tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post4467938861578320213..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: On Heresy and Messianic FragmentationJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50554657212870951572009-07-01T13:49:49.564-05:002009-07-01T13:49:49.564-05:00Hi friend;
The problem as i see it is calling Mess...Hi friend;<br />The problem as i see it is calling Messianic Christianity, - Messianic Judaism. This is a definite shift since the 1970's.<br /> <br />What's in a name? _Everything.<br />MC augmented Christianity and the Church; basically it was a support group/halfway house for newly Completed Jews and an education resource for non Hebrew Christians. It supported the Church and did not divide it. We would meet on Friday evenings but all worshiped at their home churches on Sundays.<br /><br />Today, MJ is becoming a splinter group from God's Church. It meets separately from other Christians. Messianic Judaism today seems convinced that the Body of Christ on earth is just a big bunch of mistakes and errors. That it's been so since the first Apostles and followers. It's arrogant to think that Jesus would allow His church to be in error for 2,000yrs. I don't mean it was without fault, but basically the Church is what it's bridegroom wants it to be. To believe that it's taken 2,000yrs and the arrival of Messianic Christians to get the church straightened out, also reveals a lack of Faith in God being in control.<br />Of great concern to me is the legalism which has overtaken M.J. If a Christian brother or sister wishes to worship on Saturday, - the Sabbath, he/she is FREE to do so. But the Christians who celebrate the Lord's Day -Sunday, are also not in error. Sunday was not added later by Constantine (as some claim), but was observed by the first generation Christians. There are many legitimate reasons to do celebrate on the Lord's day. As Apostle Paul said we are free in Christ Jesus, - let no man judge you according to days or Sabbaths.<br />Which brings me to my last but perhaps my greatest concern with what has happened to the Messianic movement in the last 35 yrs - the topic of St Paul. <br />You can hardly do a Google search without finding pages by messianic groups who are calling Paul an apostate, not a real follower of Christ, etc etc. <br />Why?? <br />I believe it is because Paul defined the Church and what it means to be free in Christ. he laid out how the OT Law is completed in Jesus, and many other tenets of the Church. <br />The "Judaizers" in the messianic movement need to get rid of Paul and his teachings so as to pull the flock further into legalism. I could go on and on with this subject - such as why Gentile Christians can never never be a Messianic Jew (as I read many claiming to be, or wanting to be). Messianic Christianity for former non believing Jews who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah - is awesome. It is sincere, completes who they are, reflects their traditions and heritage. But for Gentile Christians it's sythetic to be referring to Jesus as Yeshua Hamashia or God as YHWA - because these people are not Jewish. If there's one thing Jesus hated it was phoniness. I was active in Jewish evangelism in the '70's but some of the changes I'm seeing are scary - headed to legalism. Many of the Messianic fellowship "traditions" such as the pierced matzoh hidden in white linen were not even in pexistance in Jesus' day but added centuries later by medieval eastern European Jews. I don't mean to offend, I say this with love. But the Legalism, the splitting with the body of Christ (where by the way the is neither Jew nor Gentile, Slave nor Free etc), the growing hostility to Paul's credentials, are all issues not to be taken lightly<br />BlessingsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-69700791909241552792009-06-11T02:19:31.720-05:002009-06-11T02:19:31.720-05:00I think we all tend to forget that this "body...I think we all tend to forget that this "body" of Messiah is hidden in plain sight. We can not forget the first century followers, such as the original apostles and talmidim are part of that body. But those who were, but are now asleep, waiting, and us, make up the kingdom. Each leader tries to walk in the way Messiah brought to us, the more perfect way. But I think the spleen of this body may have actually been in the 5th Century, and His mouth speaks then, and now, and in every country. It's not what we expect. The fragmenting is revivings. They are new shoots over and over and over again because people get born from above. And we all like sheep go astray. And come back, hopefully. Peter did. Paul did. John said if any man denies he still sins, he lies. It only makes sense that God would be reincorporating Jews, and His lost ones back in end time. But that does not mean only those of us who are aware of our Hebrew beginnings and that whole thought process are the only righteous ones. I knew I was a Messianic in 1986. But was not computer literate until well into the 21st Century. And so, never met anyone else who knew they were Messianic until in 1999. That first meeting caused me to have to deal with such basics! Stuff no Protestant even considers, let alone spends the 2 years it took me to discover my own stands on. I didn't even know the East Coast US is loaded with Messianic congregation to ask them anything. What makes members of Messiah's beloved on this earth is individuals. All through time. Before Y'shua, during his time, and ever since. With more to come. Looking at the state of Catholicism was depressing if one wanted to see "the Church." It is likewise when we look at Protestantism. And the same for Messianism. Leaders are to help newbies and weaker ones walk straight towards God. But no one replaces Y'shua, God's own unadulterated Word.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60870196230191472492009-02-25T14:50:00.000-06:002009-02-25T14:50:00.000-06:00Aaron,Thanks, that clarifies it.Mainly what I'm si...Aaron,<BR/><BR/>Thanks, that clarifies it.<BR/><BR/><I>Mainly what I'm sick of seeing is freelance, renegade, lone-ranger "Pabbi/Rastor" setting up his own interpretation of the Bible apart from all others, and raising up his brand of 'Messiah-based-faith', if you will.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, I think you're not alone there.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-63859243742057975032009-02-25T14:25:00.000-06:002009-02-25T14:25:00.000-06:00Judah, you said:"Aaron,Thanks for your input. I th...Judah, you said:<BR/><BR/>"<I>Aaron,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your input. I think one area we disagree is on the need to formally convert to a Judaism.<BR/><BR/>Derek is formally converting to Messianic Judaism. You have said that you believe conversion to Nazarene Judaism is necessary. I know James Trimm adheres to that idea too.<BR/><BR/>I've followed the Nazarenes for awhile. I have some reservations about them, JK McKee sums them up here. Could you answer these reservations in a respectful way?<BR/><BR/>Shalom, bro.</I>"<BR/><BR/>If there is no formality whatsoever, you will reap in division. Its like trying to hold water in your hands instead of putting it into a glass.<BR/>At this point in time, I don't believe there necessarily needs to be any formal conversion. Most importantly the process has to be done in a straightforward manner, and not wishy-washy. Its a BIG thing to transform from an gentile into an Israelite, its nothing to be taken lightly or have its lines blurred.<BR/><BR/>The link you sent mentions nothing much at all about the beliefs of Nazarene Judaism, especially not the incredible parallels between Pharisaic and Essene Judaisms of the day.<BR/><BR/>Mainly what I'm sick of seeing is freelance, renegade, lone-ranger "Pabbi/Rastor" setting up his own interpretation of the Bible apart from all others, and raising up his brand of 'Messiah-based-faith', if you will.<BR/><BR/>An ancient Nazarene historian called Hegis'fa ("Hegisspus") said the pagan gentile Christians came "with bare and uplifted head, proclaiming departure from the Truth" (i.e. Torah; Ps.119:142).<BR/>Lo and behold, the year Rav Shaul died, a man named Ignatius, called "Bishop of Antioch" came proclaiming a new religion and a departure from Judaism (quite plainly in his epistles).<BR/>Jude 1:3 tells us there was only ONE Faith once and for all delivered to the kadoshim (set-apart ones).<BR/>Indeed, that Faith is Judaism. Christians proclaim departure from it. Many Messianics do much the same, <I>with bare and uplifted heads</I> proclaiming a departure from Judaism.<BR/><BR/>Has much of Messianism really come that far?A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-46027577224654565452009-02-23T08:14:00.000-06:002009-02-23T08:14:00.000-06:00"If you substitute Christianity every place I writ..."If you substitute Christianity every place I write Messianic Judaism, would that be right? Maybe my arguments fit them better?<BR/>Or would that be generalizing too?"<BR/><BR/>Kenneth , I would agree, to a point - if you substituted MJ with Christianity, some of the points you've made (e.g., the Anti-Torah views) would be valid for Christianity (as a WHOLE). At the same time, there are some denominations of Christianity that are not so antinomial. This means that one should be very careful about generalizing about anything out there.<BR/><BR/>I do not disagree that there are different voices in Messianic Judaism. In some ways Messianic Judaism is not unlike mainstream Judaism (much much more Torah based as a whole), which ranges from Humanistic Judaism that denies existence of G-d (www.shj.org), to Reform that is very lax on observances of G-d's Laws, to the Conservative Judaism which recently allowed homosexual rabbis, to the Ultra-Orthodox who probably wouldn't allow their daughters to marry you because you Kenneth are not enough of a Jew to them (not being even Orthodox).<BR/><BR/>So, to give you some advice, I would recommend that you re-write your materials to be much more specific about streams you're addressing, and whether you're talking about Christianity or Messianic Judaism. Do you research on UMJC (www.umjc.net), for example and see what positions they hold regarding Torah, etc.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87196184071428883962009-02-23T06:22:00.000-06:002009-02-23T06:22:00.000-06:00Gene,I don't hate Messianic Jews. I also believe t...Gene,<BR/><BR/>I don't hate Messianic Jews. I also believe they sincerely believe based on quotes in the Tanakh that a certain man was G-d and the Messiah. I don't think they have any evil intent in spreading that belief because they are trying to do what they think is good and right. I disagree with them, and I am not trying to spread hate against them or false accusations against them. I have heard many different opinions of their beliefs, so it is hard to know what is accurate. Your beliefs might be the minority opinion in Messianic Judaism.<BR/><BR/>Kenneth GreiferAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60876332242635465982009-02-23T06:15:00.000-06:002009-02-23T06:15:00.000-06:00Gene,Judah's essay discussed how Messianic Judaism...Gene,<BR/><BR/>Judah's essay discussed how Messianic Judaism is dividing into many different groups with all kinds of different beliefs. I have heard many different beliefs by Messianic Jews and Christians (who have many of the same beliefs), so it is hard to say in general any group's beliefs.<BR/><BR/>I have heard people who call themselves Christians who believe that the man you believe in was G-d and the Messiah, and others who call themselve Christian who say he was the Messiah only, and not G-d. Would it be right to say that Christians believe that that man was G-d or not? It would be a generalization because some don't.<BR/><BR/>I discuss Messianic Judaism's beliefs based on what I have to assume is the majority opinion. I know that there are many divisions and many different beliefs. <BR/><BR/>If you substitute Christianity every place I write Messianic Judaism, would that be right? Maybe my arguments fit them better?<BR/>Or would that be generalizing too?<BR/><BR/>Kenneth GreiferAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-61156783376113365732009-02-22T23:55:00.000-06:002009-02-22T23:55:00.000-06:00"I have heard different people identifying themsel..."I have heard different people identifying themselves as Messianic Jews say different things about their beliefs."<BR/><BR/>Kenneth... so, you based whole your "research" and your whole anti-Messianic Judaism "book" on hearsay?! Can you produce some evidence of your research to support the blanket statements you've made and continue making? <BR/><BR/>But to prove my point that you have not done your homework, I will quote something your wrote in your own "book":<BR/><BR/>"I THINK Messianic Judaism says if the Jewish people sin at all, they break the covenant and are cursed... I also THINK Messianic Judaism says that the covenant can end from sinning." (GS: ephasis added)<BR/><BR/>Kenneth, you "think"? Do you actually "think" that you can use your own "thoughts" as evidence to prove a point and be taken seriously by anyone?<BR/><BR/>"I think they are bearing false witness against G-d by saying He is more than one being and other false beliefs about Him."<BR/><BR/>Here's what we Jews who believe in the true Maschiach believe: "Hear o Israel the L-rd our G-d is one." <BR/><BR/>In Brit Hadasha writings (the book of letters written by Jewish followers of Yeshua, and what Gentiles call "New Testament") G-d reveals that Yeshua Ha-Maschiach is actually the Word of G-d that was made flesh and dwelled among men (of Israel, because it's to them that he was sent - Matthew / Matityahu 15:24). It also teaches that through G-d's Word, all things were created. I will quote Yochanan 1:1-5 for you:<BR/><BR/>"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d. He was with G-d in the beginning. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not suppressed it."<BR/><BR/>Kenneth... I hope that Ha-Shem shines His light upon you and helps you know who the true Maschiach is. When He does, there will be other Jews, followers of Yeshua, to help you.<BR/><BR/>I do believe that you're seriously trying to serve G-d, and it's an honorable thing. But my making false statements based on hearsay or at most on beliefs of few individuals, even about those who you consider your enemies (i.e., Jews who happen to believe in a certain person that YOU don't consider to be the Messiah) you discredit your own cause.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EugeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-88882633544083654482009-02-22T20:50:00.000-06:002009-02-22T20:50:00.000-06:00Gene,It is hard to say what Messianic Judaism beli...Gene,<BR/><BR/>It is hard to say what Messianic Judaism believes because I have heard different people identifying themselves as Messianic Jews say different things about their beliefs. If I say "Messianic Judaism believes..." so and so, and it is not true about all of them, I feel bad about that but what can I say? Some of them I have heard say this, but some don't.<BR/><BR/>Also, you said I am bearing false witness against them, but I think they are bearing false witness against G-d by saying He is more than one being and other false beliefs about Him. <BR/><BR/>Kenneth GreiferAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-7498715580992868092009-02-22T19:24:00.000-06:002009-02-22T19:24:00.000-06:00Kenneth... the book you have on your site, the one...Kenneth... the book you have on your site, the one about the so called "mistakes" in Messianic Judaism - I found that much of the material contains blatant lies and not worth anybody's time. I will now quote a few paragraphs from your "book" to show exactly what I mean:<BR/><BR/>"Messianic Judaism also says that the laws can't be kept successfully and always leads to a curse, but DEUTERONOMY 30:11 says they can be kept successfully."<BR/><BR/>and again...<BR/><BR/>"According to Messianic Judaism, the laws are over, but Ezekiel said that in the future the laws will be kept and they will have a new heart and new spirit "<BR/><BR/>What nonesense you're promoting! It seems that you have not done your research and don't know what you are saying (I suspect you do - but you promote it anyway to see if you can find an uninformed person who would be swayed to your point of view!) The normative Messianic Judaism believes that the Torah is still valid and for today, can, should and must be followed by Jewish followers of Yeshua. In fact, Messianic Jews use the scriptures you list as "proofs"" against us to show to Gentiles and to Jews who are in churches (instead of MJ synagogues) that the Law of Moses has NOT been done away or is NOT too hard to follow. No only that, while elsewhere you admit that you are "not exactly Orthodox", many Messianic Jews "out-do" either Conservative or Reform Jews in both their respect for and observance of Torah. Not only that, many of us study Oral Law and see how we can apply it in our daily lives as Jews. Since you are not Orthodox yourself, you should be the last to point your finger at Messianic Jews if our interpretation or application of some Oral laws happens to be different in some cases.<BR/><BR/>I am sorry, but you are bearing false witness against Messianic Jews. I hope that someday you realize that you need to use some more honorable means to accomplish your goals or to even be taken seriously! <BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-58966858628620655822009-02-22T18:33:00.000-06:002009-02-22T18:33:00.000-06:00Judah, I think that Messianic Judaism is a fragmen...Judah, <BR/><BR/>I think that Messianic Judaism is a fragment of Evenagelical Christianity. You don't want it to fragment, but I think it is one, and it will also fragment because no one who reads the NT knows what they should really believe. <BR/><BR/>Don't you think that there might be a reason that this happens. Maybe it's not just human nature or some evil force behind it, but the NT itself is the cause of the fragmenting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70531872138443342572009-02-19T23:49:00.000-06:002009-02-19T23:49:00.000-06:00Michael... unless one slanders someone (says somet...Michael... unless one slanders someone (says something about them that's not true), I don't see how it's wrong to talk about any other PUBLIC (as all published authors are) person's view in a blog comment (much less quote them directly or simply post links to their publicly available materials (which is what I've done). <BR/><BR/>Also, I must say that I strongly disagree with your statement that the Jewish leadership must be "ashamed as Jews" of supposed "more passionate, receptive, and willing" Law observance by some [Two House/One Law] Gentiles. Non-Jews following their own version of "Biblical Judaism", wearing Jewish religious garb, adopting Hebrew names, and calling themselves "Israelites" hardly evoke feeling of "shame" in any Jew that I know [although other feelings may come up!).<BR/><BR/>Anyway... thanks for the comment, Michael. G-d willing, we may meet some day.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-72358030152115341702009-02-19T22:11:00.000-06:002009-02-19T22:11:00.000-06:00Shalom,Gene. With all do respect. I think it is wr...Shalom,<BR/><BR/>Gene. With all do respect. I think it is wrong and a violation of the laws of speech to bring others into conversations, use their names, etc. You brought FFOZ into this thread by mentioning us, I joined this conversation to make sure that your words did not define our position. You do not speak for FFOZ, I do not speak or represent Tim (although, in most cases I think he would trust me to.) That is why I said Tim would not appreciate being brought into this. Your question of "bad blood" is also plants seeds in minds and is a violation of proper speech. <BR/><BR/>To clear that up, there is not bad blood between Tim and FFOZ. Do I now have to list publicly the areas that we agree and disagree? That would be pointless and foolish. I can tell you that there are far more areas that I agree with him than disagree. I respect him greatly. Tim respects us in most areas. Tim's ministry grew his time naturally shifted to focus on his own work Torah Resource.<BR/><BR/>I cannot answer your question about his paper. I am sure I read it, but it would have been years ago. I agree with my paper.<BR/><BR/>As my paper states, I do not agree with the theology of 2house (but there is such a mixed perspective on this theology I find that I cannot make a blanket statement of opposition). I deeply appreciate the passion that that most of its adherents have. I know many that are living out what they believe to be truth and have a zeal for knowledge and understanding. They are far more prophetic minded than I am, this deeply effects their approach to everyday life. I would say, at the end of the day, while there are significant differences, there is a lot more that we agree on than disagree. I do not find them damaging to the movement as some do, I think that the animosity on both sides is a far greater concern.<BR/><BR/>I do agree that there are some variations of 2house that are replacement and Brit. Israel based. But the leadership would reject these positions and not see themselves a part of that approach. <BR/><BR/>Many that I have met in 2 house have deep love and healthy approach towards the land of Israel and the people of Israel. I appreciate that especially in a world that is hostile towards our land. <BR/><BR/>I think that it concerns Jewish leaders that some of these people are more Torah observant than they are. They must feel ashamed as Jews to see some gentiles more passionate, receptive, and willing to reorder their lives to the Torah than themselves. I think that this causes a lot of the hatred towards these people. <BR/><BR/>You say, "... but I am quite flexible on many things of theology." I think flexibility is a sign of security. I am glad you are secure in your views. I am much more dogmatic (primarily with myself) than what these posts may communicate. <BR/><BR/>Gene, I look forward to meeting you one day. May the Lord bless you. BoazAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-42441061925135866082009-02-19T19:50:00.000-06:002009-02-19T19:50:00.000-06:00"I think that Tim would appreciate not being lumpe..."I think that Tim would appreciate not being lumped into this discussion nor would he appreciate his association to Frist Fruits."<BR/><BR/>I don't see why not - besides, I merely included a link to his paper and we are talking about him, in any case. The paper is from 2002 - and at one point Tim Hegg was a member of FFOZ theological review committee, and mane numerous contributions in the name of FFOZ, like authoring its DVD seminars, ect, and internet is full of references of him being an integral part of FFOZ. I think "lumping" is a wrong word to use with Tim - unless there's some bad blood now between him and FFOZ? In any case... do you disagree with anything in the Two-House paper Tim authored?<BR/><BR/>"I think that this thread represents a desperate need for us all to consider the future of a movement that is fractured because of dogmatism."<BR/><BR/>I am not considering accepting the Two House theology as "just one of the voices" of the mainstream Messianic Movement. I do not consider my rejection of it "dogmatism", anymore that I consider my rejection of British Israelism dogmatism. Those two movements are the same in my book.<BR/><BR/>Judah thinks that I am unwilling to "learn" - but I've learned about this teaching as much I one could learn (it's not very deep - really!). I consider that theology just another version of "Replacement Theology", and for anyone who dared to do just a little bit of research it's also plain (for me) to see that its firmly rooted in the (almost) defunct British/Anglo-Israelism and Amstrongism (I encourage all to do a little research into those two movements to see how amazingly similar they are with the Two House movement.)<BR/><BR/>Call me "dogmatic" - but I am quite flexible on many things of theology, but some things are little too close for comfort for me as a Jew.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-54705405006243229582009-02-19T18:58:00.000-06:002009-02-19T18:58:00.000-06:00Aaron,"converting to Nazarene Judaism as laid out ...Aaron,<BR/><BR/>"converting to Nazarene Judaism as laid out in Acts 15"<BR/><BR/><BR/>I went back and read Acts 15, but I didn't explicitly see a requirement to convert to Nazerene Judaism. So I assume you see it in there implicitly. Could you, or someone else, explain how you arrived at your conclusion?<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>GaryGary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-385472537545460802009-02-19T18:12:00.000-06:002009-02-19T18:12:00.000-06:00"I think that this thread represents a desperate n...<I>"I think that this thread represents a desperate need for us all to consider the future of a movement that is fractured because of dogmatism."</I><BR/><BR/>You're right, Boaz. I was thinking about this last night after talking with you. <BR/><BR/>I thought, "You know, there are a lot of zealous people in this movement." Perhaps it's because this movement is made up largely of 2 groups that are, by nature, zealous: Jews searching out Messiah, and Christians searching out the Jewish nature of faith in the God of Israel.<BR/><BR/>I think there's a correlation between zeal and fracturing. <BR/><BR/>Zeal is good. Zeal can also lead to division as both sides are convinced of the righteousness of their convictions. This promotes an inflexible, rigid faith. Generates a lot of "heretics"; people that aren't 100% on board with <I>The Truth</I>. It creates the fracturing you mentioned.<BR/><BR/>Zeal is good. But we also need a little theological wiggle room. A more pragmatic faith.<BR/><BR/>Anyways, that's my thinking-out-loud for now. I think I'll write about this more next week.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-19655790399674471812009-02-19T17:12:00.000-06:002009-02-19T17:12:00.000-06:00ShalomThis is a very eclectic stream of thought. I...Shalom<BR/><BR/>This is a very eclectic stream of thought. I think it represents many views in our shared movement. <BR/><BR/>I just need to clarify Gene’s last post. I think that Tim would appreciate not being lumped into this discussion nor would he appreciate his association to Frist Fruits. Tim is the director of TorahResource he is not part of, nor has he ever been staff at First Fruits. We do have tremendous respect for Tim in many areas and draw from of his solid scholarship we are not officially connected. <BR/><BR/>Tim did serve First Fruits for several years on an outside (non-staff) editorial board. First Fruits has collection of UMJC, MJAA, Independent, MIA, and Church leaders that serve on this board. It is purposely diverse in its structure. It gives us perspective from their collective views and helps shape our materials as it goes through review. It does not mean that we always accept their views, but it helps sharpen us and is am means of accountability and balance. From this thread alone there are several men that serve in this capacity. <BR/><BR/>We work hard to cultivate a culture of respect. First Fruits of Zion often speaks at national two-house gatherings even though they fully understand we do not support or teach that view. We have written a paper on the two-house movement as well. It is called, “Encounters with and Ephraimite” You can get it here,<BR/><BR/>http://ffoz.org/downloads/white_papers/<BR/><BR/>It seems that several times in this thread there have been attempts to lump First Fruits with one side or the other. We are independent and have worked hard to create clear communications that articulate our positions. Linking us with others is not helpful. Perhaps everyone seeing that we are very unified as a staff, yet are respectful and accountable to the wider Messianic community will clarify why such associations are or can be made. <BR/><BR/>If you are familiar the dialog on Derek Lehman’s recent post between Derek and Nate Long you see major differences, yet both these men serve First Fruits as advisers, and I consider them friends—while I strongly disagree with them on several issues.<BR/><BR/>I think that this thread represents a desperate need for us all to consider the future of a movement that is fractured because of dogmatism. Consider James 3:18,<BR/><BR/>And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-26722697577218269032009-02-19T16:58:00.000-06:002009-02-19T16:58:00.000-06:00Thanks Lydia...When it comes to Torah, our only di...Thanks Lydia...<BR/><BR/>When it comes to Torah, our only disagreement is not whether or not it's "One Torah" or whether or not Jewish and Gentile believers are "One" - it is and we are. It's not even about Gentiles following the Mosaic Law if they so choose - I don't have a problem with anyone observing whatever they choose, as long as they do it "unto the L-rd". It's about claiming that the scriptures and Apostles somehow taught that Gentiles believers are under the same obligation as the Jewish believers to observe the Mosaic Law - I believe, from my reading of the New Testment / Brit Hadasha that Gentiles are under not such obligation - but they can observe the Law if they so choose - G-d will not think of them any more or less if they do not. One of the keys is realizing that G-d ALWAYS placed different requirements on different categories of people: young, old, sick, men, women, tribes of Cohens and Levites, land requirements as well as unique blessings for different tribes of Israel, aliens living in the land, converts to Judaism, slaves, virgins, mothers, fathers, widows, brothers of childless men, etc. It's a mistake to think that ANYONE is under same obligation - rather, we all have a unique calling.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-25885715245287386882009-02-19T16:41:00.000-06:002009-02-19T16:41:00.000-06:00Gene,I don't know if you'll bother to scroll down ...Gene,<BR/><BR/>I don't know if you'll bother to scroll down the length of this comment page, any longer, but thanks for the link. It's 11 pages and I'm out of ink, but I'll get to it tonight and get back to you after I’ve given it a good pondering. <BR/><BR/>While Two House happened to be at the heart of this conversation it, by no means, has any bearing on whether or not I believe that we are one, not two, in Messiah and that Torah is for all.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again, G!<BR/>LAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-46063880379822910012009-02-19T11:32:00.000-06:002009-02-19T11:32:00.000-06:00Lydia...You said: "I’m not sure what God has in st...Lydia...<BR/><BR/>You said: "I’m not sure what God has in store for me, yet, and no one has convinced me that what God is showing me is inaccurate."<BR/><BR/>When it comes to your sincerely held Two-House belief, there's a well-written paper by FFOZ's Tim Hegg that you may find educational (copy and paste the complete link below into your browser):<BR/><BR/>torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Two%20House%20Fatal%20Errors.pdf<BR/><BR/>Timm Hegg is very sympathetic to non-Jews following the Mosaic Law (which, until recently, was taught as required by FFOZ, but now optional yet beneficial), meaning it's not written from the mainstream MJ perspective (MJAA, UMJC, etc.), thus it's not "Jewishly" biased. FFOZ is well respected by many Two-House and One-Law people, including Judah (the author of this blog).<BR/><BR/>I hope you take time to read it and at least ponder on it.<BR/><BR/>Shalom!<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-88208222471904670592009-02-19T09:28:00.000-06:002009-02-19T09:28:00.000-06:00Lydia,Thanks for your comments and keeping things ...Lydia,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comments and keeping things respectful. I know how hard that is at times. ;-)<BR/><BR/>You said,<BR/><BR/><I> I pray that God blesses us all and sees that our only desire is to serve Him, praise Him and bring Him glory...whether we call ourselves Jew, gentile, Christian, or Scottish American.</I><BR/><BR/>That's something I can get on board with. <BR/><BR/>I've always worried that our theological disagreements would be used against us, people looking for Messiah might turn away because of our infighting. If we step back for a minute and realize, "Hey, we're all here trying to serve God", I think we make progress and we don't run the same risk of alienating those looking for God or the people who are still young in the faith.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-88092032294528767172009-02-19T09:19:00.000-06:002009-02-19T09:19:00.000-06:00Efrayim,I was wondering when you'd pop your head i...Efrayim,<BR/><BR/>I was wondering when you'd pop your head in. :-)<BR/><BR/>Yes, usual suspects for the comments, but additionally we had an unexpected and welcomed guest in the form of Boaz Michael from FFOZ. After speaking with him again last night, I'm feeling more at peace with all this. I will be writing another blog post to relay some new thoughts on all this.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-31987755606581204522009-02-19T09:15:00.000-06:002009-02-19T09:15:00.000-06:00Aaron,Thanks for your input. I think one area we d...Aaron,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your input. I think one area we disagree is on the need to formally convert to a Judaism.<BR/><BR/>Derek is formally converting to Messianic Judaism. You have said that you believe conversion to Nazarene Judaism is necessary. I know James Trimm adheres to that idea too.<BR/><BR/>I've followed the Nazarenes for awhile. I have some reservations about them, JK McKee <A HREF="http://tnnonline.net/faq/n.html#Nazarene%20Israel" REL="nofollow">sums them up here</A>. Could you answer these reservations in a respectful way?<BR/><BR/>Shalom, bro.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-40205758963192664062009-02-19T03:55:00.000-06:002009-02-19T03:55:00.000-06:00The problem is lack of knowledge and understanding...The problem is lack of knowledge and understanding of especially the second Temple period of Judaism, and all that came from that and caused that to be.<BR/><BR/>If you want to be the perfect "believer" in HaRav Yeshua, you will be a follower of Nazarene Judaism. This means if you're Jewish you avert to the Oral Torah of Nazarene Judaism (which unfortunately only partly preserved in the teachings/halachot of Yeshua and the rulings of the ancient Nazarene Sanhedrin), and if you're gentile, you make the process of converting to Nazarene Judaism as laid out in Acts 15 by the Nazarene Sanhedrin headed by Ya'aqov HaTzadiq and Shimon-Kefa at that time.<BR/><BR/>Its really as simple as that.<BR/><BR/>In terms of the goyim - we need not be concerned who they are, whether they are Ephraim or not, because HaShem will bring in his people. The goyim who come to Yeshua, if they are sincere, are not to only remain betrothed to him for all time, but to make the process of entering into marriage with him, which is completed at the conversion to Nazarene Judaism.<BR/><BR/>Here is the prophetic process based on the verse from Hoshea "after two days he will revive us, and on the third day he will raise us up.":<BR/><BR/>-The people went on the third day to Har-Sinai.<BR/>-Marriage completes betrothal.<BR/><BR/>-Yeshua rose on the third day.<BR/>-The Torah cycle used by the Nazarenes seemed to have been the three year cycle.<BR/>-Yeshua is called the Netzer from the prophecy in Yeshayahu/Isaiah. A netzer is an offshoot branch.<BR/>-Scientifically, after 3 days a new shoot grafted into an olive tree is fully integrated, and the process is called scion.<BR/><BR/>-New goyim were instructed by the Nazarene Sanhedrin to hear the words of the Torah every Shabbat and not take all the mitzvot on at one time.<BR/>-After 3 years they would have heard the whole Torah, and should be responsible to have obeyed all the commandments.<BR/>-At that time (after 3 years) they would then become Israelites by converting to Nazarene Judaism and no longer being goyim.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, prophetically, the Nazarene sect died off for about 2 thousand years and is now being revived in just the past decade or two.<BR/><BR/>This process is incredibly simple. Its prophesied about, and its backed up quite astoundingly in science.<BR/>Now, people on all sides of the aisle complicate things. People say "Torah is for goyim" and others say "Torah is not for goyim", when in fact both of them are right in different ways. The problem is, NEITHER SIDE understands it properly.<BR/><BR/><BR/>And on the issue of fragmentation in Messianic movements; its because of the failure to obey the Torah commandment to set up Torah-learned men, whom also the Dwelling of HaShem is upon, to rule as Shoftim (Judges) for the people on all matters involving Torah. Such men are basically non-existent throughout many of the sects of Messianism, because there is a huge lack of knowledge and an arrogant proclaiming of impartial truths by people who just came out of Christianity, and others from Judaism who buy into the modern Pharisaic Jewish monopoly on Judaism which used to never be until the Nazarenes, Essenes, and Saducees died out.<BR/><BR/>There's a big huge mess and lots of people are falling away in their ignorance. Everyone reading this: Be not one of them, study true Nazarene Judaism and become an <A HREF="http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/2182335:BlogPost:13581" REL="nofollow">authentic Nazarene</A>.A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-7888164001729615202009-02-18T21:09:00.000-06:002009-02-18T21:09:00.000-06:00Judah,Once again, an interesting post. Most of the...Judah,<BR/><BR/>Once again, an interesting post. <BR/><BR/>Most of the comments would probably come under the heading of, "the usual suspects". But that's ok.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that as long as people are going to maintain the whole "Jew / Gentile" thing, unity among the believers will remain on the distant horizon.<BR/><BR/>Do so many still believe that Messiah came to make sure that the divisions remained? I personally don't get that idea from scripture.<BR/><BR/>It does not make sense even on a human level. And scripture does not support that position at all.<BR/><BR/>The two houses of Israel:<BR/><BR/>YHVH divided them in the first place and YHVH will reunite them. His time, His way.<BR/><BR/>The fact that there are so many who are now aware of what is taking place is simply an indication of the small amount of time that is left for this age.<BR/><BR/>Division is a natural outcome of our fallen nature. We suffer under our relationship with good and evil.<BR/><BR/>In Messiah we have unity of heart and mind. Outside of Messiah we have all the bickering and confusion that comes with the lack of fellowship in His Spirit.<BR/><BR/>Good topic, good discussion.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.com