tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post3827350449597516828..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Former gentiles, because Messiah abolished the Law?Judah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-84476375470726409902008-11-18T14:20:00.000-06:002008-11-18T14:20:00.000-06:00"Personally, I want to be a Hebrew (one who has cr..."Personally, I want to be a Hebrew (one who has crossed over) not a Jew."<BR/><BR/>It's good for all of us (especially Jews) that you can't be either.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-66090199431632175582008-11-15T11:43:00.000-06:002008-11-15T11:43:00.000-06:00Hi Judah,Wow what a spirited debate you have had w...Hi Judah,<BR/><BR/>Wow what a spirited debate you have had while I have been gone. I would like to go back to the question of the "wall".<BR/><BR/>I believe that verse 14 should be translated "For he is our peace who has made both one, he loosed the partition hedge."<BR/><BR/>Check your Strongs numbers, they fit. From a Jewish perspective, to "loose" something means to change the halackic rule (see Matt 5:19) and a "hedge" is something placed by someone to prevent their breaking the Torah commands. The Jews of Yeshua's day had placed hedges between themselves and even righteous faithful gentiles. (This was the point of Acts 10. God was breaking down one of Peter's hedges.) <BR/><BR/>As an Hillel Pharisee, Paul would have been taught to reach out to gentiles verses the Shammai Pharisees (like Peter?)who would not reach out to the gentiles. I think Paul was stating that Yeshua had taught the Hillel view. <BR/><BR/>The above fits if you understand that Yeshua wanted people to call him Rabbi, ie follow His halachah. That is why he said:<BR/><BR/>Matt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. <BR/><BR/>It was the Rabbinic habit of adding "hedges" that had created many of the problems of the day. Personally, I want to be a Hebrew (one who has crossed over) not a Jew.<BR/><BR/>Shalom, Jeff.Messiah's Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08980847043588208916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-7143843043616292522008-11-12T10:04:00.000-06:002008-11-12T10:04:00.000-06:00Gene,I wasn't saying that there aren't any people ...Gene,<BR/><BR/>I wasn't saying that there aren't any people who have a lifestyle that could be identified as "Jewish". Most culture groups in the world today can be identified by their traditions and practices.<BR/><BR/>What I was saying is that a person would be hard pressed today to establish a unmixed genealogical link directly to Ya'acov. Many, like yourself, have recollections of parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, or perhaps even farther back from stories told and records kept.<BR/><BR/>But remember that the children of the mixed marriages had to be returned along with the wives (see Ezra chapter 10). Apparently they did not hold your current position at that time and considered them unclean too as Torah demands.<BR/><BR/>Also, if you look at Nehemiah chapter 7 verse 61 you see that the children of those who could not prove their lineage were considered unclean along with the fathers.<BR/><BR/>So it would seem from scripture that the Torah did not allow any mixture at all in marriages. Nor the children of those marriages.<BR/><BR/>But the promises are based on the seed of Avraham.<BR/><BR/>So how was YHVH going to get the seed of Avraham into all the nations of the world, so that they could receive Messiah when He came, without violating His own Torah?<BR/><BR/>Yosef, son of Ya'acov. That's how He did it.<BR/><BR/>So that you understand, I am not against my brother Judah (the people, not the guy who runs this blog, although I am not against him either) and I do not suffer from "Jew envy". I know that YHVH has kept a remnant alive and recognizable as a distinct people group for all the world to see. <BR/><BR/>I am not disputing that fact.<BR/><BR/>Where we really disagree is to the current status of the starting to be recognized House of Israel and how that relates to the very recognizable House of Judah.<BR/><BR/>Based on your argument, there wasn't any reason for Sha'ul to say "former gentiles", as there isn't any such thing. Not in any real sense, since after coming to Messiah they still didn't have to keep Torah.<BR/><BR/>So I said this:<BR/><BR/>"The people groups being discussed here are obviously the Jews and the gentiles. There existed both a genetic and lifestyle difference that could not be bridged by any human means. And Messiah's stated purpose was to make them into one people group from the two, a goal that could not be reached in the flesh."<BR/><BR/>You cannot reach unity while maintaining a division. Or, how can two be at peace when their house is divided?<BR/><BR/>Something to consider.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-85702059397063290512008-11-11T22:26:00.000-06:002008-11-11T22:26:00.000-06:00Efrayim..."In fact, I truly believe that there isn...Efrayim...<BR/><BR/>"In fact, I truly believe that there isn't a person alive today who can prove without a doubt that they have an unbroken line to Ya'acov."<BR/><BR/>You'd like to really believe that, don't you? Lots of two-house people believe that - it's one of their key points: "Hey, for all I know, I am an Israelite TOO!" <BR/><BR/>However, the history doesn't support that. There have always been identifiable Jewish people and always will be. Just like there were Greek people, and still are. Jews are descendant from Yaakov, our forefather. <BR/><BR/>Historically, Jewish people had very little intermarriage, since the Torah and traditions discouraged that. Not a lot of MEN wanted to be part of the most hated of nation either. Those Gentile men (or women) who did join Israel, didn't become Jews - unlike the modern rabbis the Bible never claims that they not became Hebrews or Israelites, but continues to identify them by their Gentile origins (remember Uriah the Hittite, Ruth the Moabitess,Rahab)<BR/><BR/>Yes, they played a great role in Israel, and many indeed had become part of our nation (primarily through intermarriage of the women to Israelites) - but they still were not Jews.<BR/><BR/>So, as you see from the Bible, even when Jews DID intermarry, it usually was Israelite men marrying Gentile women. As both of us with agree, this fact really has no affect on Jewish linage (which Biblically always passed through fathers).<BR/><BR/>Why is that important? The Two-House people like to accuse Messianic Jews of racism and anti-Gentilism for not accepting Gentiles as Israelites. They accuse Jews of shunning Gentiles, of wanting to keep "poor" Gentiles down. All this is nonsense.<BR/><BR/>Was is not the Gentiles who were told not to be arrogant towards the Jews, the natural branches, and not the other way around? (Romans 11:18)<BR/><BR/>Who was Shaul talking about if, as you Ephrayim claim, NOBODY knows for sure who is Jewish OR not? Your words just don't compute in the light of the Bible.<BR/><BR/>But I tell you that G-d knew what he was doing - G-d has preserved Jews as a nation until today and is bringing them back into their own land.<BR/><BR/>"My point is that if the requirements of how to live one's life in Messiah is dependent upon one's genetic disposition, why isn't that elaborated on in the letters?"<BR/><BR/>The ancients didn't think in terms of "DNA", as you like to put it - the Israelites kept good genealogical records until the destruction of the second temple. They KNEW exactly who was Jewish or not. Shaul KNEW that he was from the tribe of Benjamin. The letter plainly teach that Gentiles are not to get circumcised - circumcision is part of the commandments, but Gentiles are told NOT to do it. Furthermore, Acts 15 plainly shows what Gentiles were to observe - and that the Holy Spirit himself commanded NOT TO LAY any greater burden on the Gentiles that some of the things mentioned in Acts 15.<BR/><BR/>But if you still want to talk in terms of DNA, I am sure you've seen numerous studies that, at the very least, if not proving one's Jewish, show a common MALE ancestry among Jews of disparate geographical regions, distinct from surrounding populations.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if they are any Gentiles in my blood line (perhaps Ruth?) - but I DO know that as far as I can go back in my own genealogy to my great-great-grandparents some of whom I know by name, all of my ancestors were Jews. I have relatives living right now in Israel. I grew up in a Jewish town in Ukraine. G-d knew what he was doing when he preserved my people so that he promises would come true.<BR/><BR/>ShalomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-7591555223150827612008-11-11T20:32:00.000-06:002008-11-11T20:32:00.000-06:00Gene,Are you sure you wanted this verse...?Nehemia...Gene,<BR/><BR/>Are you sure you wanted this verse...?<BR/><BR/>Nehemiah 13:3, "...they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude."<BR/><BR/>Let's see, according to one of the bible dictionaries I have on the shelf, Ya'acov lived about 3500 + years ago. <BR/><BR/>Quite a long time and many generations back in the past.<BR/><BR/>Now it would not be much of a stretch to imagine that over that long a period of time there were many instances of children being born from mixed relationships ( marriage or otherwise ). And that maintaining an untainted lineage directly from the sons of Ya'acov to today would be impossible.<BR/><BR/>Yes, impossible. That is the word I wanted to use. Impossible.<BR/><BR/>Though I have come across a few who claim that they can document their line from there to here, they also do not accept Yeshua as Messiah and would have zero traction with the ones they influence without that claim.<BR/><BR/>In fact, I truly believe that there isn't a person alive today who can prove without a doubt that they have an unbroken line to Ya'acov.<BR/><BR/>We're all mixed.<BR/><BR/>So if someone were to, say, try and blame the "mixed multitude" for bringing trouble to Ya'acov's kids as well as on their own heads, well, I would be left thinking that the person simply had an ax to grind and was overlooking the obvious.<BR/><BR/>But let's just say for the sake of the current discussion that someone was an unmixed descendant of Ya'acov. Where exactly does that fit in the new covenant we are currently living in? Is it important? What does it mean? <BR/><BR/>Sha'ul had some thoughts about his provable lineage which he mentioned to the believers in Philipi. Though he didn't deny his background, he didn't use the example to make the point that he had different obligations than they had due that very same lineage. It would have been a good time to put forth the argument you are proposing exists today don't you think?<BR/><BR/>My point is that if the requirements of how to live one's life in Messiah is dependent upon one's genetic disposition, why isn't that elaborated on in the letters? Why isn't the distinction you are trying to make not already made by plain by the Jewish apostles? I know you say it has been, but it hasn't. Not like that.<BR/><BR/>Though I may choose not to, according to what you are saying, it would be alright for me to eat pork, but not for you, because it is wrong for you, but not wrong for me.<BR/><BR/>And this is based upon lineage, right?<BR/><BR/>So I can break YHVH's commandment and get a pass because my genetic line does originate in the right location? <BR/><BR/>Hmmmm....it's ok for me to be disobedient to YHVH because my ancestors are not descended from Ya'acov. Or were they?<BR/><BR/>Well that does give me quite a bit of liberty doesn't it? I mean, if you're right, most of Torah does not apply to me. Or anyone else of mixed heritage for that matter.<BR/><BR/>Wow...I don't know what to say. If you're right, I might as well go back to church land and eat ham on Easter and put up a Christmas tree and so on and so on...<BR/><BR/>Of course, on the other hand, since it's ok for me to decide on my own, without implying any biblical imperative, to be obedient and keep what portions of Torah that I can, that would be alright. As long as I didn't try to think that I was in any way "Jewish" or an "Israelite". <BR/><BR/>Right?<BR/><BR/>I don't know, you can find scriptures that you say support your view and I can find scriptures that support mine.<BR/><BR/>But how is it that a person receives the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh, by the works of the Mosaic law, or by exercising trust in Messiah Yeshua?<BR/><BR/>In the end I have to go with what I know and have experienced personally with the Creator of the universe.<BR/><BR/>See you at the conclusion.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-58713860186156656842008-11-11T14:42:00.000-06:002008-11-11T14:42:00.000-06:00"And since gentiles are first-class citizens, on p..."And since gentiles are first-class citizens, on par with Israel, I think Torah generally applies to gentiles too.<BR/><BR/>Can I get another amen? ;-)"<BR/><BR/>Ame... you were so close, Judah!:)<BR/><BR/>It depends on what you mean by "applies to gentiles too". If you mean the great moral truths in it apply to Gentiles too, you'd be correct. If you mean that Gentiles are obligated or even encouraged by G-d (I am not talking as a means to salvation hear, btw) to take on a Jewish lifestyle and Mosaic Laws(get circumcised, eat Kosher, observe all the Jewish holy days and Shabbat, wear tzit-tzit), than I must withhold my "amen" for that:)<BR/><BR/>At the same time, Judah - as we've discussed in the past - if Gentiles want to keep the Mosaic Law - well, I am not here to stop anyone. It only bothers me when people teach that Gentiles SHOULD be keeping the Mosaic Covenant in order to live a G-d pleasing life (again, not talking about Salvation here). Gentiles are not obligated to observe Mosaic Covenant - and NT makes it clear. Jews, however, are. At the same time, some of the great MORAL truths contained in the Mosaic Covenant have preceded it.<BR/><BR/>Can I get an "Amen!" too?:)<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-61737439704334317702008-11-11T14:12:00.000-06:002008-11-11T14:12:00.000-06:00And since gentiles are first-class citizens, on pa...And since gentiles are first-class citizens, on par with Israel, I think Torah generally applies to gentiles too.<BR/><BR/>Can I get another amen? ;-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-38820942597945702462008-11-11T12:27:00.000-06:002008-11-11T12:27:00.000-06:00"It's interesting about the mixed multitude, isn't..."It's interesting about the mixed multitude, isn't it?<BR/><BR/>Paul talks about how the Torah had created a wall of enmity between Jew and Gentile, and now that enmity is destroyed, making gentiles first-class citizens in the commonwealth of Israel."<BR/><BR/>Amen!<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18091405079547777312008-11-11T11:43:00.000-06:002008-11-11T11:43:00.000-06:00Gene,It's interesting about the mixed multitude, i...Gene,<BR/><BR/>It's interesting about the mixed multitude, isn't it?<BR/><BR/>Paul talks about how the Torah had created a wall of enmity between Jew and Gentile, and now that enmity is destroyed, making gentiles first-class citizens in the commonwealth of Israel.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-58589292077751128652008-11-11T08:33:00.000-06:002008-11-11T08:33:00.000-06:00"When did God make a difference between Jew and Ge..."When did God make a difference between Jew and Gentile??"<BR/><BR/>Sara... you pasted a lot of scripture verses, but none of them prove anything you're trying to show - namely, that G-d wants Gentiles to follow the Laws of Moses as given to Israel and to live the same way as Jews do.<BR/><BR/>You asked me: "When did God make a difference between Jew and Gentile?"<BR/><BR/>He made this difference when he chose the TRIBES of Israel as His People. Tell me - are not the Gentiles called the "wild olive branch" and the "Jews" the "natural branches"? How can that be if G-d has not made a difference between Jews and Gentiles?<BR/><BR/>Or, how about the following verse in Amos 3:2:<BR/><BR/>"You only have I chosen of all the FAMILIES of the earth"<BR/><BR/>Sara, you said:<BR/><BR/>"If I understand correctly from the Torah when He gave the instructions at Mt. Sinai to Moshe He did not distinguish between them."<BR/><BR/>I don't think that in the above case you have understood the Torah correctly, and I'll tell you why. You seem to believe that the mixed multitudes that left with Israel have become Israelites and were part of the Covenant. You know that G-d doesn't contradict himself, right? OK, then - surely you know of the following law as stated in the Torah (written by Moshe):<BR/><BR/>The Law of Moshe says that foreigners can enter the congregation of Israel ONLY in their THIRD generation (meaning only their grandchildren are eligible for membership):<BR/><BR/>"Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country. The THIRD generation of children born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 23:7-8)<BR/><BR/>As you see, when it comes to the mixed multitudes that have joined Israel on the way to the Promised Land, in accordance to the above Law NON-ISRAELITES, even the best and most acceptable of the strangers are only allowed to enter the congregation of the L-rd in the THIRD generation.<BR/><BR/>Not only that, but the mixed multitude was in part the instigators of murmuring against G-d and Moshe:<BR/><BR/>Numbers 11:1: "And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burned among them, and consumed some that were in the outlying parts of the camp."<BR/><BR/>Please note that this fire started in the outlying parts of the camp - why is that? As it turns out, the mixed multitude lived in those parts. The mixed multitude included the Egyptians and perhaps other foreigners who had left Egypt with the children of Israel.<BR/><BR/>As you will also see next, it was the mixed multitude that was among the children of Israel that began to complain about leaving Egypt for the wilderness and had thus prompted Israel to also weep to G-d about their own predicament. <BR/><BR/>Numbers 11:2-4:<BR/><BR/>"And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.<BR/>And he called the name of the place Taberah: because the fire of the LORD burned among them.<BR/>And the MIXED MULTITUDE that was among them HAD A STRONG CRAVING: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?"<BR/><BR/>Did you know there was another time that Israel had a mixed multitude in their midst? Do you know what happened then? Do you think there were just accepted as part of the Covenant? Let's read:<BR/><BR/>Nehemiah 13:3, "...they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude."<BR/><BR/>I hope it has been helpful.<BR/><BR/>Shalom<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-65593410889101690442008-11-11T00:25:00.000-06:002008-11-11T00:25:00.000-06:00Gene,Could you please explain to me Ephesians, spe...Gene,<BR/>Could you please explain to me Ephesians, specifically 1:4&5, Eph 1:4 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be set-apart and blameless before Him in love,<BR/>Eph 1:5 having previously ordained us to adoption as sons through Yahshua Messiah to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His desire<BR/>And: Eph 2:8 For by favour you have been saved, through belief, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of Elohim, <BR/>Eph 2:9 it is not by works, so that no one should boast. <BR/>Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Yahshua unto good works, which Elohim prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. <BR/>Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once gentiles1 in the flesh, who are called ‘the uncircumcision’ by what is called ‘the circumcision’ made in the flesh by hands, Footnote: 11 Cor. 12:2.<BR/>Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Yisra’ĕl and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no expectation and without Elohim in the world. <BR/>Eph 2:13 But now in Messiah Yahshua you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah. <BR/>Eph 2:14 For He is our peace, who has made both one, and having broken down the partition of the barrier, <BR/>Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity – the Torah of the commands in dogma – so as to create in Himself one renewed man from the two, thus making peace, <BR/>Eph 2:16 and to completely restore to favour both of them unto Elohim in one body through the stake, having destroyed the enmity by it. <BR/>Eph 2:17 And having come, He brought as Good News peace to you who were far off, and peace to those near. <BR/>Eph 2:18 Because through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. <BR/>Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the set-apart ones and members of the household of Elohim,1 Footnote: 1Rom. 11:17-24, Isa. 14:1.<BR/>Eph 2:20 having been built upon the foundation of the emissaries and prophets, Yahshua Messiah Himself being chief corner-stone, <BR/>Eph 2:21 in whom all the building, being joined together, grows into a set-apart Dwelling Place in God, <BR/>Eph 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of Elohim in the Spirit.<BR/>And: Eph 3:1 Because of this I, Sha’ul, am the prisoner of Yahshua Messiah on behalf of you gentiles <BR/>Eph 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the administration of the favour of Elohim that was given to me for you, <BR/>Eph 3:3 that by revelation was made known to me the secret, as I wrote before briefly. <BR/>Eph 3:4 In reading this, then, you are able to understand my insight into the secret of Messiah, <BR/>Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His set-apart emissaries and prophets: <BR/>Eph 3:6 The gentiles to be co-heirs, united in the same body, and partakers together1 in the promise in Messiah through the Good News, Footnote: 1Rom. 11:17-24, Isa. 14:1.<BR/>Eph 3:7 of which I became a servant according to the gift of the favour of Elohim given to me, according to the working of His power. <BR/>Eph 3:8 To me, the very least of all the set-apart ones, this favour was given, to bring the Good News of the unsearchable riches of Messiah among the gentiles, <BR/>Eph 3:9 and to make all see how this secret is administered, which for ages past has been hidden in Elohim who created all through Yahshua Messiah,1 Footnote: 1John 1:3.<BR/>Eph 3:10 so that now, through the assembly, the many-sided wisdom of Elohim might be known to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies, <BR/>Eph 3:11 according to the everlasting purpose which He made in Messiah Yahshua our Master, <BR/>Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and access, with reliance, through belief in Him. <BR/>And also: Rom 8:3 For the Torah being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, <BR/>Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. <BR/>Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit. <BR/>Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace. <BR/>Rom 8:7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself1 to the Torah of Elohim2, neither indeed is it able, Footnotes: 1Or does not obey. 2John 15:5, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18.<BR/>Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim. <BR/>Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Messiah, this one is not His. <BR/>Rom 8:10 And if Messiah is in you, the body is truly dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness. <BR/>Rom 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Yahshua from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Messiah from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit dwelling in you. <BR/>Rom 8:12 So then, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. <BR/>Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live. <BR/>Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are sons of Elohim. <BR/>Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” <BR/>Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of Elohim, <BR/>Rom 8:17 and if children, also heirs – truly heirs of Elohim, and co-heirs with Messiah, if indeed we suffer with Him, in order that we also be exalted together. Rom 8:28 And we know that all matters work together for good to those who love Elohim, to those who are called according to His purpose. <BR/>Rom 8:29 Because those whom He knew beforehand, He also ordained beforehand to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers. <BR/>Rom 8:30 And whom He ordained beforehand, these He also called, and whom He called, these He also declared right. And whom He declared right, these He also esteemed. <BR/>Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to this? If Elohim is for us, who is against us?<BR/>Rom 9:1 I speak the truth in Messiah, I do not lie, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Set-apart Spirit, <BR/>Rom 9:2 that I have great sadness and continual grief in my heart. <BR/>Rom 9:3 For I myself could have wished to be banished from Messiah for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, <BR/>Rom 9:4 who are Yisra’ĕlites, whose is the adoption, and the esteem, and the covenants, and the giving of the Torah, and the worship, and the promises, <BR/>Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, Elohim-blessed forever. Amĕn. <BR/>Rom 9:6 However, it is not as though the word of Elohim has failed. For they are not all Yisra’ĕl who are of Yisra’ĕl, <BR/>Rom 9:7 neither are they all children because they are the seed of Aḇraham, but, “In Yitsḥaq your seed shall be called.” <BR/>Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of Elohim, but the children of the promise are reckoned as the seed. <BR/>Rom 9:15 For He says to Mosheh, “I shall favour whomever I favour, and I shall have compassion on whomever I have compassion.” <BR/>Rom 9:16 So, then, it is not of him who is wishing, nor of him who is running, but of Elohim who shows favour. <BR/>Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this same purpose I have raised you up, to show My power in you, and that My Name be declared in all the earth.” <BR/>Rom 9:18 So, then, He favours whom He wishes, and He hardens whom He wishes<BR/>Rom 10:1 Truly brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to Elohim for Yisra’ĕl is for deliverance. <BR/>Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have an ardour for Elohim, but not according to knowledge. <BR/>Rom 10:3 For not knowing the righteousness of Elohim, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves to1 the righteousness of Elohim. Footnote: 1Or did not obey.<BR/>Rom 10:4 For Messiah is the goal1 of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’to everyone who believes. Footnote: 1Or end purpose; not termination.<BR/>Rom 10:5 For Mosheh writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, “The man who does these shall live by them.” <BR/>Rom 10:6 But the righteousness of belief speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens?’ ” – that is, to bring Messiah down; or, <BR/>Rom 10:7 “ ‘Who shall descend into the abyss?’ ” – that is, to bring Messiah up from the dead. <BR/>Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” – that is, the word of belief which we are proclaiming: <BR/>Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth the Master Yahshua and believe in your heart that Elohim has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. <BR/>Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, and so is saved. <BR/>Rom 10:11 Because the Scripture says, “Whoever puts his trust in Him shall not be put to shame.” <BR/>Rom 10:12 Because there is no distinction between Yehuḏite and Greek, for the same Master of all is rich to all those calling upon Him. <BR/>Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the Name of God shall be saved.” <BR/>Rom 3:27 Where, then, is the boasting? It is shut out. By what Torah? Of works? No, but by the Torah of belief. <BR/>Rom 3:28 For we reckon that a man is declared right by belief without works of Torah. <BR/>Rom 3:29 Or is He the Elohim of the Yehuḏim only, and not also of the gentiles? Yea, of the gentiles also, <BR/>Rom 3:30 since it is one Elohim who shall declare right the circumcised by belief and the uncircumcised through belief. <BR/>Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Torah through the belief? Let it not be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.<BR/>Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with Elohim. <BR/>Rom 2:12 For as many as sinned without Torah shall also perish without Torah, and as many as sinned in the Torah shall be judged by the Torah. <BR/>Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the Torah are righteous in the sight of Elohim, but the doers of the law1 shall be declared right. Footnote: 1Mt. 7:21-27, James 2:14-24.<BR/>Rom 2:14 For when gentiles, who do not have the Torah, by nature do what is in the Torah, although not having the Torah, they are a Torah to themselves, <BR/>Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Torah written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or even excusing, <BR/>Rom 2:16 in the day when Elohim shall judge the secrets of men through Yahshua Messiah, according to my Good News. <BR/>Rom 2:17 See, you are called a Yehuḏite, and rest on the Torah, and make your boast in Elohim, <BR/>Rom 2:18 and know the desire of Elohim, and approve what is superior, being instructed out of the Torah, <BR/>Rom 2:19 and are trusting that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, <BR/>Rom 2:20 an instructor of foolish ones, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and of the truth in the Torah.1 Footnote: Ps. 147:19, Rom. 3:2, Rom. 9:4.<BR/>Rom 2:21 You, then, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who proclaim that a man should not steal, do you steal? <BR/>Rom 2:22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abominate idols, do you rob temples? <BR/>Rom 2:23 You who make your boast in the Torah, through the transgression of the Torah do you disrespect Elohim? <BR/>Rom 2:24 For “The Name of Elohim is blasphemed among the gentiles because of you,” as it has been written. <BR/>Rom 2:25 For circumcision indeed profits if you practise the Torah, but if you are a transgressor of the Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. <BR/>Rom 2:26 So, if an uncircumcised one watches over the righteousnesses of the Torah, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned as circumcision? <BR/>Rom 2:27 And the uncircumcised by nature, who perfects the Torah, shall judge you who notwithstanding letter and circumcision are a transgressor of the Torah! <BR/>Rom 2:28 For he is not a Yehuḏite who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. <BR/>Rom 2:29 But a Yehuḏite is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart,1 in Spirit, not literally, whose praise is not from men but from Elohim. Footnote: 11 Cor. 7:19, Ex. 19:5, Dt. 10:12-16, Dt. 30:6-8.<BR/><BR/>When did God make a difference between Jew and Gentile?? If I understand correctly from the Torah when He gave the instructions at Mt. Sinai to Moshe He did not distinguish between them. His instructions were given to both, Jew and Gentile. One Torah for ALL peoples.Avodah Shebalevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07017257974790531999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60510922836659885142008-11-09T19:25:00.000-06:002008-11-09T19:25:00.000-06:00Todd,Gene's reading of the text in Acts ch. 15 is ...Todd,<BR/><BR/>Gene's reading of the text in Acts ch. 15 is a simple reading of the words on the page, while tending to ignore everything else that was going on at the time. <BR/><BR/>I would call it more of a "safe" reading than a natural one. But that's just me.<BR/><BR/>In the sense you're meaning it could be a more "natural" reading as it does not present any complications for the reader to consider.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps it is just me, but I tend to see what it is not said as well and weigh it against the sparse record we have to work with.<BR/><BR/>I agree Gene. Let the comments begin.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-19748391817721415682008-11-09T15:37:00.000-06:002008-11-09T15:37:00.000-06:00In closing, Efrayim......enough words have been po...In closing, Efrayim...<BR/><BR/>...enough words have been posted - now let's let the readers decide for themselves by looking at the presented evidence from scripture.<BR/><BR/>ShalomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-54558857089306957252008-11-09T15:16:00.000-06:002008-11-09T15:16:00.000-06:00Gene,"That's nonsense - and gross misrepresentatio...Gene,<BR/><BR/>"That's nonsense - and gross misrepresentation of my position. No one is being told to stand anywhere, no one is being told that they are less important - we are all equally loved by the Father when he adopts us as his children. Different roles and responsibilities given by G-d Himself to different people DO NOT mean that one is inferior to another. We are all different parts of one body - and different parts have different functions."<BR/><BR/>I agree with the sentiment, but not in the context of what is currently being discussed.<BR/><BR/>"Hold on a second now - G-d already gave commandments to the ALL of mankind before on many occasions before Israel ever came along. What's more, the Bible already says that Gentiles have the Law written on their hearts (Romans 2:14-15). Because of that they already know right from wrong, as most people do. At the same time, the Law of Moses was given specifically to Israel to follow, and when Yeshua came, Gentiles were not told to start observing Mosaic Laws.<BR/><BR/>You're mixing things up there with that statement. Sha'ul mention of the Torah being written on the hearts of the gentiles was limited to the believing gentiles, not everyone on the planet. As far as people in general having the option to see that all things were made by YHVH from the beginning and give Him praise for that, well, the blind have a terrible time with that concept.<BR/><BR/>And by the way, the gentiles were not told to NOT keep Torah either. And since love is the ultimate goal of Torah, I would say that they were told quite plainly TO keep Torah with all their heart.<BR/><BR/>As far as the Mosaic law, no one is keeping that today, regardless of how much some people would like to think that they are.<BR/><BR/>I won't copy your circumcision part. <BR/><BR/>But here is what Sha'ul was saying to the congregation in Galatia: <BR/><BR/>if you try to justify yourself before YHVH by observing one portion of the law you will then be required to finish justifying yourself by keeping the entire law. Do you see the difference? Sha'ul's argument was against those who were trying to get the gentiles to come under their authority by requiring them to keep the law for their salvation. Once they came under the strict keeping of the law, the Jews would have complete rule over them as experts in the very things they were saying were needed to obtain eternal life.<BR/><BR/>It was not an argument for or against the gentiles getting circumcised. It was about being circumcised for the wrong reason.<BR/><BR/>"Are there later letters that tell Gentile believers that they are to observe all of the Mosaic Laws that Jewish believers observe? Are there letters that condemn Gentiles for violating Shabbat, eating pork, not circumcising their children, not keeping ritual purity, etc? Of course not. Why? Because G-d didn't require that of Gentiles."<BR/><BR/>Well, since you put it that way, why are Jews still trying to do the things that YHVH isn't requiring the gentiles to do? You say that we are on the same footing through faith in Messiah. While we do have different functions but not different importance, why make different rules for the different functions of the different believers?<BR/><BR/>The "rules" for gentiles did not change from that of the Jews until the time of Constantine. He had grand plans for strengthening his hand over the people and folding of the "Christians" in with the general sun-worshipping society was part of that plan. And there are adequate historical proofs available to see that the keeping of Torah was very much a part of the gentile believers lives.<BR/><BR/>Large issue there with Constantine. Not enough time or space. Maybe later.<BR/><BR/>""Yes, they were pleased to do so, and they are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things." (Romans 15:27)"<BR/><BR/>This has to do with the mutual sharing of the promises of the covenants through faith in Messiah, not the taking away of anything from the Jews.<BR/><BR/>""Only, everyone should live as the Lord has assigned, just as God called each one. I give this order in all the congregations.""<BR/><BR/>Once again, context, context, context. What was Sha'ul explaining to them and why? He was trying to answer their questions about how they should navigate their culture while trying to serve Messiah. It had nothing to do with gentiles remaining gentiles and Jews remaining Jews.<BR/><BR/>And where is the scripture that describes the Jewish believers as "former Jews"? Is it missing, or was it not even a consideration. If the new creature was to be taken from both groups of people, why does it seem like a one way street?<BR/><BR/>If DNA really has nothing to do with it then why keep bringing it up?<BR/><BR/>The new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven has twelve gates, not two. Nor do I see a mention of an outer court.<BR/><BR/>"It's not about DNA - it's about having one's forefather Ya'akov/Israel who have been given promises for himself and for all of Israel by G-d himself. You try to minimize that - but I suggest that you turn to the "Old Testament" and see the end-time promises given to Israel specifically."<BR/><BR/>Please, if you want to go through the previous covenants and what was promised to who, I would be glad to oblige you. But not here.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1174042892931184982008-11-09T14:38:00.000-06:002008-11-09T14:38:00.000-06:00Efrayim-I think looking at Scripture as a whole an...Efrayim-<BR/><BR/>I think looking at Scripture as a whole and the verses Gene cited, his view does conform better to Scripture than the 2 house idea. It seems a strained reading to bring in the idea of other letters or instructions to the gentile churches when the letter from Jerusalem council sprung from addressing the very issue we are talking about - whether followers of Yeshua of gentile origin had to convert to Judaism via circumcision and follow all the mosaic law to join the Body. <BR/><BR/>Gene's is a more natural reading. I don't say I don't have any problems/questions with normative Messianic Judaism (I'm Catholic for heaven's sake!). But their view seems more in line with Scripture to me.<BR/><BR/>ToddAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-91696930614129490032008-11-09T00:17:00.000-06:002008-11-09T00:17:00.000-06:00Efrayim... you wrote a lot, again... let's see if ...Efrayim... you wrote a lot, again... let's see if I can go through it quickly...<BR/><BR/>"Two different people groups with two different genetic backgrounds come through the same gate to receive eternal life through trust in Messiah Yeshua."<BR/><BR/>It's not about DNA - it's about having one's forefather Ya'akov/Israel who have been given promises for himself and for all of Israel by G-d himself. You try to minimize that - but I suggest that you turn to the "Old Testament" and see the end-time promises given to Israel specifically.<BR/><BR/>"One person, due to their genetic background, are told to stand over in one part of the kingdom and do very little because what they do is not that important."<BR/><BR/>That's nonsense - and gross misrepresentation of my position. No one is being told to stand anywhere, no one is being told that they are less important - we are all equally loved by the Father when he adopts us as his children. Different roles and responsibilities given by G-d Himself to different people DO NOT mean that one is inferior to another. We are all different parts of one body - and different parts have different functions.<BR/><BR/>"The folks with the genetic disadvantage are given very little instruction. Like, stay away from a few foods under certain conditions and don't be sexually immoral."<BR/><BR/>Hold on a second now - G-d already gave commandments to the ALL of mankind before on many occasions before Israel ever came along. What's more, the Bible already says that Gentiles have the Law written on their hearts (Romans 2:14-15). Because of that they already know right from wrong, as most people do. At the same time, the Law of Moses was given specifically to Israel to follow, and when Yeshua came, Gentiles were not told to start observing Mosaic Laws. <BR/><BR/>In fact, there are many verses that speak against them trying it. Like the one that says that if a person becomes circumcised, they would have to observe the WHOLE LAW (Galatians 5:3):<BR/><BR/>"Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law."<BR/><BR/>Since Paul was speaking against Gentiles getting circumcised in the verses preceding the above, it's quite obvious (to me at least) that he didn't expect Gentiles to obey the WHOLE law either (as would be expected of Jews). Let's see:<BR/><BR/>1) Circumcised (i.e. Jews and Jewish converts) - MUST obey the WHOLE Mosaic law (meaning not just the circumcision part of that law).<BR/><BR/>2) Not-circumized and NOT required to be (e.g. NT Gentile believers) - NOT required to obey the Mosaic law. <BR/><BR/>So, what are Gentiles to do if they are not to live as Jews and are under no obligation to observe Mosaic Law? Are they free to live a lawless life? No! Paul writes in Gal 5:13:<BR/><BR/>"But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."."<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Efrayim, you wrote:<BR/><BR/>"Whoa, wait a minute you say. There are other letters that explain all those things in detail."<BR/><BR/>Are there later letters that tell Gentile believers that they are to observe all of the Mosaic Laws that Jewish believers observe? Are there letters that condemn Gentiles for violating Shabbat, eating pork, not circumcising their children, not keeping ritual purity, etc? Of course not. Why? Because G-d didn't require that of Gentiles.<BR/><BR/>"Since your heritage can't be stolen I am left thinking that what you're having trouble with is the idea of sharing your heritage with others."<BR/><BR/>Sharing - I am and other Jews have shared plenty of our heritage already! <BR/><BR/>"Yes, they were pleased to do so, and they are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things." (Romans 15:27)<BR/><BR/>What more do you want? Do you want to be an Israelite when you're not? Have you ever tasted real antisemitism, a hatred for the Jewish blood that runs in your veins? I have, many times, growing up in Ukraine. And I expect more of the same in the coming future before Yeshua returns. There will not be many Gentile people who will claim to be Israelites.<BR/><BR/>"Although you say that it is fine with you if gentiles partake of the life that is in Messiah, you also say that they need to keep their place while doing so and not try to be or act like "Jews".<BR/><BR/>Efrayim, I'll let Shaul answer your question in 1 Corinthians 7:17:<BR/><BR/>"Only, everyone should live as the Lord has assigned, just as God called each one. I give this order in all the congregations."<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>GeneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60342708415894872232008-11-08T23:27:00.000-06:002008-11-08T23:27:00.000-06:00Gene,That is an interesting scenario you propose. ...Gene,<BR/><BR/>That is an interesting scenario you propose. <BR/><BR/>Two different people groups with two different genetic backgrounds come through the same gate to receive eternal life through trust in Messiah Yeshua.<BR/><BR/>But then something amazing happens right after they step through the gate.<BR/><BR/>One person, due to their genetic background, are told to stand over in one part of the kingdom and do very little because what they do is not that important.<BR/><BR/>Another person, due to their genetic background, is told to stand over in another part of the kingdom and that they will have much to do because they are special in a special way and the requirements for them are quite different.<BR/><BR/>Ok, so now what?<BR/><BR/>The folks with the genetic disadvantage are given very little instruction. Like, stay away from a few foods under certain conditions and don't be sexually immoral. <BR/><BR/>Gene, you do realize that the letter which the apostles carried to the gentiles did not tell them to love one another. Or how to worship. Or how establish competent leadership within their congregations. Or even where or on what day to worship or rest or whatever they were supposed to do.<BR/><BR/>Whoa, wait a minute you say. There are other letters that explain all those things in detail.<BR/><BR/>Yes, but they did not have them in their possession did they?<BR/><BR/>Many were written later, or sent to other congregations far away. Who knows if those who received the letter from the apostles in Jerusalem ever saw the other letters? <BR/><BR/>You like to talk about what was contained in that letter as if it was the summation of teaching that the gentiles would need for the next two thousand years.<BR/><BR/>While at the same time you argue that the Jews would have to continue to labor under Torah, regardless of what Messiah had done, as it was only meant for them.<BR/><BR/>Quite a position to take. I really can't see how you make it work within the totality of scripture.<BR/><BR/>On the one hand you say that Messiah came to bring us together as one in Him.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand you say that Jews and gentiles are to remain separate due to the different genetic backgrounds, the lineage passed on from father to son with the seed of man.<BR/><BR/>Covet? Really? Once again I will ask you just what exactly do you think it is that someone wants to steal from you? Your heritage?<BR/><BR/>Since your heritage can't be stolen I am left thinking that what you're having trouble with is the idea of sharing your heritage with others.<BR/><BR/>Although you say that it is fine with you if gentiles partake of the life that is in Messiah, you also say that they need to keep their place while doing so and not try to be or act like "Jews".<BR/><BR/>Hmmm...doesn't sound to me like what I read in scripture. <BR/><BR/>Does anyone else see what Gene is saying as being contained within scripture? I'll gladly stand corrected if it can be shown that what he, Gene, is proposing is actually the plan and purpose that YHVH has for His people. And that YHVH put that plan in motion through His Son Yeshua.<BR/><BR/>Chapter and verse would be fine.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-51892319966661113602008-11-08T13:45:00.000-06:002008-11-08T13:45:00.000-06:00Sara... you said:"When a gentile becomes a believe...Sara... you said:<BR/><BR/>"When a gentile becomes a believer in Yeshua the Messiah, they become the seed of Abraham. Who inherits the kingdom? The seed of Abraham, those who are saved through faith and hold to the instructions of God. Why did Yeshua say that Abraham was accounted for righteousness? Because Abraham believed God and had faith in the Messiah.<BR/><BR/>Because I believe, follow the instructions of Torah and have faith in the Messiah, I am a wild olive branch that has been grafted in to the Tree which is Yeshua."<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your input. Let me make a few points for you:<BR/><BR/>1) Being a child of Abraham doesn't make one a child of Israel/Ya'akov. After all, Abraham is called the "father of many nations" - which includes Gentiles nations. Therefore, for some to claim that Gentiles are Israelites or Jews because they have been adopted as children of Abraham by faith, is not only not supported by any scriptural verses, it is also covetousness. Neither, as some preach, do Gentiles become "Hebrews" (also, an ethnic designation which covers everyone from Abraham on).<BR/><BR/>2) Not being children of Ya'akov (spiritual or otherwise) means that one is not bound by the covenant that G-d has established SPECIFICALLY with Israel. G-d doesn't expect, want or requires that Gentiles live as Jews. This is reflected quite well in Acts 15:<BR/><BR/>"To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. ... It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with ANYTHING BEYOND the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell."<BR/><BR/>No, for anyone to simply IGNORE these words and continue to insists that it's a G-d honoring thing for Gentiles to take one something that G-d never gave them - that would certainly bring on the same rebuke that the Jewish Messianic Community in Yerushalaem has issued to those who teach it.<BR/><BR/>Did G-d LIE to the Jerusalem leadership when He said that he didn't require of Gentiles any further requirements?<BR/><BR/>3) You have to also remember that Yeshua came to Israel - almost everything he said, he said to Israelites/Jews. When teachers of the Torah asked Yeshua which one was the greatest commandment, he started his answer with "'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." To take things out of this context and to reapply them to Gentiles believers - one would do no better than those who teach Replacement Theology and say tjat everything that belonged to Israel now belongs to us - and what's more, WE ARE the New Israel. It's just not supported by the scripture.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>Gene<BR/><BR/>4)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-27754406961882094732008-11-08T01:34:00.000-06:002008-11-08T01:34:00.000-06:00When a gentile becomes a believer in Yeshua the Me...When a gentile becomes a believer in Yeshua the Messiah, they become the seed of Abraham. Who inherits the kingdom? The seed of Abraham, those who are saved through faith and hold to the instructions of God. Why did Yeshua say that Abraham was accounted for righteousness? Because Abraham believed God and had faith in the Messiah. <BR/><BR/>Because I believe, follow the instructions of Torah and have faith in the Messiah, I am a wild olive branch that has been grafted in to the Tree which is Yeshua.<BR/><BR/>Has anyone listened to any of Brad Scott's teachings? How about Bill Cloud? Both of these men have awesome teachings although I think Brad Scott goes deeper into the Hebrew and Greek definitions. I also like FFOZ's teachings. <BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/>SaraAvodah Shebalevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07017257974790531999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-50366672963204535682008-11-08T01:21:00.000-06:002008-11-08T01:21:00.000-06:00Efrayim,You are correct in what you have posted he...Efrayim,<BR/><BR/>You are correct in what you have posted here. Sorry Gene, but when God says that He is not a man that He could lie..When He says that He does not change....When He says, "Have I not said it and will I not do it?" I believe HIM/GOD, not man. I do not believe that Yeshua came to do away with the Torah, I believ He came to fill it up, to make it more understandable. He saw that His sheep were being led astray and therefore He was bringing them back to Him. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, Paul's/Shaul's words and the way they have been interpreted has made him more the authority than Yeshua. I have found out that unless you understand the Hebrew idioms and the Hebrew language you will not understand Paul/Shaul's teachings. <BR/><BR/>I don't understand how people can say that Yeshua is God and yet not follow His instructions. How many times did He say, "If you love Me, keep My commandments/instructions."? How many times is that said in the Torah?? Who receives the blessings? Those who love God and keep His commandments/instructions. <BR/><BR/>Shalom<BR/>S.C.Avodah Shebalevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07017257974790531999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-77100077476972669232008-11-06T19:35:00.000-06:002008-11-06T19:35:00.000-06:00From Todd-On Shem Tov Matthew. A fascinating docu...From Todd-<BR/>On Shem Tov Matthew. A fascinating document. But more tantalizing than definitive. Just too messy. Here's my take although I will continue to study articles on the Shem Tov as they emerge(first looked at this a while ago).<BR/><BR/>1. First all, I accept the views of those scholars who believe there was an original aramaic/hebrew Matthew.<BR/><BR/>2. But that doesn't mean it was preserved and that Shem Tov Matthew is essentially that text. Shem Tov could be translated from Greek or Latin. Or perhaps Shem Tov is derived from a hebrew/aramaic original but its transmission over the centuries was not well done. Because it would have had to preserved in the non-believing Jewish community. Thus, it was hardly a sacred text like the Torah and could have been transcribed carelessly or even polemically over the centuries. Still that could leave some nuggets but we wouldn't really know how to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Note the variant texts in the article by pegg. <BR/><BR/>I basically think we just don't have enough data to say much that is certain - I certainly wouldn't change my beliefs based on this text. It is fascinating though.<BR/><BR/>I'll bring up some other books in this general area that you folks may not have come across.<BR/><BR/>"The Birth of the Synoptics" by Jean Carmignac. Catholic Old Testament Scholar wanders into NT scholarship equipped with in-depth knowledge of Hebrew that NT scholars usually don't have since they are always immersed in Greek. He concludes that all three synoptic gospels were likely originally redacted in hebrew/aramaic. This is based on a linguistic analysis. He also believes that their final redaction was much earlier than the consensus. Its a short little book about 100 pages. Has a baffling typo at beginning and the end. Let me know if you want the correction.<BR/><BR/>Another scholar who posits hebrew/ara is David Flusser, who was an Modern Orthodox Jew (very liberal)who wrote a book simply entitled "Jesus". Great book by the way. What he says is: " My research has led me to the conclusion tha tthe Synoptic Gospels are based upon onre or more non-extant early documents composed by Jesus disciples and the early church in Jerusalem. these texts were originally written in Hebrew. Subsequently, they passed through various stages of redaction. Itis the Greek trnaslation o fthese early Hebrew sources that were employed by our three evangelists." <BR/><BR/>Finally, "The Hebrew Christ" by Claude Tresmontant. A French Catholic historical scholar with a fluency in Hebrew. He attempts to show the underlying Hebrew stratum of not only the synoptic gospels but also John. Interestingly, both he and Flusser appear to agree that Luke (not Matthew!) shows the most signs of being a slavish translation from Hebrew (except for the opening paragraph). Wow. This is a longer book about 300 pages.<BR/><BR/>ToddAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-69114429572511779152008-11-06T17:50:00.000-06:002008-11-06T17:50:00.000-06:00Judah,I wish I could keep my posts as short as you...Judah,<BR/><BR/>I wish I could keep my posts as short as yours. Nice job.<BR/><BR/>Btw, we went through HaYesod with our previous fellowship. There was a good amount of easily understood basic instruction in how Torah can be applied in our lives today.<BR/><BR/>Although we didn't agree with everything, there was much to learn.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-68256794812190488722008-11-06T16:37:00.000-06:002008-11-06T16:37:00.000-06:00Someone at FFOZ doesn't see things precisely as I ...Someone at FFOZ doesn't see things precisely as I see them! Oohhh noooeees!<BR/><BR/>There, I've chimed in. :-)<BR/><BR/>I love FFOZ because their excellence in teaching Torah and Messiah. Not because their views align perfectly with my own. (They don't.)<BR/><BR/>Ding! :-)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-60589391063391678452008-11-06T14:01:00.000-06:002008-11-06T14:01:00.000-06:00I think it would be nice for Judah, as a strong su...I think it would be nice for Judah, as a strong supporter of FFOZ, to chime in on Tim Hegg's view of Shem Tov, Rood and Gordon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-78598627819739160682008-11-06T13:44:00.000-06:002008-11-06T13:44:00.000-06:00Gene,Timm Hegg has no reason to be kind to either ...Gene,<BR/><BR/>Timm Hegg has no reason to be kind to either Michael Rood or Nehemiah Gordon. They challenge the rabbinical authority that FFOZ uses to establish their credibility.<BR/><BR/>Nehemiah Gordon has rejected the rabbis and their teachings where they stray from scripture. That is the essence of the Karaite Jews. Scripture only.<BR/><BR/>So? Is that so bad?<BR/><BR/>Nehemiah also rejects Yeshua as Messiah. Which means that his interpretation of the passage was not intended to try and gain traction with the Messianic believers. He really doesn't care about that.<BR/><BR/>And he certainly is not trying to impress the rabbis. Orthodox or Messianic.<BR/><BR/>Which was one of the main reasons that he was asked and agreed to the task.<BR/><BR/>By the way, FFOZ will not openly embrace the two house position because they see it as a threat to their "Jewish" identity.<BR/><BR/>Although privately Boaz Michael has said that he does not see it as a false doctrine or a deception. He just doesn't see where it fits exactly. Fair enough.<BR/><BR/>A person would do well to study both sides of the Shem Tov translation and interpretation.<BR/><BR/>And it would also be a good idea to ask what problems might occur in scripture if Tim Hegg's interpretation stood as correct.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>EfrayimRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.com