tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post6967887345301170407..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: #WhatOurLeadersBelieve, Kinzer editionJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22493292199954164892011-02-06T15:08:58.980-06:002011-02-06T15:08:58.980-06:00Did you guys miss this?
"Jews are born;"...Did you guys miss this?<br /><br />"Jews are born;"<br /><br />Than how can the writer Derek be a Jew?<br /><br />We learn something new every day from these so-called scholars, don't we?....Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-7585684436915202522011-02-05T17:47:56.713-06:002011-02-05T17:47:56.713-06:00"I was drawing attention to an interesting ob...<i>"I was drawing attention to an interesting observation: Yeshua-faithful Jews like Dan Benzvi (and half-Jews like myself) are frowned upon in MJTI circles because of our views on Torah and Israel, but Yeshua-denying Jews are to be welcomed."</i><br /><br />Himango, I am not familiar with your background at all and just caught this in one of your last posts. You classify yourself as a "half-jew". I am curious how you define that statement and how you ended up coining yourself one since even the most structured in the MJ movement (MJTI/MJRC) accept both patrilineal/matrilineal (directly verifiable that is)?zayinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89390470882097936222011-02-05T17:31:42.863-06:002011-02-05T17:31:42.863-06:00@James,
Here is what I was speaking of when I sa...@James, <br /><br />Here is what I was speaking of when I said that Judah was not quoting Mr. Kinzer in a vacuum.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.chosenpeople.com/symposium/page8.html" rel="nofollow">Burrough Park Symposium 2010</a><br /><br />There are also "negative boundary" discussions in the 2008 Kesher Journal.Rick Spurlockhttp://www.bereansonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22738923959162794772011-02-05T17:02:00.446-06:002011-02-05T17:02:00.446-06:00you have been saying for days that Kinzer does not...<i>you have been saying for days that Kinzer does not believe in the divinity of Yeshua, that he says one thing in public statements but backtracks and states it differently in more private venues.</i><br /><br />Nonsense. I did not accuse Mr. Kinzer of anything. I do not know, nor do I care what he "believes." <br /><br />I am not interested in creedal declarations myself; but some in BE make statements regarding "deity" and "divinity" that are interpreted by others as ontological and creedal when they are not necessarily intended that way. In some cases it is deceptive, in others a matter of hermeneutics. My comments were merely a caution that the words do not mean the same thing to all people. BE walks a tightrope trying to maintain a viable relationship with “trinitarian” Christianity while trying to find compatible language with traditional Judaism.Rick Spurlockhttp://www.bereansonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-705774686058194062011-02-05T05:15:04.435-06:002011-02-05T05:15:04.435-06:00Rick Spurlock:
I haven't been on here for a f...Rick Spurlock:<br /><br />I haven't been on here for a few days and this morning I find that you have been saying for days that Kinzer does not believe in the divinity of Yeshua, that he says one thing in public statements but backtracks and states it differently in more private venues.<br /><br />Not true.<br /><br />Please prove your accusation or retract it and publicly apologize.<br /><br />If you fail to do one or the other, we will know to take all your future comments as completely lacking in integrity.<br /><br />Derek LemanDerek Lemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03693937472641309402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-14965009147149812102011-02-04T15:30:34.414-06:002011-02-04T15:30:34.414-06:00I, on the other hand, seem to be all too upfront w...<i>I, on the other hand, seem to be all too upfront with my opinions and especially my questions.</i><br /><br />I don't know how that could be possible. There are far too many people in Messianic Judaism that are playing language games in order to keep from voicing their real position. I see FFOZ's shift in a different way. I saw their shift long before they made it public, in the way they split hairs in their use of words. I see the same issue in the so-called "deity" issue. Fearful of losing support, some are far too careful with what they say regarding the issue. <br /><br />I appreciate your candidness. Maybe the difference is you have no financial risk either way?Rick Spurlockhttp://www.bereansonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60972443892858394122011-02-04T15:06:54.725-06:002011-02-04T15:06:54.725-06:00What concerns me is folks saying one thing within ...<i>What concerns me is folks saying one thing within their circle, then crafting different language for those outside.</i><br /><br />I can agree with you there, Rick. Especially if organization is one which is trying to educate others in the ways of God, they have a responsibility to be transparent (unlike the Government) and express their actual, official stance. FFOZ did this abundantly when they changed their theological position and it cost them dearly.<br /><br />I, on the other hand, seem to be all too upfront with my opinions and especially my questions. Of course, on my "Searching" blog, I only represent myself and my primary student is me.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-65765379039288438852011-02-04T08:50:19.179-06:002011-02-04T08:50:19.179-06:00@James, I completely agree with you. I know and lo...@James, I completely agree with you. I know and love not just a few who do not think Messiah can be G-d. <br /><br />What concerns me is folks saying one thing within their circle, then crafting different language for those outside.<br /><br />Shabbat Shalom<br /><br />B"HRick Spurlockhttp://www.bereansonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81672910419612296142011-02-03T22:51:18.854-06:002011-02-03T22:51:18.854-06:00Michael,
Thanks for being concerned about me.
I...Michael,<br /><br />Thanks for being concerned about me. <br /><br />I was drawing attention to an interesting observation: Yeshua-faithful Jews like Dan Benzvi (and half-Jews like myself) are frowned upon in MJTI circles because of our views on Torah and Israel, but Yeshua-denying Jews are to be welcomed. My post was drawing attention to this. My post did not claim Kinzer rejects Yeshua in any way. <br /><br />If you are still concerned, feel free to contact me, I'm willing to listen.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-61079851020776812622011-02-03T18:47:10.024-06:002011-02-03T18:47:10.024-06:00Rick, I meant that the current quotes Judah posted...Rick, I meant that the current quotes Judah posted on his blog are extracted from a particular document. All I'm saying is that I'd like to read the whole document. Nothing more complicated than that.<br /><br />As far as the deity of Yeshua is concerned, I've posted a little something on <a href="http://searchingforthelightonthepath.blogspot.com/2011/02/deity-problem.html" rel="nofollow">my blog</a> and am playing (you should pardon the expression) "devil's advocate" with interesting results.<br /><br />The deity issue isn't just a matter of intellectual and scholarly debate, but one of high emotions as well. Regardless of whether or not a person believes the Messiah must be God, it doesn't make them "evil" for having that opinion. Virtually all observant (non-Messianic) Jews on earth don't believe that the coming Messiah is going to be God. <br /><br />Are they bad?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-67944972613954143632011-02-03T17:41:10.095-06:002011-02-03T17:41:10.095-06:00It wasn't a vacuum because we have previously ...It wasn't a vacuum because we have previously heard similar things. Kesher Journal has had hints of this thinking.<br /><br />When questioned, there is apparent backtracking. Words like "deity" and "divinity" are employed, when direct questions appear to be answered. Yet the words mean different things to different people. The fact is, there are serious questions as to BE's commitment to "I and the Father are One" understanding - at least among their so-called "elites."<br /><br />If you doubt that, dig deeper when you pose a question such as, "Do you believe in the deity of Yeshua?"<br /><br />"Yes" can mean something different than you think.Rick Spurlockhttp://www.bereansonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-85023361805305641772011-02-03T17:14:53.169-06:002011-02-03T17:14:53.169-06:00Actually, Kinzer's quotes are provided in a va...Actually, Kinzer's quotes are provided in a vacuum. I mentioned this before but didn't get a response. We have some quotes to something he said recently as posted in the body of Judah's blog, but we don't have the context of the entire document or recording. It would be helpful to know the "whole picture", so to speak.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-89679469510184791752011-02-03T16:24:28.918-06:002011-02-03T16:24:28.918-06:00Slander?At the very least such an accusation is h...<i>Slander</i>?At the very least such an accusation is hyperbole, more likely slander itself. To "slander" is to falsely accuse, to lie in order to damage another's reputation. The narrow limits of slander normally make those that accuse others of slander guilty of the crime themselves.<br /><br />The fact remains that Mr. Kinzer's quotes are not provided to us in a vacuum. They come as no surprise to many of us.Rick Spurlockhttp://www.bereansonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-37359579173648515762011-02-03T13:42:16.958-06:002011-02-03T13:42:16.958-06:00I think I got that, Gene.
In my small congregatio...I think I got that, Gene.<br /><br />In my small congregation, we sometimes get many guests from all walks of life and theological perspectives. All of them are welcome, but that doesn't mean all of them will stay. <br /><br />We are upfront about what we believe and we teach out of those beliefs. People can either choose to accept our beliefs and join us or, if we're not a good fit, they can go elsewhere. It's been rare that we've had to ask anyone to leave, but it happens every so often, if they're particularly disruptive.<br /><br />Accept everyone into the house of God (people coming completely out of left field won't even approach, so you almost never have to deal with them). The vast majority of folks who have theologies at odds with the congregation's beliefs and values won't stay. Why not accept non-believing Jews and even the occasional OL or TH person into an MJ synagogue (and keep in mind, most OL/TH people won't choose to enter a BE organized group)?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18824203215418825662011-02-03T13:25:25.370-06:002011-02-03T13:25:25.370-06:00"In other words, if a non-Messianic Jew wante..."In other words, if a non-Messianic Jew wanted to "check out" Messianic Judaism, would you keep him or her from entering the synagogue until they became Messianic?"<br /><br />I think the reason behind Judah's post about Kinzer is twofold:<br /><br />1. To cast doubt on Kinzer's commitment to Yeshua (to make him seem that he's willing to minimize Yeshua or an importan part of who he is to be accepted by mainstream Judaism).<br /><br />2. To make a comparison between Messianic Jews' rejection of One-Law and Two-House theologies and acceptance of Jews who do not hold to Yeshua's divinity. Judah is asking why reject OL/TH beliefs but embrace those (Judah forgets to mention that "those" are Jews) who don't even believe in Yeshua!<br /><br />Not necessarily in the above order.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-47060014965135359342011-02-03T13:12:24.253-06:002011-02-03T13:12:24.253-06:00"...and what he was arguing for is that Messi...<i>"...and what he was arguing for is that Messianic Jewish congregations not exclude Jewish non-Yeshua believers from our midst, in a continuity of peoplehood."</i><br /><br />Arguments about the differences between Jews and Christians aside, is this really so different than allowing "seekers" (non-believing people "exploring" Christianity but who have not made a "decision for Christ") to attend a church with Christians?<br /><br />In other words, if a non-Messianic Jew wanted to "check out" Messianic Judaism, would you keep him or her from entering the synagogue until they became Messianic?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-34186990057332895412011-02-03T12:55:20.177-06:002011-02-03T12:55:20.177-06:00Judah, Mark Kinzer is one of my VERY close friend...Judah, Mark Kinzer is one of my VERY close friends, and in all fairness, you have completely mis-characterized his position, and it borders on Lashon Hara. Kinzer was NOT arguing as you say. I was at the forum, I have had many conversations with Kinzer personally, and what he was arguing for is that Messianic Jewish congregations not exclude Jewish non-Yeshua believers from our midst, in a continuity of peoplehood. He holds to the divinity of Yeshua, but realizes that Yeshua is Messiah not just of Jews who believe in Him, but also of those who do not. That is not how you are mis-characterizing him. <br /><br />Judah, I appreciate you... but if you are going to go on a witch hunt, realize that you are slandering someone of high moral and ethical integrity, and the Lord will require it of you. I'm honestly saying this out of concern, not accusation.<br /><br />MichaelDr. Schiffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09056277867894890544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-91032551141333724552011-02-03T10:46:51.938-06:002011-02-03T10:46:51.938-06:00Besides, both you and I wrote on Bilateral Ecclesi...<i>Besides, both you and I wrote on Bilateral Ecclesiology, in the way, I believe, that is easier for most folks to grasp. In fact, if you search for "Bilateral Ecclesiology" on Google, both of our blogs are on the first page of search results!</i><br /><br />We're famous! :D<br /><br />Just kidding.<br /><br /><i><br />I believe that Deity of Moshiach is the most doctrine if not right there with the most important doctrine in Scripture! I think that many in the Messianic movement are denying the Deity of Yeshua is because they want to be accepted really bad by the Orthadox community (non believers).<br />Now I would really want to be accepted by the Orthadox community also but are we to do that at the expense of denying the Deity of Yeshua? That's a compromise that can't be made, at least for me!</i><br /><br />Since the "Deity issue" has taken on a life of it's own yet again, I thought I'd blog on it today: <a href="http://searchingforthelightonthepath.blogspot.com/2011/02/deity-problem.html" rel="nofollow">The Deity Problem</a>.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66644771788376847372011-02-03T10:00:59.233-06:002011-02-03T10:00:59.233-06:00"Sometimes, it's important to limit your ..."Sometimes, it's important to limit your audience because of the needs of your audience. If Kinzer intends to deliver his message only to educated and scholarly people, then his message is worded correctly."<br /><br />Which would be fine - after all, it is the leaders who DO interact with the "masses" (I don't like this word) who will have to actually implement the practical aspects of the theology and explain it to lay people.<br /><br />Besides, both you and I wrote on Bilateral Ecclesiology, in the way, I believe, that is easier for most folks to grasp. In fact, if you search for "Bilateral Ecclesiology" on Google, both of our blogs are on the first page of search results!Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-71866206567840072862011-02-03T09:23:38.773-06:002011-02-03T09:23:38.773-06:00Some people can only handle a Honda or Toyota...ot...Some people can only handle a Honda or Toyota...others need the Cadillac...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-43375087582604002712011-02-03T09:21:13.549-06:002011-02-03T09:21:13.549-06:00James, Yeshua mostly spoke to the public in crypti...<i>James, Yeshua mostly spoke to the public in cryptic parables that he later had to explain to his disciples (who mostly didn't get it) in private. I suppose he too could be criticized for being "too intellectual" for his audience (and may be he was!). In fact, he was asked to say things "plainly"!</i><br /><br />Yeshua had a reason for speaking cryptically. It wasn't as if he was unconscious of what he was doing. He deliberately hid the full meaning of his messages from the masses. I don't think that is Kinzer's intent here.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be mean to Kinzer and I'm not saying he has to write for kindergartners, but he writes scholarly papers. That's what he does well. But can he, or anyone in authority in the MJTI, take the same material and communicate it to a wider audience?<br /><br />Gene, I'm a professional writer and I work with software developers every day. I have to take what they've produced and write documentation that is appropriate to other developers who work for our customers. I also have to take that same information and rewrite it so it's understandable to the CEOs and other decision makers for those same customers (and most of these decision makers don't have the same technical understanding as their IT staff).<br /><br />There are many, many people of faith who could benefit from the information being presented by MJTI, but who won't get past the first 10 pages because the information was written for a more erudite audience.<br /><br />Gene, I know English isn't your first language and I'm always amazed at people who are bilingual. It's certainly not one of my gifts. I know you are intelligent and educated and are able to comprehend all this material. However, we have a tendency to believe people everywhere are just like us, and they're not. It's important to try to see a piece of documentation from points of view that aren't always our own.<br /><br />Having a background in both writing and psychology helps me understand the art of communication and how we can limit our message by how we present it. Sometimes, it's important to limit your audience because of the needs of your audience. If Kinzer intends to deliver his message only to educated and scholarly people, then his message is worded correctly. That also means that "everyone else" isn't expected to receive any of Kinzer's information, or at least not from his documentation.<br /><br />In a nutshell, that's the issue I have with these scholarly papers. I'm not personally criticizing Kinzer, I'm merely pointing out the boundaries that contain and limit his message. Again, if his intent is to limit his data, that's fine. We just need to be clear that what he presents isn't for general consumption.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-76336270665190916762011-02-03T08:12:23.637-06:002011-02-03T08:12:23.637-06:00Shalom,
I believe that Deity of Moshiach is the m...Shalom,<br /><br />I believe that Deity of Moshiach is the most doctrine if not right there with the most important doctrine in Scripture! I think that many in the Messianic movement are denying the Deity of Yeshua is because they want to be accepted really bad by the Orthadox community (non believers). <br />Now I would really want to be accepted by the Orthadox community also but are we to do that at the expense of denying the Deity of Yeshua? That's a compromise that can't be made, at least for me!<br /><br />How can the Eternal Word of G-d that came down from Heaven be anything less?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-24126583269167567342011-02-03T08:09:31.887-06:002011-02-03T08:09:31.887-06:00"Kinzer may be very well educated, but he onl..."Kinzer may be very well educated, but he only seems to be able to write to an audience with a university level education. The whole world of faith isn't made up of Ph.Ds"<br /><br />James, Yeshua mostly spoke to the public in cryptic parables that he later had to explain to his disciples (who mostly didn't get it) in private. I suppose he too could be criticized for being "too intellectual" for his audience (and may be he was!). In fact, he was asked to say things "plainly"!<br /><br />However, what I don't get is the whole "Kinzer... could only communicate with a rather limited audience." I've read his works, but I've never had any issues understanding the points Kinzer makes - and English is not even my first language!<br /><br />True, Kinzer doesn't write Sunday sermons that small children can grasp. It's up to the teachers, like yourself, to "translate" difficult things of theology to the level of the called "masses".<br /><br />Paul too was accused of "intellectualism" by those who couldn't take his message. Remember this bit:<br /><br />"At this point Festus interrupted Paul's defense. "You are out of your mind, Paul!" he shouted. "Your great learning is driving you insane." (Acts 26:24)<br /><br />What was Paul's reply to this:<br /><br />"I am not insane, most excellent Festus," Paul replied. "What I am saying is true and reasonable."Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-81530484280543157092011-02-03T05:46:49.023-06:002011-02-03T05:46:49.023-06:00It's just, sometimes, intellectuals tend to in...<i>It's just, sometimes, intellectuals tend to intellectualize everything. :-) And they often lose touch with the common folk, the mundane needs of the regular people.</i><br /><br />That's been my concern about some of these scholarly papers as well. While J.K. McKee says there are <i>intellectuals who promote a meritocracy, wanting to promote an ethic of hard work and high achievement in everybody</i>, part of the problem is the language of the message. Kinzer may be very well educated, but he only seems to be able to write to an audience with a university level education. The whole world of faith isn't made up of Ph.Ds<br /><br />I've known writers like Kinzer who could only communicate with a rather limited audience, but I've also known writers of equal education and intelligence who were able to transmit the same information to a much wider group, all because they could adapt themselves to be able to write to that wider group. <br /><br />The MJTI needs to find a writer with the ability to project a "broader voice".Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-35821444514339807952011-02-03T01:17:17.443-06:002011-02-03T01:17:17.443-06:00Judah,
I don't see in your original posting w...Judah,<br /><br />I don't see in your original posting where you get the conclusion that the MJTI "argues Messianics who deny Yeshua’s divinity are OK, but Yeshua-faithful Messianics who broaden the application of Torah, or who broaden the composition of Israel, are Not-OK." The quote from the MJTI doesn't mention the later half of your conclusion.<br /><br />Be that as it may, I know from personal experience that there are people in the Messianic community who feel that the One-Law or Two-House controversy is much more important than the Deity of Yeshua.<br /><br />I, on the other hand, can't think of any issue that is more important than the Deity "question."<br /><br />If Yeshua is God, and one refuses to worship Him, it is blasphemy. If Yeshua is not God, and one does worship Him, it is idoletry.<br /><br />In both cases, the penalty under the Torah is death. This is serious business.<br /><br />There is no similer penalty for believing that non-Jews should obey the Torah.David Messerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825478896935570268noreply@blogger.com