once more covered with fless and their spirits returned to them" to give witness of the messiah and the fulfillement of Ezeqiel 37. And they (those once dead that were brought to live once more) walked the earth and spoke of the truth and the fact that Jesus was the messiah and those who recognized him were saved by faith from the captivity of sin. Those who blinded by sin decided to denny Jesus as the messiah, are still in darkness waiting for his coming.Ana Marianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-24121989390744690582010-10-15T16:10:11.790-05:002010-10-15T16:10:11.790-05:00@Gene - I note everyone here is still talking abou...@Gene - I note everyone here is still talking about Jews instead of Israel. It's important to note that Jesus had to come to the Jews, being the only visible remainder of Israel, but that the plan for the start was for His life to be the only one ever to keep the Law of Israel, making Him the perfect sacrifice that allowed the Holy Spirit to be given, and the church to both exist, and to be open to people of all nations. It's a common mistake to look at Jesus' actions and not consider their context, or how that context changed as a result of His resurrection.Christian Graushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13444285493681626756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-80796848558634713172010-10-15T15:56:38.970-05:002010-10-15T15:56:38.970-05:00It doesn't really matter - I don't buy int...It doesn't really matter - I don't buy into the myth of all powerful Jewish (Hebrew/Israelite, in archaic Biblical vernacular) ) blood where someone can be mixed with countless generations of non-Jews, whose ancestors for generations lived as non-Jews, but all of a sudden, with smallest of evidence, start claiming to be Jewish.<br /><br />Please note one interesting fact: Samaritans were a mix of Jews and Gentiles. And yet, despite having some "Jewish blood" and even claiming Ya'akov/Israel as their father (see John 7-12 and note the fact Yeshua never corrected that woman's claim!), Yeshua himself called them "foreigners" (Luke 17:11-19) . What's more, he even told his disciples not to enter Samaritan cities, but to go through the cities of Israel instead (Matthew 10:5)!<br /><br />So, to summarize: being Jewish is not just about having some blood or a finding a Jewish ancestor from long ago. To be Jewish means having a shared history, culture, self-perception, shared persecution, having Jewish relatives, being part of Jewish community, thinking like a Jew, feeling shame when other Jews do something bad, hurting when Jews get hurt.... you can't just recreate all this from nothing.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-55187415902570673662010-10-15T15:47:19.401-05:002010-10-15T15:47:19.401-05:00Judah,
Congrats., don't you worry, we will ge...Judah,<br /><br />Congrats., don't you worry, we will get to at least 150 here....<br /><br />While it may be true that some individuals may have lost knowledge of their heritage after many generation of being dispersed among the nation, in general the dispersed tribes of Israel have maintained their identity in their dispersion. Many have rejected their covenant obligations (Shabbat, festivals, circumcision) and even wanted to be viewed as gentiles, but try as they would, their identity as physical descendants of ancient Israel could not be earased.<br /><br />You talked of the prophets. The prophets who spoke of the dispersion of Israel teach that even in her dispersion Israel remembers her true identity. (Hosea 2:7).<br /><br />Historical data, archaeological evidence. and other ancient documents point to the fact that even into the common era, the identity of the northern tribes was known and received.<br /><br />I think you have been sold a bill of demaged goods. There is a lot more, and i hope you are willing to continue to discuss this.Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-30310170860337222432010-10-15T15:00:51.585-05:002010-10-15T15:00:51.585-05:00Doesn't the Bible both say that the 10 tribes ...Doesn't the Bible both say that the 10 tribes have lost their identity, and provide identifying marks by which they can be found ?Christian Graushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13444285493681626756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-26799420825217457682010-10-15T14:59:48.249-05:002010-10-15T14:59:48.249-05:00100th comment. Bazinga. What did I win?100th comment. Bazinga. What did I win?Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-5408010383469586282010-10-15T14:58:33.492-05:002010-10-15T14:58:33.492-05:00@Dan,
Yes. The house of Israel were scattered and...@Dan,<br /><br />Yes. The house of Israel were scattered and assimilated into the nations. It doesn't mean all gentiles are Israelites. It simply means some Israelites have assimilated. And someway, somehow, God will bring them back like Hosea and Ezekiel said, when "my servant David rules over them".Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-26206499164050019282010-10-15T14:50:00.621-05:002010-10-15T14:50:00.621-05:00Judah,
The very core of the 2 house theory is the...Judah,<br /><br />The very core of the 2 house theory is the presupposition that the 10 Northern tribes lost their identity and considered themselves Gentiles.<br /><br />Do you believe this?<br /><br />Gene,<br /><br />A good one...Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-29458881315995759212010-10-15T14:17:54.734-05:002010-10-15T14:17:54.734-05:00LOLLOLJudah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-88867678803757625652010-10-15T14:00:07.445-05:002010-10-15T14:00:07.445-05:00"I believe as Josephus, the sages, and the pr..."I believe as Josephus, the sages, and the prophets did: Israel was scattered and hasn't fully returned. It seems to me the prophets say they won't fully return until Messiah comes."<br /><br />Well, I have not returned yet (at least not for more than a few weeks at a time), and Dan scattered himself out of the Land voluntarily, so that must be true.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-37431381460280023882010-10-15T13:49:17.436-05:002010-10-15T13:49:17.436-05:00>> Paul said gentiles, not native-born, righ...>> <i>Paul said gentiles, not native-born, right?</i><br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />>> <i>So you do believe the lost 10 tribes...</i><br /><br />I believe as Josephus, the sages, and the prophets did: Israel was scattered and hasn't fully returned. It seems to me the prophets say they won't fully return until Messiah comes.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-9677637459840731692010-10-15T11:36:08.056-05:002010-10-15T11:36:08.056-05:00Judah,
"Paul calls gentiles fellow heirs and...Judah,<br /><br />"Paul calls gentiles fellow heirs and citizens of the commonwealth of Israel."<br /><br />Paul said Gentiles, not native-born, right?<br /><br />"Same as you. Israel's heart was hardened. Dan, my belief that the house of Israel hasn't reunited doesn't mean all "house of Israel-ites" are believers."<br /><br />So, you DO believe that Israel is the so-called "lost 10 tribes," right?<br /><br />Confused?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89915220038470252632010-10-15T09:36:51.030-05:002010-10-15T09:36:51.030-05:00Dan,
>> Where does it say that?
In the pr...Dan,<br /><br /><i> >> Where does it say that?</i><br /><br />In the prophets. For example, Hosea,<br /><br /><i>The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.<br /><br />..<br /><br />For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.</i><br /><br />See, that says to me that this reuniting of the two houses won't happen until Messiah is their king. That's why I say this hasn't happened yet.<br /><br /><i> >> Are Gentiles Israel?</i><br /><br />Paul calls gentiles fellow heirs and citizens of the commonwealth of Israel. Does "commonwealth" mean fewer privileges and promises? That's up for interpretation.<br /><br /><i> >>Do you believe that in the land of Israel today there is no Jews from Ephraim, Asher, Isaschar, Zebulun, Naftali? </i><br /><br />I'm certain there are.<br /><br /><i> >> How do you deal with Romans 11:7? Aren't all the 2 housers believers?</i><br /><br />Same as you. Israel's heart was hardened. Dan, my belief that the house of Israel hasn't reunited doesn't mean all "house of Israel-ites" are believers.<br /><br /><i> >> How do you deal with Ezekiel 36:24-25</i><br /><br />It says Israel will come back and live in the land. It's happening now, but won't find its completion until, as Ezekiel says a few verses later, "My servant David will be king over them". Because that has not happened yet, I suggest Ezekiel 36 & 37 describe future events. And thus, I'm Two House. :-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-35877050506444961192010-10-13T21:56:03.625-05:002010-10-13T21:56:03.625-05:00@Dan - why would Jewish Israel unite with Gentile ...@Dan - why would Jewish Israel unite with Gentile Israel, and not with the other 10 1/2 tribes ? What is Gentile Israel ? Does a Jew who become a Christian, thus leave 'Jewish Israel' and join 'Gentile Israel' in your eyes ?<br /><br />I think the most important point in all of this is not to nick pick the details of what God will do ( although I think they are clear enough in the Bible to resolve a lot of these questions ), but to say that those who love God, obey Him regardless of the details. This is all most interesting, but it does sound a lot like straining at gnats to me, all the same :-)Christian Graushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13444285493681626756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-5087737120118263942010-10-13T21:44:27.522-05:002010-10-13T21:44:27.522-05:00Judah,
" Israel will reunite with all Israel...Judah,<br /><br />" Israel will reunite with all Israel"<br /><br />Where does it say that?<br /><br />Are Gentiles Israel? Do you mean Jewish Israel will be united with Gentile Israel? Where does it say this?<br /><br />Do you believe that in the land of Israel today there is no Jews from Ephraim, Asher, Isaschar, Zebulun, Naftali? <br /><br />How do you deal with Rom. 11:7? Arn't all the 2 housers believers? How do you reconsile this with Ezk. 36:24-25?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50381601126242046982010-10-13T21:22:04.899-05:002010-10-13T21:22:04.899-05:00@Dan,
Jews today are more than the tribe of Judah...@Dan,<br /><br />Jews today are more than the tribe of Judah. Paul and Mordechai were Jews, and they were from Benjamin. The Tenakh records some from Israel returned and assimilated into Judah. And Levi was scattered in both houses. So no, Jews aren't just the tribe of Judah.<br /><br />Regarding fellow heirs, Jews and gentiles are fellow heirs. (Yes, someone with zero blood relation to Jacob, a pure gentile, is a fellow heir.) I'm part Jewish, by the way, Dan, my dad is Jewish.<br /><br />Regarding Hosea, in speaking to the house of Israel, Hosea says Israel will reunite with all Israel when they "seek after David their king in the last days" (Hosea 3).Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-24669844327197201332010-10-13T18:06:28.227-05:002010-10-13T18:06:28.227-05:00Judah,
will you clarify how do you tie Hosea to a...Judah,<br /><br />will you clarify how do you tie Hosea to all this?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62039491988360902952010-10-13T17:48:13.754-05:002010-10-13T17:48:13.754-05:00@Jesse
"the "ASSEMBLY", always was...@Jesse<br /><br />"the "ASSEMBLY", always was/is/will be Israel..."<br /><br />OK, forgive me if I am a bit slow on the update. The 'church' in the NT, means Israel. Therefore, Israel is no longer a nation, but instead is the body of people who follow Jesus, which can include Gentiles. That's what 'church' means in the NT, so if that's Israel, then the nation is NOT Israel, any more. That's a monumenatal shift, where does the Bible suggest that God would abandon the nation. Or are there two Israels, is that what 'two house' means ? How does calling the church the 'second Israel' change anything, in that case ? Does it simply mean that the church can expect all the promises made to Israel, despite them being also made to the nation ? This sounds very confusing to me, and like it's all hinging on a play on words. Call the church Israel or not, how does it matter, or change the specific promises in the Bible ? <br /><br />A few random verses:<br /><br />Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. <br /><br />How would it make sense that the original readers of this felt that it was talking about the elders of Israel, the nation that surely existed and had elders at that time ?<br /><br />Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: <br /><br />Surely this doesn't refer to all of Israel ?<br /><br />The most I can see is that you're claiming a synonym in meaning between Israel and the church, as both being bodies of people called out and chosen by God. I have no argument with that, but they are still two seperate bodies, with different roles and different promises in my mind. In that case, I don't see how getting fixated on the word 'church' changes anything or makes any real point. I'm obviously missing something, so please explain.<br /><br />@Judah - Jews are, by definition, 2 1/2 tribes. Jews are Israel, but is Israel only Jews ?Christian Graushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13444285493681626756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66557369625443318022010-10-13T17:42:01.981-05:002010-10-13T17:42:01.981-05:00Judah,
You are a little ambiguous with the terms ...Judah,<br /><br />You are a little ambiguous with the terms "Jews" and "Jewish." Do you think that the Jews who live in Israel today are all from the tribe of Judah? Therefore, when you say, "the regathering has already begun" you mena it started with the tribe of Judah?<br /><br />4) Eph. 3:6 says that the GENTILES are fellow heirs. didn;t you say you are Jewish?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18745829048034499422010-10-13T17:29:28.878-05:002010-10-13T17:29:28.878-05:00I thought I answered those questions. Except the l...I thought I answered those questions. Except the last one, it wasn't clear what you were asking.<br /><br />1) Yeah, I see the land of Israel as a very important part of the regathering of Israel. Obviously the regathering has already begun: Israel is in Jewish hands, for the first time in 2 millenia Jerusalem is in Jewish hands, and 6 million Jews are living in Israel. That's huge.<br /><br />2) No, I don't think Israel will be scattered again. <br /><br />3) Citizens of Israel are Israel. Of course, man! Jews are Israel.<br /><br />4) I'm not sure what you mean.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-42791165450516910152010-10-13T17:17:25.105-05:002010-10-13T17:17:25.105-05:00Judah,
"Judah,
So, you don't see the la...Judah,<br /><br />"Judah,<br /><br />So, you don't see the land of Israel as the regathering of Israel? It means that you also think that the nation of today can be destroyed and exiled again, right? That means that in your mind the citizens of the nation of Israel today are not really Israel, they are Jews from the tribe of Judah because you so decided?<br /><br />Why are you OK with being fellow heir, I thought you are a native born, are you not?"Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-42002331432746839322010-10-13T17:02:24.760-05:002010-10-13T17:02:24.760-05:00@Dan,
>> Then answer all my questions
Sir,...@Dan,<br /><br />>> <i>Then answer all my questions</i><br /><br />Sir, yes sir! :-) <br /><br />What would you like to know, my friend?Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-11710362537706394292010-10-13T17:00:28.062-05:002010-10-13T17:00:28.062-05:00@ CG,
The whole point of showing that the word &qu...@ CG,<br />The whole point of showing that the word "church" is added in text, and <b>SELECTIVELY </b>translated was to show you the the <b>"ASSEMBLY",</b> always was/is/will be <b>Israel</b>...<br /><br />Strong's H6951 "Assembly"<br />קהל<br />qâhâl<br />kaw-hawl<br />Appears 123 times in the O.T most referencing Israel.<br /><br />Strong's G1577 "Assembly"<br />ἐκκλησία<br />ekklēsia<br />ek-klay-see'-ah<br />Is used 114 times (most reference the assembly of believers)who are "grafted into Israel" (see Rom.11 & Eph 2)<br />And out of the 114 times, christian theologians only translated it "church" 68% of the time...<br /><br />CG, I can relate to what you said about trying to argue peacefully, violence is an easy tenancy for me as well, I can appreciate your attitude ~ Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-13456291143583952472010-10-13T16:46:16.135-05:002010-10-13T16:46:16.135-05:00Christian,
" In the meantime, Israel ( the p...Christian,<br /><br />" In the meantime, Israel ( the physical location ) continues to be a 'cup of trembling' to the nations, and that area a constant place of unrest."<br /><br />You should spend a little more time in the Tanach, you know the book that starts with Genesis and ends with Malachi?<br /><br />Prov. 13:24, Oh, it is also in the NT, Heb.12:6....<br /><br />"Whome the Father loves, he chastens."<br /><br />But why are you trying to hijack the Op, 2 house?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-33783130967105116612010-10-13T16:23:28.190-05:002010-10-13T16:23:28.190-05:00Judah,
"Not my intention to avoid anything.&...Judah,<br /><br />"Not my intention to avoid anything."<br /><br />Then answer all my questions.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.com