tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post3713679228816757468..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Messiah Journal and Messianic GentilesJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16888936467609233742010-04-02T06:39:34.838-05:002010-04-02T06:39:34.838-05:00To the question of how to refer to the gentile sav...To the question of how to refer to the gentile saved who saw the Great Light. Actually I would not at all mind if you referred to me as Paul did; as the Graft; which is far more sensible when understood from G-ds' perspective and absolutely precisely and wonderfully correct. I have left the gentile church in my sadness at the amount of blindness and false doctrines that so fatigue my heart. It is true what Joseph said that either Witness; the Root or Graft; do not treat each other well; but; Joseph; I think their is a far deeper insight in Pauls'Roman's description of the Jewish root and tree upon which I am grafted; a branch of entirely different and wild fruit but of the same type of salvation drawn by G-d. If only there were more gardener hearts among us gentile saved; for then we would have understood and honored the root whether it acknowledged us or Yeshua Ha-mashiach; and we might have loved Israel for the great service done to not only us but the world through whom Beloved Messiah and Light to the gentiles would come by keeping and passing on to the world His wonderful oracles through the Prophets and Men and Writers of G-d; the Old and New Testaments. There is little else to be said but just gratefullness for so much given!melogardenernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-70864738232077782242010-04-02T06:33:18.304-05:002010-04-02T06:33:18.304-05:00I just stumbled on your site and read your intro a...I just stumbled on your site and read your intro and was touched to say the least. I am a gentile messianic (Christian) and was born into a Catholic background and families. I rejected Catholicsm utterly upon meeting Yeshua and learning that the light to the gentiles, our beloved Yeshua was real. Many years of living, learning and growing have brought me even further away also from false and foolish doctrines and so much of the type of Christianity created by 2000 years of gentile, papal and romish traditions and idolatry that has led to too many Christians taking on men's doctrines and never reading scripture and since I have found so much foolishness, I have slowly withdrawn. But, I have not withdrawn from G-d or His people Jewish and Gentile though I have discovered a deeper peace and wonder by studying His Word instead of men's. So it is not that I want to become Jewish, for that is impossible, because, as Paul said I am a grafted on Gentile who has been grafted onto His wonderful and strong root by Yeshua, onto the true root and tree, the Jews, Judaiism, Salvation, (for salvation is of the Jews), but, it is that I have found my way through the Jews. Everything wonderful and most important in my life (the Messages from our Father and Creator) was taught or related through His Word and all written by the wonderful Jewish Witness to whom I am forever indebted for their perseverence and fortitude in keeping these wonderful gifts for us all and faithfully passing on His oracles to the world.<br /><br />Point is that if you know anything about gardening and which it seems few Christians over the ages have really cared about, we would have all realized and been taught long ago that a grafted on branch to a strong root and tree always retains it's own type fruit and character but never replaces that which succours it. What folly was the blindness and hatred of the gentiles in all these ages to not know that if an apple tree bears one type of red apple is the true tree and root and a branch be it even wild, of a green apple or any other, may be grafted on and be succoured by the true root and tree, but, it will never become red nor has it power to destroy the root or become that root or it destroys itself and this is a marvel to me because the blindness of the gentile graft and saved has wrought much sorrow to Israel when they might have blessed her and succoured her that in fact bore merely a graft, instead. It gives me joy to learn of Israel rather than reject that which I have gained my strength and life from. I know this is long and rambling but it is to say it was nice to meet you in your site. I love Messiah and therefore His children and Witnesses, Israel first and always and the grafted Gentile believers (who saw that light) or whatever we call ourselves secondly, the second witness that long ago stopped embracing the tree and root with the honor and respect of the true brother that was their succour through the wonderful Yeshua that was brought forth through Israel, so, from that grafted branch a tired adoptee, a deeply heartfelt apology that so many generations of us gentile saved have failed to grasp this profound indebtedness and wonder. G-d bless you all on your site for touching my sad and weary heart this night!melogardenernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-87552368950896165062010-03-15T07:15:41.633-05:002010-03-15T07:15:41.633-05:00Eagerly awaiting the comments of Boaz on the topic...Eagerly awaiting the comments of Boaz on the topic of "God-fearers" etc. It has been a long "couple of days". And when will the pdf edition of MJ 103 be available? Eager to continue this discussion. Meanwhile, I continue to read/hear of conversions to Catholicism! People are so wanting to "belong" somewhere and have some kind of "authority" over them, that Catholicism is making inroads. Very troubling to me as a former Catholic.Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-67011964883726663262010-03-12T14:51:19.308-06:002010-03-12T14:51:19.308-06:00Hanok,
Do you know how I know I am a Jew?
Becaus...Hanok,<br /><br />Do you know how I know I am a Jew?<br /><br />Because you say so....That's right!<br />You are labeling us Jews "from the tribe of Judah," don't you? Otherwise you would not have a theology (even if it is as bizarre).<br /><br />So, Please, stop preaching to us and go back to study.<br /><br />FYI, I am Jewish from the tribe of Asher. Go ahead and prove that i am not?Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-9984370874440924702010-03-12T11:28:10.998-06:002010-03-12T11:28:10.998-06:00Hanok, I don't need any genetic testing to kno...Hanok, I don't need any genetic testing to know that I am a Jew. I was born in a Yiddish speaking Jewish family with no Gentiles in sight, and I can trace my Jewish ancestors by name at least 5 generations back WITHOUT ANY RESEARCH (and have pictures of many of them). The town I lived in was heavily Jewish even AFTER most Jews of my town were murdered en mass by Germans in WWII and by Ukrainians in years prior to that, including my own family members. Could it be that some of those Germans or Ukrainians were actually Ephramites/Lost Israelites and didn't know it?Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-45294678901993708132010-03-11T23:27:59.192-06:002010-03-11T23:27:59.192-06:00Dan and Gene,
And what tribes do you both descend...Dan and Gene, <br />And what tribes do you both descend from? Can you prove it? If someone really thinks Jew-dah has greater genetic credibility for their "Hebrew-ness" and claim to any particular tribe, then I recommend some further reading. The tribe of Levi is the only one that has much proof, but it too is hotly debated by Population Geneticists. <br /><br />"Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes"<br />http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerPNAS_2000.pdf <br /><br />"Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome variation<br />in Ashkenazi Jewish and host non-Jewish European populations"<br />http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Behar_contrasting.pdf<br /><br />Jews have many similar genetic-identity problems that 10-Israelites have, especially if you only consider the Darwinian view point of human migration, mutation rates, and radio-metric dating. <br /><br />Antisemitic-types look at the enormous presence of Haplogroup R in the Jewish male population and say "See! Those Jews are fake! They're just a bunch of European converts." But if you take my view, and consider Haplogroup R as a representation of Ephraim... then those "mixed" Jews are actually mixed with various Israelite populations, not non-Israelites. The presence of Haplogroup E is likely not originally Hebrew (but Egyptian/African drift into the population). Haplogroup J is probably more genuinely "Jewish" (in the sense of representing Levi or Judah), but many traditionally non-Jewish populations are also made up of Haplogroup J. So you have to ask, why? Ask a Darwinists, he is going to tell you something that fits his paradigm. Ask someone else who understands exponential mathematics and prophecy, he'll tell you something very different, but also according to his paradigm. Which is truly right though?<br /><br />Israelite and Noahic Haplogroup Hypotheses: http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.htmlHanok ben Isaakhttp://jewsandjoes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-10716275310320656252010-03-08T12:27:58.749-06:002010-03-08T12:27:58.749-06:00>> This journey is full of controversy of wh...>> <i>This journey is full of controversy of who we should be today in a world filled with different catagories than the scriptures discuss. We are still brothers and sisters in Messiah.</i><br /><br />Well said!Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-20375192039936997632010-03-08T09:39:23.778-06:002010-03-08T09:39:23.778-06:00C.F.,
Even though I think that your Two-House the...C.F.,<br /><br />Even though I think that your Two-House theory is fantasy, ultimately this has little to do with the Messianic Judaism I practice or that of every single MJ I know. For me, it's outside of the scope of Messianic Judaism, just another loony theory floating around, similar to say Mormon's belief that they are actually Ephraim and Manasseh and that Native Americans descended from Israelites. Not that I have not seriously researched Two-House claims - I have. But I've done the same for Mormon, British, and Worldwide Church of God Israelisms as well.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-92042806213117850722010-03-08T08:50:41.441-06:002010-03-08T08:50:41.441-06:00The first century believers were never "Chris...The first century believers were never "Chrisitans", they were part of Israel, being grafted in through Yeshua. Judah is right the greater reunion of the two houses have not been fulfilled yet. But, whether we like it or not, we are on a journey to do just that. This journey is full of controversy of who we should be today in a world filled with different catagories than the scriptures discuss. We are still brothers and sisters in Messiah.<br /><br />C.F.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-4875042522999191892010-03-08T08:34:20.199-06:002010-03-08T08:34:20.199-06:00Dan - LOL, agree! (never thought I find myself say...Dan - LOL, agree! (never thought I find myself saying that).<br /><br />Excerpted suggested criteria on how to identify whether or not you might be an "Israelite", according to Yair Davidiy (britam.org/criteria.html):<br /><br />#1. INNER IDENTIFICATION: Do you FEEL Israelite or Jewish or WOULD YOU LIKE to be so considered? <br /><br />#5. PHILO-JUDAIC: Are you pro-Jewish? At the least do you reject anti-Semitism and even FEEL offended by it? Would you LIKE to see a union between "Israel" and Judah? <br /><br />#6 GOOD QUALITIES: Are you merciful, kind, and modest?<br /><br />Looks like it doesn't take a whole lot of evidence to "prove" that one is an Israelite:) In fact, one doesn't need any evidence at all (as long as you are prepared to buy Davidiy's "books", your are family!) It's all about how you feel! Except if you want to claim Israelish descent, and then decide to want to marry a Jew. In that case, Davidiy wants you to stay away (at least until Messiah comes):<br /><br />Question: Can I marry a Jew if I am non-Jewish but Israelite?<br /><br />Answer: No. The Lost Ten tribes had their identity suspended (see Hosea 1:9, Jeremiah 3:8) temporarily in the religious sense in order to release them from the consequences of not keeping the Law and the obligation of keeping it. In the Messianic Era however they will return and things will be as they previously were.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-56158932443372455672010-03-08T01:17:59.650-06:002010-03-08T01:17:59.650-06:00I guess david Horowitz, David Yairi,Abraham feld, ...I guess david Horowitz, David Yairi,Abraham feld, and you, can all tell us exactly from what tribes you all are? <br /><br />Good guessing...LOL!Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-32298887190201255492010-03-07T23:17:10.526-06:002010-03-07T23:17:10.526-06:00Gene,
Who is Batya advocating the replacement of? ...Gene,<br />Who is Batya advocating the replacement of? If Jew-dah is Jew-dah, but Jew-dah is trying to be both Jew-dah and Israel, is it not Jew-dah who is advocating replacement theology? I'm not sure if this is partially why President Truman was surprised to find out the Jewish nation decided to call itself "Israel", but something tells me he was better informed than you and most of the world in this regard. "Judah" or "Judea" would have been more fitting. <br /><br />And this idea that somehow the two houses of Israel did not exist prior to Batya or prior to British-Israelism... is simply absurd. There have been many non-Messianic Jews who advocate the view that "the Jews" do not make up all 12 tribes of Israel... such as the late David Horowitz, Yair Davidiy, and Rabbi Avraham Feld... not to mention Josephus, Rabbi Akiva and Eliezer. Furthermore, Gene, you made a statement regarding Israel never being referred to as "Gentile". Jacob (i.e., Israel) passed his birthright promise of "nations" to Ephraim... and when he did this (prophetically speaking of the Last Days)... he said Ephraim would become the "fullness of the goyim". Is Goyim not frequently translated as "Gentiles"? ...whether correctly or not? <br /><br />The prophet Hosea indicated Israel would become "not a people" and then would later become "a people" again. When has Jew-dah ever ceased to be "a people" who are easily identifiable? They've had difficulties with assimilation, but they have certainly persisted as "a people", unlike Ephraim. Even so, the stirring of Ephraim in the nations to become "a people" again now cannot be blamed on Messianic Judaism. Gene, I certainly agree with you in that regard.Hanok ben Isaakhttp://jewsandjoes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-34627035910972096212010-03-07T12:12:28.636-06:002010-03-07T12:12:28.636-06:00@C.F.,
As I like to say, every Jew and Christian ...@C.F.,<br /><br />As I like to say, every Jew and Christian and everything in between is a believer in 2 House, knowingly or not; it's in the Tenakh that there were 2 houses of Israel. <br /><br />It's a matter of whether you believe the 2 houses have been reunited. <a href="http://www.tnnonline.net/tribnews/israel-mideast/eze_37_15-28/index.html" rel="nofollow">I don't</a>; propecies like Ezekiel 37 havn't happened yet, and I think it's an end-times event.<br /><br />@Maureen, I think FFOZ is sending out Messiah Journal 103 this month, and it contains the "God Fearers" article.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16278415007183308662010-03-07T07:40:47.291-06:002010-03-07T07:40:47.291-06:00How long until this article is available? It is un...How long until this article is available? It is unrealistic to expect people to hold their comments on a front-burner controversy when it is brought up on a blog like this. I wish we had a forum format instead of searching all over the blogosphere for commentary. We are all chomping at the bit to have this discussion. All viewpoints should be welcomed rather than stifled. Iron sharpeneth iron!Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-58818209930070607612010-03-06T21:43:18.587-06:002010-03-06T21:43:18.587-06:00Once again, we are witnessing comments on proposal...Once again, we are witnessing comments on proposals before they have fully been presented. I would urge all who are tempted to comment on anything regarding "God-fearers"? to keep their comments to themselves until the information can adequately be presented and all have read and dissected the relevant data for themselves.<br /><br />As always, our presuppositions begin with whether or not we can consider all those who declare faith in Messiah Yeshua to be fellow brothers and sisters in Him, especially per what we are to have in common as specified in Ephesians 4. <b>This is where we begin, friends!</b><br /><br />Likewise, regardless of which position we take regarding the role of Jewish and non-Jewish Believers in the Body of Messiah, let us think about what it would mean to present those points of view with the Messiah Himself standing in front of us. Much of what I have sene in my interactions with people in the broad Messianic movement over 15 years has yet to really consider this. One's personal needs often seem to take precedence over His accomplishments for us. It is time to put the Lord first, and not our own human interests.J.K. McKeehttp://tnnonline.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-47641113244101858342010-03-06T21:03:12.747-06:002010-03-06T21:03:12.747-06:00Dear C.F. Montgomery
The Two House theology explo...Dear C.F. Montgomery<br /><br />The Two House theology exploits the insecurity of Gentile believers in their identity in Messiah, while breeding resentment against Jewish believers for not accepting Gentiles as fellow Israelites. This particular strain of Replacement Theology has been created and promoted by lady named Batya Wooten (she used to be a member of synagogue a very close MJ rabbi friend of mine, who knows her quite well and even read her very first materials before she went public with them and left Messianic Jewish movement - she's not Jewish, of course). However, very little research is needed to see that her ideas are really nothing new, but simply another repackaging of the good old British Israelism (you should really look it up, it will be very informative).<br /><br />Gentiles are NEVER referred to as "Israel" or "Israelites" in the scripture (which would make them very confusing - and Christianity tried that already, to view themselves as rightful, NEW Israel, and you know how well that turned out).<br /><br />G-d loves ALL nations and in the millennium we can clearly read about the world still divided into nations with Israel being at the center from which Messiah will rule. Egypt is still Egypt, Ethiopia is still Ethiopia, Assyria is still Assyria - and Israel is still Israel - you get the point?<br /><br />Even AFTER the thousand yeas of Messiah's reign, all nations and people will STILL not be blended into one big nation called "Israel"? How do we know that? Scripture, of course (Revelation 21:24):<br /><br />"And the NATIONS of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."<br /><br />Notice it says "nations shall walk"? So, did G-d abolish all the diversity that he created and blended all of us into one nation called Israel? It's not what the scripture say... G-d will bless ALL of the nations.Gene Shomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-73203760986617762532010-03-06T16:10:29.539-06:002010-03-06T16:10:29.539-06:00Regarding Gene's comment:Judah, let's atte...Regarding Gene's comment:Judah, let's attempt to solve this matter here and now - how do you propose we refer to Yeshua's non-Jewish disciples?<br /><br />I would answer Israel, the Whole House of Israel the restored House of David, both Judah and Ephraim coming together through Messiah as one people.<br /><br />When discussing gentiles, James or Ya'acov quotes Amos 9:11-12 and I have added Amos 9:11-15 keeping in the context: Amos 9:11-15 In that day I will raise up the tent of David who is fallen, and close up its breaches, and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old; (12) that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations who are called by my name,” says Yahweh who does this.<br /> (13) “Behold, the days come,” says Yahweh,<br />“that the plowman shall overtake the reaper,<br />and the one treading grapes him who sows seed;<br />and sweet wine will drip from the mountains,<br />and flow from the hills.<br /> (14) I will bring my people Israel back from captivity,<br />and they will rebuild the ruined cities, and inhabit them;<br />and they will plant vineyards, and drink wine from them.<br />They shall also make gardens,<br />and eat their fruit.<br /> (15) I will plant them on their land,<br />and they will no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them,”<br />says Yahweh your God.<br /><br />It is an historical fact that there was one house of Israel that was divided into two houses, the Northern Kingdom known as Ephraim or Israel, and the Southern Kingdom, known as Judah. These two houses had two different punishments from YHWH, two different punishment timetables but in the end would be gathered together again. <br /><br />It is James who qoutes about these gentiles that the fallen house will be restored. Through Messiah it will be done. James quoted rightly.<br /><br />The gentiles who come to Messiah are now former gentiles.<br /><br />C.F. MontgomeryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-79562537236739402482010-03-06T03:17:54.921-06:002010-03-06T03:17:54.921-06:00I found the quote I referenced above. It is from D...I found the quote I referenced above. It is from Daniel K's blog where there is some good discussion:<br /><br />http://christian4moses.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/in-search-of-an-explanation/<br /><br />Shaye Cohen in From the Maccabees to the Mishnah does write that [some?] God-fearers:<br /><br />[...] thinking that the God of the Jews was like the god of other nations, they added him to their pantheon. They observed the Sabbath much as they would the sacred days of other peoples. They frequented the synagogues of the Jews much as they would the temples or ceremonies of other foreign gods.(47)Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-73004834104909976482010-03-04T13:35:41.641-06:002010-03-04T13:35:41.641-06:00Judah,
Shalom to you and thank you for your grac...Judah, <br /><br />Shalom to you and thank you for your gracious and fair critique of issue 103 of Messiah Journal. We pour our heart into every issue--so it is easy to be heavily invested emotionally with what we create. So thank you for being nice!<br /><br />I will take you up on your challenge. Give me a couple days to formulate my thoughts.Boaz Michaelhttp://www.ffoz.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-33437928790551581332010-03-04T08:23:34.644-06:002010-03-04T08:23:34.644-06:00This post indirectly reminded me to order the Vine...This post indirectly reminded me to order the Vine of David Passover Haggadah. So, thanks! :)robyn L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02686363445809233488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-27495420147976232212010-03-04T07:47:00.599-06:002010-03-04T07:47:00.599-06:00I personally find it interesting that there has be...I personally find it interesting that there has been so much dialogue produced on some articles which, unless I missed it, have not yet been released. Judah has given us his impression, but rather than wait to actually read the articles, we're just going to comment on them anyway--site unseen. Funny how things work today!J.K. McKeehttp://tnnonline.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-45656071056899289282010-03-04T07:20:41.254-06:002010-03-04T07:20:41.254-06:00Outstanding analysis, Judah!
I am very troubled w...Outstanding analysis, Judah!<br /><br />I am very troubled when I read comments such as "all believing Gentiles should at least read Torah" or "Gentile believers should go back to the [antinomian] churches." How does this line up with Matthew 5:19?<br /><br />I read somewhere that "God-fearers" were those who added the God of Israel to their pantheon of gods. So this suggested designation does not have the best of connotations. Maybe this is the real problem in Messianic congregations today. Many (both Jewish and Gentile) are only partially converted to true, born-again faith in Messiah Yeshua, forsaking all and trusting Him. They cling to their traditions, whether Rabbinic, Catholic, or Protestant and try to add elements of all of these traditions to the mix called Messianic. What is needed is a true restoration of "the faith once delivered" (Jude 3).<br /><br />My present concern is that in all the confusion, Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are gaining converts! People with Messianic and Jewish backgrounds are being drawn to the mysticism, liturgy, and authoritative guidance. Somehow they are beguiled or intellectually convinced by elaborate philosophical rhetoric that practices such as venerating icons and sacramental Eucharistic salvation are in line with Scripture. Trust in tradition and "apostolic succession" is trumping trust in the clear word of God!<br /><br />I hope we get our act together soon. Precious souls are at stake.Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16757431376848635832010-03-04T07:13:40.144-06:002010-03-04T07:13:40.144-06:00"so how come everytime you are challenged to ..."so how come everytime you are challenged to answer to scriptures on any issue you raised here, we never hear from you?"<br /><br />Yeah, OK Dan... tisk tisk... didn't your mother teach you a thing or two about telling fibs?Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-82011032259371406092010-03-04T00:59:48.144-06:002010-03-04T00:59:48.144-06:00Nice speach Gene,
so how come everytime you are c...Nice speach Gene,<br /><br />so how come everytime you are challenged to answer to scriptures on any issue you raised here, we never hear from you?<br /><br />Is this the method they teach in the MJTI? (Yah, I know you are not a member,but you could have fooled all of us any time you being the first to jump to defend them.....LOL!Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-1783801934967513112010-03-03T23:49:07.498-06:002010-03-03T23:49:07.498-06:00"You're right that the Jew/gentile divisi..."You're right that the Jew/gentile divisions in the Messianic movement have mirrored -- inverted -- the problem the Church has faced."<br /><br />Judah, it's absolutely NOTHING like the problems Jews faced in the church, not even in the inverted way. However, just like in the first century, Jewish believers are today once again the minority in the Messianic Jewish movement(and not the "majority" as the first commenter claimed - what?) - you can jump in here Dan with you assertion that we shouldn't be called "Jewish". Even though we have been very welcoming to non-Jewish believers in our midst, today our responsibility to lead our own congregations in the way that we find relevant to the vision and task G-d gave us is being challenged as racist apartheid (by some). However, we resist and will continue to resist folks who to try to assimilate us by seeking to erase any distinctions between Jews and Gentiles, those who seek to water-down and minimize our Jewish identity in Messiah, those who wish to thrust their pet identity theologies on us.<br /><br />We also reject the blame that we Messianic Jews somehow "caused" the Two-House movement to sprout or the One-Law theology to take hold among the Gentiles by not acknowledging Gentiles as de-facto Jews or Israelites (which they are not) with full Torah obligations (which they do not have) - instead as Gentile brothers and sisters with their own G-d-given identity and unique relationship to Torah. These theologies or those from which they sprung have existed among Gentile Christians long before Messianic Judaism ever became a reality. These accusations are a red herring, and they are based on good old fashion envy and insecurity.<br /><br />What is even more ironic is that people who are complaining the loudest are actually NOT part of the mainstream Messianic Jewish movement and many never were to begin with, but have separated themselves into their own "independent messianic" nearly 100% non-Jewish congregations and now speak from outside.<br /><br />May G-d continue to guide and protect Messianic Judaism so that we can proclaim His Messiah to our people and also to the nations, and may He guide and protect our Christian brothers and sisters in churches into a closer relationship with their Jewish siblings.Gene Shomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.com