The Triumphant Case of Ami Ortiz

Hat tip to Rosh Pina for the heads up on the Ortiz case.

I’m a few days late to the chase, but – praise God – there is new good news in the case of Ami Ortiz, the 15 year old Messianic Israeli who was nearly killed in a bomb sent to his family’s house.

AmiBefore AmiAfter
15 year old Israeli Messianic before and after the bombing.

The good news in the case: A suspect has been arrested, and the police may have a confession from the suspect. I’ll let Ami’s mother Leah tell the story:

We have incredible news and answer to prayer. A suspect has been arrested in our case! Actually he was arrested about 2 weeks ago, but there has been a continuing gag order placed on the story. Therefore we cannot tell you all the details because we don't have them yet. To be noted that we didn't hear the news from the police, but from our lawyer and media sources, and today the American Embassy called us to tell us that there was an arrest! We are dual American and Israeli citizens, and I thanked them for having the consideration to inform us.


Concerning the suspect, we only know that he is an Orthodox Jew, originally from the U.S. He was living in a settlement in our area, is married, the father of four children, and is now being held by the secret services because the case is wider than we expected. We know that weapons and explosive material were found in his home, and that there is a lot of hard evidence against him. We also know that there are those in Ariel who are under intense investigation as well, but we're not sure if any other arrests have been made. We also know that his lawyer went before the judge to ask for the suspect to be released on bail, and he was refused because of the amount of evidence against him in his file. We expect that the gag order will be lifted maybe on Wednesday or Thursday, and then we will know more details and the press will be all over the story for a few days.


GREAT RELIEF

Our family has experienced great relief. We are happy that we don't have to look over our shoulder, we don't have to check our car before we get into it, and we can open our front door with more confidence. Before this we knew there was a murderer roaming free, perhaps standing in line with us in the post office, or continuing to keep surveillance on our house. We also feel sorrow for the suspect who has so ruined his life, the lives of his family, and has brought a bad name on the people of Israel. We can testify that the nation as a whole condemns this man's actions. We have received telephone calls and communications from Israelis throughout this past year and a half, from every town, city, and village in Israel. They have been secular, orthodox and ultra orthodox Jews, and the message has been the same - shock, grief and anger over the incident, and the need to let us know that they condemn this vicious act. They all blessed Ami with wishes for a full recovery, and hopes that he would succeed in life and fulfil his dreams.


PRAY FOR WISDOM


Please pray for us as the media interviews begin, both domestic and international, for wisdom and for the name of Yeshua to be lifted up. Please pray for Ami, as he goes back to the moment and shares it publically. He took the news very coolly. I don't think he wants to let his heart get involved in any way, which I understand. Right now he is with all the 11th graders in his school in the northern Negev, in a pre-army type of experience called in Hebrew the "gadna" which means "youth battalions". It's kind of a light basic training simulation with many lectures from the army about what they can expect, and what their possibilities are.
Psalm 27:1-6 sums it all up-


The LORD is my light and my salvation-
whom shall I fear?

The LORD is the stronghold of my life-
of whom shall I be afraid?

When evil men advance against me
to devour my flesh,

when my enemies and my foes attack me,
they will stumble and fall.

Though an army besiege me,
my heart will not fear;

though war break out against me,
even then will I be confident.

One thing I ask of the LORD,
this is what I seek:

that I may dwell in the house of the LORD
all the days of my life,

to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD
and to seek him in his temple.

For in the day of trouble
he will keep me safe in his dwelling;

he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle
and set me high upon a rock.

Then my head will be exalted
above the enemies who surround me;

at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy;
I will sing and make music to the LORD.

Thank you for standing with us as you have helped us to pray this through, and for continuing to be with us in prayer.

In the Messiah,
Leah

This is huge news.

First, it confirms the suspicion of anti-missionary vigilante violence carried out by ultra-Orthodox Shamer groups like Yad L’achim.

Second, vindication! The police were initially sitting on their hands, dismissing this as a accidental firecracker accident (!), and the media chimed in with agreement, excusing the violence by claiming Messianic Jews are part of a cult. For example, here’s an original article from the left-leaning, secular Haaretz newspaper that all but excused the bombing:

Police are investigating the possibility that the explosion occurred while the boy was opening a Purim gift basket. Police reportedly believe the blast was caused by some sort of firecracker used during Purim celebrations.

The Parents of the victim are members of the Messianic Jews movement, which the police classify as a cult. The boy's father is considered to be one of the movement's leaders.

After previous attempts to harm the family, a security camera was installed at the family's home. The police were checking the footage to see whether the explosion was documented by the cameras. The police emphasized that there was no proof to support the theory that the explosion was deliberate and malicious.

Fine blog readers, notice the non-sequitur arguments used here: “This cult family has been targeted by attacks before. Therefore, it’s probably a firecracker accident.” (What kind of journalism and police detective work is this?!)

And the article failed to mention that the family’s security cameras caught a man in Orthodox Jewish garb dropping off the bomb at the family home. Yet the police, and apparently the author of this Haaretz article, cite no proof of malicious intent.

This highlights the extreme anti-Messianic bias witnessed in the Israeli media: Messianics are portrayed as a cult, violence against us is denied or excused, and finally dismissed. No one wants to be on the side of the ugly Messianics.

A great goodness has come out of this!

Things are changing. With the Jerusalem Institute of Justice standing up in court on behalf of persecuted Messianics, and the Israeli courts cracking down on evil vigilante anti-missionary Shamer groups, we’ve seen a turn in the Israeli media, with a few lone voices speaking up for the plight of Messianic Jews, praise God.

Additionally, many Jews in the Israeli Orthodox community are distancing themselves from these shameful anti-missionary groups. The Ami Ortiz family reports that when Ami was hospitalized after the bombing, many from the surrounding Orthodox Jewish communities came to visit Ami, and denounced and apologized for whomever carried out this bombing.

In word, the Orthodox communities were denouncing vigilante anti-missionary groups, whether knowingly or not. Praise God!

As Leah Ortiz put it,

We can testify that the nation as a whole condemns this man's actions. We have received telephone calls and communications from Israelis throughout this past year and a half, from every town, city, and village in Israel. They have been secular, orthodox and ultra orthodox Jews, and the message has been the same - shock, grief and anger over the incident, and the need to let us know that they condemn this vicious act.

Praise God that secular, Orthodox, and Ultra Orthodox Jews have all condemned this shameful act! I believe God has his hand on this situation: a terrible tragedy – the attempted murder of a family because of their belief in Messiah – has been turned into a great witness, changing the hearts of many. Praise God!

Look out, anti-missionaries, God is at work. When Messiah comes, I hope he finds you loving his flock, instead of persecuting it. And even should you continue persecuting us in your stubbornness, God is going to use it for his glory, just as he has in the triumphant case of Ami Ortiz.

36 comments:

  1. Thank you, thank you for this update! I was following this story from the beginning but had lost contact with updates. I remember when I first heard about this, I was incredulous that it could possibly have been perpetrated by an Orthodox Jew. I could not understand why it was even suspected.

    Did Ami make a full recovery?

    I just found his website....

    http://amiortiz.com/

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  2. It is sad an Orthodox Jew carried this out. It highlights the evil of certain anti-missionary organizations. But praise God that Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews across Israel have condemned the act.

    Regarding his recovery, my understanding is, yes, he's made a full recovery. Leah Ortiz mentioned in the above text,

    Right now [Ami] is with all the 11th graders in his school in the northern Negev, in a pre-army type of experience called in Hebrew the "gadna" which means "youth battalions". It's kind of a light basic training simulation with many lectures from the army about what they can expect, and what their possibilities are.

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  3. There is a video on Ami's website with Ami himself speaking of his feelings/injuries, along with those who were impacted and how fearful they have been without an arrest (until now). Such a brave family to endure all they have gone through. Very happy that Ami has recovered so well, though not without continuing challenges.

    See Haman's Visit (Documentary) here:

    http://amiortiz.com/documentary.cfm

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  4. They probably wanted to use the Blood for the Matzot, no?

    This is the typical but modernized "Blood Libel" known to be put on the Jews for years (by Christians, Muslims and looks like now maybe also by the Messianic Community).


    Other Facts:
    Consider that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Ekrima Said Sabri, issued a fatwa (religious order) in the mid-1990s calling to kill Ortiz.

    "The fatwa was even published in the Al Quds newspaper," Ortiz told The Post. "I got a call from the U.S. Embassy asking me to keep a low profile." He added that he had been beaten by Palestinians from eastern Jerusalem.

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  5. Summary:

    -Security cameras catch man in Orthodox garb dropping off bomb at house of Messianic Jew.

    -Bomb almost kills 15 year old Jewish boy.

    -Israeli police find and arrest the man, discover guns and weapons in his home, is associated with anti-missionary groups.

    -Due to overwhelming evidence against him, the Israeli courts refuse him bail.

    -The man confesses to the crime.

    You know, they say a good indicator of insanity is denial of reality.

    I'm just praising our God that Jews across Israel, from every town and village, from secular to Ultra-Orthodox, has condemned this act. Praise God!

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  6. They probably wanted to use the Blood for the Matzot, no?

    So the Jewish state, and some Messianic Jewish bloggers, identify one man (who happens to be Jewish) as the potential perpetrator of the Ortiz bomb, and you take it as a blood libel??? Why do you think Judah went to lengths to point out that the overwhelming majority of Jews and Israelis condemn this violence?

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  7. Lets try that again without assuming things and writing them as facts.

    Summary:

    -Security *camera* catch man in Orthodox garb dropping off package (of Mishloach Manot) at house of Messianic Jew. (note: this doesn't prove that this person was indeed an Orthodox Jew)

    -That (Mishloach Manot) package is said to have a bomb in it (we don't know if it was put in there before or after it was dropped off and we don't know if the person that delivered it know about the bomb)

    -Bomb almost kills a 15 year old Jewish boy.

    -Israeli police find and arrest "a" man, they also discover guns and weapons in his home, this man they say is also associated with a counter-missionary group. (this doesn't prove that he made the bomb, it assumes. and it doesn't prove that he was sent by a counter-missionary group.)

    -Due to (overwhelming) evidence against him or due to pressure from _someone_, the Israeli courts refuse him bail.

    -The man *may* have confessed to the crime.

    You know, they say a good indicator of insanity is denial of reality. (You should define how you come and say something is a *reality*)


    I condemned this act by whoever did it, be it Jew/Orthodox Jew, Christian/Messianic or Muslim.

    -------
    Do you really accuse Jews for being so stupid? By claiming that this person sent a bomb personally while dressed in Orthodox garb? (such a person must be insane)

    Maybe the person that delivered the package was just dropping it off for someone else.

    You quoted "After previous attempts to harm the family" by whom? what kind of harm are we talking about?


    I know you would like to have found the the person that did this and it would be even better for you if you can connect that man to a counter-missionary group to put the blame on. But that isn't an excuses for jumping to a conclusion without sufficient/proper evidence.

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  8. YesJewish,

    I'm glad you condemn this. That makes me believe there is hope for you yet.

    At what point do you end the delusion and concede this man is guilty? His conviction by the Israeli courts? His confession of the crime?

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  9. Judah, You already came to the conclusion and you accuse this man for it without much evidence.

    I guess I am not surprised since I see that with even less evidence you believe that a person can be G-d. You might have just had a revelation last night, who knows.

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  10. Without much evidence? YesJewish, I cannot take you seriously when you say such things. Remember, I didn't come to this conclusion: the Israeli police did, and now the Israeli courts are denying him bail.

    Also, you didn't answer my question.

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  11. "Remember, I didn't come to this conclusion: the Israeli police did, and now the Israeli courts are denying him bail. "

    Judah, you do realize that this man is also being accused of two other unrelated crimes: attempted murder of a leftist historian and murder of two gays? Whether he is also officially accused of being involved in Ami's attempted murder has not been stated by the authorities (no information has been released) and will be determined once more evidence is released. But I will not HOPE that he is and get all excited. So far his connection to that particular crime (he did NOT ALREADY confessed to Ami's crime as you've claimed) is not conclusive. How about waiting a bit for the justice system do it its work, OK? If the man is proven guilty of the crime - Ami will get his justice soon enough.

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  12. Yeah, the post I linked to said as much. The man may have confessed to the crime - we're not sure yet. Details were pulled from the web after a gag order.

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  13. "I guess I am not surprised since I see that with even less evidence you believe that a person can be G-d."

    "Yes Jewish"... you got it wrong. We believe that G-d can take on appearance [or flesh] of a person, BUT NOT the other way around. A very, very important difference. No person can become G-d, but G-d can do anything he wants to do (he's not asking your permission, that's for sure). A good anti-missionary would know the theology of his target audience - otherwise you're here just to stir things up.

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  14. Hi, I am from Cider team that owns WPF/Silverlight designer.

    Thanks for your comment at Rico's blog. Will you please take a look at my response at http://blogs.msdn.com/ricom/archive/2009/10/28/vs2010-beta2-performance-and-other-issues.aspx#9915163?

    Thanks again.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Zhanbo, totally off-topic! :-) But thanks for following up.

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  16. @Gene
    I know a bit about Christian theology and as I wrote, you believe that a person can be G-d (I didn't write can become G-d)

    Lets see why the theology that "G-d can take on appearance [or flesh] of a person" is not possible in the Jewish understanding of the concept of G-d (or theology). (I won't go into the concept of the trinity.)

    From the Bible:
    Numbers 23:19 - "G-d is not a man..."
    Malachi 3:6 - "For I, the L-rd, have not changed;"

    From here we can see that G-d isn't a man and that G-d doesn't change.

    One of the main concept of G-d in Judaism is
    G-d wasn't created or that G-d isn't a created being.

    So something that *was* created (and transformation is a kind of creation) by definition can't be the G-d of Israel.


    Now it comes to the dispute between the followers of Arius and the followers of St. Alexander of Alexandria at the First Council of Nicaea.
    Was Jesus/Yeshua begotten or not?
    But that doesn't really help since you believe that Jesus/Yeshua was transformed into a human being.

    (Even though the concept of more then one thing being uncreated isn't possible)


    @Judah Check your question, your wrote "delusion". while I am waiting to see what the court of law has to say but you already came to the conclusion.

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  17. "So something that *was* created (and transformation is a kind of creation) by definition can't be the G-d of Israel."

    "Yes Jewish"... Yeshua WAS NOT created. He always was, is and will be. Yochanonan/John calls him the Word of G-d (or Torah) emanated from HaShem and that took-on flesh and lived among men.

    "But that doesn't really help since you believe that Jesus/Yeshua was transformed into a human being."

    He was not "transformed into a human being." He took on flesh like one would put on an article of clothing if you will, while staying exactly who He always was. Transformation means "change", but in case of Yeshua it was "incarnation".

    "Numbers 23:19 - "G-d is not a man..."
    Malachi 3:6 - "For I, the L-rd, have not changed;"

    G-d is not a man, true. I don't think you'll find anybody here arguing with that. Angels are not "men" either, but they can APPEAR as such (is this not true?)! G-d has not changed either. He's still the same G-d He always was and will be. His essence has not changed, but it does not mean He has to ask our permission about what He should wear today or what appearance He takes on.

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  18. You say that G-d got dressed up like a Man, right?

    There are a few problems here.
    1. (Imagining G-d can do this) If G-d got dressed up then the dress isn't G-d (since the dress is a creation) which in this case is a human dress with the name Yeshua/Jesus, rendering that human not G-d (since it is a creation).

    2. Imagine a Computer Screen with the picture of that Computer Screen on the screen. Is that image of the screen the screen? is it even part of the screen? Can the real Screen enter into the Screen and still be the screen? etc...

    or.

    You see a picture of you on the computer screen. Is that picture you? no it is just a picture of you. Is there a way that you can be displayed on the screen and that thing that is displayed should really be you? Can you enter the screen?

    This link will give you a small view of what I mean The Isifier

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  19. "There are a few problems here.
    1. (Imagining G-d can do this)"

    Give G-d a bit more credit, will ya:

    "Genesis 18:14 "Is anything too difficult for the L-RD?"

    "Jeremiah 32:17 'Ah L-rd G-D! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You..."


    "If G-d got dressed up then the dress isn't G-d (since the dress is a creation) which in this case is a human dress with the name Yeshua/Jesus, rendering that human not G-d (since it is a creation)."

    Hold on, by your reasoning, if I put on a wool sweater that makes me change into a sheep, and I am no longer human I was before I put it on? I think you're putting HaShem into a box of your limited human reasoning. We Jews who believe in Yeshua believe that THE Messiah comes directly from G-d and will have HaShem's essence, and will not be merely a human being. You may disagree, but we will all find out the truth in the end.

    Also, do you think G-d can't wear his creation? Really? Who made the tifillin He puts on?

    "Imagine a Computer Screen with the picture of that Computer Screen on the screen. Is that image of the screen the screen? is it even part of the screen? Can the real Screen enter into the Screen and still be the screen? etc.."

    Again, just refer to my quotes of Genesis and Jeremiah for the answer to this and many other (though not all) questions about Yeshua.

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  20. You are mistranslating the Torah (Check it in Hebrew) Genesis 18:14 says "Is anything hidden from the L-rd,..."
    and again in Jeremiah 32:17 "Ho! O L-rd G-d, behold, You have made the heaven and the earth by Your great power and Your outstretched arm, and nothing is hidden from You,"
    And as seen in other places in the Torah. (Deu 17:8 If a matter eludes you in judgment)

    "if I put on a wool sweater" It doesn't make me a wool sweater and neither does the wool sweater become human/me. What I am pointing out is that Yeshua/Jesus was human flesh (all agree) now if you say that that was just his physical clothing doesn't change the "physical clothing" in any sense of still being a creation (the clothing is still physical and sill something that was created).
    (while you can say that G-d within him didn't change but then what makes him different then all other people which are also part of G-d)

    "Who made the tifillin G-d puts on."
    That is a metaphor. and so is that Moses saw G-d. (Moses did not see G-d physically since G-d isn't something physical) but it means that Moses comprehended the greatness of G-d more then any other Human being.


    ----
    G-d created the world within Him since G-d is infinite in every way possible so nothing can exist outside of G-d. (we are all G-d's imagination in a sense).
    ---
    If you are imaging yourself is that person in your imagination you? Can you physically enter your imagination
    ----
    If G-d can do everything.
    Can G-d create something outside of Himself?
    Can G-d create another G-d? (remember who the Jews call G-d)
    Can G-d Kill Himself?
    Can G-d create a rock that is too heavy for G-d to lift? (the classical)
    Can G-d *create* something, that after G-d *created* it, isn't a *created* thing but existed forever?

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  21. Yes Jewish,

    You're correct, HaShem cannot be a man, never was, never will be be.

    However, and as you would agree, HaShem created the malakhim to do his services. In Shemoth 23 we see the Malakh HaShem who guides the people of Israel. Rashi tells us that Hhaza"l knows this particular malakh as Metatron. The text says "My Name is in him"; in other words, the authority of HaShem is in him.

    This is why HaShem appeared to Avraham as three men--but it wasn't really HaShem (it can't be), instead they were malakhim (not the "trinity" either, hahaha) who HaShem sent in His authority to appear to Avraham.

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  22. "You are mistranslating the Torah (Check it in Hebrew) Genesis 18:14 says "Is anything hidden from the L-rd,..."

    Says YOU. Not only do many Jewish translations translate this as "too hard" (ex: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0118.htm and http://hareidi.org/bible/Genesis18.htm#14), even Rashi's own interpretation of the word as "hidden" essentially carries the same meaning as "too hard" (or impossible):

    Rashi: "Is anything too hidden and separated and concealed from Me [to prevent Me] from doing My will?"

    Not only that, even the context supports the "too difficult" interpretation. This is about Sarah laughing about, what she thought as, impossibility of conception at such an advanced age.

    ""Who made the tefillin G-d puts on." That is a metaphor."

    The point is, whether metaphorical or not, even the imagined tefillin would qualify as G-d's creation (that he wears) - especially since you claim that everything is G-d's imagination anyway.

    "If you are imaging yourself is that person in your imagination you? Can you physically enter your imagination."

    I think that your personal beliefs that this world and all of us are just G-d's imagination (or that he is somehow limited from entering it) border on Hinduism. In any case, G-d enters his "imagination" all of the time.

    The scriptures say that G-d presence is said to have indwelled the BeiS Hamikdash(made with human hands, of all things), it indewelled the visible fire and visible cloud as Israelites traveled through the desert. But you will tell me that for send his Torah to indwell something made of flesh is impossible. Think about it.

    "Can G-d create something outside of Himself?
    Can G-d create another G-d? (remember who the Jews call G-d)
    Can G-d Kill Himself?
    Can G-d create a rock that is too heavy for G-d to lift? (the classical)
    Can G-d *create* something, that after G-d *created* it, isn't a *created* thing but existed forever?"

    These statements are logically contradictory, in the vein of asking a question "can G-d make square circles?". Of course, these illogical statements have nothing whatever to do with HaShem choosing to send His Torah / Israel Messiah and King clothed in human flesh.

    Since you are a mere human, like the rest of us here, and know only a fraction about G-d's nature and His reality, putting HaShem in your own little box is futile. Reread Brit Hadasha and perhaps HaShem will open your eyes to the true Messiah.

    Blessings...

    Question: Yes Jewish, please tell us something about yourself: were you born Jewish or a convert, what Jewish denomination are you part of. Thanks.

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  23. Baruch Hashem, Yaakov Teitel has confessed and has been arrested.

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  24. @Aharon
    Malach/Malak means messenger, and angel which is a messenger of G-d.
    It is not possible to see G-d (He isn't anything physical, has no color or shape, etc...).
    G-d is only known by the things He does.

    @Gene
    Speaking about the verses I pointed out your *mistranslation* which still stands (as the Targum and Rashi render it as to mean *hidden*).
    It wasn't to show you that G-d can't do everything it was to show you the mistranslation of the Hebrew Tanach. (you should get an ArtScroll of a Judaica Press Chumash)

    Oh yes the tefillin of G-d would also be a creation of G-d.

    "In any case, G-d enters his "imagination" all of the time."

    Nice fact (from where do you get that). and G-d can enter his imagination (just like we can) but that thing that enters isn't in any way G-d. Just like you can enter your imagination but that *you* that is in your imagination isn't *you*.

    Again the "presence" of G-d isn't G-d and the "fire" and the "cloud" in the desert isn't G-d since they are all created things. (but with your logic their isn't just a 3 godhead but many times more then that)

    ---
    G-d can't create a G-d since it would be a created thing which by definition isn't G-d.
    So with this in mind G-d can't make flesh to be G-d neither can he make clouds, fire, water, sun, moon or angel etc.. to be G-d.

    Welcome to the religion of Abraham!

    Think about what Abraham would say if someone would come to him and tell him that a person is G-d.
    ----
    I was born as an Orthodox Jew and I am still an Orthodox Jew :)

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  25. "Again the "presence" of G-d isn't G-d and the "fire" and the "cloud" in the desert isn't G-d since they are all created things. (but with your logic their isn't just a 3 godhead but many times more then that)"

    Where did I says that those things were G-d? The fire and the cloud are the physical created things by which G-d chose to make his presence known. So it is with Yeshua the King of Israel. Oh, and I don't believe in "3 godheads". G-d is one. His Torah (embodied in Yeshua) is not one of this heads - rather it's an inseparable part of HaShem.

    "Think about what Abraham would say if someone would come to him and tell him that a person is G-d."

    I don't have to think about it. I KNOW what he thought, because a reliable source already let me know. This is our Maschiah said about what Abraham thought concerning his appearance:

    "Your father Avraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." (Yochanan/John 8:56)

    "I was born as an Orthodox Jew and I am still an Orthodox Jew :)"

    Good for you. G-d willing, some day G-d will open your eyes to the truth of the Messiah, as he has for many of our brothers already. All in his timing.

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  26. Yeshua/Jesus was NEVER the King of Israel!

    As I said "Think about what Abraham would say if someone would come to him and tell him that a person is G-d."

    The Greek Testament isn't a reliable source (there are many inconsistencies in there)

    And by the way you have no proof that G-d was embodied in Jesus/Yeshua more then in any other person is (whatever that really means)

    Just like we don't have to believe in the fire, clouds, etc... that the Torah says G-d was in them so to their is no reason to believe in a person claiming that G-d is in him or that he is G-d... even if the Torah would say so about a person (and it doesn't) it would be prohibited to worship such a person/thing and it would be called Idolatry by all means. (since anything physical isn't G-d and may not be worshiped).

    G-d willing, some day G-d will open your eyes to the truth.

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  27. "Yeshua/Jesus was NEVER the King of Israel!"

    Someday you WILL meet him in person.

    ""As I said "Think about what Abraham would say if someone would come to him and tell him that a person is G-d.""

    I think that Abraham would recognize whether or not someone is from G-d and his claims are true. Just as he was able to recognize the three angels/messengers as not being mere humans.

    "The Greek Testament isn't a reliable source (there are many inconsistencies in there)" As an antique document it's reliable enough - we have thousands of copies from antiquity that have been cross-checked by many scholars. Of course, some people claim that Torah itself and the rest of the Tanakh has too many inconsistencies to be relied on: http://www.heavingdeadcats.com/2008/11/11/50-old-testament-inconsistencies/ . So what, you don't believe their claims because you know better, right?

    "And by the way you have no proof that G-d was embodied in Jesus/Yeshua more then in any other person is (whatever that really means)"

    You and I have no proof that Moshe existed at all or that G-d actually spoken to him and through him - all we know is what we read in the Torah and traditions passed on by our fathers. Many (if not most) Jews today ignore and dismiss Moshe and his claims just as easily as you dismiss Yeshua and his claims.

    "since anything physical isn't G-d and may not be worshiped."

    Agreed. Yeshua physical body in which he lived on earth is not G-d and it's not to be worshiped. So, the accusation of idolatry is baseless. We worship G-d our Father that has sent his living Torah (and part of HaShem) Yeshua the Messiah and King of Israel to teach us our Father's ways and inaugurate (and finalize when he returns) the Renewed Covenant spoken of in Jeremiah.

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  28. >> Someday you WILL meet him in person.

    Amein!

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  29. @Gene

    The Gospel of John is admitted by Christian scholars to be an unhistorical document. (what again did you quote about Abraham from the Book of John?)

    ----------
    ""You and I have no proof that Moshe existed at all or that G-d actually spoken to him and through him""

    Here is your proof about Jesus/Yeshua - http://is.gd/4KKEA

    By now I already know that when Christians/Messinaics have no proof they try to claim that Jews also have no proof, it is in fact JUST AN EXCUSE for not having proof and you feel better when you think that the others don't either have proof.

    Interesting site - http://www.exodusconspiracy.com (Oh maybe Jews do have some proofs)

    ----------
    Their are 4 types of claims one can make about something that happened (or a claim to an historical event)

    1. One Person saw something.
    2. A small group of people saw something (2-1000)
    3. A big group of people saw something (1000-50,000)
    4. A whole nation saw something.

    #1 type claim can't be proved in any way and is unreliable and isn't valid as historical facts (even though many things that people believe is based on such claims). This is indeed the category that ALL religions have regarding prophecy (Christianity with Mary/Miriam, Islam with Muhammad, etc...) except for Judaism (Which claim a mass revelation to all the Israelites on Mount Sinai).

    --
    #2 and #3 kind of claims are most common for historical claims that people can agree as historical facts. (Most of US history is of this level)
    But these claims have the negative that it is possible for one to come about 100 years later and claim a level 3 and 4 occurrence even though he does not have any eye witnesses or children of the eye witnesses for his story (and that story in fact might have never happened) and therefore doesn't really prove much. (oh like the story of the Resurrection of Jesus/Yeshua said to be seen by 500 people)

    --
    But then their is the level #4 kind of claim that is not only the strongest type of historical fact but also impossible to be fabricated and it is the strongest of all claims.
    If someone would come to a whole nation and make a fabricated claim that some story happened to the whole nation a few (or even many) generations earlier. All the people would tell him that they never heard of this story from their parents (especially if this is of great importance) and would disregard it and the story would die as fast as it came (or even better would never be claimed). But if a story is really true and a whole nation did see such an event like what happened on Mount Sinai where the whole Israelite nation (all the people) had a revelation from G-d it would be impossible to forget such a great event.

    This is not about the story told in the Torah and we just accept it as fact. For all our holidays that we have and all the things that we do and say every day to remember these great events that happened to our great grand parents when they left Egypt in an unbroken chain and with no weak links in them. Is the greatest of evidence.

    Shalom and may G-d show you the right path.

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  30. "The Gospel of John is admitted by Christian scholars to be an unhistorical document...."

    Some Jewish "scholars" claim that Moshe never existed: http://www.jewlicious.com/2007/01/moses-never-existed/ - will you believe them also?

    "Here is your proof about Jesus/Yeshua - http://is.gd/4KKEA"

    Is this the "proof?":) This Mr. Marshall J. Gauvin whom you used to set me straight and show me that Yeshua never existed also said the following:

    "The commandments which the Bible says were written by the finger of God are wholly worthless; for those that have value, no other authorship than that of man is claimed.......whole story of Moses's dealings with God on Mount Sinai is a MYTH."

    (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/heart_of_the_bible.html)

    What do you think about that? Next time try to find a bit more reliable sources that don't cancel out your own arguments and faith.

    "Shalom and may G-d show you the right path."

    Thanks, same to you.

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  31. First of all that the Israelites were at Mount Sinai and that they all had a revelation is an Historical Fact since the whole nation of Israel saw it and such a claim can't enter history only if it really happened. (NO other religion can claim or do claim such an event.)

    Second The whole nation of Israel saw the miracles done in Egypt and a it is recorded by Egyptians and found in Egypt written around that time.

    Third is the fact that many many Jewish people can track their family genealogy going back to the 12 Tribes of Israel and to Moses and Aharon without missing any generation and with great amount of detail and corroboration.

    It's the inability or the unwillingness to see fact from fiction.

    ---
    Deu 4:27 And the L-rd will scatter you among the peoples, and you will remain few in number among the nations to where the L-rd will lead you.
    ...

    --The following passages is talking about the future generation--
    NO other religion can claim or do claim such an event.

    Deu 4:32 For ask now regarding the early days that were before you, since the day that G-d created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other end of the heavens, whether there was anything like this great thing, or was the likes of it heard?.
    Deu 4:33 Did ever a people hear G-d's voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as *you* have heard, and live?
    Deu 4:34 Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the L-rd your G-d did for you in Egypt before *your* eyes?
    Deu 4:35 You have been shown, in order to know that the L-rd He is G-d; there is none else besides Him.


    This can't be written by a later generation that did not hear and see all these things.
    And if this was made up then what makes that person that made it up so sure that no one else can claim such a story.
    --------

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  32. BS"D

    A message from deep in my heart.

    Oh to the Children of Israel that have you forsaken the G-d of Israel and his Torah and Mitzvot and accepted the theologies of other nations that tried to force us into believing in their gods. So many of our people have been killed in order not to worship the idols of the Romans and Christians yet you fall into their trap and become blinded by them so far that you don't even want to open your eyes to see the true light/truth that is held only by the Jewish people that have it through tradition through an unbroken chain till Moses on mount Sinai.

    Wakeup, wakeup, open you eyes O Children of Israel.

    Time has come to throw away these foreign theologies that was not known to the Children of Israel but was forced upon us by our enemies with the power of the sword and deception.

    It is always late but never too late to return to the one and only G-d the G-d of Israel.

    Wakeup, wakeup O Children of Israel.

    Hear, O Israel: The L-rd is our G-d; the L-rd is one.
    -----

    Please I plead of you go out and check your Jewish heritage with an open mind, try to find the true light that will last you and your children an eternity. Read and learn the Torah with it's real meanings with an open mind and clear heart from a source that has it through Jewish Tradition to find the absolute truth and meaning in this world.

    --Yes Jewish

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  33. "Please I plead of you go out and check your Jewish heritage with an open mind, try to find the true light that will last you and your children an eternity."

    Yes Jewish, thank you for the heartfelt plea. I share your love for our people. My mind is very open (but not too open - I don't wish that my brain fall out or garbage get in). I attend a non-Messianic Orthodox chul weekly with other Jews who happen to believe that Yeshua. I observe the mitzvot to the best of my abilities, and constantly strive to learn about as well as to live out my Judaism, with love for HaShem and for other Jews. I encourage secular Jews to take up all the mitzvot. I worship the G-d of Israel, G-d of our fathers.

    All this does not prevent me from embracing the One whom I consider the Messiah of Israel. My faith did not come from gentiles or any pagans - but I am aware that over the centuries many non-Jews who claimed to be followers of Yeshua have totally misrepresented him to the point of nonrecognition - they made him into their own image. I personally suffered hatred as a Jew many times in my lifetime.

    The first Jews who followed Yeshua hated idolatry with every fiber of their being. They were jealous for Torah. However, our nation's leadership has rejected our Messiah - and we have paid a very heavy price for this blindness, with almost two thousands years of galut. Our sages say that G-d threw us out of our Land and allowed our Temple to be destroyed by the Gentiles because of "baseless hatred". Yeshua would agree with them when he quoted Psalm 109:3 in Yochanan/John 15:25 concerning himself:

    "But this comes to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in Torah, "They hated me without a cause.""

    Shalom.

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