tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post3005239257063377522..comments2023-08-16T07:20:09.921-05:00Comments on Kineti L'Tziyon קנאתי לציון: Follow-up on religious approvalJudah Gabriel Himangohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-18528619927847112132010-02-08T09:56:08.009-06:002010-02-08T09:56:08.009-06:00Joseph has my concerns down pat.
I think it would...Joseph has my concerns down pat.<br /><br />I think it would be best, now that we've all expressed opinions on it, to wait and read the paper first hand. I am going to keep quiet about this until I read the paper for myself. All I have right now are 2nd hand quotes from Derek and the Yinon folks.<br /><br />After I read the paper, we'll revisit this issue.Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-90677201096122868522010-02-07T05:32:56.632-06:002010-02-07T05:32:56.632-06:00Will be interesting to see how MJTI/UMJC respond t...Will be interesting to see how MJTI/UMJC respond to what you've said, Dan.Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-43626087765169696042010-02-06T22:39:04.671-06:002010-02-06T22:39:04.671-06:00My point was that Messianic Judaism UMJC, and Kinz...My point was that Messianic Judaism UMJC, and Kinzer style already settle the Gentile problem UNILATERAY, not bilateraly with their 2003's infamous definition of MJ. They solved the Gentile problem just there and then. Everything else is just shmaltz they are trying to smear on our faces.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-29433359616170948702010-02-06T03:58:44.932-06:002010-02-06T03:58:44.932-06:00Maybe the scroll has been revealed to him :)Maybe the scroll has been revealed to him :)Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-11389374151861923292010-02-05T20:59:39.992-06:002010-02-05T20:59:39.992-06:00Joseph:
My point was that Dan Ben Zvi hasn't ...Joseph:<br /><br />My point was that Dan Ben Zvi hasn't read the paper. What, you think he's psychic? :-)<br /><br />Derekderek4messiah.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02116000293798063018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-17021039750321345532010-02-05T19:00:09.703-06:002010-02-05T19:00:09.703-06:00Surely Kinzer's paper is open to interpretatio...Surely Kinzer's paper is open to interpretation?<br /><br />Derek may have one interpretation of it and Dan another, both thinking they're right. Kinzer himself may have an intepretation of his own paper, but it doesn't mean his interpretation is the correct one.<br /><br />I guess we can wait till it comes out and judge for ourselves, as Derek says.<br /><br />My thoughts so far are this:<br /><br />Kinzer expresses an admirable desire not to be in constant conflict with the mainstream Jewish community, and he is right to be positive. All of us with ahavas yisrael would back Kinzer's sentiments.<br /><br />However, how does Kinzer hopes to achieve this communion with the mainstream Jewish community? <br /><br />This is what concerns people. <br /><br />Judah worries about the theological implications - that the MJTI will end up compromising on the divinity of Yeshua. <br /><br />I worry about the danger of ecumenicalism here - does Kinzer consider Messianic Judaism one of many Judaisms, or the only true Judaism?<br /><br />I'm worried about some of the sociological implications - will we speak up against persecution and defamation when our Israeli brothers and sisters are hurt, or will we be reluctant to in case we harm our image or damage our relationship with the Jewish establishment?Josephhttp://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-54516646317343619642010-02-05T17:36:07.246-06:002010-02-05T17:36:07.246-06:00Dan Ben Zvi:
Well, I just spent six days with Mar...Dan Ben Zvi:<br /><br />Well, I just spent six days with Mark Kinzer, read his paper in its entirety twice, and blogged about it giving it even more though. I will let the blog readers decide who knows better what Kinzer means: me or you (who did not spend any time with Kinzer or read his paper).<br /><br />Derek Lemanderek4messiah.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02116000293798063018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-4281387837117155692010-02-05T14:47:51.365-06:002010-02-05T14:47:51.365-06:00Derek,
The "border" you are painting is...Derek,<br /><br />The "border" you are painting is false. Kinzer does not see MJ as the Church, he sees it as Judaism. His border is between MJ wanting to become a part of Judaism and Judaism that want no part of MJ.<br /><br />Either you are ignorant of Kinzer's points, or you are delibertly trying to deceive.Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-65499900381871320162010-02-05T09:53:56.512-06:002010-02-05T09:53:56.512-06:00Um...wait a minute. I got stuck at "a Messian...Um...wait a minute. I got stuck at "a Messianic Jewish Rabbi is formally converting to Messianic Judaism?" How does that work.<br /><br />In 1st Century Messianism (if that's a word), the only people "converting" were the pagan Gentiles to faith in the One true God through Messiah Yeshua. <br /><br />Today, if you are a believer in Yeshua, let's say from a traditional Christian setting, you don't really "convert" to anything. I <i>suppose</i> you could consider a traditional Jewish person's acceptance of Yeshua as "converting", but I'd argue that a Jew accepting the Jewish Messiah isn't converting to anything. How does a Jew convert to Judaism?<br /><br />Sorry...I get stuck on issues like these. I think we make our faith more complicated than it really is.Jameshttp://shema-yisrael.org/blogspot/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-32093211162622007782010-02-05T07:25:40.003-06:002010-02-05T07:25:40.003-06:00Tandi:
Scriptural prophecy does not give us dates...Tandi:<br /><br />Scriptural prophecy does not give us dates. I hope the days of Messiah are upon us before much longer, but 2 Thessalonians addresses this. We are to live and plan as though the parousia is far off while hoping it is near.<br /><br />Derek Lemanderek4messiah.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02116000293798063018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16700138399328339092010-02-05T05:55:52.278-06:002010-02-05T05:55:52.278-06:00"Scripture has no such model of separate-but-..."Scripture has no such model of separate-but-equal ekklesia comprised of Jews over here, gentiles over there.<br /><br />Compromise will only get worse if we make high priority our acceptance by the Jewish world. Those compromises will only dilute our purpose: the restoration of all Israel to God through Messiah."<br /><br />Very much in agreement!Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-90829938923385241512010-02-05T05:48:13.573-06:002010-02-05T05:48:13.573-06:00Within 50 years Yeshua will straighten this all ou...Within 50 years Yeshua will straighten this all out Himself. His Kingdom will have come by then according to Bible prophecy. (Actually within half of that time by Scriptural reckoning.) What are we doing to get ourselves ready for that day? What if this IS the last generation! Would that make a difference in the goals and objectives of Messianic Judaism? Should we not be coming together rather than building barriers to fellowship one with another?Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-12266596522064345192010-02-04T20:55:26.351-06:002010-02-04T20:55:26.351-06:00Kinzer's paper, which will soon be posted on t...Kinzer's paper, which will soon be posted on the Hashivenu website (maybe a week or two delay) says this:<br /><br />"We exist as a movement in part to protest this negative border. Such a protest constitutes a crucial element in our prophetic calling. Moreover, our long-term viability depends on the success of this protest."<br /><br />The border he means is that separating the potential harmony and mutual blessing between the Church and the Jewish people. The Church maintains a border saying that Torah and Jewish life are foreign to faith in Jesus and Judaism maintains a border saying that belief in Yeshua as divine Messiah is idolatry.<br /><br />Sociologically, Messianic Judaism will not survive several generations as a banned little community. Now, Christians practicing Jewish roots may go on for quite some time.<br /><br />Great leaders do consider the human side of their endeavors. It is not sufficient to say, "If we just believe, God will do it for us." The apostles did not think that way. They obeyed God and created realities on earth as well as heaven. That is all I am saying we must be about. You actually agree with me more than you know, but, IMO, you are sensitive to any suggestion that Messianic Jews belong with the Jewish people. I think you see MJ as a microcosm of the church and imagine it can survive all on its own. I don't. I believe we need to be in right relationship with the Church and the Jewish people. I believe we are a tiny movement and if cut off from the world we will fizzle.<br /><br />If I am wrong, then please tell me how in 50 years MJ will be thriving without a good relationship with the broader Jewish community. Are there any Jews in your vision for 50 years down the road? My guess is that they will all be Christian Jews if MJ is still a marginal, confused movement.<br /><br />Derek Lemanderek4messiah.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02116000293798063018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-42629820645235224062010-02-04T17:07:28.142-06:002010-02-04T17:07:28.142-06:00Judah, to answer your reply to me from the last bl...Judah, to answer your reply to me from the last blog post:<br /><br />Judah,<br /><br />The exalted Son of Yah is spoken of in the Zohar by the exact title "Son of Yah", he is further identified as Metatron (meaning "Our Keeper" in Aramaic), he is the highest in Heaven besides the throne of HaShem.<br /><br />So I would disagree that one would have to deny anything about the Son of Yah if they were to take hold compeltely of Judaism. I would agree, though, that there is confusion in the Jewish world about the above-mentioned, and at the same time, most Messianics don't know that the above-mentioned exists.A. Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17290668816169371637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-23392408599690994142010-02-04T08:11:46.385-06:002010-02-04T08:11:46.385-06:00"This is where I saw this heading 3 years ago..."This is where I saw this heading 3 years ago and was condemned as anti-Semitic for saying it. "<br /><br />You are still an anti-semite, Banner Kidd - nothing changed from three years ago.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-21961582914267531152010-02-04T07:44:32.459-06:002010-02-04T07:44:32.459-06:00This is where I saw this heading 3 years ago and w...This is where I saw this heading 3 years ago and was condemned as anti-Semitic for saying it. It us as Yeshua said , "you make them twice the sons of he'll as you are. It comes down to who's voice you will hear and who you join yourself to and follow; Judaism or Messiah according to His Word and by the power of His indwelling Spirit? Proselytizing to rabbinic authority, sad to say, is alive and gaining lawless strength. People are being conditioned and prepared to accept the coming man of lawlessness. It is Torah alone apart from man's additions and subtractons that bring saving and sanctifying faith. If we hear His Voice and obey His commandments we will be HIS special possession above all people, whether Jew or Gentile; joined to Messiah Yeshua, not joined to rabbinic Israel.Banner Kiddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578111747056637435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-34922033296345376882010-02-03T17:07:45.764-06:002010-02-03T17:07:45.764-06:00My take on another aspect of this:
http://roshpina...My take on another aspect of this:<br />http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/neo-hasidism-in-messianic-judaism/Joseph (formerly known as Yeze)http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-45858718519607334042010-02-03T15:32:23.827-06:002010-02-03T15:32:23.827-06:00Monique,
You misunderstood my concern. Nevermind ...Monique,<br /><br />You misunderstood my concern. Nevermind about that, though, let me just ask you straight out:<br /><br /><b>Did Kinzer say this?</b> If we don't gain acceptance by the Jewish world, the Messianic movement will perish.<br /><br />If Leman misquoted or misunderstood Kinzer, my concern disappears, and I'd jump on a new post and say, <i>"Hooray! I was mistaken about all this."</i>Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-16090746656605689432010-02-03T15:10:17.406-06:002010-02-03T15:10:17.406-06:00Gene, I apologize if I spoke out of place about yo...Gene, I apologize if I spoke out of place about you. But have you honestly looked at some of the books (less than $5) I have reccomended you purchase (such as those dealing with women in ministry or the New Perspective on Paul)? Other than on different blogs, we have not really discussed anything.<br /><br />As I have said elsewhere, every person has a freewill to believe what they want. And there are various streams out there under the lablel "Messianic." I think Messianic Judaism will achieve a great deal in the future. But, time alone will determine if we are able to achieve all of the mission of God, or only some of it.<br /><br />Again, have a blessed day! I myself have to attend to other matters.J.K. McKeehttp://tnnonline.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-64180429665959559472010-02-03T15:02:01.167-06:002010-02-03T15:02:01.167-06:00"I have often referred you to additional reso..."I have often referred you to additional resources or scholarship--which I know you just disregard. That is something that rigid people have a tendency to do"<br /><br />J.K. McKee, over the past two years I've examined more Two-House and One-Law theological papers, resources, faqs, arguments, counterarguments, counter-counterarguements than most people I know and then some. Not only that, I've even read probably half of your website (admittedly, some of the enormously large portions you've penned I'v had to skim through, and only viewed some of the videos, because I only have so much time to spend on this stuff).<br /><br />So, your assumption of me not examining the issues is not valid to say the least. In fact, I spend most of my days going through various theological materials and discussing them with others. This I've done for the past 15 years.<br /><br />Besides all that, who offers their own research as proof? Give me independent third parties.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-82890167903731592712010-02-03T14:59:06.659-06:002010-02-03T14:59:06.659-06:00Judah, you're grasping at straws here, having ...Judah, you're grasping at straws here, having created a supposed controversy out of a second-hand paraphrase of a twenty page paper.<br /><br />You seem to be under the impression that MJTI and Hashivenu are dangling on the razor's edge of abandoning faith in Yeshua's deity. A "fly on the wall" experience at Hashivenu this week would have quelled those fears.<br /><br />You might have been surprised to hear just how consistently and vocally the scholars in attendance affirmed their faith the deity of Yeshua. You might have been impressed by the rigorous research presented demonstrating just how much support they see for this concept in the Hebrew Scriptures, New Testament, and other Jewish literature. In fact, they see the task of persuading their fellow Jews of the legitimacy of a divine, incarnate Messiah as a critical part of their life's work.<br /><br />Was not this very task undertaken by Yeshua's own disciples?Moniquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01627334083605634588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-23924454660557782962010-02-03T14:44:37.653-06:002010-02-03T14:44:37.653-06:00Gene, I recognize that as humans we all have limit...Gene, I recognize that as humans we all have limitations. I am just as susceptible as the next person. But the two of us have a track record of examining various issues--where I have often referred you to additional resources or scholarship--which I know you just disregard. That is something that rigid people have a tendency to do, and they are littered all over the Messianic movement. It is even found among a few people I know with theological degrees.<br /><br />I hope the Lord blesses you greatly today, in all your endeavors to serve Him!J.K. McKeehttp://tnnonline.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-78756793463718006422010-02-03T14:37:56.724-06:002010-02-03T14:37:56.724-06:00"Yet, your common attitude is the same I have..."Yet, your common attitude is the same I have witnessed among many Two-House and One Law people as well, as much as you dislike them."<br /><br />J.K. McKee, I am not sure that you've realized that yet, but you've set yourself up as an example of theological perfection and tolerance, elitism that views just about everybody else as country bumpkins (fundies), including folks in your own movement. As a Two-House advocate with the biggest Two-House resource site on the web are you above "personal prejudice and opinion"?<br /><br />"No real concern for greater human wholeness."<br /><br />You don't know me or my work, and yet you feel free to make such a statement.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-85558738299039701982010-02-03T14:28:13.111-06:002010-02-03T14:28:13.111-06:00Gene, you often epitomize the kind of attitude tha...Gene, you often epitomize the kind of attitude that should not make up the future of the Messianic movement--I have certainly not been impressed.<br /><br />Yet, your common attitude is the same I have witnessed among many Two-House and One Law people as well, as much as you dislike them. Rigidity and an inability to really dissect issues from the Scriptures is seen. Personal prejudice and opinion guides the discussion, with self-interest more important than the spiritual needs of others. No real concern for greater human wholeness.<br /><br />Don't worry, God is bigger than all of us.J.K. McKeehttp://tnnonline.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6836835.post-26054530239588864902010-02-03T14:18:52.859-06:002010-02-03T14:18:52.859-06:00"Gene, spoken like a true fundie!"
J.K...."Gene, spoken like a true fundie!"<br /><br />J.K. McKee, such personal characterizations seem out of character for you, I am a bit surprised, frankly.Gene Shlomovichhttp://www.bethavinu.orgnoreply@blogger.com