tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post4692066772023151766..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Jesus, Not IsraelJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-19569442367368059332011-11-06T12:50:19.566-06:002011-11-06T12:50:19.566-06:00When I first saw this, I thought it was an SAT que...When I first saw this, I thought it was an SAT question, meaning we are to choose the one pair that is most unlike the others. But, given that we have no context or explanation of what the author means by these pairs, I will, like others here, assume that he is saying that the pattern is the same and that Israel is done away with or even hated in light of the presence of it's own Messiah and for having rejected His salvation. How absurd! Would a bridegroom abandon His Bride? Would a Righteous King hate His own people? Does Piper have a bias against Israel? Is he saying that the salvation belief thru Israel is not the same salvation offered thru Messiah Yeshua, the embodiment of all that is Israel? Piper’s view of Israel might just be rooted in a profoundly twisted replacement understanding that infects most mainstream Christian denominations. One can imagine the process continuing with things like Grace not Law; Sunday not Sabbath; Easter not Passover; New not Old, etc. Of course, the problem is rooted in the severing of the Church from it’s foundational roots in Israel. Christianity codified its’ identity by chopping off its’ roots planted in the Hebraic soil of the early Jewish believers and their idea of the congregation rooted in the Kahal(congregation) of Israel and by further defining itself as simply “not Jewish”, it then separated from all things Jewish and left God’s chosen nation Israel on the cutting floor of things not to be taught as part of the New Faith. (See numerous articles at Jewish-Christian Relations at jcrelations.net for teaching on the history of early Christianity, especially Anne Amos’ article called “The Parting of the Ways”) The myth here perpetuated by Piper is that Israel rejected in TOTAL the salvation of Yeshua and is therefore rejected by God.<br /><br />This is false. Pauls use of the term "in Messiah" is not meant to replace the term "in Israel". The first does not nullify the later, rather it means that to place ones faith and trust in the Messiah of Israel is to be included among the people who have entered Israel’s covenants, hence, believers in Messiah are also “in Israel” having been grafted into the covenant olive tree that is the Biblical Israel. Thus, the message of the gospel is taken to the ends of the earth by those who are "in Israel" and it is the same salvation by faith message believed upon by the faithful Patriarchs and Israelites of old. Peter in Act15:10-11 says that "we believe that through the grace of Messiah Yeshua, we shall be saved in the same manner as they".Scott Nickersonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-71782344498378751452011-11-04T17:26:26.820-05:002011-11-04T17:26:26.820-05:00"Also anyone who makes it to heaven will have..."Also anyone who makes it to heaven will have to enter one of the 12 gates of the sons of Israel (Rev 21:12)" -James<br /><br />I infer you (James) are implying that the Royal Priesthood of Saints will enter New Jerusalem through the Gate of Levi.<br /><br />The simplifies that paradigm.<br /><br />Others agree? Or not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-8520312686596630172011-11-04T16:27:48.856-05:002011-11-04T16:27:48.856-05:00I've contacted Piper and pointed him to this d...I've contacted Piper and pointed him to this discussion. I'll let you guys know if there's any response.<br /><br />For now, I'm taking off for shabbat. (One of those things Jesus did not replace! Heheh) <br /><br />Have a good shabbat and weekend, folks.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-177545977202341942011-11-04T16:07:27.814-05:002011-11-04T16:07:27.814-05:00in almost every comment i have stated salvation, t...in almost every comment i have stated salvation, that Jesus said there is One way, that Jesus came to save. He came to save us from our sins. i have brought forgiveness up. i believe He loves His children. I believe that He loves the people He has made. It says that "He is not slow concerning His promise...but that He desires that none should perish." anyway, ok. i belive in living in Biblical truth. So, i guess i can be perceived in any way, but I know in Whom i have believed, and that primary to everything is that we are all sinners, saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, forgiven of our sins, if we will bow the knee and call on Him. That is primary.<br />~j <br />Peace also to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-40645763099546945972011-11-04T16:07:09.799-05:002011-11-04T16:07:09.799-05:00Jeanette,
Regarding Luther, even though he had ma...Jeanette,<br /><br />Regarding Luther, even though he had many good teachings, such as saved-by-grace theology, he unfortunately practiced replacement theology, which developed into anti-Semitism (hatred of Jewish people).<br /><br />Luther wrote a book called <i>On The Jews and Their Lies</i>, and in it he wrote the following:<br /><br /><i>"The Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God."</i><br /><br />This is the heart of replacement theology: that God replaced Israel with Christianity.<br /><br />Piper's statement that God chose Jesus, and not Israel, appears to be the same line of thinking.<br /><br />I'll contact Piper and see if he has any comments.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-35143182919735550472011-11-04T15:55:00.432-05:002011-11-04T15:55:00.432-05:00This is the first time you've brought up the q...This is the first time you've brought up the question of forgiveness for sins. Up to this point, your questions all amounted to, "Does God love Jews or Christians more?" and your underlying assumption has been, "God loves the Gentile Christian more than He loves the Jew who doesn't believe in Jesus."<br /><br />Implicit in that assumption is that Christians have become "the" children of Abraham, and non-Christian Jews have ceased to have that distiction. Again, classic Replacement Theology.<br /><br />You have to choose for yourself whether you accept that label or whether you choose to re-evaluate your Israelology.<br /><br />ShalomMichael Bugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12196330988164511595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-2454100906805304872011-11-04T15:43:15.090-05:002011-11-04T15:43:15.090-05:00ok... He loves everyone unconditionlaly though. Sa...ok... He loves everyone unconditionlaly though. Salvation, is thru Christ alone, right? So, simply because someone is Jewish, does not imply that they are trusting in Jesus Christ,God's Son, to save them from their sins...anymore than i can say that since i have Italian blood that i am an Italian citizen. I am really trying to understand this, and just clarify... i hope you can "hear" my heart in this..<br />~jAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-12564270189189494272011-11-04T15:35:51.239-05:002011-11-04T15:35:51.239-05:00Yes, but you're still exhibiting classic Repla...Yes, but you're still exhibiting classic Replacement Theology thinking by restricting God's love only to Jews who "have called on the name of Jesus for salvation." Scripture makes it clear that God's love for Israel is unconditional, just as He commanded Hosea's love for his harlot wife to be.<br /><br />ShalomMichael Bugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12196330988164511595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-22254913675329356892011-11-04T15:32:09.438-05:002011-11-04T15:32:09.438-05:00@michael,
appreciate your observations...makes me...@michael, <br />appreciate your observations...makes me think some more. okay, here are my thoughts..<br /><br />we are the children of Abraham through the Spirit of adoption. That is what i said. nowhere in there is any superiority. I am simply stating that we are equal with the blood-line children of Abraham. One is NOT superior over the other, if you have called on the name of Jesus for salvation. Does that clarify my thought on that?<br /><br />I am thinking of it in this way.. I have many friends who have adopted. One has 3 biological children, one adopted, and another adoption in the works. They have received, with humble hearts, this daughter from Ethiopia. I know for certain that they do not look at their biological children as superior in any way to the adopted child. Nor do they look at the adopted child as superior to thier biological. I think that is the best picture i can give to express how i view it. I am humbled, and amazed that God has allowed me to be a part of His family.<br />~jeanetteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-3438911617255467592011-11-04T15:23:07.310-05:002011-11-04T15:23:07.310-05:00@ Jeanette - "i am one who believes that the ...@ Jeanette - "i am one who believes that the church and believing Jews are all one in Christ. we (the believing gentiles) are the children of Abraham through the Spirit of adoption."<br /><br />I agree with everything in the above sentence except the second "the." By saying that Christians are "the" children of Abraham you put yourself in an exclusive position over the Jews--and that is the heart of Replacement Theology.<br /><br />ShalomMichael Bugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12196330988164511595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-56565052142201370262011-11-04T15:07:31.177-05:002011-11-04T15:07:31.177-05:00i hear you. i appreciate your response. i am one w...i hear you. i appreciate your response. i am one who believes that the church and believing Jews are all one in Christ. we (the believing gentiles) are the children of Abraham through the Spirit of adoption. I am wondering if you have listened the past week or more to Dr. R.C. Sproul's series on Luther? I have found it interesting. Luther's point was that we are saved by faith through grace alone. Where do you get replacement theology in what he did? Everything i have heard has not mentioned that at all. He wanted the indulgences to stop. He faced a crisis of faith...Jesus alone, or all these things he witnessed in Rome? i would encourage you to listen to his series. <br /><br /><br /> i believe that God has a plan for Israel according to what is written in Revelation. I honestly don't understand the absolute outworking of it, as none of us fully can grasp it. But that does not mean that those of us outside of Israel are no less chosen. 1 Peter 2:9 states that we are a royal priesthood, a chosen generation. That was written to ALL who believe. Christ said that there is ONLY ONE WAY to come to the Father, THROUGH Him. so, why all this division? honestly.. we are all in Christ. We all know (don't we) that salvation comes to ALL and ANY who call on the name of Jesus and confess Him as Lord? <br /><br />Piper states that all throughout time, God has chosen a line.. and narrowed it down each time. Christ is the fulfillment, but that does not negate the role of Israel (believing Israel) in the end. It seems like offense is being picked up where no offense was meant. maybe even call Piper, or email him with your thoughts/concerns. <br /><br />I struggle with how unkind some of your commenters have been. really. i hesitated to comment. Assumptions have been made regarding Christianity as a whole, calling many scholars blind. Saying that Piper is Biblically unsound. Why? Some of these comments sound outright arrogant to me. We can speak the truth in LOVE, which seems to be missing in some of the commenting here. Piper is not the heretic he is being made to be, and i would encourage anyone who is questioning this to go directly to him and have a conversation. He is local, and you just might be surprised to find out that a judgement against him has been cast prematurely. <br /><br />I, again, am not trying to be divisive, Judah. Just working through this as i see it. Thanks (and yes, it is the J that you know)... <br />~jeanetteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-25320232551679897192011-11-04T13:55:11.494-05:002011-11-04T13:55:11.494-05:00Hi Jeanette (are you the Jeanette I know in person...Hi Jeanette (are you the Jeanette I know in person?)<br /><br />Let me respond to your comments:<br /><br /><i>"1. Piper never says anything against Israel, and i believe this was taken out of context. We ought not to serve a godly man up for lunch. Doesn't sound like there is any grace here for anyone."</i><br /><br />Piper said, when speaking of chosenness, "Jesus, not Israel." The problem with that statement is that it implies Israel is no longer chosen. That's the definition of replacement theology: Israel has been replaced by Jesus and Christianity.<br /><br />Our leaders are not infallible. That Piper is wrong about Israel doesn't mean he some horrible person unloved by God.<br /><br />It's important for us to speak out about replacement theology because it has resulted in centuries of persecution of Jewish people by Christians. Martin Luther's replacement theology and eventual hatred of Jews contributed to Germany's eventual Holocaust of the Jews, for example.<br /><br /><i>"2. A question that has been on my mind... do you all really believe that God loves a Jew that believes in Jesus Christ as Messiah, more than He loves a Gentile that believes in Christ as Messiah? Cuz that is what comes across."</i><br /><br />No. No one has implied that Jesus-following Jews are more loved than Jesus-following gentiles. The issue at hand is not who God loves more. It's whether God replaced Israel when he sent Jesus.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-62129635285536848042011-11-04T13:26:21.277-05:002011-11-04T13:26:21.277-05:00Judah,
Great post!Judah,<br /><br />Great post!rebyoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788490545225603293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50185082818021329042011-11-04T12:56:11.524-05:002011-11-04T12:56:11.524-05:00so, i have read this, Pipers blog, read and all th...so, i have read this, Pipers blog, read and all these comments. two things: 1. Piper never says anything against Israel, and i believe this was taken out of context. We ought not to serve a godly man up for lunch. Doesn't sound like there is any grace here for anyone. 2. A question that has been on my mind... do you all really believe that God loves a Jew that believes in Jesus Christ as Messiah, more than He loves a Gentile that believes in Christ as Messiah? Cuz that is what comes across. <br />~jeanette (i would appreciate not being insulted as this gets answered. i am sincerely wondering.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66354457531982815002011-11-02T23:03:44.832-05:002011-11-02T23:03:44.832-05:00Hey Judah, Truly, you can never be “too sensitive”...Hey Judah, Truly, you can never be “too sensitive” in the monstrous face of the many and varied replacement theologies alive and well in the Church today. While I don’t personally believe Piper meant what this could very easily be interpreted to mean, Christianity’s love affair with morphing every concept into some clever, consumable cliche or catchphrase is clearly to blame here. You can only economize a thought so far before it risks losing the intended (or all) meaning. No matter what we may think, though, the responsibility to clarify this message is Piper's alone.<br /><br />The bigger issue here is simply one of communication. As I said, the responsibility that a message is communicated effectively lay with the speaker – not his audience. Deep, theological ideas do not belong in vague, truncated tweets – and Twitter symbolizes nothing more than the utter degradation of communication and understanding within our generation – all in the name of being hip, in my opinion. Couple spouting off whatever may cross your mind with being able to reach thousands of people instantaneously, and you've got the perfect disaster. To further compound the issue, the Church has long since swallowed the line that to stay “relevant” in today’s culture, you must be vague, clever, and hip at the same time – therefore, reinforcing errant views and teaching others to do the same – all in 140 characters or less.Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05575110651129425906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-19551393832919194112011-11-02T09:26:44.815-05:002011-11-02T09:26:44.815-05:00I agree that gentiles join to the promises of Isra...I agree that gentiles join to the promises of Israel through Messiah. Ephesians 2.<br /><br />However, I would not say that we "become Jews by being grafted into the Jewish tree."<br /><br />Gentiles are not Jews. Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel through Messiah, but they are not Jews.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-14642473746383328512011-11-02T08:42:11.590-05:002011-11-02T08:42:11.590-05:00"Does anyone believe that we don't go up ..."Does anyone believe that we don't go up to Heaven but 'Heaven' comes down to us?" --James<br /><br />Is it that Heaven will come down to earth? Or, is it that New Jerusalem (which He went to prepare) will come down FROM Heaven so that the Kingdom of God will be on earth?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50122085044020131482011-11-02T01:25:46.426-05:002011-11-02T01:25:46.426-05:00Exactly, Michael Bugg. Romans 11 describes the Ge...Exactly, Michael Bugg. Romans 11 describes the Gentiles, as wild branches, being grafted into the tree of Israel, with some natural branches being broken off. That is why salvation is from the Jews. We become Jews by being grafted into the Jewish tree.<br /><br />But at some point in the future, all Israel will be saved (Rom 11:26). Israel is still a distinct and special people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-13964113985540428072011-11-01T07:36:27.434-05:002011-11-01T07:36:27.434-05:00Or to put it another way, Gentiles are adopted int...Or to put it another way, Gentiles are adopted into the family--they don't replace the natural children or take their names.<br /><br />ShalomMichael Bugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12196330988164511595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-45233738668590810962011-11-01T01:24:28.362-05:002011-11-01T01:24:28.362-05:00"if you want to be saved, you must become a J..."if you want to be saved, you must become a Jew."<br /><br />Isn't that the essence of replacement theology? Non-Jews becoming Jews? And what happens when a Jew gets saved? Does he become a double Jew?<br /><br />The Bible says that we are grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel. It doesn't say we become Jews.David Messerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825478896935570268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-45169869311878316182011-10-31T21:55:26.986-05:002011-10-31T21:55:26.986-05:00As someone who is very familiar with John Piper...As someone who is very familiar with John Piper's teaching, I can unequivocally say that you have misinterpreted his tweet. He is adamantly NOT a replacement theologian and has made that clear many, many times, including in the actual recent sermon about Isaac and Ishmael (<a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/how-the-offspring-of-isaac-blesses-the-sons-of-ishmael" rel="nofollow">available here</a>).<br /><br />My guess is that the point of that phrase in his tweet was to point out God's election throughout history, choosing of one person over another, and in particular with the coming of Jesus, opening salvation from just Israel to all the nations.<br /><br />But he is most definitely NOT a replacement theologian, and has talked about the special nature of Israel many times, particularly in relation to Romans 11. In fact a phrase he often uses is "if you want to be saved, you must become a Jew." (I hope the meaning of that phrase is obvious to anyone familiar with Scripture)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-72779190561981780382011-10-31T17:06:49.443-05:002011-10-31T17:06:49.443-05:00James,
I agree. It is the hellenistic platonic m...James,<br /><br />I agree. It is the hellenistic platonic minset of the western world that fuels the notion that we are going out of here to a party in the sky.Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-34459386945109604562011-10-31T16:40:59.800-05:002011-10-31T16:40:59.800-05:00@James, exactly!
- JMH@James, exactly!<br /> - JMHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70136929261337713342011-10-31T14:52:14.725-05:002011-10-31T14:52:14.725-05:00Rick,
One can have Calvinistic leaning and still ...Rick,<br /><br />One can have Calvinistic leaning and still put yeshua at the center. Tim Hegg is an example.<br /><br />BTW, guys, I resumed writing in my blog, check it out.Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-23721331415992686102011-10-31T12:39:09.769-05:002011-10-31T12:39:09.769-05:00Hi Judah
I think that in your desire to restore t...Hi Judah<br /><br />I think that in your desire to restore the Jew to what you consider his rightful place in the plan of redemption, you downplay the role of Jesus – unwittingly, of course.<br /><br />I explain here<br />http://onedaringjew.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/the-jews-role-in-salvation-and-the-future-of-ethnic-israel/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com